havent any of us been in an argument?


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thorn726
October 18, 2005, 08:21 PM
between what i hear from the typical anti gunner where i live, and what i just saw about that school board meeting, a question is raised---

haven't plenty of you gotten into arguments, maybe even run into some person you really don't get along with, be shouting even, and never even think of pulling out your gun??

here, carrying is quite illegal, but regardless, i've had some pretty heavy confrontations on the street and i wont even allow it to escalte to violence- if i had a gun present, i dont see myself using it as a shouting accesory.

i would think it is ONLY a last resort defense tool

yet folks are convinced, gun owners get into ANY disagreement, they will use gun to resolve it.

any experiences? MORE- any ideas on how to change this view of us???

also, anyone ever gotten yelled at by some angry person for whatever reason, and walked away rather than pull your gun.........

follow? like is it possible for everyone to have guns at all times and still have disagreements, or are we looking at the OK corral?
i think it is possible without problems

the big factor is gangster idiots who DO think you man your drug turf and keep your respect by shooting, just saw some kids blasting music trying to sell their cds.... "sks and calicos...." just what we need to hear.

anyway, in the inner city, it's a lost cause to think gangbangers will dorp the guns and fight/ debate like men, but at least maybe somehow some people can be convinced, espeically if we have examples-
that REAL gunners use the tool for defense, not offense, and particularly, we don't use guns against words.........

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Ryder
October 18, 2005, 08:39 PM
haven't plenty of you gotten into arguments, maybe even run into some person you really don't get along with, be shouting even

Not that I can recall.

antsi
October 18, 2005, 08:59 PM
I don't get into a lot of shouting matches, but I have gotten upset at people. Being upset is not a reason to shoot people. The reason liberals expect gun owners to start shooting every time they get into a disagreement is because they are ruled by their emotions and have no self-control. It's why they want the government to run their lives for them, and also why they imagine us (gun owners) lashing out mindlessly with any weapon available any time someone rubs us the wrong way.

spacemanspiff
October 18, 2005, 09:04 PM
we just arent as out-of-control of our anger as the whiny liberals wish we were.

Ezekiel
October 18, 2005, 09:18 PM
yet folks are convinced, gun owners get into ANY disagreement, they will use gun to resolve it.

"I've seen it happen."

Now, these folks were felons, and shouldn't be armed anyway (Federal sentence), but were they felons the first time?

"Normal" gun owners are readily compared to these guys: which is why we must differentiate ourselves.

XLMiguel
October 18, 2005, 10:25 PM
I'm opinionated, sometimes mouthy, and not shy. I can articulate my position, substantiate it, argue some, try to recognize the presence of other intelligence in the room, but at some point, I'm also pretty good at just agreeing to disagree or walking away from stupid/rude/uncivil/ recalcitrant people - it's not worth it.

I learned a while ago that fighting doesn't solve anything, the satifaction from smacking a moron who desparately needs it is very fleeting (and the follow-on is usually real annoying), and the only real reason to fight is self-defense. Walking away is easy - I have nothing to prove to anyone and here are only a few people's opinions about me that I actually care about. If it's a genuine self-defense situation, I get pretty vicious, pretty quickly - I don't start it, but I will finish it. Fortunately, such events have been few and far between in my life.

Edited to add: Getting a CHP has enhanced my ability to walk away, a direct result of trainng and educating myself on my rights and responsibilities involving lethal force. And as noted previously, there's no point in arguing with a fool - they drag you down totheir level and beat you with experience.

pcf
October 18, 2005, 10:44 PM
Thorn726, maybe you should start carrying an axe. I'm sure bloody stumps will regret not having a firearm, when you start ending the argument. Okay, maybe not a good plan.

Standing Wolf
October 19, 2005, 12:06 AM
yet folks are convinced, gun owners get into ANY disagreement, they will use gun to resolve it.

They've been predicting the streets will run with blood for years and years and years. Still hasn't happened. No doubt never will.

CAnnoneer
October 19, 2005, 12:17 AM
I can't see how guns correlate with arguments. Arguments are verbal, guns are physical. The difference is pretty clear-cut in my mind. I concur with above statements that ultimately it is a question of self-control and mental clarity. Only kids and drunks equate an insult with a punch.

Capteddie
October 19, 2005, 12:27 AM
To say "Gun owners" will do anything, is an extreme over generalization. It's like saying "Car owners" will run over some one they argue with. There are responsible and irresponsible gun owners, just as there are responsible and irresponsible car owners. Criminals own guns, cops own guns, soldiers own guns, and law abiding citizens like me who just want to be left the hell alone own guns, so to use the term "Gun owners" is to paint with an awfully wide brush don't cha think :confused:

gunsmith
October 19, 2005, 12:28 AM
I carried all the time in SF and Bezerkley, got into lots of arguments over my GW stickers on my motorcycle, sporting the american flag pin on my lapel.
Had wannabe gang members try to start fights with me when I lived in North Beach (every weekend is a brawl there).
I carried all the time and never even thought of using it despite tons of arguments and threats of violence.

you know....this post just reminded me how great it is living in America.
I will never move back to SF untill we get the 2nd Amendment as the law of the land

Kurush
October 19, 2005, 12:34 AM
I for one brutally murder every person I have a disagreement with, that's just the values that were instilled in me growing up.

wingnutx
October 19, 2005, 01:45 AM
Last shouting match I got into, all 3 of us involved were carrying full-auto weapons.

Nobody got shot or even threatened with a firearm.

thorn726
October 19, 2005, 02:41 AM
this is pretty much what i am getting at=
I carried all the time in SF and Bezerkley, got into lots of arguments over my GW stickers on my motorcycle, sporting the american flag pin on my lapel.
Had wannabe gang members try to start fights with me when I lived in North Beach (every weekend is a brawl there).
I carried all the time and never even thought of using it despite tons of arguments and threats of violence.

Last shouting match I got into, all 3 of us involved were carrying full-auto weapons.

Nobody got shot or even threatened with a firearm.


so how do we get people to realize this is how the majority are?

its amazing, but people around here really seem to think people who buy guns use them in arguments

I for one brutally murder every person I have a disagreement with, that's just the values that were instilled in me growing up.
ha HA ha

thorn726
October 19, 2005, 02:45 AM
law abiding citizens like me who just want to be left the hell alone own guns, so to use the term "Gun owners" is to paint with an awfully wide brush don't cha think

uh, YEAH one would think i AM using an awfully wide brush!!!

i guess we'll see how wide the brush really is around here after the election.

i am hoping we a re not all seen this way, but so far, the number one, vast majority reaction in the bay area is "guns are dangerous, they are only for killing, they arn't effective for self defense, they only escalte"

on and on until you want to throw up, bang your head against a wall, and get murdered by some jerk with a knife just to prove your point.
ok im going a little overboard there.........

artherd
October 19, 2005, 03:51 AM
yet folks are convinced, gun owners get into ANY disagreement, they will use gun to resolve it.

Most people do this thing called projection.

Where they think about what THEY would do with a gun, and apply it to everyone else!

geekWithA.45
October 19, 2005, 10:27 AM
A few years back, a guy down the block decided to loudly yell at and berate me in public, after my puppy still in training had gotten away from me for the umpteenth time. He heard me calling for the dog, and followed him to my house, where he stood about 15 yards away on the neighbor's property carrying on at length.

He never knew it, but I was well armed at the time.


At no time did I consider shooting him because he was yelling at me.

As the encounter turned increasingly bizarre, I took a quick look around to determine that my lines of retreat were clear, and picked out a few fallback points, but that was about it.

After he refused several reasonable offers to square it up by seeing to whatever poop was on his lawn, I flat out told him that since he seemed to be more interested in shouting at me in public than in dealing with the issue at hand that I was leaving, and that he was to have a good evening.

-------------------

As for "how to change this view of us", you have to realize that this view actually has NOTHING to do with US.

It is held as a direct result of defects of the viewholder.

It is correctable only when the viewholder is acting out of ignorance, AND is willing to update his view upon presentation of evidence to the contrary.

_Sometimes_, this actually happens, as the result of the viewholder interacting with responsibly armed citizens. Usually, if this comes about, it happens when they get the news that someone they know/trust/respect keeps and bears on a regular basis. More often than not, though, they'll classify their friend as "the exception", and continue to hold the general view that people carry arms to prevail in disputes.

There are also many other reasons why people might hold this view, but there's not a whole lot we can do about them without thorozine and a Psych license.

SgtGunner
October 19, 2005, 10:49 AM
I remember a time, I was at a friends mom's 82nd birthday party. Her brother was in town. Fat sloppy little troll of a liberal, and has been living with mommy since high school never had a "real" job(hes 42)

Anyway, somehow the topic of gun control came up. We "discussed" it for a while and when I realized he was a complete moron I told him so poiltely. At that point he thought it wise to grab my shirt by the collar and start irrationally screaming in my face, I calmly and politely made it known that if he did not remove his hand from me I would remove it from him. To this he says , "see what I mean, all of you gun guys are violent and insane" (as hes grabbing me by the shirt mind you) This man came close that day to eating his teeth, but being the controlled person I am, I was well aware that he was not equipped mentally or physically to defend himself.

Did I fight, threaten or pull out the 1911 that was on my hip the whole time? No. Did he know I was armed? NO. So much for the OK Corral.

Oldtimer
October 19, 2005, 12:14 PM
I've been married for 35 years, and I can't recall EVER having an argument with my wife! Sure, we have had some DISAGREEMENTS through the years, but never of the "heated" variety.

I've also carried a concealed weapon for 35+ years, as a full-time police officer and as a retired officer. Resorting to "deadly force" has always been on my list of options, but only if several other things have clicked into my brain....such as deadly force being "reasonable", "justifiable", "necessary" and the "ONLY" thing left in the "trick bag" to use!

Maybe it was the countless hours of training that I went through, as a police officer.....or maybe it boils down to having good common sense! It is pure idiocy to resort to deadly force just because someone pisses you off! Of course, if THEY escalate the situation by producing a weapon, then arguing time is OVER!

thorn726
October 19, 2005, 03:44 PM
you know, im really starting to think maybe i should cut and paste this thread.
what is wrong with people. obviously, we CAN get heated and still not pull out a gun. great stuff guys

this one is great- shoulda beaten the guy sensless with your hands.
Anyway, somehow the topic of gun control came up. We "discussed" it for a while and when I realized he was a complete moron I told him so poiltely. At that point he thought it wise to grab my shirt by the collar and start irrationally screaming in my face, I calmly and politely made it known that if he did not remove his hand from me I would remove it from him. To this he says , "see what I mean, all of you gun guys are violent and insane" (as hes grabbing me by the shirt mind you) This man came close that day to eating his teeth, but being the controlled person I am, I was well aware that he was not equipped mentally or physically to defend himself.

Did I fight, threaten or pull out the 1911 that was on my hip the whole time? No. Did he know I was armed? NO. So much for the OK Corral.


Most people do this thing called projection.

Where they think about what THEY would do with a gun, and apply it to everyone else!

excellent point

one-shot-one
October 19, 2005, 03:59 PM
Did I fight, threaten or pull out the 1911 that was on my hip the whole time? No. Did he know I was armed? NO. So much for the OK Corral.

if you had not had the pistol on you would you have been more likely to teach this guy the lesson that he so desperately need to learn?
i find that i am less likely to even acknowalge some folk when i am armed but if i am not the desire to "school" them is sometimes great.

Johnnybgood
October 19, 2005, 04:00 PM
Is to purchase and run a major news/entertainment network and start showing pro-gun news and shows. Especially cop shows that portrays the legal CHL carrier in a positive light. The problem that you are looking at is just that the media is biased against us and will not give us equal time.

GunGoBoom
October 19, 2005, 04:20 PM
That's why many anti-gun people became anti-gun in the first place. They make the huge logical error that I'll call "projection".

They think, either consciously or even subconsciously, that "ya know, if *I* had a gun, and *I* got into a heated argument, the *I* would definitely or quite possibly draw my gun to emphasize my point, or if really really angered, even use it." They then project this fact (related solely to their own extreme character flaw of the inability to curtail their actions with correct choices - i.e. control their temper) onto others, and thereby mistakenly assume that "if I'm this way, I'm sure most if not all others are too". For some reason, people's natural tendency is to project in this manner. So they then support policies which would disarm ALL people, even those who can control themselves, and distinguish between an argument, and a life-threatening self-defense situation, when the proper course of action would be to choose to not be armed themselves (which they do), yet leave everyone else the hell alone (which they don't). Of course, y'all already knew that...

walking arsenal
October 19, 2005, 04:53 PM
being upset is not a reason to shoot people.

It's not?:confused:

I mean:uhoh:

It's not! :eek:

kbarrett
October 19, 2005, 04:59 PM
Most people do this thing called projection.

Where they think about what THEY would do with a gun, and apply it to everyone else!

Yep.

If you want to run people's lives for them, then you will probably assume that any armed person wants to do the same to you. Scratch a victim-disarmament supporter, and you will ALWAYS discover a control-freak or an out of control loon...

Sounds like a good .sig line ... I think I'll use it.

wingnutx
October 19, 2005, 05:09 PM
if you had not had the pistol on you would you have been more likely to teach this guy the lesson that he so desperately need to learn?

i find that i am less likely to even acknowalge some folk when i am armed but if i am not the desire to "school" them is sometimes great.


Makes sense.

If you choose to carry a pistol, you relinquish your ability to defend your honor from common scumbags.-GRD, thefiringline.com


i.e. you have more of a duty not to escalate a simple conflict.

CAS700850
October 19, 2005, 05:13 PM
Last shouting match I got into, all 3 of us involved were carrying full-auto weapons.

Nobody got shot or even threatened with a firearm.

Funny, that was the last time I had a really hot shouting match, when all involved were armed with full auto, shorty shotguns, and/or handguns. Arguing the law with SWAT guys before a raid.

Maybe that's it. We don't use the guns when we argue, but maybe the gunas make us argue! YEah, that's it. Right. Sure. :p

Rezin
October 19, 2005, 05:16 PM
I found I act more responsibly now that I carry all the time. Where I may offer a finger, or shout at some doofus that desperatley needed it, now, I smile and shake my head, and carry on.

So far, I'd say CCW has improved, rather than degraded my reactions to idiocy. I hope that this will always be the case.

losangeles
October 19, 2005, 05:19 PM
I like what someone said that guns don't correlate with arguments. Those other guys are probably thinking about gangbangers in the hood where that statement can't be made, but are overgeneralizing to everybody.

Ezekiel
October 19, 2005, 05:40 PM
Most people do this thing called projection.

Where they think about what THEY would do with a gun, and apply it to everyone else!

This leads to the natural argument that most people should not be armed. :( (i.e., if most people are projecting their own inability to "handle" firearms responsibily, they [most people] should be "disarmed".)

Does using the Projection Theory merely undermine our position? :uhoh:

I completely agree with the theory of projection and, thusly, am running around in circles in my mind...

wingnutx
October 19, 2005, 05:43 PM
Nothing says that most people project like this on this issue. It's just a vocal minority.

geekWithA.45
October 19, 2005, 05:48 PM
Carriage of arms is not for small spirited, insecure people with chips on their shoulders.

orionengnr
October 19, 2005, 06:27 PM
I have seen the numbers somewhere. Both Florida and Texas keep track of (and post) the number of CHL/CCW licenses issued, and the number of CHL/CCW holders who subsequently get their licences revoked, and the reason why (e.g., carrying in a restricted area, assault, unlawfully shooting someone). If memory serves, the latter number is so small as to be essentially zero.
That pretty effectively refutes the "blood in the streets" scenarios and provides a counterpoint to "projection".

SgtGunner
October 20, 2005, 12:36 AM
if you had not had the pistol on you would you have been more likely to teach this guy the lesson that he so desperately need to learn?
i find that i am less likely to even acknowalge some folk when i am armed but if i am not the desire to "school" them is sometimes great.
__________________


if I were honest with myself, as much as I pride myself on self control; I do not tolerate ANYONE laying hands on me. If I wasn't carrying that day I think it is more than reasonable to assume I would have very handily handed this man his ass. Thankfully tis a rare day I go about unarmed, and I honestly think because I am armed I excersize more restraint that I normally would. Fact is when I am armed, I am responsible for the image every one of us is saddled with. i.e. I do somethin boneheaded it gets heaped onto all gun owners and makes us all look like fools, that is a hell of a responsibility in my book.

orionengnr
October 20, 2005, 08:09 AM
and I agree wholeheartedly.

longeyes
October 20, 2005, 12:33 PM
It's projection: their own inner violence directed outward. The lefty gun-grabbers suffer from distemper and hyper-emotionalism. Waste of time to try and change that.

one-shot-one
October 20, 2005, 01:53 PM
good, glad to know i'm not alone in my feelings even tho i rarely follow through on them. the temptation is sometimes great.;)

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