[Wastemore]

Probably been asked a million times..

Looking to buy a new carry pistol- I'm currently carrying a Baby Eagle 45 which I am in love with, but, it's a brick.

A bit of history and my requirements.

I'm an avid shooter and I'm at the range at least once a week going through at least 300 rounds(I'm obviously a re-loader) between rifle & pistol, but mostly pistol.
By far, I am most comfy with 1911's, but the 1911's I own are high end pistols which I don't really want to beat up, and they're also bricks. I have thought about a lightweight commander/officers, but I'm not fond of aluminum framed pistols simply because I shoot my carry weapon so often. The last one I owned got sloppy after less than a year.

I'm looking for a high-cap(10 round-thank you California!) pistol that doesn't weigh a ton, no aluminum frame, and I would rather not go to a polymer frame..for me, secondary sight aquisition suffers due to being overly lightweight.

Also, as if the abovementioned isn't enough, I have small hands.

I prefer 45ACP. I have toyed with the idea of a .40 S&W, but case pressures are already high and case support is an issue in quite a few stock barrels...I've heard of too many KB's.. this leaves the margin for error very, very small when loading. Yes, I'm very careful and have never had a problem with any of my ammo in 20 years of loading, but I'm scared of that cartridge for some reason.Probably for no good reason.

Help?

[Yardstick]

I think if you're after something not aluminum and not polymer, you're probably talking about a Titanium framed gun. It seems like I've heard of such an animal, but I'm not familiar with who makes them. I think there are some 1911 clones made with the frame (and possibly slide) made from Ti ($$$), but then you're not going to get high capacity out of it.

Something to consider is that the velocity of a .45 ACP round declines significantly out of a short barrel. I read somewhere that the optimum barrel length for a standard .45 load was 6"! The higher pressure .45 +P's perform better from short barrels, but then you're into pressures similar to a .40 S&W (which is optimized in its standard load out of a 4" barrel, if I remember correctly).

The small hands comment made me immediately think of the Taurus I have, even though it is polymer framed. I've got the PT-111 (12 rounds of 9mm), but the PT-145 (10 rounds of .45) isn't much larger, is light and according to reviews doesn't have a huge amount of recoil. It is DAO and being used to 1911's (I am too) it's not the easiest trigger to get used to. I'm still keeping my eyes open for a simliar size/weight gun in single action, or at least DA/SA.

This might be a good place to look too: http://www.mouseguns.com/ratguns/ratguns.htm

[James T Thomas]

S&W has made a new 1911 variation from Scandium; it's an aluminum alloy, none the less, but apparently the toughness equals steel. So they claim.

I believe the grip is somewhat smaller; more narrow.

The price is high, but it may be what you are looking for.

May I suggest! The road to the zero gravity gun is a yellow brick road to the land of Oz. Miniturization, plastic, replacement parts, alloys, it develops an insatiable appetite.

The very day you ever have to use your weapon, and it happens to be one of those never dreamed of situations, that is not the statistical 3.1 shots fired in plain vanilla self defense, you will yearn for that old heavy, and comforting piece.

Hump it and forget it. Make up your mind, and quit focusing on one kilogram of weaponry. If you had to carry your own water, and knew it was your sole supply, you would be glad to do it with much more weight.

[The Real Hawkeye]

S&W has made a new 1911 variation from Scandium; it's an aluminum alloy, none the less, but apparently the toughness equals steel. So they claim.

I believe the grip is somewhat smaller; more narrow.

The price is high, but it may be what you are looking for.

May I suggest! The road to the zero gravity gun is a yellow brick road to the land of Oz. Miniturization, plastic, replacement parts, alloys, it develops an insatiable appetite.

The very day you ever have to use your weapon, and it happens to be one of those never dreamed of situations, that is not the statistical 3.1 shots fired in plain vanilla self defense, you will yearn for that old heavy, and comforting piece.

Hump it and forget it. Make up your mind, and quit focusing on one kilogram of weaponry. If you had to carry your own water, and knew it was your sole supply, you would be glad to do it with much more weight.I agree. The S&W Scandium 1911 Commander Sc is the ideal pick for you. I have one and it shoots and carries great. Completely reliable. Personally, however, I cannot agree with your referring to a full weight 1911 as a brick. They are damned easy to carry in a good IWB like a Milt Sparks. I carry a full sized, full weight 1911 .45 in a Milt Sparks VSII IWB all day long, every day. I don't even know I'm carrying unless I feel back for it or pull up my shirt and look in a mirror. Not even at the end of the day. It only requires you get the right holster and belt. The belt needs to be thick and substantial, and you need to wear the holster somewhere between four o'clock and five o'clock for max comfort. You'd be surprised at how easy a draw that can be with practice.

[Wastemore]

The very day you ever have to use your weapon, and it happens to be one of those never dreamed of situations, that is not the statistical 3.1 shots fired in plain vanilla self defense, you will yearn for that old heavy, and comforting piece.

Hump it and forget it. Make up your mind, and quit focusing on one kilogram of weaponry. If you had to carry your own water, and knew it was your sole supply, you would be glad to do it with much more weight.

Thank you! You've managed to somehow make me feel guilty for complaining/asking..:p

It is sound advice and I'll probably just take it and run.
These Baby Eagles are amazingly accurate and quick to handle, not to mention, fits my hand perfectly, holds 10 and they're cheap enough to not worry about bumping them from time to time. Coming in at 2.48 lbs (dry!!) feels like you're carrying an infant on your hip. Being a Kaliforniastan resident and having a CCW, I really don't have much to complain about.

Besides, I can always grab a second one to keep me from walking in circles.

Thanks for pointing out the silver lining.

[Preacherman]

There are a couple of good, affordable options in .45 ACP.

1. Get a police trade-in, refurbished SIG P220. CDNN had these for a very reasonable price, some with night sights, not too long ago. For under $500 you can have a pistol that many (including myself) consider one of the very best combat pistols out there. Yes, it has an alloy frame, but this has not led to many problems in service.

2. Taurus' new 24/7 in .45 ACP is a very interesting gun. I've never liked Taurus semi-auto's, but this new model impressed me enough that I bought one! It holds 12+1 in .45, has a very acceptable DAO trigger (actually smoother and lighter than the SIG, believe it or not!), and is very ergonomically designed. I like it very much. Price should be in the $400 range.

Both of these guns are about the same weight, and are very "carryable". I'd recommend either option, with the Taurus giving you the additional advantages of higher ammo capacity and a light-rail for a weapon light if you want one.

[Father Knows Best]

I'll second the recommendation of the S&W 1911sc scandium lightweight commander, and add another -- the Para Ordnance LTC alloy. The Para Ordnance LTC alloy and the S&W 1911sc commander are both traditional commander-size 1911's, and both are built on aluminum alloy frames that get the empty weight down to around 27-28 ounces. They hold 7+1 rounds of .45ACP, which is plenty. If you want more ammo, carry a spare mag. The mags are very thin and easy to carry and conceal. The 1911 commander size has proven reliability, and the .45ACP is a proven defensive round. Both the S&W and the P-O are great choices.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'll second the recommendation of the S&W 1911sc scandium lightweight commander, and add another -- the Para Ordnance LTC alloy. The Para Ordnance LTC alloy and the S&W 1911sc commander are both traditional commander-size 1911's, and both are built on aluminum alloy frames that get the empty weight down to around 27-28 ounces. They hold 7+1 rounds of .45ACP, which is plenty. If you want more ammo, carry a spare mag. The mags are very thin and easy to carry and conceal. The 1911 commander size has proven reliability, and the .45ACP is a proven defensive round. Both the S&W and the P-O are great choices.Actually, the S&W Commander Sc comes with 8 round mags, so it's 8+1 capacity.

[Father Knows Best]

Actually, the S&W Commander Sc comes with 8 round mags, so it's 8+1 capacity.

The Para LTC is also technically 8+1 capacity, if you use 8 round mags with it. I never use factory mags with my 1911's, anyway. I prefer to stick with Wilson or McCormick mags, which I've had much better success (reliability) with.

[James T Thomas]

I enjoyed your sense of humor, and the Baby Eagle is one excellent pistol, albeit substantial.

I had the occasion to fire one on a public range here in Pgh, for the first time, only a few weeks ago. The man was generous, and that gun always appealed to me. It too shot so accurate; I was at the 25 yd. range.

Perhaps try carring some balancing or offsetting spare ammo on the other side.

Then, the other recommendations about quality holsters and belts, etc. should be considered as well.

[Wastemore]

good advice guys, I've checked the SC today and it looks like it might be a decent fit, still having trouble dropping 656.00 on an aluminum framed pistol that I'll probably shoot-out in a couple of years. They sure are nice pistols, though..


James,
I'm glad you enjoyed my sense of humor, some don't.. believe me, it's always typed with a smile.

Anyway, I might have found an alternative.. Springfield offers "pro shop employee discounts" that equate to 22% under dealer cost, but I only get to take advantage of that once a year so I have to chose wisely. I'm thinking of grabbing another Champion SS and carrying it, my other is somewhat of a safe queen. I really like the full size frame in a 4inch. As my gunsmith says- " You know what to get and if you ever have to use it you'll be glad you carry it". Pretty much the same thing you said. Besides, condition one turns the women on. :)
As for belt/holster.. I'm carrying in a Ross Leather thumb break with a re-inforced instructors belt, so the pistol is rock solid on me.

You're right, the BE's are amazingly accurate for a stock pistol.. I really like mine.. so much so that I purchased two.

B-

Edit: I wear mine @ 3 O'clock

[The Real Hawkeye]

good advice guys, I've checked the SC today and it looks like it might be a decent fit, still having trouble dropping 656.00 on an aluminum framed pistol that I'll probably shoot-out in a couple of years. They sure are nice pistols, though.. Dude, the S&W Commander Sc frame is NOT aluminum. It's a scandium alloy, which means that it is almost as light as aluminum, but also almost as strong as steel. Much stronger than aluminum, and will last nearly as long as steel.

[James T Thomas]

Scandium is a rare earth metal mostly found in the Urals; Russia.
It had been used in the manufacture of their fighter aircraft skins.
It is used in small quantities -alloyed with Al, and just as small quantities of carbon modify iron to steel, the Scandium so modifies aluminum to the point of strength properties of some steels.

The "aluminum" pistols already existing, are also alloys with other metals.
Example -magnesium to give the Al much stronger properties than unalloyed aluminum.

Now, how about the "Titanium" guns? An aluminum alloy, or pure titanium?
What do you think?

[Wastemore]

Straight from S&W website...


So how does a little scandium produce this remarkable increase in strength in aluminum alloys? Regular aluminum alloys have a grain structure that can be coarse and non-uniform, not a desirable property for yield strength. Even more problematic, this structure has a tendency to weaken over time through use. Adding a tiny amount of scandium to the alloy produces several results, the most important being a new alloy with a much finer grain structure which means greater strength and a reduction or elimination of long-term fatigue effects. The scandium alloy is a material that is lighter in weight than titanium or steel but with tensile strength and fatigue resistance that make it an ideal candidate of firearms fabrication.

I'm sorry, it's a aluminum-alloy with a "tiny amount" of Scandium. Regardless, its aluminum based. Call me old-school, but I don't buy aluminum-alloy-Scandium-Titanum pistols..My bicycle is aluminum-alloy. Cold steel for me, please. Yes, I'm hard headed- my wife will attest to it.
I'm not ragging on a fella who choses to buy aluminum-alloy pistols. Those SC's are certainly pretty and I'm sure they're tack drivers that melt in your hand.
Back in the early 90's I ran across an original S&W model 39(steel frame) for 300 bucks in about 95%, it was my first 9mm and I probably put 10k rounds through that thing. A couple years later I picked up a 39-2(aluminum) since I liked the 39. Over the course of a year(or less) I shot the 39-2 and the 39 was a safe queen. By the time I hit around 3k rounds it became very, very sloppy. This is my only experience with aluminum framed pistols and it probably isn't a fair assessment. I may be hung-up on steel for absolutely no good reason, but I'm hung-up on steel. :neener:


James, I have no doubt that Titanium pistols are not pure Titanium.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Straight from S&W website...




I'm sorry, it's a aluminum-alloy with a "tiny amount" of Scandium. Regardless, its aluminum based. Call me old-school, but I don't buy aluminum-alloy-Scandium-Titanum pistols..My bicycle is aluminum-alloy. Cold steel for me, please. Yes, I'm hard headed- my wife will attest to it.
I'm not ragging on a fella who choses to buy aluminum-alloy pistols. Those SC's are certainly pretty and I'm sure they're tack drivers that melt in your hand.
Back in the early 90's I ran across an original S&W model 39(steel frame) for 300 bucks in about 95%, it was my first 9mm and I probably put 10k rounds through that thing. A couple years later I picked up a 39-2(aluminum) since I liked the 39. Over the course of a year(or less) I shot the 39-2 and the 39 was a safe queen. By the time I hit around 3k rounds it became very, very sloppy. This is my only experience with aluminum framed pistols and it probably isn't a fair assessment. I may be hung-up on steel for absolutely no good reason, but I'm hung-up on steel. :neener:


James, I have no doubt that Titanium pistols are not pure Titanium.My intention was only to correct you on your statement that it will probably shoot out in a couple of years. Scandium/aluminum alloy is to plain old aluminum what steel is to iron. There is a huge difference. Scandium alloy will NOT be shot out in a couple of years. It will outlast most of its owners' life spans.

[Wastemore]

Okay, you aluminum-alloy advocates talked me into it. I DROS'ed my Springfield Micro-Compact Bi-tone today. Really like the size/weight of that thing.

If anyone has any good, bad or ugly about those little buggers, feel free to chime in. I'd love to hear the feedback.

[rsilvers]

Dude, the S&W Commander Sc frame is NOT aluminum. It's a scandium alloy, which means that it is almost as light as aluminum, but also almost as strong as steel. Much stronger than aluminum, and will last nearly as long as steel.

Yes, it is aluminum. It is only 1/10 of 1 percent Scandium.

7075-T7 aluminum like Kimber uses is around 75,000 tensile strength. Smith's alloy appears to be stronger -- around 100,000 psi. It seems to be as strong as 7068, which is a non-Scandium alloy. A good steel is 170,000 to 200,000 psi or more, or 2x as strong as the Smith frame. Scandium only makes the alloy weldable and does not increase its strength. As I said, non-Scandium 7068 is just as strong -- so the use of it my Smith appears to be just for marketing but I am not complaining as it seems better than what anyone else uses. I am getting a 1911-PD next week.

My intention was only to correct you on your statement that it will probably shoot out in a couple of years. Scandium/aluminum alloy is to plain old aluminum what steel is to iron. There is a huge difference. Scandium alloy will NOT be shot out in a couple of years. It will outlast most of its owners' life span

It is strong and should last over 20,000 rounds. Maybe 40,000 rounds.

But no one uses plain aluminum! Everyone uses at least 6061-T6, which is almost 50,000 psi. It is my belief that the Smith frame is 2x as strong as some alloy frames such as the Para Ord LTC.