RE: Oleg's Dating Pic


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m0ntels
October 17, 2005, 04:26 PM
I was thinking of the last picture posted with the dad polishing his rifles and talking about being careful dating his daughter. That got me to thinking...

Assuming they were both of an appropriate age, what would you or your sig other do/feel/say if you discovered the date had a CCW on them, and up until now, no one knew about it. For example, daughter's date takes off his coat when they come over to meet you, and he accidently flashes a pistol butt and doesnt notice, but you do. Would you mention it? Would you toss him out? Would you see it as repsonsibility or a sign of no good, etc?

I figure I already know how daddy would feel if his son brought home a girl that was packing. :D

Randy

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ID_shooting
October 17, 2005, 04:35 PM
That is a good one. I guess it would matter if he was some gangbanger wanna be or thug looking person. Hopfully my daughter won't go for guys like that, but you never know. I know we aren't supposed to judge people by thier appearance. But my reaction would certianly differ depending of my opinion of him.

Technosavant
October 17, 2005, 04:37 PM
Not having daughters yet myself, I can't say for certain, but this is how I would plan to handle it:

1) Comment on the gun. Ascertain his theory of self-defense, and make PERFECTLY clear that I expect him to use any and every means at his disposal to ensure my daughter's safety. I also expect her safety to be placed above his own.

2) Talk guns. Set up a time to go shooting together. Get to know the lad; if everything else works out, you might be spending quite a bit more time together.

However, if the boy is not legal to carry, she doesn't leave the house.

Jeeper
October 17, 2005, 04:40 PM
Ask if he has a permit and if not she isnt going anywhere and the cops are getting called.

Declaration Day
October 17, 2005, 05:13 PM
If someone my daughter was dating had a pistol, I'd ask to see his CCW. If he has one, I will feel more at ease knowing the background check he has passed.

As for appearance, my daughters are not to bring home anyone dressed like a thug or a bum. I agree that judging by appearance is not always right.

I see it this way: As young people, we tend to express ourselves visually, through the clothes we wear, jewelry, hair color, etc. Speaking from experience, I thought that my appearance defined who and what I was. As I grew older, I realized that my personality and my values defined who I was.

Over the years I have "conformed" my attire (a sin according to kids) to the point that I blend in with the crowd. Since my appearance does not define me, I would be foolish to allow it to interfere with my career and other, more important aspects of life.

If the young man my daughter brings home is mature, he'll have already figured this out.

So I say, no thugs, hoodlums, or bums!

cordex
October 17, 2005, 05:25 PM
From the other side ...
When I was dating my wife, I went over to her parent's house fairly often. One day she decided she wanted to trim my hair. I took off my overshirt but left on my undershirt. My 1911 was very plainly exposed. No one said a thing.

Some weeks later, I had taken my gun off and wrapped it in my jacket which I hid (or so I thought) in an out of the way corner of the room behind a sofa and later that evening I went into the kitchen for something. My soon-to-be mother-in-law decided to be helpful and hang up my jacket. As she picked the coat up, I heard a clunk. I walked back into the room and she handed the holstered pistol to me and with an embarassed look on her face said "Did I hurt it?"

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 05:29 PM
Im 19 (20 in three day's) so Im a little young for daughter's....let alone one's ready to date lol.

But that said, I have never dressed like a hoodlom, a bum, or wore my pant's 3/4 of the way down my ass. Frankly I have alway's founf that the most idiotic style ever. So yes, it is possible to grow up and have common sense while your at it and not dress like a thug.

If you pull up dressed like I thug. I will assume you are a thug. Or at the very least a wanna be thug, in which case you are even more dangerous cause your more likly to do something stupid to prove yourself. You dress baggy that's fine. But you dress like a thug you don't date my daughter. You can't respect her or my family enough to dress like a sensable human being sorry, bye bye. Come back when you gain some sense. On the same token, if your car sound's like a diseased fly (sounding like a dragster is acceptable on a case by case basis) or I can hear your crap music from three blocks away and it rattle's the glassware in the cabinate's you can turn your little punk butt around and be gone. I knwo you can be the most well meaning and mannered guy around. But not a risk Im taking and reguardless you need to grow a little sense.

As to the gun. Based on thing's as a whole I will ask to see his permit, he doesn't have one he can go. If he does we will have a nice long predate talk. Based on how that talk goes he can either leave with or without my daughter and more or less of my respect.

Least that's a priliminary current plan and thought lol

Missashot
October 17, 2005, 05:35 PM
I think that if a young man wants to take my daughter out (MANY years from now), he will take enough time to dress nicely. She deserves enough respect from her date, for him to look decent (as she will not be leaving my home dressed like trash either). :neener: As far as the gun goes, If he is legal, it just saves me the trouble of doing my own background check. Also I will be expecting him to watch out for her if he is legally carrying. (That is unless I decide to go along too!):evil:

Jac
October 17, 2005, 05:44 PM
I'm surprised how many here wouldn't let their daughter(s) go out with someone who is carrying "illegaly".

I thought folks at THR believed in the inalienable right to keep and bear arms. As long as the kid's not a punk, or wannabe thug.

Also... background check?!? A lot of people here carry concealed because they know it is up to them to protect themselves, yet they'll trust the cops to make sure their daughter's date is a good guy?:scrutiny:

nfl1990
October 17, 2005, 05:53 PM
One thing you folks have not mentioned is that if you wish to ask to see a permit, (this is espeicially important if you think he is illeagal) it would be prudent for your SO to know and be prepared, and for you to be as well, (if he really is a thug it may prompt a violent reaction out of him)
Also I'd be pissed he didn't ask permission to carry on MY property, (I know this is law in CT and I'm not sure where else), but laws aside I consider it common courtesy to ask.

Declaration Day
October 17, 2005, 05:57 PM
Also... background check?!? A lot of people here carry concealed because they know it is up to them to protect themselves, yet they'll trust the cops to make sure their daughter's date is a good guy?:scrutiny:

I wouldn't take the background check as gospel, but it would put my mind at ease somewhat, while I make my own assessment of the young man, as I do with everybody I meet.

reagansquad
October 17, 2005, 06:09 PM
I'm not planning on having kids for a while, but I imagine I'd talk to him about it... I might also invite him to the range. What a good chance to grill them though!

exoduster18
October 17, 2005, 06:09 PM
Don't be surprised that many people wouldn't let their daughters go out with someone carrying illegally....they are being sensible in that way. As parents they would want a young suitor to show that he was responsible in that he obtained the CCW license and exercised that right carefully. That shows the girl's parents that he is somewhat responsible and not a total idiot.

Now, as for my own daughter (that I don't have, I'm am to young to be a father, I am in college and will have kids when I have settled down and decided I'm good and ready to have a family, besides I'm only 18), if he does have the permit then yes she may go, but if not, then forget it. If you can't be a responsible gun owner, I have to assume that you can't properly handle, so then if you can't treat a gun like a responsible person then why would I think that you could be respectful and responsible towards my daughter?

Jac
October 17, 2005, 06:18 PM
Don't be surprised that many people wouldn't let their daughters go out with someone carrying illegally....they are being sensible in that way. As parents they would want a young suitor to show that he was responsible in that he obtained the CCW license and exercised that right carefully. That shows the girl's parents that he is somewhat responsible and not a total idiot.

Now, as for my own daughter (that I don't have, I'm am to young to be a father, I am in college and will have kids when I have settled down and decided I'm good and ready to have a family, besides I'm only 18), if he does have the permit then yes she may go, but if not, then forget it. If you can't be a responsible gun owner, I have to assume that you can't properly handle, so then if you can't treat a gun like a responsible person then why would I think that you could be respectful and responsible towards my daughter?
What does getting a government permit have to do with being responsible?

jpIII
October 17, 2005, 06:20 PM
I'm surprised how many here wouldn't let their daughter(s) go out with someone who is carrying "illegaly".

I too am surprised after some of the comments I've read on this board.

Suppose he is a well dressed, well mannered young man, and when asked "Do you have a CCW?" His answer is a very polite, intelligent answer along the lines of...

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

To all those who said "no permit, no date with daughter", would you still hold that opinion?

JPIII

Jac
October 17, 2005, 06:21 PM
I too am surprised after some of the comments I've read on this board.

Suppose he is a well dressed, well mannered young man, and when asked "Do you have a CCW?" His answer is a very polite, intelligent answer along the lines of...

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

To all those who said "no permit, no date with daughter", would you still hold that opinion?

JPIII
+1

Well said!:cool:

Gordon Fink
October 17, 2005, 06:22 PM
If the young man in question were under 21 years old, he could only be carrying “illegally.” If he and my daughter were over the age of majority, I wouldn’t have much say in the matter anyway.

~G. Fink

pax
October 17, 2005, 06:26 PM
If any of my sons bring home a girl who doesn't know how to shoot, I intend to teach her myself. ;)

pax

jojo
October 17, 2005, 06:27 PM
I have a 17 year old daughter and there is no permit that is going to tell me anything.
I'll have a nice sit down with the young man (and have) and that is where the only assesment that I care about (other than my sons and wifes) will come from.
I know several people that have carry permits, and I would never have given them one, they are irresponsible, drink and drive, and on I imagine.

Decleration Day said it right.

jojo

Missashot
October 17, 2005, 06:36 PM
I'm surprised how many here wouldn't let their daughter(s) go out with someone who is carrying "illegaly".

I thought folks at THR believed in the inalienable right to keep and bear arms. As long as the kid's not a punk, or wannabe thug.

Also... background check?!? A lot of people here carry concealed because they know it is up to them to protect themselves, yet they'll trust the cops to make sure their daughter's date is a good guy?

What would be a good reason for wanting my daughter to go out with a guy who carries illegally? :banghead: If he can't complete the requirements to carry legally, and still chooses to carry, then he has no respect for the law and his gun-totin' idea may end up getting my daughter in trouble if something were to happen. :mad: Depending on the situation.

I think that most people here are trying to push to get more freedom to carry. Not to give Bureaucrats reason to cut what few freedoms that we do have. By condoning illegal acts such as illegally carrying a gun. (Which is a personal choice, but, as a parent, I dont' want it around my daughter.)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was joking about the back ground check. But make no mistake, I am a pretty good judge of character and if given any reason, I will snoop. But that is just me. If some hypothetical young man doesn't like it, he can carry his gun over to someone else's home and go out with their daughter. It is, after all, a free world. :)

jamz
October 17, 2005, 06:58 PM
Doubly confusing as a parent if you live in Vermont or Alaska. ;)

Can I see your...um...driver's license?



When my daughter enters dating heart attack territory, I assume I'll have some other cues as to whether the guy is safe with a gun or not. Some cues will be visual, some verbal, etc.

-James

countertop
October 17, 2005, 06:59 PM
I have an uncle who used to make sure the reloading press was going when his daughter's dates showed up. He would great them, gun on his hip, and taken them back to the reloading bench where he talked to them, while reloading, before letting them go out on the date.

Ryder
October 17, 2005, 07:00 PM
I have 3 grandkids through my daughter. She turned out to be very conservative. Surprised me. I have no idea if her husband even owns a gun. Not my business to control others.

I only got my first carry permit a few years ago but owned pistols for over 30 years. The parents of the girls I dated were (and still are) a non-issue. Not my business to be controlled by others.

jpIII
October 17, 2005, 07:02 PM
no takers on my hypothetical?

come on,...just picture it.

Clean cut guy and his response is something like this

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

exoduster18
October 17, 2005, 07:21 PM
It shows....at least to me anyways....that even though he may not agree with the laws.....he still follows them. That, in my mind, is sufficient to show that he semi-respects those in power above him.....I may not agree with the law but I will still tolerate it if it is tolerable.....just as the young gentleman should that wishes to take my daughter out. It shows that he was willing to follow the "paper trail" to get his CCW. That he was willing to go through the hoops and understand the laws governing it.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 07:25 PM
So I am to send my daughter into a situation where she could be arrested and possibly even charged as an accesory, because he wants to make a political stand?

Sorry, being political is fine and dandy. But doing it through illegal mean's does nothing but add fuel to the fire and give them more reason to take away more gun right's. Does there come a time for armed resistence? Sure, when all else fail's, but are we anywhere near that time? No, far, far from it. Illgal activity of that nature will do nothing but get you thrown in jail and get the guy that attacked you off without any charge's.

m0ntels
October 17, 2005, 07:50 PM
Maybe I should answer my own question too ;)

I'm 25 now and dont have any kids of my own, but I do think I am pretty responsible and a good judge of character. I got my permit finally last year. Before that, I may have possibly had my pistol on me the few occassions I was required to go the hour drive to Central and South Philadelphia. Basically that was it besides traveling with both guns and ammo not loaded but together in the car which I didnt even think was illegal until later on. So I have been responsible with non-permitted situations in the past. I knew it wasnt the best idea, but neither is being in a really scary part of town with a pair of boots as my best defense. Would I count that as a strike against a daughter's date? Hell yes. Even if the guy was totally responsible, he still would be risking my daughter's well-being by making her part of his civil disobedience.

Another thing that was somewhat touched on...his legal carry. To get my carry permit, I had to have a fresh $20 bill, a drivers license, and the ability to sign my name. My permit is not even a plastic card. It comes in the mail as a xerox copy of my drivers license and says carry license or something like that on it. It isnt even laminated as it comes--I did that own my own. My dad has shot guns all his life and has a permit...and I refuse to shoot with him he scares me so much. I probably would ask for a permit first, and then say I'm holding his gun. He better not be taking her anywhere where it is likely he needs it on a first date, or any date I know about. The second date would be with me and him at the range so I can see his ability to be responsible with his weapon. And to see what else he has :neener:

As for his attire, I wear what I call "work clothes." I look acceptable, but I dont really own too much fancy stuff. I work on cars by day, and guns by night. I have a few nice shirts and pants, but not many. First date I always try to look my best, but in the end, I probably look like I am going to work. I've never tried to look like a punk or gangster, but I have hung out with a few. I dont hang out with creeps, they just sometimes look like them. Whatever they wanna wear is fine with me, just so long as it stays on! Look gangsta if you want if you stay in good areas where you wont be mistaken for a real one. And for God's sake, pull up them pants at least or I will do it for you. I wouldnt care if she was 30, I dont want to think about my kid seeing any guy's drawers :p

The having unannounced guns in other people's homes is another good one. My usual buddy is a airweight snub, and honestly, I sometimes forget about it. I still have friends in college towns, off campus, and I dont even think about it until after I'm already there. They know I shoot, but I dont think many know I carry. Most arent interested in guns, so I dont mention it. Do I think it's rude? Sorta. I make sure it is always secured and safe. The one time it really kicked in that maybe I should ask is when I stayed with my friend and her 2 and 3 yr old daughters. Daddy doesnt live there and is a bit stalkerish. I wasnt doing anything naughty anyway, but I could not see him buying that if he decided to show up. But the first night I was there, I got concerned with the kids climbing all over me and jumping on me and stuff kids do. It's a weird feeling the first time you notice a loaded chamber is a few inches from a kid's head. The rest of the stay I kept it locked up in my room. I asked her at the end of the weekend if she'd be upset if I had brought my gun. She told me she was honestly surprised that I didnt have it with me. She said she knew me well enough to know I would be safe with it, and that she'd actually feel good about it. Honesty is probably the best policy, but I do brace myself for weird looks or extensive questioning and anti slogan shouting whenever I tell someone I'm prepared for anything.

Randy

Thumper
October 17, 2005, 07:56 PM
My ex girlfriend's dad started cleaning his G19 at the dinner table while I was waiting for her on our second date. I asked if he had any .45 brushes and would he mind if I joined him.

She's hitched now, but he and I are still buddies.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 08:01 PM
It shows....at least to me anyways....that even though he may not agree with the laws.....he still follows them. That, in my mind, is sufficient to show that he semi-respects those in power above him.....I may not agree with the law but I will still tolerate it if it is tolerable.....just as the young gentleman should that wishes to take my daughter out. It shows that he was willing to follow the "paper trail" to get his CCW. That he was willing to go through the hoops and understand the laws governing it.
As is your right.

I just don't understand why it would be such a big deal. If you wanted to ascertain whether or not he was responsible, yes, I respect that. I just don't see what a government permit has to do with that. Perhaps I'm just coming at this from a libertarian standpoint, whereas you are coming at it from the standpoint of there being laws that should be obeyed. <shrug>

Personally, as long as he's responsible in all other aspects of his life, I'd rather my (hypothetical) daughter's date have a healthy disrespect for government authority.:cool:

junyo
October 17, 2005, 08:09 PM
"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"Whatever Poindexter... :D

Though it's my announced and intended intention to scare the bejebers out of any young man that comes calling, by the time my daughter is dating someone old enough to be walking around strapped a) I've hopefully given her the tools to be a good judge of character, b) taught her how to shoot, and c) bought her a big enough purse for her gun and a couple of extra mags. I pity the boy that chooses to get rowdy with her.

Vitamin G
October 17, 2005, 08:20 PM
Well... (Here goes)

I'm 25, and have a very respectable job counseling teenagers who have been adjudicated delinquent and have serious drug and alcohol addiction problems. I just graduated with my Master's degree in counseling, and have a monday-friday job in a residential treatment facility. You'd be hard pressed to find me in a suit, tie, or even a button down shirt unless its got ridiculous hawaiian patterns. I'm a big fan of cargo shorts and a Tshirt. Oversized also, because i always carry a surefire flashlight.

Here's a kicker...
I have a 44waist, and a 28leg. Since i usually have to buy 44x32 pants and hem them, my pants look poofier than Eminem's unless I special order them, which i can't afford as a counselor/social worker. You'd DEFINATELY think I was a thug gangsta dropout with minimal change in my dress. In fact, I think all i'd have to do is undo my Rafter-S sharkskin belt a couple notches, and I'd have the perfect rear-shelf pant hang.

And in addition...
I look about 19 when I shave.

As if that wasn't enough...
I've been at this job for five years, when I was still a senior in my undergrad, working on my BA in psych and criminal justice. I've picked up alot of "street" terminology and "urban inflection" in my normal speech. I can speak the Queen's English when I'm subpoenaed to court, or writing a treatment plan, but I'm just as at home in hardcore ebonics, which i personally feel is a crock. Once i got into a foodfight with my sister because she ended a sentance in a preposition at the dinner table. Yes, I can be a grammar nazi. My father, my sister, and I, all took at least three years of latin at one point or another.

My point...
I usually dress rather shabby (I'm usually in at least one "physical intervention" (breaking up a fight) per week)
My normal mode of speech is rather "urban" (Frankly, alot of these teens can't understand me when I speak proper english)
...And i consider myself the upstanding citizen.




Cliffnotes : I look and dress like a standard teenage idiot, and I'm quite the upstanding citizen, and if i may say so, rather impressive for my age.

exoduster18
October 17, 2005, 08:22 PM
I am coming from the standpoint that laws [I]should[I] be obeyed......if if makes sense....I myself have already posted that will follow and tolerate it, if it is indeed well defined and clearly understood, will abide by it. I can understand the certain disrespect of some governmental laws and agencies (cough, BATFE, cough) but they are still in place to be abided by. It is also your right to try and ascertain the responsibility of such a gentleman in your own ways. I just tend to feel that, although, the government isn't always right, it still has standards and laws for the public to abide by. I just feel that if he was willing to go through the hoops and all the other crap they tend to give you, then he was responsible enough to understand the laws and go through the process.....and I to tend to agree with this "Personally, as long as he's responsible in all other aspects of his life, I'd rather my (hypothetical) daughter's date have a healthy disrespect for government authority." to a certain point. I don't feel that our government is the best....but it is definitely far from being the worst. Hope this clears somethings up....I (not meaning to offend and not trying to come across as a smart@ss) appreciate how you debated with me with forethought and reason...not many people I have dealt with to managed to stay courteous and debate......not argue and yell. Yet again Thank You for not bereaving me and taking "The High Road" and doing so logically.:o

Standing Wolf
October 17, 2005, 08:26 PM
Every law-abiding American citizen should keep and bear arms.

exoduster18
October 17, 2005, 08:28 PM
Amen...to that one Standing Wolf....

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 08:45 PM
Yes they should. But legaly. We arn't speaking a thirty round mag in an area where you are only allowed a ten round one.

An outright illegal firearm? No. If it is sitting at your house that's one thing. But if you are carrying it around with you Im sorry that doesn't cut it.

Descent is fine and healthy. But there are healthy and unhealthy ways to do it. Healthy is to find every loophole in the law and no mater how hard they make it do it anyway, but by the law. And speak out agianst it and do everything in your power to change it. Untill such a time it get's so bad the only way to preserve your right's is to fight the system through illegal action doing it illegaly is wrong and help's nothing. To me, if you lived in NOLA and shot a cop or National Guardsmen trying to illegaly confiscate your gun, that is doing something normally illegal to preserve your right's because it has coem to that point. But jsut walking around with total disreguard for the law, even if the law is far over bearing, is wrong.

I think speed limit's are to low. And while I may sometime's speed I don't reguarly drive a 100mph even though there are time's I could saftly and easily do so. Descent is fine. Fighting when all else fail's is fine. Outright disreguard for the law is not fine.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 08:52 PM
Yet again Thank You for not bereaving me and taking "The High Road" and doing so logically.
It's my pleasure... nice to have a civilized debate once in a while.:cool:

Outright disreguard for the law is not fine.
The law is a slippery slope... sometimes you just have to dig in. How would you feel if you had to get a permit just to own a pistol?

jpIII
October 17, 2005, 08:59 PM
I see good points on both sides. If I may add a few more of my own.

-If the gentleman caller is obedient enough to abide by municiple/state laws, chances are he'll also follow daddy's "house rules"

-I somewhat doubt a date is in much danger of being an accessory to the crime of carrying a concealed weapon. (possible, but unlikely)

-On the other hand,carrying anyway does show an independent, clear thinking individual with a mind like my own.

hard to decide if you ask me. (but I would probably prefer the permit if it is required by the state you reside in)

JPIII

gaston_45
October 17, 2005, 09:05 PM
Hey Lupinus, what's that line in bold type in your sig line again??

Flyboy
October 17, 2005, 09:06 PM
Sorry, being political is fine and dandy. But doing it through illegal mean's does nothing but add fuel to the fire and give them more reason to take away more ... right's.
...
But jsut walking around with total disreguard for the law, even if the law is far over bearing, is wrong.
Yup. I hate it when them uppity <epithet> come in our diner and use our end of the bus. Ain't they got no respect for the law?

Sorry, what were we talking about again?

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 09:10 PM
The law is a slippery slope... sometimes you just have to dig in. How would you feel if you had to get a permit just to own a pistol?
Might I have one without hte proper permit? Maybe. If that's the law that's the law. is it a BS law? Absoloutly. But it is the law. Proper thing to do is to activly speak agianst it, write your representative. Show that whatever bs law they try to impose on you will not keep you from exorcising your right while you work to get the law changed. If all else fail's move and take your tax dollar's with you to someplace more friendly for your belief's. But even if I had an illegal firearm I damn sure wouldn't be carrying it around on me. That's asking to be arrested and does nothing to help make bs firearm's law go away.

If he disobey's the law of the state because he think's it's unjust and doesn't want to work activly to get it changed. Should I trust him to not disobey other law's he consider's to be BS with my daughter? Drug's, drinking, reckless behaviour, etc? Or obey the limit's placed on their dating? (Where and what are off limit's, what time she has to be home, you use it you loose it, etc.?)

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 09:13 PM
Hey Lupinus, what's that line in bold type in your sig line again??
I know what it is. But there are proper way's to challenge and inproper way's to challenge it.

Yup. I hate it when them uppity <epithet> come in our diner and use our end of the bus. Ain't they got no respect for the law?
So we are comparing it to that now? When the goverment tell's me I can;t carry a gun period, then the time for law abiding is over. So long as it is while the law may be overbearing there is proper and inproper way's to challenge it.

Flyboy
October 17, 2005, 09:20 PM
A right is a right; it doesn't have degrees.

Here's one for those of you who wouldn't let your daughters go out with an otherwise-respectable gentleman caller who exercised his rights: if your daughter were going somewhere dangerous (and didn't have the option of not going), would you allow her to carry? If so, what's the difference?

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 09:27 PM
A right is a right; it doesn't have degrees.
And that doesn't mean a law should be outright disobeyed. Agian. Proper and Inproper way's of challenging law. You do what you like I havn't any intention of reporting you. But you will not be dating m daughter if you have complete disreguard for the law. Should I allow him to use drug's around my daughter too? So long as he feel's anti drug law's are BS too? No. You do what you like, my daughter is not being dragged into it if you can't obey simple law's. When the gun is banned that is one thing. When it is regulated fallow the law and work within legal means to change don't just say screw you and do it anyway, least not around my daughter.

if your daughter were going somewhere dangerous (and didn't have the option of not going), would you allow her to carry? If so, what's the difference?
You like throwing off hypothetical's don't you?
Why don't you elaborate on your place's she doesn't have an option of not going to that are so dangerous she'd need a gun? If it was that dangerous I wouldn't be trusting her to go alone with some guy that can't even follow a basic law and properly challenge it.

gaston_45
October 17, 2005, 09:30 PM
Uhh... Lupinus... blacks could ride the bus, it wasn't banned, they just couldn't ride in particular seats. We can carry guns, just not particular guns. It is the identical thing according to your very example! As far as the right and wrong way, sometimes you have to throw tea in the bay even if you would rather drink the tea, if it proves your point. Oh, and even though littering wasn't an issue then, it was still illegal for them to throw the tea in the bay. Personally, I am glad they didn't try to "talk it out" and waste time losing a war of attrition while they waited for the king to decide what to do. Hmm... kind of like what we are doing with the patriot act now huh? Just follow the law and all will be well, just protest legally... oh, you mean you can't because you are locked up without charges or representation? When is enough Lupinus?

If a fine young man showed up to date my one of my daughters( in another 12 years when they are old enough) carying a weapon I would ascertain whether or not he would be willing to use it in the fullest to protect my daughter. If he would, fine. If not, well, he would get a kindly explaination why his night is being cut short. No mention of legal or otherwise is needed, because an adult has the right to keep and bear arms which shall not be infringed by any silly permit or waiting period.

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 09:36 PM
no takers on my hypothetical?

come on,...just picture it.

Clean cut guy and his response is something like this

"Well sir, although this state has provisions for individuals with no criminal record to take a training course and receive a ccw permit, I declined to apply for one based on my political principle that such permits are a direct slap in the face to the Second Amendment"

I have a beautiful daughter that is just approaching dating age.

Where I live, they have a name for clean cut young men that decline to apply for a CCW based their political principles and carry anyway. We call them "felons". I refuse to let my daughter date a felon no matter how clean cut or principled he may be.

Try this: He really is a convicted felon, can't get a permit for concealed carry, and the part about being "principled" was just a line.

What if they get pulled over on the way home after two drinks? Will his principles guide him to shoot it out with the authorities that are depriving him of his second ammendment rights rather than go to jail?

Look, my belief in the RTKandBA borders on obsession. However, I will not break the law, even if I don't agree with it. I will not let my daughter date a lawbreaker either. Would you?

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 09:37 PM
They are seperate issue's.

Will we reach the point one day where the same sort of action is needed? Quite possibly, given the current track. Are we there yet? No.

How long and how much pushing did it take for our founding father's to revolt? Diplomacy was tried and when it failed the result was rebelion. They exhausted other way's of doing it. The same applies here. While that point may be reached it hasn't been reached at this point in time. In 12 year's or when I have daughters old enough to date the situation may very well be different. For all we know in another 12 or 13 year's that point may have been reached.

If I had a daughter right now old enough to date given current situation's I have stated how I would act. Given different situation's and current laws of the time the answer may very well be different.

If you can get a permit there is no reason not to and carry a gun anyway. If you live in a state where you can't, well then I might be a bit more open minded. If it is something you are willing to risk with your daughter that's your choice. Given current law's and situation's he would be sent packing...pardon the pun.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 09:39 PM
Well said Eddie.

Proper and inproper way's to challenge law and get it changed. We have not yet reached the point for open rebellion agianst the law. In most place's it is neither opressive enough and has not be challenged enough.

m0ntels
October 17, 2005, 10:00 PM
I think Lupinus's point is while they may have a right to carry (legal issues aside,) they dont have a RIGHT to break his rules of his house. If daddy says no dating felons in his house, then no dating felons in his house, whether they are morally right or not! :D

Randy

kel
October 17, 2005, 10:05 PM
Don't be surprised that many people wouldn't let their daughters go out with someone carrying illegally....they are being sensible in that way. As parents they would want a young suitor to show that he was responsible in that he obtained the CCW license and exercised that right carefully. That shows the girl's parents that he is somewhat responsible and not a total idiot.

Now, as for my own daughter (that I don't have, I'm am to young to be a father, I am in college and will have kids when I have settled down and decided I'm good and ready to have a family, besides I'm only 18), if he does have the permit then yes she may go, but if not, then forget it. If you can't be a responsible gun owner, I have to assume that you can't properly handle, so then if you can't treat a gun like a responsible person then why would I think that you could be respectful and responsible towards my daughter?
And if no license is available?

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 10:09 PM
Basicly

Morally right and I might allow it if you are a good guy. But at this point, breaking the law to illegaly carry a gun is not morally right. I havn't looked extensivly into law's in some state's like Jersey where it is extremely restrictive. In that case, I MAY consider it if im in a good mood. In many place's, you can get a CCW. If you can get one, get it. We are not at the point IMO where open disobediance of the law is warrented so therefor, good for you do it all you want, just do it away from my daughter and family unless you are going to do it legaly untill such point as there is no longer a point in going the legal route. At which time I will gladly move to a state which decide's to leave the US in order to protect the right's of it's citizen's right along with you. Till that day, do it legal or do it elsewhere.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 10:11 PM
And if no license is available?
I would take it into deeper consideration. But untill legal measure's are exhausted still likly would be agianst it. As it stand's today if a bunch of jersey pro 2a's walked around practicing open carry, it likly wouldn't solve much and wouldn't be the way to go as it wouldn't accomplish anything. In the future? Maybe it will and the time for force as nessisary will be needed. But that time has not been reached.

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 10:21 PM
And if no license is available?

Kel, you're from Massachusetts same as me. I'm sure that you're aware of the mandatory one-year-in-jail penalty for carrying illegally. I live in a small town where young people often get pulled over when it's late.

I don't like the fact that there's a mandatory sentence for anything. I also think it is wrong to pull over a driver because it's late and he/she is young-looking.

However, there is no freaking way that I'm going to let my daughter go out with a guy - no matter how "nice" he appears - that is carrying illegally and risking a year in prison if he gets caught - there's just too much risk that he'll do something stupid.

GunnyBob
October 17, 2005, 10:53 PM
Not too many hard and fast rules in my home, but after a bad scene with a friend of a friend a few years back during poker night, I do ask that if you're carrying I'd like to know. Now, if a young man entered my home and did not tell me he was carrying I wouldn't be all that upset if he wasn't aware of the rules, but as I held him upside down by the ankle and checked out his carry piece with the other hand, I'd politely ask him if he was prepared to die as slow as he could to see my daughter home safely then let them be on their way if the right answer was forthcoming.

all the best

gunny

exoduster18
October 17, 2005, 10:55 PM
Hey no problem....I enjoy it here at THR and don't wanna go away soon due to belittling someone in an argument.....that's not right to do to someone. It only becomes an argument when people start throwing accusations and names around. Debating is a fine art to be studied......I just enjoy it sometimes. Just so as long the person I'm debating with can debate with forethought and reason...not on emotions.

"It's my pleasure... nice to have a civilized debate once in a while." Yes, yes it is. lol ;) :o

Flyboy
October 17, 2005, 11:02 PM
^^^Amen. I hang around here, and precious few other places, because of the quality of discourse. It's nice to have a place where we can disagree without fighting.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:06 PM
Nothing wrong with disagreeing at all. I rather enjoy a good debate. I have all but given up debate with liberal's though, it is mostly pointless and degrade's to personal attack's from them and point blank idiocy.

I think it is more a debate here about level of reaction or tactic's then whether there is a right to carry or bare arm's.

bearmgc
October 17, 2005, 11:07 PM
There are some very good reasons why some people don't have CCW's. Its because they were either turned down or didn't apply because they knew they would be turned down. A Gal at work asked about CCW, because a new guy she was seeing, carried, and he told her he was turned down for a CCW. He had decided to carry anyways, because "its my responsibility to protect the woman I'm with." How gallant, yet, she later learned he had been arrested for domestic violence with his previous wife. Carrying illegally not good.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 11:20 PM
Okay, new hypothetical.

Guy shows up, clean cut; slacks, button down shirt, maybe even a tie; and a roscoe strapped to his hip, in plain sight. He's 21, and open carry is legal.

Dads?

Flyboy
October 17, 2005, 11:23 PM
Carrying illegally not good.
So, as I travel benignly from Oklahoma to Ohio, and drive through Illinois, I'm morally wrong if I fail to unload my 1911 and put it in the back of my vehicle? Who am I hurting?

Blanket statements not good.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 11:28 PM
There are some very good reasons why some people don't have CCW's. Its because they were either turned down or didn't apply because they knew they would be turned down. A Gal at work asked about CCW, because a new guy she was seeing, carried, and he told her he was turned down for a CCW. He had decided to carry anyways, because "its my responsibility to protect the woman I'm with." How gallant, yet, she later learned he had been arrested for domestic violence with his previous wife. Carrying illegally not good.
Did she ask why he couldn't get a permit? Do you know the specifics of the arrest? "Domestic violence" in this country nowadays could be raising your voice, if the wrong neighbor hears, or the SO is real mad at you.

Not trying to shoot holes in your story, but hearing about guys who can't get guns because of a "domestic violence" incident doesn't have the same ring to me that it might once have had.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:30 PM
Guy shows up, clean cut; slacks, button down shirt, maybe even a tie; and a roscoe strapped to his hip, in plain sight. He's 21, and open carry is legal.

Well if my daughter is 16 and he's 21 im taking his gun and pistol whipping him :D

But aside lol

If it is legal it's legal. He get's an interview if he seem's well centered enough say kid's have fun. And I don't care how you dress. I mean if you dress radicly in one direction that's one thing. But so long as you dress decently and respectfully im fine. Short's, jean's, tight, baggy, whatever. Just not extreme or with stupidity. And he can dress all the clean cut he want's he's still getting the interview. Most of the time those are the sneaky one's you have to look out for

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 11:35 PM
Okay, new hypothetical.

Guy shows up, clean cut; slacks, button down shirt, maybe even a tie; and a roscoe strapped to his hip, in plain sight. He's 21, and open carry is legal.

Dads?


No.

Slacks? My Mom uses that word; I thought she was the last one.

Clean cut, button down shirt, tie, slacks, and a gun? Sorry Pal. Way too creepy. Sounds like the kinda guy that wears a gun so that guys like me wouldn't give him a wedgie. My daughter can do better.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:38 PM
Jac-
I agree completly with what you said on domestic violence. If you're a man and your SO get's ticked off at you you're pretty much screwed. Heck, even without marking's she could probably get you arrested and convicted.

As for the yelling that is the most BS of it all. I admitidly have a bit of a temper and it isn't exactly hard to get my voice raised. It is EXTREMELY hard to get me to the point I am violent. I have blown up once in my life at someone, and even then I wouldn't hit them, put a hole in the wall (which for my family, one hole in the wall by my age is a bloddy miricle) and got loud. Admit I went overboard. But I have alway's maintained control to the point I will NOT lay my hand's on someone, even if I sound like it. And actual fight's have been extremly rare, I have never actually stated a fight in all truthfulness.

All couple's fight at one time or another. Hell anyone that live's together fight's once in awhile reguardless of relationship. Fight's often mean raised voice's. That doesn't mean someone is about to get clobbered.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 11:39 PM
No.

Slacks? My Mom uses that word; I thought she was the last one.

Clean cut, button down shirt, tie, slacks, and a gun? Sorry Pal. Way too creepy. Sounds like the kinda guy that wears a gun so that guys like me wouldn't give him a wedgie. My daughter can do better.
Chinos? Dockers? Khakis? What?

I wear slacks, and I'll be 21 in 2 months. Color me geeky. :evil:

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 11:41 PM
Chinos? Dockers? Khakis? What?

I wear slacks, and I'll be 21 in 2 months. Color me geeky. :evil:
Why would you wear a gun to pick up a date? Are you trying to scare or trying to purposely intimidate her Dad? Impress the girl? Feel that the only way to protect her is with a gun? Afraid someone will try to steal your slacks?

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:43 PM
Eddie-
I'd rather my daughter have someone that's clean cut. Not a sissy, but hey if that's her type that's her type. So long as the type she pick's isn't dangerous and on the individual level he is a good guy all is well, I'm not going to dictate to exactly who she date's so long as he isn't extreme.

And what if he is trying to clean up and make a good impression or take her someplace nice? Hell, if my daughter could be so lucky as to find a good guy that can take care of himself and dress up and interact with the move upperclass folk's, I'd be mighty proud of my little girl.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:44 PM
Chinos? Dockers? Khakis? What?

I wear slacks, and I'll be 21 in 2 months. Color me geeky
I'll be 20 in 2 day's (ok 2 day's and 15 minute's, close enough heh)

I often wear khaki's but I prefer jean's.

Why would you wear a gun to pick up a date?
Same reason I would carry a gun anywhere. Self protection and preservation, as well as her's.

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 11:47 PM
Same reason I would carry a gun anywhere. Self protection and preservation, as well as her's.

Yeah, but you can't. You're not old enough.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 11:48 PM
Why would you wear a gun to pick up a date? Are you trying to scare or trying to purposely intimidate her Dad?
Not saying I would; I think it would be rude... it was just a hypothetical.

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 11:48 PM
I'm not going to dictate to exactly who she date's so long as he isn't extreme.

Slacks, a button down shirt, and a tie at my daughter's age IS extreme.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:49 PM
Yeah, but you can't. You're not old enough.
When I am old enough then, since I don't carry one now and wont till I legaly can.

Jac
October 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
When I am old enough then, since I don't carry one now and wont till I legaly can.
Heh... you're big on legal, aren't you?;)

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
Slacks, a button down shirt, and a tie at my daughter's age IS extreme.
You were forced to wear slack's as a kid wern't you?

How is it extreme? If that's how he want's to dress it's how he want's to dress. Maybe he intend's to take her someplace nice?

Now don't get me wrong. If he show's up in a Pee Wee get up....we need to have a serious talk man to...pee wee...but just cause the boy can dress nice doesn't make him a weirdo.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:54 PM
Heh... you're big on legal, aren't you?
I don't see a reason not to be. Do I like it? No, I think I am old enough to do anything I want as far as the law goes, should be allowed to buy and carry a handgun to. But why risk it? Should I conceal one now? So if something happen's and I get caught with it I will never be allowed to own one agian let alone carry one? I can wait a year to carry it legaly, it is better then never being allowed to as long as current law's remain the same. In the mean time, if something come's up for me to get it changed I will do my damnedist to try and get it done.

Byron Quick
October 17, 2005, 11:54 PM
Doesn't really apply to me. Sadly, I have no daughters. If I did, then my daughter would be packing. CCW? He's got a CCW as far as I'm concerned. It's called the Second Amendment. I'll leave the permit thing to the statists. I'm not one.

Now if he wasn't carrying a pistol, I'd have a talk with my daughter about her standards in regards to dating boys. I don't hang around with people who are not responsible for their own defense. At all. Yes, such an attitude curtails one's social life. So what? I've always preferred quality to quantity. YMMV.

Yeah, but you can't. You're not old enough.


If I did have children, they'd be carrying by the time they were going on dates. If I didn't consider them mature enough to take responsibility to carry and defend themselves then they wouldn't be going out alone. First offense carrying without permission is a misdemeanor in Georgia. It does not bar you from getting a carry permit nor purchasing firearms.
Put it in the balance: My teenager's life in one pan and a misdemeanor in the other. I'll gladly pay the fine.

To beat all the naysayers to the punch. Those who want to hold up the lack of maturity of adolescents. Sure, in many cases. On the other hand, the most responsible and mature individual that I have ever known; reached that level of maturity and responsibility at the age of fifteen.

EddieCoyle
October 17, 2005, 11:57 PM
Not saying I would; I think it would be rude... it was just a hypothetical.

Hypothetical or not, you are right. It is rude, or worse yet, stupid.

Sorry to play the age card on ya but have a kid someday, pour your heart into raising her right, and then tell me that you'll let her go out with some unknown, creepy, clean-cut, slacks-wearing geek with a gun.

I'd rather have her going out with an unarmed, Levis-wearing, fireballing lefty from the neighborhood with a pickup.

EDIT: By "from the neighborhood" I mean that I know the kid.

Lupinus
October 17, 2005, 11:58 PM
I agree to quality to quantity.

But for any one of numerous reason he can't get a CCW I am not willing to take that chance. Will legaly carrying win him point's? Very much so. If he choose's not to? That's his right as well. I'd prefer otherwise but it is her choice. So long as he is a good guy, he is fine. But Im not going to condone him doing illegal thing's with my daughter or around my daughter.

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 12:04 AM
So would I.

But I recognize that she could do a lot worse then a clean cut "nice guy" with a gun. And agian, who is to say this is the way the kid alway's dresses?

What if he plan's to take her to a nice place where dinner is gonna cost him a hundred buck's? Would you prefer he show up in a wife beater and dirty jean's to go to a nice fancy place?

There are plenty of guy's that are nice guy's. Just because they are clean cut yet carry a gun doesn't make them a psycopath. If she found someone who was both nice and willing to be self sufficient? Great. Someone who is willing to get his hand's dirty but also know's how to clean up nice? Even better, best of both world's. Kid strait off the farm? Fine to. Im not going to disqualify the kid for being nice and well dressed to take my daughter out for a good time. And agian, within reason. If he show's up dressed liek Pee Wee that's a bit much and over the top. If he show's up in slack's, a decent shirt, maybe a tie, that's fine.

hso
October 18, 2005, 12:06 AM
Let's consider that anyone dating my daughter that was of a legal age to legally carry would have to be an "adult" and so would my daughter. That said, I'd almost certainly ask several questions to be certain that he was a responsibly minded person.

m0ntels
October 18, 2005, 12:09 AM
Not to steer this away from the debate on slacks but...

Guy shows up, clean cut; slacks, button down shirt, maybe even a tie; and a roscoe strapped to his hip, in plain sight. He's 21, and open carry is legal.

While something may be legal, it isnt always a good idea. If you are a young person meeting your date's parents for the first time, I dont think it is too smart to show up on their doorstep as a stranger with a pistol in plain sight. I love guns as much as the next guy, but I dont want gun-toting strangers showing up on my doorstep. If the guy can afford to dress that way, he can afford a decent tucker holster.

Randy

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 12:13 AM
good point mont.

I was thinking something slightly similer.

Why is he making it known? While I think open carry should be legal I think concealed carry is a better idea. And if he is carrying concealed and make's it a point he is carrying, that's not a great idea either I suppose.

Jac
October 18, 2005, 12:18 AM
Forgot to reply to this...

I don't see a reason not to be. Do I like it? No, I think I am old enough to do anything I want as far as the law goes, should be allowed to buy and carry a handgun to. But why risk it? Should I conceal one now? So if something happen's and I get caught with it I will never be allowed to own one agian let alone carry one? I can wait a year to carry it legaly, it is better then never being allowed to as long as current law's remain the same. In the mean time, if something come's up for me to get it changed I will do my damnedist to try and get it done.
There is a gap -- sometimes a large gap -- between what is "legal" and what is morally right. Think of it as situational awareness. One needs to be aware that there are things that need to be done, like protecting onesself, whether it is legal or not. Of course, you have to weigh the risks; it might be easier to just get the permit. But, it might not.

That's why I don't care about "legal" or "illegal". I judge everything individually, based on if it is right or not. Then, I consider the risks of breaking a law. I have a DL because I need to drive and don't want to go to prison, not because I feel I need to obey the law for its own sake.

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 12:21 AM
I can see where you are coming from Jac.

To me, the risk's outweigh the benifit's. I can wait a year.

And getting my daughter involved in a situation of someone doing something illegal, moraly right or otherwise, is something I am not, and lilkly would not, be willing to do.

bearmgc
October 18, 2005, 12:25 AM
Morality vs legality, a personal choice whether to break the law yes. But if it involves my daughter in any way, it better be a legal CCW on that young man. As to Domestic violence arrest in my previous post, I don't know the particulars and didn't ask. She stopped seeing the guy, I don't know why. Some good points brought out about "domestic violence" issues and the law.

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 12:26 AM
Look, these are all stupid hypothetical arguments. Here's the deal:

If a guy shows up to take out my daughter and he's packing illegally (no CCW permit), it's a no go.

I live in a place where open carry is illegal. If he shows up open carrying, that's also illegal, and again, it's a no go.

If he shows up, with a permit for CCW, packing a gun, and lets me see it, I'm going to question his intelligence and discretion and I will not let my daughter go out with him until I know him better.

I don't care how "nice" he appears. If he violates any of the above, he's out. My kid, my house, my rules.

I'd prefer to know any guy that plans on dating my daughter. I realize that as she gets older, that is going to get harder to do. I raised her right and I trust her judgement. With that said, she can't carry until she's 21. Until then, I'd rather see her out with an unarmed loud-mouthed local jock than with a pimply, geeky, slacks-wearing creep with a gun.

But that's just me.

By the way, $100 is not too much to spend on dinner with my kid. And Lupinus, you seem like a nice kid. If you clean up your grammar, improve your spelling, and show up unarmed, I'd probably let you date my daughter. Just be prepared to spend $100 on dinner. ;)

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 12:30 AM
Hey I talk just fine, I have lagit reason's why I can't spell for crap :neener:

And 100 isn't much, I can make a meal worth twice that in my own kitchen. 100 was just a nice rounded off number IMO.

Though, right now I play the role of jobless bum. When I get a job and have an extra hundred I'll let ya know lol

Jac
October 18, 2005, 12:33 AM
$100 for a meal?!? Good grief!:what:

You set high standards for your little girl... the guys'll probably hate you, though.:D

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 12:35 AM
Hundred buck's aint all that much in a nice place. It isn't cheap but you could easily spend more in some of the fancier NYC spots

But I don't bother. 90% of what they make I can make at home

EDIT- Though it is nice on occasion

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 12:38 AM
$100 for a meal?!? Good grief!:what:

You set high standards for your little girl... the guys'll probably hate you, though.:D

GOOD!

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 12:42 AM
Not to steer this away from the debate on slacks but...



While something may be legal, it isnt always a good idea. If you are a young person meeting your date's parents for the first time, I dont think it is too smart to show up on their doorstep as a stranger with a pistol in plain sight. I love guns as much as the next guy, but I dont want gun-toting strangers showing up on my doorstep. If the guy can afford to dress that way, he can afford a decent tucker holster.

Randy

LOL on the slacks! I didn't see your post (too many in too short of a time). You're spot-on though. I'd never show up to pick up a date for the first time at her parent's house packing a gun (although I'm 42 and any date's parents are likely to be fossils - If I showed up with anything newer than a musket they might not recognize it). It's just bad form.

Jac
October 18, 2005, 12:43 AM
LOL on the slacks! I didn't see your post (too many in too short of a time). You're spot-on though. I'd never show up to pick up a date for the first time at her parent's house packing a gun (although I'm 42 and any date's parents are likely to be fossils - If I showed up with anything newer than a musket they might not recognize it). It's just bad form.
Heh...
Rule No. 1 - "Have a gun".;)

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 12:51 AM
Heh...
;)

Rule No. 2 - Don't wear slacks, wear pants instead.
Rule No. 3 - Show up at my house with an illegal gun to pick up my daughter and leave gun-less, with your tidy whities so far up your crack you'll need surgery to get 'em out.

Oleg Volk
October 18, 2005, 12:57 AM
Lack of permit can be replaced with discretion, up to a point. People under 21 and those in barbarian jurisdictions cannot get permits, so I'd rather the kid's date went armed (same for my kid) than unarmed. Permits? Hide the gun well, avoid trouble, if trouble finds them, I'll be ready with the bail and a lawyer.

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 01:07 AM
Actually, that part of my sig comes from the retired Mass State Police instructor that taught my CCW class. Great guy that's has been shot at by, or has shot at more bad guys that I hope to ever encounter.

Here's more of his Rules for Gunfighting:
Rule No. 1 - Have a gun.
Rule No. 2 - Have a gun with a caliber that starts with a "4".
Rule No. 3 - You can never bring too much ammo to a gunfight.
Rule No. 4 - Always aim for the center of mass.
Rule No. 5 - If you have to use your gun, keep firing until you hear a click.
Rule No. 6 - If you have to shoot, shoot. Don't warn.
Rule No. 7 - Use your sights
Rule No. 8 - Ignore the noise
Rule No. 9 - Don't give up your mobility
Rule No. 10 - Use two hands on the gun

Jac
October 18, 2005, 01:13 AM
And good rules they are. Especially the caliber one.:cool:

Byron Quick
October 18, 2005, 01:27 AM
If I know I'm going to a gunfight, I'll just call the cops and let them go.

artherd
October 18, 2005, 03:17 AM
I wonder how many parents who would 'want to see the permit' infact carry illegally themselves?

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 03:47 AM
I wonder how many parents who would 'want to see the permit' infact carry illegally themselves?
Only ifit came to that. As it is now, it hasn't come to that.

pax
October 18, 2005, 03:56 AM
If I saw his gun, I'd ask to see his permit.

NOT because I think any human being needs permission from any other human being in order to own and carry around his own personal property.

But because if I spotted it, the cops could spot it.

I want to either know he's covered legally, or watch how well he bluffs, to know if my daughter would be safe being there when he gets caught -- since he hasn't learned to keep the gun concealed.

If he doesn't bluff well enough, I might forbid them going out that night, in lieu of taking time to give him a few lessons about discreet carrying.

pax
(Oh, yeah, fair disclosure: no daughters in this household. Plenty sons though.)

The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. – John Stuart Mill

Byron Quick
October 18, 2005, 04:10 AM
pax is the only one I've seen that has an acceptable rationale for asking to see a permit.

Seeing as how I carried without government permission for years, I'd be something of a hypocrite to ask to see a carry permit.

But even with several different states' permits, I don't reckon I'd date their daughter for several reasons.

I'd ask you if you were allowed by statute to request those documents. If the father was able to answer that in the affirmative, I'd ask if he was still authorized to perform an official duty while off duty and for personal reasons. (I'm curious though, the young man probably arrived in a car. Do you ask to see his driver's license? If not, why not? Doing so would be just as pertinent, if not more so.)

Once faced with that situation, I'd realize that any woman raised by such parents probably has views and attitudes too statist to abide.

Hey, Dad, thanks for the timely warning not to waste my time on someone who doesn't measure up!

There are people with permits who will never be welcome on my property-armed or unarmed.
There are people who carry without permission that are always welcome.

On a tangent, one of the pioneers of aviation died last year. Among his many achievements, he was one of the first airline pilots and retired flying jet passenger planes in the mid-sixties. He worked at an airfield as a boy. Bought a used plane, repaired it, and taught himself to fly. Judging by some of the attitudes here, aviation would have lost his innovations for by their judgement he would have been barred from flight for doing so.

Oleg Volk
October 18, 2005, 07:47 AM
pax articulated well what I should have said. A practical mind she has...and sharper than most katanas.

waterhouse
October 18, 2005, 10:40 AM
I once had a girl announce, about 30 minutes after I met here parents: "Daddy, he carries a gun with him when we go out on dates!"

It wasn't quite out of the blue as we were already discussing guns, but I have to say the dad was a lot happier about finding out that I carried a gun than the girl was when she found out.

Kharn
October 18, 2005, 10:49 AM
Would you want to take the chance that your daughter might get hauled down to the station with said date while the cops sort things out, possibly even getting charged with something by an overzealous officer?

No permit, no date, IMHO. (except in AK and VT)

Kharn

Byron Quick
October 18, 2005, 12:47 PM
Would you want to take the chance that your daughter might get hauled down to the station with said date while the cops sort things out, possibly even getting charged with something by an overzealous officer?



Absolutely. My daughter would also be charged for the gun she was carrying without a permit. I value my family's lives more than I value slavishly following dangerous laws. I'm going to see they have the tools necessary to defend their lives. If you value following the law more than you value your family's lives...that is your business.

But I've been to the station and charged and later returned home after writing a check for the bail-bondsman. For carrying without permission. After paying an attorney, enduring some hassle, and giving the government the contents of my wallet, the matter was settled. First offense for carrying a pistol without a license in Georgia is a misdemeanor. I would certainly rather see my daughter charged with a misdemeanor than to be cornered by a rapist with no means to defend herself.

I have not seen anyone come out anywhere near that good after being buried in the cemetery. I suppose you have to decide what your priorities are.

Which is worse: a trip to the station, a misdemeanor charge for carrying without permission, maybe some other rinkydink charges by the overzealous officer or a daughter raped, beaten, or murdered who had no means to defend herself because you were worried about her maybe getting charged with a misdemeanor? For me, there is no dilemma-my friends and family go armed or they go their own way.

Gordon Fink
October 18, 2005, 12:49 PM
I’m curious though, the young man probably arrived in a car. Do you ask to see his driver’s license? If not, why not? Doing so would be just as pertinent, if not more so.

It’s called hypocrisy. Thank you for exposing it.

~G. Fink

AnthonyRSS
October 18, 2005, 01:15 PM
It is funny how people say that it is not morally right to carry if you don't have a permit. What is morally right, then? Where do you get your moral standards? By the Book, you should always be ready to protect your family. Its not up to bigbrother to decide if you can protect your family or not.

Its also strange how people forget why guns need to be carried. The risk of not having a gun is FAR greater than getting caught, no matter the law.

Byron is spot on.

Bix
October 18, 2005, 01:20 PM
Were the young lad carrying without a permit, I'd be inclined to presume that he'd not had any formal training in the defensive use of firearms. Of course, that presumption could be incorrect.

But, if it were true - and he was carrying a handgun without training - I'd consider him more a liability than an asset to my child's safety.

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 02:24 PM
I'm curious though, the young man probably arrived in a car. Do you ask to see his driver's license? If not, why not? Doing so would be just as pertinent, if not more so.

Yeah, the first time a kid comes to pick up either my daughter or my son I ask to see his/her driver's license. I do it to make sure he/she has a valid license, and also to note any restrictions. My kids are younger than 18 and it is my responsibility to do what I can to keep them out of trouble.

As far as the carrying a gun goes, My opinion is that a lot depends on the laws that are in place where you live. Byron, I can undertsand your willingness to pay the fine for a misdemeanor offense. Unfortunately, up here, unlawful carry is a felony that carries a mandatory 1-year jail sentence.

Massachusetts is a "shall issue" state. If the kid wants to carry he should apply for a permit. If he can't get a permit because he's a convicted felon, sex offender, or has restraining orders against him, then I don't want my daughter anywhere near him. Ditto if he's risking a year in prison because he's too lazy to apply.

If a date shows up to pick up my daughter and I see that he is carrying, he's already got one strike against him: Open carry is illegal and if he fails to conceal his gun from me, then I have to assume that either he wanted it to be seen, (which is irresponsible) or he's too inexperieced/incompetent not to be made.

I'll ask to see his concealed carry permit. If he doesn't have one, then he is commiting a felony. It doesn't matter whether I like the law (I don't) or morally agree with the law (again, I don't). The kid will spend a year in jail if he's caught. If I could pick up that he was carrying, I have to assume that any competent LEO would too. My daughter is not going out with him.

However, if he did have a CCW permit, I'd recommend a more concealable holster (maybe even lend him one of mine), make sure he was carrying good SD loads, and invite him to come out to the range sometime.

If he asked me if I was allowed by statute to request those documents, I'd throw him and his snotty attitude right out the door.

Thinking back... If I talked that way to my girlfriend's father the first time I met him, he'd've smacked me so hard that his Marine Corps ring would've left an impression in my head so detailed that they'd've been able to use my head as a mold to make more rings. You know what? If I brought that attitude into his house, he would've been justified in doing it too.

Lupinus
October 18, 2005, 02:31 PM
Well said eddie

Love the ring comment btw, so true lol

Atticus
October 18, 2005, 02:55 PM
Assuming this is a planned date, I would already know alot about him. I would know much more after talking to him in person. After seeing the gun, I would ask him general questions about the gun. I would not let her go if he were carrying illegally (assuming she is a minor). If he wants to do illegal stuff - then don't let me know about it. However, he has an obligation to let her know. If they get caught, they will pay the price. I would then review the five rules of safe gun handling -the fifth being that I would kill him if he hurt her in any way.

SomeKid
October 18, 2005, 03:02 PM
Eddie,

http://www.packing.org/state/massachusetts/

Update yourself.

MA is NOT shall issue.

EddieCoyle
October 18, 2005, 03:21 PM
Eddie,

http://www.packing.org/state/massachusetts/

Update yourself.

MA is NOT shall issue.

I stand corrected. The new law passed in July gets us part of the way, but not quite there.

Gordon Fink
October 18, 2005, 06:49 PM
If I talked that way to my girlfriend’s father the first time I met him, he’d’ve smacked me so hard that his Marine Corps ring would’ve left an impression in my head.… You know what? If I brought that attitude into his house, he would’ve been justified in doing it too.

Fortunately, around here, that would be assault and battery.

~G. Fink

nfl1990
October 18, 2005, 07:06 PM
Okay, new hypothetical.

Guy shows up, clean cut; slacks, button down shirt, maybe even a tie; and a roscoe strapped to his hip, in plain sight. He's 21, and open carry is legal.

Dads?

First off that is a BAD tactical desicion on his part.
Second I would not recomend going to ANYONE's door with a gun in plain sight, leagal or not, because I know that I would answer the w/ my shotgun, saftey off shouldered, and pointed at the ground.

ny32182
October 18, 2005, 08:10 PM
This, coming from the same group of people who almost unanimously stated that they had no problem carrying illegally, and either did it for years and/or still do... but when their daughter wants to date someone who does the same thing, it causes a problem for the vast majority.

I see how this works, alright.:barf:

BHPshooter
October 18, 2005, 09:18 PM
Would you want to take the chance that your daughter might get hauled down to the station with said date while the cops sort things out, possibly even getting charged with something by an overzealous officer?

Would you want to take the chance that your daughter's body might get hauled down to the morgue with said date's corpse, while the cops eat doughnuts over the chalk outlines that formerly skirted their bodies?

This topic has almost exclusively focused on people who could get a CCW permit, but simply wouldn't. It also touched on people who lived in Communist states. However, I never see any thought given to people who are for all intents and purposes mature adults, but who are caught in that 'black hole' between 18 and 21, where you have all of the obligations of adulthood, with none of the perks.

Although many in this thread will see it all the same -- "it's all illegal" -- the fact still stands that the only person who can look out for you is YOU.

I know a guy who has carried a pistol ever since he was 19. He was just as law-abiding as anybody I've known until he narrowly escaped a few muggings and robbery attempts, and decided that he was his own keeper.

He started carrying because he had no other option, and was caught in that gap between 18 and 21. He carried doing everything, too -- At work, at his college classes, picking girls up for dates, and even got pulled over once while carrying. Of course, he wasn't found out (he's a cool customer), but he did it all.

Then, when he turned 21, he went and got his CCW permit. Many people don't WANT to break the law, but many people, like people between 18 and 21, have no legal avenue to defend themselves.

I admire his guts. I know that oftentimes he was very nervous, even guilty about it... but I know that he held no malicious intent, because once he had the option, he went and made himself legal.
I firmly believe that he did NOTHING wrong, regardless of what the law says.

Wes

VARifleman
October 18, 2005, 10:57 PM
If the young man in question were under 21 years old, he could only be carrying “illegally.” If he and my daughter were over the age of majority, I wouldn’t have much say in the matter anyway.

~G. Fink
In California and some other states this is true, in others, it's perfectly legal to carry open when you're 18, and at least IA get a concealed permit.

Just thought I should clear some of that up ans there have been multiple people confusing that.

Byron, I absolutely agree with you on your points, but if she's under 18, you run into problems with the Youth Handgun "Safety" :rolleyes: Act. Take care.

nfl1990
October 18, 2005, 11:01 PM
I don't know- if he is willing to commit a felony about this, what else would he commit a felony about.

bobhaverford
October 19, 2005, 07:03 PM
My daughter's BF told her that he dreamed that I killed him. :) :D Now, I gotta being doing something right! When she told me, I told her that's how I'd like him to think of me! He disappeared shortly afterwards. Never did like the little pr**k. A little too glib and too handsy for my tastes.

All of my daughter's BF's have been scared of me. Fine!! I'd just as soon they fear and respect me as be my friend. There's plenty of time for that later. For now I want them to know that I expect them to take care of my daughters, not place them in any danger, to drive carefully, and stay away from the booze. I patiently explain to any BF that my daughters are umimaginably precious to me. That they are to be treated with respect and care. That they are not to be taken advantage of.

I take great care to communicate to them that they are going out with someone who is loved greatly. I explain to them that I want them paying attention to any potentially dangerous situations and I want them to avoid the same.

As far as carrying goes. I just don't know. I'd be uncomfortable with that. I'd have to know the guy VERY well first. I don't want my daughters taken to any places where they could conceivably be endangered. I know, I know. It can happen anywhere. But I just wouldn't feel comfortable with an unknown guy carrying a gun around my daughter.

I'll have to give it some more thought.

mbs357
October 19, 2005, 07:35 PM
I probably would ask for a permit first, and then say I'm holding his gun. He better not be taking her anywhere where it is likely he needs it on a first date, or any date I know about.
Just found this thread and haven't read much of it--but I saw this and had to reply:
Sometimes the things that make those places bad come to you.
What happens if they go to this nice fancy resturaunt in the 'good' part of town and the ess hits the eff?
The reason we carry all the time is for the unforseeable.
You can't carry a gun just when you know something's going to happen...because you don't know. Holding his gun keeps him from being prepared to defend himself and your daughter.
She's hitched now, but he and I are still buddies.
lol!

AnthonyRSS
October 20, 2005, 10:27 AM
So much hypocrisy in this thread it is amazing...:barf:
:banghead:

R.H. Lee
October 20, 2005, 11:20 AM
Submitted without comment

Gordon Fink
October 20, 2005, 11:22 AM
But I just wouldn’t feel comfortable with an unknown guy carrying a gun around my daughter.

I’ll have to give it some more thought.

I hope you give it a lot more thought, because the discomfort you feel is exactly why the anti-RKBA crowd doesn’t want you, me, or our children to own or carry firearms.

~G. Fink

m0ntels
October 20, 2005, 01:03 PM
I hope you give it a lot more thought, because the discomfort you feel is exactly why the anti-RKBA crowd doesn’t want you, me, or our children to own or carry firearms.

So much hypocrisy in this thread it is amazing...

Honestly, I wasnt thinking anything much deeper when I started this thread than a way to boost my post count on this board, but it really has gotten me thinking, and I guess a bunch of other people too.

We all want our Constitutional right back. We all think we should be able to carry all the time, wherever we want, with no limits or exceptions. We want hollow points in Jersey, hi-caps in Cali, and we want the machine gun registry opened up again. All of these things have been limited to us over the years and we find it hard to figure it out why it would happen and how horrible it is. But in this thread alone, all of us gun lovers and RKBA promoters have basically said if you have no permit, I dont want you to carry. Prove your responsibility with your weapon before you can use it, and let me see you use it at the range.

What all that is translates in the long run to carry permits, permit testing requirements, and a delay before you can use your gun. All things that we argue arent right, but at the same time, they are the very choices we feel is best when it comes to protecting our own interest. Then when we cant figure out why people want to ban certain ammo types or magazine sizes. Well what if having people get permits, waiting before they can have a gun, or standardized testing still doesnt protect out interests? Then we'd start grasping at other straws like 10 shot limits and no steel core ammo because maybe that will help.

We joke and say knives kill and ball bats kill so we better ban them for the sake of the children. But now in this thread, we are saying you must have a permit for the children. You must demonstrate your skill for the children. We're not being hypocritical on purpose to cover up for ourselves. It just reminds us how all of us responsible people can tuck your shirt behind your holster, drop it in the supermarket parking lot, or dry fire in your living room and shoot the tv tube out.

All of us make mistakes with our guns. Some more than others. But what can we really do about the situation to make it better? The 2 we've talked about up to this point is to either trust a stranger or to impose some kind of limitation on a person who may very well be more responsible than ourselves. I guess the only thing we can really do is be patient and try to educate people about what we see to be the truth. I try to get people to shoot with me. If they're leary about that, I teach them how to reload because it doesnt involve the gun itself at first and when anyone finishes making some bullets, they dont just want to keep them on a shelf, they want to shoot them.

If we can keep teaching more and more people, maybe they will learn that a gun is a tool just like a hammer or saw. Both can be dangerous when misused, but in the right hands can do good things. So if junior comes over and you spot his piece, talk to him with an open mind at first. Maybe he can teach you something.

Or maybe I'm just bored and rambling :o

Randy

Correia
October 20, 2005, 01:55 PM
Wes, I'm guessing I taught your friend's CCW class, correct? :D

kel
October 20, 2005, 07:14 PM
Yeah, the first time a kid comes to pick up either my daughter or my son I ask to see his/her driver's license. I do it to make sure he/she has a valid license, and also to note any restrictions. My kids are younger than 18 and it is my responsibility to do what I can to keep them out of trouble.

As far as the carrying a gun goes, My opinion is that a lot depends on the laws that are in place where you live. Byron, I can undertsand your willingness to pay the fine for a misdemeanor offense. Unfortunately, up here, unlawful carry is a felony that carries a mandatory 1-year jail sentence.

Massachusetts is a "shall issue" state. If the kid wants to carry he should apply for a permit. If he can't get a permit because he's a convicted felon, sex offender, or has restraining orders against him, then I don't want my daughter anywhere near him. Ditto if he's risking a year in prison because he's too lazy to apply.

If a date shows up to pick up my daughter and I see that he is carrying, he's already got one strike against him: Open carry is illegal and if he fails to conceal his gun from me, then I have to assume that either he wanted it to be seen, (which is irresponsible) or he's too inexperieced/incompetent not to be made.

I'll ask to see his concealed carry permit. If he doesn't have one, then he is commiting a felony. It doesn't matter whether I like the law (I don't) or morally agree with the law (again, I don't). The kid will spend a year in jail if he's caught. If I could pick up that he was carrying, I have to assume that any competent LEO would too. My daughter is not going out with him.

However, if he did have a CCW permit, I'd recommend a more concealable holster (maybe even lend him one of mine), make sure he was carrying good SD loads, and invite him to come out to the range sometime.

If he asked me if I was allowed by statute to request those documents, I'd throw him and his snotty attitude right out the door.

Thinking back... If I talked that way to my girlfriend's father the first time I met him, he'd've smacked me so hard that his Marine Corps ring would've left an impression in my head so detailed that they'd've been able to use my head as a mold to make more rings. You know what? If I brought that attitude into his house, he would've been justified in doing it too.
You are very lucky if you get a license that is not restricted to sport and target. Hell, the licenses even when restricted are not shall issue. The Chief of Police can deny an application for LTC Class A or B without any reason and it is impossible to challenge as the law says specifically "may issue." Only FOID cards which allow the purchase and possesion of low capacity shotguns and rifles are shall issue in MA.

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 08:11 PM
But in this thread alone, all of us gun lovers and RKBA promoters have basically said if you have no permit, I dont want you to carry. Prove your responsibility with your weapon before you can use it, and let me see you use it at the range.


No, not all of us. I have a carry permit for one reason: to keep a minion of the state from pointing his gun at me legally. I'm forced to do it by the superior firepower of the state. That I have a carry permit, in no way means that I agree with the reasoning behind the license-or the justice of the concept. Boys and girls have the same rights as I do. Their responsible guardians have the duty to train them as to use and safety.

As I stated before, if my underage for a carry permit daughter's date was arrested for carrying without a permit then my daughter would probably also be arrested for carrying without a permit. Because she would for darn sure be carrying. She'd be trained in use and safety, granted. I don't associate with people who don't carry. If you cannot take responsibility for your own protection then you are not responsible enough for me to be around you.

I reckon we need to turn the premise around: would you let your son, who is too lacking in responsibility to be trusted with arms, go out with my trained, armed daughter?:D Hoperfully, the question would be moot, in that my daughter had already been trained to value competency and responsibility in boys, and thus would not date your son.

One thing's for sure, she wouldn't go anywhere without an adult guardian until she could be trusted to be responsibly armed. Neither would a son. And I would either be working for a change in the law, or moving if I lived in a state that made carry without permission a felony on a first offense. That is digusting. Come to think of it, felony for the second offense is disgusting. Think I need to start looking into that.

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