Chattanooga incident involving National Guard


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marshall3
October 18, 2005, 08:57 AM
This was in the Chattanooga Times/Free Press on Tuesday morning, October 18, 2005...

COMPLAINTS END MILITARY MARCH
Riverwalk training with rubber guns scares civilians
BY MIKE O'NEAL
STAFF WRITER

Some of the Tennessee Army National Guard's freshest recruits had their first road march cut short Saturday when a park ranger ordered them to halt.
The ranger was responding to concerns and questions about the presence of 50 recruits conducting tactical training during a scheduled four-hour march along the Tennessee Riverwalk from Chickamauga Dam to Ross's Landing.
"Of course it took us by surprise that the civilians were upset," said Sgt. lst Class William Ziegler of the Chattanooga-based 196th Field Artillery Brigade. "It may have seemed intimidating, but that was certainly not our intention:"

Some recruits had joined the Guard just days earlier and had not been issued uniforms or boots, but all wore helmets and camouflage face paint and carried replica M-16 rifles made of rubber. It was the realistic-looking guns that caused the greatest concern, said Jim Wigley, facilities superintendent at the Tennessee Riverpark.

"It was just a breakdown in communications," Mr. Wigley said. "We had reports that military personnel were on the trail carrying weapons. No one knew what was going on."

Since the exercise was creating concern for some park users, Mr. Wigley said Park Ranger Don Chandler advised the military unit to stop what it was doing.
Sgt. 1st Class Ziegler said the field exercise was intended to get recruits out of the classroom to learn basic small-unit movement and tactics. He said that when the company reached what would be combat danger areas--such as a creek crossing--the troops practiced proper techniques to secure and cross Riverwalk bridges.

"A few people stopped to watch a bit," Sgt. 1st Class Ziegler said. "Nobody said anything to us directly, though I would have taken the time to explain what we were doing."

Hamilton County spokeswoman Gina Hatler said civilians started asking, 'What's going on?" and were afraid because they saw troops with guns.
"Since the park rangers had no answers, they asked that the exercise be suspended," she said.

Sgt. 1st Class Kevin Hudgins said the rangers never were rude, and he understood they were looking out for others who were using the park.
"It is sad that there is nowhere convenient to train our troops," he said. "This seemed like a natural site with woodlands, a modern environment, civilian areas and mixed terrain."

He said that aside from weapons that from a distance could be mistaken as real, the troops had not disturbed anyone. No pyrotechnics were used, and troops never prevented others from using park facilities. "There was no war gaming. We were teaching tactical maneuvering," he said.

Sgt. 1st Class Hudgins said that the Guard wants "to work out some sort of arrangement with the park, rangers or whomever we need to talk to in order to do it again."

Mr. Wigley said the nearby Chattanooga Navy and Marine Reserve notifies rangers whenever they intend to use the Riverwalk for training.

"With the heightened sense of security concerning terrorism, people worry about anything out of the ordinary" he said. "Our rangers keep the park secure. They were doing their job."

I hope the Guard has more than just RUBBER guns!
Marshall at www.mouseguns.com

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Old Fuff
October 18, 2005, 09:33 AM
Oh dear .... This was a very bad thing ... They went and upset the sheeple. :eek: :rolleyes:

If a situation ever happens where law inforcement breaks down and looting is going on they will be very glad to see the National Guard - with real rifles. :banghead:

TarpleyG
October 18, 2005, 09:38 AM
Holy cow, the military carries weapons?!?!?! OMG!!!

Back in my reserve days, we used to fly our unit to some of our training bases/locations. We used commercial carriers for this but we loaded up on the tarmac. You shoulda seen the faces of some of the sheeple through the windows in the terminals when they saw 100 or so Marines loading up a passenger jet with all sorts of gear and walking up the steps with slung rifles. The flight attendants didn't seem to appreciate it much either.

Greg

larry starling
October 18, 2005, 09:41 AM
Yea, Guess it was to much for the tree hugger's to take. Some rare weed or there private stash might have gotten disturbed or discovered.......:D

Biker
October 18, 2005, 09:57 AM
It would be a horrible thing to be beat to death with 'assault rubbers' wielded by 50 crazed NG FNGs wearing face camo, sweats and tennys. The danger is always there...:uhoh:
Biker

Werewolf
October 18, 2005, 11:30 AM
Some recruits had joined the Guard just days earlier and had not been issued uniforms or boots, but all wore helmets and camouflage face paint and carried replica M-16 rifles made of rubber.This is a key factor in the situation that many here seem to be ignoring.

Imagine you are out in the woods and you see what appears to be a bunch of camouflaged guys not in military uniform out in the woods with what at a glance appears to be M-16 rifles.

What would you think? Huh?

I'd think it was a bunch of right wing militia crazies out training. Not being a sheeple I wouldn't give a hoot one way or the other but put your self into the shoes of Joe and Suzy Sixpack who lean a bit to the left and are out for a stroll with their two kids. Yeah... Get it now? They're gonna be in wonderment mode and it would be all together correct for them to be concerned and ask the local rangers what the hell was going on.

On the other hand it could all just be a vast left wing conspiracy designed to test the reaction of the sheep to the appearance of either the military or militia crazies.... Muhahahaha ;)

LAR-15
October 18, 2005, 11:34 AM
Stupid sheeple

Byron Quick
October 18, 2005, 11:59 AM
If a situation ever happens where law inforcement breaks down and looting is going on they will be very glad to see the National Guard - with real rifles.

Old Fuff,
Every time that I was mobilized after a natural disaster, I was assigned to protect business districts from looting. There we stood with our M16's. Magazines inserted. Empty.



Imagine you are out in the woods and you see what appears to be a bunch of camouflaged guys not in military uniform out in the woods with what at a glance appears to be M-16 rifles.




Only the new recruits were in civilian clothes. The NCO's were in uniform. Me, I'd look at such a group and say to myself,"Self, National Guard unit out training with recent recruits." I'd be more apt to ask a park ranger what was going on if I saw a group that was all in uniform. They might be chasing Osama bin Laden into the park and maybe I could find him before they did.

I hope the people yapping at the park rangers were liberals from some other part of the country. I'd expect more sense from the people of Tennessee.

Old Fuff
October 18, 2005, 05:40 PM
Every time that I was mobilized after a natural disaster, I was assigned to protect business districts from looting. There we stood with our M16's. Magazines inserted. Empty.

Just what I needed to know. :what: I feel much more secure ... :scrutiny:

Henry Bowman
October 18, 2005, 07:02 PM
I hope the people yapping at the park rangers were liberals from some other part of the country. I'd expect more sense from the people of Tennessee.
That was my initial thought as well.

Standing Wolf
October 18, 2005, 07:11 PM
...all wore helmets and camouflage face paint and carried replica M-16 rifles made of rubber.

It was probably the face paint that scared the, uh... individuals.

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 01:07 AM
Just what I needed to know. I feel much more secure ...

Old Fuff, the magazines were empty as far as the chain of command knew. Being as the privates standing in the dark in front of electronic stores and jewelry stores were experienced in the vagaries of our chain of command and knew they didn't care if we were faced with armed looters while unarmed-well, we had each brought a couple of hundred rounds with us.

If the Army really wants to post soldiers on dangerous posts with no ammunition for their weapons, they need to get a weapon chambered for ammunition that can't be procured on the civilian market.

I had a choice: Either be unarmed with the possibility of facing armed opponents or run the risk of court martial if found with unauthorized ammunition. I figured that I could weather the results of a court martial much better than I could weather being dead. Simple decision, really.

Fifteen years ago, I had hopes that the military had recovered from the Mickey Mouse crap that was rampant when I was in the Army Reserves in the late seventies. Events of the past few years have dashed my hopes.

solareclipse
October 19, 2005, 01:30 AM
a whose fault was it that they were out of uniform? the citizens'? :rolleyes:

Langenator
October 19, 2005, 02:03 AM
The unit should have notified the park rangers and the local law enforcement, even if just as a courtesy. True, they don't have to, but it allows the localo LEO to tell the townsfolk what's going on.

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 02:43 AM
a whose fault was it that they were out of uniform? the citizens'?

1) It's not a matter of blame.
2) Only the new recruits, who have not been issued uniforms yet, were out of uniform. The majority of the unit, who were not new recruits, were wearing uniforms.
3) The only blame accruing to the citizens is not using using their head for something besides a hat rack. Personally, I can differentiate between military personnel wearing our nation's various uniforms and people wearing BDU's. Perhaps your average person cannot. If so, I find that fairly amazing for I am by no means an expert on things military and what knowlege I do have is 25 years out of date.

The only things I find to be unusual in the entire situations is:
1) When I was in the Army Reserve, we didn't have recruits drill with us until they returned from Basic and AIT.
2) It was SOP for us to inform the appropriate civilian authorities whenever we were using non-military areas such as state or national parks for any time of drill or exercise.

But, in my opinion, any citizen who cannot tell that a uniformed NCO is military and NOT some militia type-needs to be told when to come in out of the rain. They also need to be closely watched when in the rain to make sure they don't look up and drown.

bg
October 19, 2005, 02:54 AM
Mentioning this area of the U.S, brings to mind what civilians must of
thought when they saw the Armies of the South and later the North
around those parts during the War between the States.

Good luck getting these Armies to stop by a park ranger..:rolleyes:

Sorry, off topic/brain fart again.

44Special
October 19, 2005, 03:41 AM
The unit should have notified the park rangers and the local law enforcement, even if just as a courtesy. True, they don't have to, but it allows the localo LEO to tell the townsfolk what's going on.

They don't have to? Everybody else has to. You can't run a Jeep tour of as few as a dozen Jeeps on public land without a permit. You can't run a trail ride with as few as 20 horses without one; I tried not long ago. It seems to me that you can't hold any kind of organized event in a public park without either some kind of permit or at least notifying the people running the park that such an event is planned. You can argue with whether that ought to be the case or not, but most adults in this country know that's expected of you, and it's poor leadership that this kind of result was not anticipated by the NG leaders.
Good idea for an exercise, though.

Art Eatman
October 19, 2005, 01:33 PM
While I agree with the idea of notification, my attitude is not, "May we use...?" but "We will be using..."

And Byron is being unduly generous to the civilians...

Art

solareclipse
October 19, 2005, 06:20 PM
1) It's not a matter of blame.
2) Only the new recruits, who have not been issued uniforms yet, were out of uniform. The majority of the unit, who were not new recruits, were wearing uniforms.
3) The only blame accruing to the citizens is not using using their head for something besides a hat rack. Personally, I can differentiate between military personnel wearing our nation's various uniforms and people wearing BDU's. Perhaps your average person cannot. If so, I find that fairly amazing for I am by no means an expert on things military and what knowlege I do have is 25 years out of date.

The only things I find to be unusual in the entire situations is:
1) When I was in the Army Reserve, we didn't have recruits drill with us until they returned from Basic and AIT.
2) It was SOP for us to inform the appropriate civilian authorities whenever we were using non-military areas such as state or national parks for any time of drill or exercise.

But, in my opinion, any citizen who cannot tell that a uniformed NCO is military and NOT some militia type-needs to be told when to come in out of the rain. They also need to be closely watched when in the rain to make sure they don't look up and drown.


maybe it's not an issue of can tell, but a matter of should the army be oblivious when conducting exercises on public grounds...

KriegHund
October 19, 2005, 06:40 PM
Heck, i prolly woulda watched them outta interest for their manuevers, not concern.

KriegHund
October 19, 2005, 06:41 PM
This is a key factor in the situation that many here seem to be ignoring.

Imagine you are out in the woods and you see what appears to be a bunch of camouflaged guys not in military uniform out in the woods with what at a glance appears to be M-16 rifles.

What would you think? Huh?

I'd think it was a bunch of right wing militia crazies out training. Not being a sheeple I wouldn't give a hoot one way or the other but put your self into the shoes of Joe and Suzy Sixpack who lean a bit to the left and are out for a stroll with their two kids. Yeah... Get it now? They're gonna be in wonderment mode and it would be all together correct for them to be concerned and ask the local rangers what the hell was going on.

On the other hand it could all just be a vast left wing conspiracy designed to test the reaction of the sheep to the appearance of either the military or militia crazies.... Muhahahaha ;)


Have to agree here, i didnt consider that they werent in uniform.

Devonai
October 19, 2005, 06:53 PM
Whenever the Massachusetts State Guard trains on public land the proper permit is obtained first. When I was in we would occasionally run into other citizens and I never heard of anyone calling to complain. They may have done so, but the complaint never made it to us.

Many states are activating recruit training schools to put pre-basic soldiers through training. New Hampshire is one of them and I attended it for one weekend before shipping out. There are rubber ducks galore and it simply makes more sense from a training and logistical perspective. Nothing beats hosing off your "weapon" for five seconds before turning it in.

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 07:06 PM
maybe it's not an issue of can tell, but a matter of should the army be oblivious when conducting exercises on public grounds...


"can tell"...what are you talking about? You quoted my post. I never said that the park rangers shouldn't have been notified. Please note the sentence marked with a 2 in my post that you quoted.


Have to agree here, i didnt consider that they werent in uniform.

Only the recruits did not have uniforms. The recruits were not the majority.

The remainder were wearing Army uniforms which, duh, are camouflage.

solareclipse
October 20, 2005, 12:01 AM
"can tell"...what are you talking about? You quoted my post. I never said that the park rangers shouldn't have been notified. Please note the sentence marked with a 2 in my post that you quoted.



refer to your 3rd "point"




Only the recruits did not have uniforms. The recruits were not the majority.

The remainder were wearing Army uniforms which, duh, are camouflage.


did they have authorization? them being military does not exempt them from following proper code, regardless of if they can be readily identified.

bottom line is when you bypass procedure, do not complain if you catch smack about it. the laws are there for everyone and nobody is exempt unless such provisions are attached to the law itself.

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 12:32 AM
bottom line is when you bypass procedure, do not complain if you catch smack about it. the laws are there for everyone and nobody is exempt unless such provisions are attached to the law itself

As I posted earlier, I found it strange that civilian authorities had not been notified of the exercise. My unit in the Army Reserve notified the town if we were going to set foot out of our post and march around the block.

I didn't realize that laws were broken by the National Guardsmen? Which laws? Why aren't they being charged?

Boss Spearman
October 20, 2005, 05:01 AM
We're turning into a nation of wussies.

chaim
October 20, 2005, 05:53 AM
I only have a beef with one part of this post-

The only things I find to be unusual in the entire situations is:
1) When I was in the Army Reserve, we didn't have recruits drill with us until they returned from Basic and AIT.


When I joined the Reserves I was able to go to unit drills before going to BCT and AIT. I signed up late '88 and back then, if you sign up for the Reserves (I assume it was the same for the Guard) while in high school you could attend drills before training. I went to drills for about 8 months before I went to training.

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 10:46 AM
chaim,

I was only relating my experience. From 1974. I enlisted in May. I was in Bsic at Ft. Jackson before the next monthly drill in June I don't remember if they offered Delayed Entry back then but I don't remember ever having any recruits who had not attended Basic drill with us from 1974 through 1980. If we did, they were wearing uniforms same as everyone else. I would definitely remember training with people in civilian clothes.

SomeKid
October 20, 2005, 11:58 AM
I, like marshall, reside in the area (though he is a rich man on a Mtn :p ), but I also attended Chattanooga State, which is a community college located right on part of the riverwalk (the Riverwalk itself spans somethng like 12 miles).

Between classes I would occaisionally go for walks out there. I would say that the majority of people who used it were soccer mom types. I often times did my walking in the mornings, so these were not women who had just gotten off a hard days work. Most looked very well off (rings, nice luxury cars) and I would wager have nice rich lawyer/doctor/accountant/$$$ husbands.

I was getting looks as if I did not belong in there little paradise on the river. By no means was I dressed like a hoodlum either. Anyone wanna guess what seeing a bunch of guys dressed as previously described did to the little women?

OH! I didn't mention some of the old people who use it. :cuss: Old folks out watching birds, or just breathing some oxygen before they die make up the second largest set of park patrons. They went and cried at the County Mayor because we lowly college students would sometimes park in some of the parking set aside for the Riverwalk. It wasn't as if we were using it all, I know, I looked. There was a LOT of oldsters who just looked for an excuse to whine. Seeing a bunch of guys doing odd things and ruining their scenic view (after they parked 10 feet from it) probably irked a few of those holier than thou bastards.

Something else to consider, the walk is only open (at least, the part near the college, and I would wager the rest) from 0700-1900. Your average working man isn't going to get a chance to bring his family down there during the week, and maybe not on weekends too. (It is also a no-carry zone thanks to State law, which makes it less fun for any of our types to go for a walk, since we have to disarm to do it legally.) So, who gets to use the ultra-expensive sidewalk? People who either don't have jobs, or don't need them. People who just want to go enjoy themselves. People who don't want, and wouldn't hesitate to complain about, any disturbances to there idyllic little world.

Your average Chattanoogan doesn't care and would likely encourage this. I know I always stepped aside when the NG came jogging through periodically. The reason this problem happened was because the main users of the park are rich, whiny, liberals, and rich whiny retired greedy old people.

Erinyes
October 20, 2005, 12:02 PM
While I agree this is an over-reaction on the part of the people of Chattanooga, something some of y'all might not realize is just what part of the city this is. I'm sure when most of you read "park" in the article, you're thinking wooded, with trails and whatnot. The Riverwalk (the area between Chickamagua Dam and Ross's Landing) is in downtown Chattanooga, a city of 150,000. It's basically a series of well landscaped, paved walkways intended to add a little nature to the center of a medium sized city. The amount of space between the Tennessee River and Amnicola Highway/Riverfront Parkway (A major downtown artery) is never more than quarter mile, and usually closer to 50 yards. So it's a little easier to see how some people might have been a little upset about watching 50 guys marching around with what at first glance appear to be rifles.

Think more "Central Park" and less "Mark Twain National Forest"

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 12:10 PM
Sorry,

I don't care if the NG decides to go jogging in formation on the streets downtown as long as they notify the local authorities first and put out crossing guards.

The folks that get upset at the sight of weapons even in the hands of our military need to see such more often. Eventually, they would get over getting their panties all in a wad. Then they could get on with doing something else idiotic.

SomeKid
October 20, 2005, 12:23 PM
Byron,
Nobody really cared that they jogged, even without a permit, or crossing guards. What happened, was a bunch of liberal soccer mom types, and probably a few annoyed oldsters, called it in. They were conditioned to seeing guns on a cop, and only on a uniformed cop. In TN, the Riverwalk, being a park, is a no-carry zone. It is there little liberal paradise. We need to change that law so I can open carry down there, that will grow them up.

Erinyes
October 20, 2005, 12:25 PM
Sorry,

I don't care if the NG decides to go jogging in formation on the streets downtown as long as they notify the local authorities first and put out crossing guards.

The folks that get upset at the sight of weapons even in the hands of our military need to see such more often. Eventually, they would get over getting their panties all in a wad. Then they could get on with doing something else idiotic.I don't particularly care one way or another what they do. I grew up watching young men in gray t-shirts and camo pants jogging in formation. For the first 11 years of my life, I thought camoflagued humvees drove around every town and guys with M16s were the always the good guys. But even in a Southern city, you have a tendancy to wonder what's up when 50 guys carrying what appear to be rifles go marching about town. Even if you know they're military. It can be worrisome experience if you haven't either grown up on military bases or been a soldier/sailor/marine/airman yourself. I mean, you don't just go drilling around downtown without telling someone. Wondering what the hell the NG's doing marching through a city park apparently armed doesn't make one a sheeple...

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 04:34 PM
Wondering what the hell the NG's doing marching through a city park apparently armed doesn't make one a sheeple...


Not necessarily a sheeple. But whatever the people that called in are, I have to wonder about the status of their congnitive ability. When I see people in a formation, marching or jogging-with or without rifles-I say to myself: military training. On the other hand, if they were digging rifle pits, cutting down trees to clear fields of fire, and setting up claymores amongst the concertina wire-I'd want to know what was going on.

Every now and then, the local NG are out jogging in formation. Sometimes in PT dress, sometimes in full gear, including real rifles. I immediately said to myself,"Normal training." Every summer they load up the self-propelled howitzers and other artillery on flatbeds and move the entire battery out. When that happens, I say to myself,"Going to Ft. Stewart for two week summer drill."

There is a distinct visual difference between normal training activities and a unit that has been deployed expecting trouble. It doesn't take a military expert or a rocket scientist to spot the difference. Once again, if you know people who can't tell the difference, keep a close eye on them. Don't let them handle knives, guns or power equipment. If they have paid no more attention to their surroundings in the time it took to reach adulthood, there is no telling what their level of ignorance is. Do they stop, look, and listen at crosswalks? Can they read traffic signs? Do they know that harassing dogs will probably result in getting bitten?

Personally, I don't think the people complaining were that stupid. I think they were the type of people who were offended that the military had the unmitigated audacity to think that their park should be sullied with such trash as common soldiers. "And it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and Tommy 'ow's your soul?..." Bah.

SomeKid
October 20, 2005, 04:41 PM
Personally, I don't think the people complaining were that stupid. I think they were the type of people who were offended that the military had the unmitigated audacity to think that their park should be sullied with such trash as common soldiers. "And it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and Tommy 'ow's your soul?..."

You got it. Like I said, it is a bunch of uppity liberals who want the park to be thier park. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the college I was attending was right there next to it, and they still looked at me as an oddity, a stain on their beautiful park.

However, when you started talking about Tommy, you lost me. What does Tommy Hilfiger have to do with souls?

magsnubby
October 20, 2005, 06:54 PM
I'd expect more sense from the people of Tennessee.

You mean the ones who kept putting algore back into office?

Byron Quick
October 20, 2005, 09:34 PM
Somekid,

*sigh*:D It's a quotation from the poem "Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling.

Tommy was the nickname for a British soldier. Read it. It's quiet biting.

Tommy
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Here's part of another from Britain's past colonial wars in Afghanistan:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains.
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God as a soldier.

You mean the ones who kept putting algore back into office?

magsnubby,

That was unfortunate. But if you understand Southerners, quite understandable. After what the Republicans did to the South during Reconstruction-and after, there were yellow dog Democrats thick on the ground in the South. It took decades for the Democrats to break them of the habit and I still know a few. Another thing about Southerners is that once they feel indebted to you, they'll vote for your grandson forty years from now even if they have to hold their nose to do it. Al Gore rode his father's coattails in Tennessee for what was probably a national record.

chaim
October 21, 2005, 11:15 AM
If we did, they were wearing uniforms same as everyone else. I would definitely remember training with people in civilian clothes.


You know, when I was going to drills before I went to training I did get issued a uniform (and a bunch of other gear) by the unit. Only the first half day or so was I without a uniform. I do wonder about that part, if the NG was going to have untrained new enlistees train they should have given them at least one set of BDUs and boots first.

PershingRiflesC-7
October 21, 2005, 11:36 AM
Well, if rubber guns set off the timid of Tennessee, I guess I should thank my lucky stars that folk of similar mindset did not call in a full SWAT response on me. In 1983, I was the XO of a field artillery battery in the Oklahoma National Guard that used to take our howitzers and gun crews to the woodlands around the local lake to practice emplacement procedures to improve our performance time needed to get the battery ready to fire. The howitzers were M102A1 105mm towed but we never had ammo unless we were on a base (usually Ft. Sill or Ft. Chaffee) with an impact area.

HankB
October 21, 2005, 11:48 AM
. . . and carried replica M-16 rifles made of rubber. Anyone else bothered even a little bit that our military actually has TOY GUNS in its' inventory? Not just .223/5.56 "poodle shooters" but ACTUAL TOYS?

Art Eatman
October 21, 2005, 02:13 PM
HankB, please. Pretty please with sugar on it: Don't go there!

:D:D:D

Art

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