[Jacobus Rex]

If you could change one thing about the 1911 design, what would it be?

For me it would be the ability to operate the slide with the safety engaged. I never have liked having to load/unload the gun with the safety off. I know you cannot do it because of the design but it is my choice for something that I'd have done different. :D

[SgtGunner]

I would change absolutely nuthin...I think ole JMB knows a bit more about the design than I do.

Having said that I wish the milspecs didnt "bite" so hard, but someone else already fixed that.:neener:

[Black Majik]

Honestly, I cant think of ANYTHING to change on the design itself.

As for the original thread starter's idea of racking the slide with the safety on, I gotta disagree with that. I actually like the slide being locked with the thumb safety engaged. The smaller Colt .380s are rackable with the safety engaged... and that BUGS me! :D

Perfect the way it is.

Now, I think about what would be a perfect 1911, and whatever I dont like with the 1911 I can replace with aftermarket parts. If I wanted a lighter gun, I can get a 1911 in scandium, aluminum and even polymer. If I wanted longer controls, theres longer thumb safeties, grip safeties, slide stops etc...

Beveled magwell not good enough? Blend a S&A magwell or EB, LB magwell on it.

Want a new look? Easy.

NWIW 1911s.... :D

[Mulliga]

Commander style hammer on the standard 1911. I see no benefit to the spur hammer (perhaps easier cocking and decocking, but you're not supposed to use a 1911 like that anyway).

[Dienekes]

A while back there was some custom work doing grip reductions "slim-lining" on 1911s. Something similar seems to be going on with SA's version in .45 GAP. I do ok with the standard gun but I have had 46 years of shooting them to get used to it.

[Kurush]

I'd make it a double action with a plastic frame.

http://webpages.charter.net/connectingzone/naughty/8.gif

:D

[Solo]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/Blasphemy.jpg

[MICHAEL T]

Nothing needs changed. Its all this changing that is screwing it it. Go back to orginal specs as built for military and use ball ammo as designed. It was made as a fighting pistol not a target or race gun I never had a 45 while in Army jam in any way, in the 13 years I was in military . A 1911 was my main weapon most of those years.

[yorec]

I wouldn't change the gun itself... But I'd change the preconceived notion that it can not be improved from the original 95+/- year old design... Yep - let's get beyond that WWI stuff and go modern with a classic design that's still number one!

8 rds is OK, beveled magazine wells are actual improvements, adjustable sights really work not to mention tritium, stainless or pakarizing though not original finishes still work well, frames other than steel just might have advantages, etc, etc, etc... :neener: :neener:

[MachIVshooter]

I love the 1911 but I would like to see series 80 type firing pin safeties abolished, and more manufacturers need to offer models with squared trigger gaurds. Otherwise, it is simply the sexiest pistol out there.

[Rob96]

Fine the way it is.

[1911Tuner]

Two things...

I'd use left-hand threads for the grip bushings and mill a shallow recess into the frame to add support the plunger tube. I think Caspian does that now.

Jacobus...The thumb safety was designed to lock the slide for a very good reason. Although Army regulations discouraged continuous Condition One carry, the cavalrymen were instructed to place it in Con-1 if action was iminent. Sometimes, action was anticipated, but the lads still had things to do that required both hands, and they had to reholster the weapon in the interim. The safety lock insured that the slide wouldn't be pushed out of battery...and due to the adverse and filthy conditions that often occur on the battlefield...possibly not snapping back INTO battery when the weapon was drawn. Last thing they wanted was a surprise non-functioning weapon
when the storm began...on the back of a scared horse.

Clearing a weapon off-safe isn't an issue if ya just mind the Finger/Trigger
and Safe Direction rules. Gotta clear it in the house? A two-foot thick stack of dry newspapers is a neat solution.

[ruger270man]

I'd make it look like this:

http://www.glock.com/g17.jpg

:neener:

[Jubei]

The only thing I would change is that I would make them:


ALL MINE!

But that's just me bein' greedy.:D

Jubei

[45auto]

Eliminate the grip safety. ;)

Same design, just an "access" panel so to speak. Locks in with the mainspring housing...otherwise known as "pinning" the grip safety.

[LoadedDrum]

I would like to see some one come up with a way to simplify the way the barrel locks up. Perhaps a design with all fixed parts the way a Glock locks up.

[Zach S]

I'd use left-hand threads for the grip bushings
+1!

[The Drew]

I would like to see some one come up with a way to simplify the way the barrel locks up. Perhaps a design with all fixed parts the way a Glock locks up.

I think the simplified lockup would be closer to a cz 75 with the barrel lugs and all. Not sure but the BHP might have it as well...

[Shipwreck]

I think it would be nice if there was a decocker on the gun.

[JoeHatley]

I'd use left-hand threads for the grip bushings

Ditto!!!!!

Joe

[1911Tuner]

Joe, mah fren...You'd be surprised at the number of people who can't see the logic in that.:D

Wouldn't do away with the grip safety. As a practitioner of Cocked'n'Locked
carry, I like the idea of an extra stumblin' block between Murphy and my ol' skinny arse.:p

[waterhouse]

I got to handle a really old Colt that I was transfering to a customer the other day.

Man, those sights are tiny. I like the low profile, bigger sights that are on a lot of guns these days. I know the old sights can be used against your belt or whatever to rack the slide one handed, but I had no idea how hard it was to find that front sight until I picked up that old Colt.

What do you gain by having left handed threads for the grip bushings? (yep, I'm one of those people)

[pax]

See the quote in my sig du jour.

pax

The only thing wrong with the 1911 pistol is that it is just too big for some hands. The only thing it really needs is a smaller butt, as with some entertainers we could name. -- Jeff Cooper

[dxkj21]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30159&stc=1&d=1129739786

[1911Tuner]

Waterhouse,

Ever gone to remove the grips on a 1911, and...due to neglect/rust or some gorilla overtightening the screws...had a bushing (or two) back out with the screw? Many, many times, me.:banghead:

If the bushings had left-hand threads, backing out on a stubborn screw would
tighten the bushing instead of tearing it loose from its moorings. Staking the bushing with left hand-threads, and being just a little careful about the torque one uses to tighten the screws would solve that problem neatly.

[f4t9r]

Change nothing on the 1911 its Great !!!!!
want diff stuff, buy something else or make a new gun the 2005

[waterhouse]

thanks Tuner, that makes a lot of sense. I can't say it has ever happened to me, but it sounds like it is one of the "when", not "if", problems that I'll run into at some point in life.

[Stinkyshoe]

Why the LH bushings guys?

[Dr.Rob]

I like the pre A1 design... long trigger wide checkered hammer, don't like the flat MSH... why wasn't there a smooth arched MSH?

The factory sights on the old Colts were tiny, but they work.

[W Turner]

Tuner- +1 on the left hand threaded bushings....

Only other things I would change would be that the 7/8 size versions that were produced for .38 Auto ( I think, or maybe it was 9mm) would go back into production and I really wish someone would make a true polymer framed, single stack 1911. Not that Alchemy Spectre abortion or the STI/SVI?Wilson/Kimber/BUL double stacks. I mean a real polymer frame that is styled just like the steel framed original.


Other than that, anything else is within the realm of what is already being done.


W

[baker]

LH bushings AND a better way to attach the plunger tube!

[Stinkyshoe]

(So what do the Lefthand bushings do? Sorry to ask again:rolleyes: )

I would say a mag well and beavertail would be necessary changes.

[sabre2]

I was wondering about changing the job of the grip safety. Make the grip safety interlock with the manual safety so the manual safety can't be inadvertantly turned off. That way you can't look down and notice a cocked and unlocked situation. So, in other words, you can only unlock the manual safety with the grip safety activated. I don't know if you would want the grip safety to still function in its original role or not.
Just brainstorming here,
john

[Black Majik]

I was wondering about changing the job of the grip safety. Make the grip safety interlock with the manual safety so the manual safety can't be inadvertantly turned off. That way you can't look down and notice a cocked and unlocked situation. So, in other words, you can only unlock the manual safety with the grip safety activated. I don't know if you would want the grip safety to still function in its original role or not.
Just brainstorming here,
john

Hmm... possibly good idea, BUT.. that would make press checking more dangerous.

I wouldn't want to hold down the grip safety to click off the thumb safety so I can press check my 1911.

[Moonclip]

As already mentioned. The bushings are a bit weird, the plunger tube is a weak point, and many feel the extractor is also a weak point though I associate the external extractor "improvement" with cheaper guns like Llamas that have had them for years, I'm sure because of relaibilty and not because they are probably cheaper to manufacture possibly:rolleyes:

[Boss Spearman]

I'd make it like the Hi Power. I absolutely despise taking a 1911 apart for cleaning. I hate the guide rod stuff out the front.

[Bullet Bob]

Here's an echo for doing away with the grip safety. IF I remember correctly, Mr. Browning did not include one on his original desigh, but the military insisted on one.

[pauli]

biggest thing i'd do away with is the fanboys ;)

i'm pondering whether or not i should respond in this thread, as i just don't work well with 1911's... but i guess i'll list things that might help that.

i like the sound of using the grip safety to lock the manual safety, so long as the grip safety also continued to act as it currently does.

i would completely redo the takedown method. basically, i want it to take down like an xd - swing a lever, rack the slide, remove spring, remove barrel. i borrowed a 1911 over the weekend, and took it by the range to have someone show me how to take it apart, and i was left... somewhat bewildered. i was actually left glad that i normally shoot a p22 o_O

it seems like it's easier for me to get a good grip on most double stack 9mm's than on a single stack 45 1911. this is silly.

[Zach S]

I really wish someone would make a true polymer framed, single stack 1911. Not that Alchemy Spectre abortion or the STI/SVI?Wilson/Kimber/BUL double stacks. I mean a real polymer frame that is styled just like the steel framed original.
IIRC STI makes a single-stack grip frame for their 2011s.

[1911Tuner]

Here's an echo for doing away with the grip safety. IF I remember correctly, Mr. Browning did not include one on his original desigh, but the military insisted on one.

Nope. It was actually the thumb safety that the Army wanted. Browning
felt that the grip safety was adequate.

[nero45acp]

External extractor.



nero

[Gunsnrovers]

I'll throw in with the improved plunger and LH bushing threads crowd.

[Jiml3]

I agree with pauli regarding the take down. My Sigs have a take down lever which is a lot simpler and easier especially when reassembeling it. It would require changing the lockup system internally, but so what, it would be a welcome improvement!

[Peter M. Eick]

Simple, Change the bushing threads so they don't back out (like was posted many times above).

The rest of the gun is fine "as is".

[Longbow]

I would like it to have a Ti frame (weight reduction) with a safety plunger tube incorporated on it, a good pair of sights (dovetailed preferrably) and a bavertail safety. Thats all.

[Colt]

The safety lock insured that the slide wouldn't be pushed out of battery...and due to the adverse and filthy conditions that often occur on the battlefield

Exactly. I have a Mustang, which pretty much looks like a mini 1911, minus the grip safety. The slide can be cycled while the safety is engaged; there's no safety cut-out in the slide.

The advantage is that the gun can be cleared with the safety on. The disadvantage is that when holstering the gun, you have to keep a thumb on the back of the slide to prevent it from moving out of battery. (especially if the holster is a snug fit.) Also, if someone were to grab the gun in an attempt to take it from you, they could push the slide out of battery, preventing you from firing through their hand.

[SpookyPistolero]

Holy cow, Tuner, he felt the grip safety was adequate? I am guessing military practice must have been to keep the chamber empty when carried? Pretty interesting tidbit either way...

[brickboy240]

I wish they would not make it such an appealing platform...then I would not own three of the bastards and STILL want more.

Yeah, throw a de-cocker in there, add a plastic frame, double action and maybe a long, gritty trigger...THEN I would stop spending money on these blasted things!

Brother Browning, you were a genius.

The 1911 is flat out cool, as is and timeless to boot!

- Brickboy240

[Missouri Mule]

The only things I would change would be to make the plunger tube integral with the frame and the grip bushing thread thing.
Other wise it is perfect!

The only REAL problems that exist with the the 1911 platform pistol today are the result of lawyers!! ie. S80 and swartz safeties.....

[enfield]

One thing, no.

Two things, yes. Double action and no safeties.

But then it would be a Sig.

[Correia]

My gosh! I'm glad some of you guys aren't gun designers! :D Thank goodness for John Moses Browning.

[Edgeofthewoods]

On my Springfield, nothing from what St. Browning did.

Chuck

[1911Tuner]

(So what do the Lefthand bushings do? Sorry to ask again:rolleyes: )

I would say a mag well and beavertail would be necessary changes.

Howdy Stinker,

To keep the bushings from backing out with the screw. There's a little more in-depth info on the question here on the thread...somewhere...:cool:

Double-Action and external extractors??? Oh please...:rolleyes:

Make it easier to field-strip? Gimme a break...The thing can be detail-stripped in less than two minutes...without tools... and reassembled in three. Okay...5 minutes for reassembly if it's a Series 80 Colt and ya need a slave pin. :neener:

[HD]

omg , where do i start ?
do away with the link and barrel bushing,the gripsafety,the thumbsafety,the extractor, the barrel lugs... oh hell, i wish i had more time to work on this ...
maybe later , the only things i wouldn't change are the feel/balance/configuration...

[Bullet Bob]

History of the M1911 Pistol

We identify genius by its impact. It changes things and its vision endures. In the world of firearms, there is one designer whose work changed everything and endures, John Moses Browning. Browning is most frequently remembered as the designer of the 1911 .45 ACP and the Browning High Power, but he also created the Winchester 30-30, The Winchester Pump Shotgun, The Browning Auto-5 Shotgun (produced by Remington as the Model 11), The BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) and the Browning .50 caliber Machine Gun, plus most of the .30 cal and .50 cal machine guns produced by Colt and used in WW II. He is credited with 128 gun patents, and some fifty million sports and military weapons were manufactured from those patents during the forty-seven years he was an active inventor.

During the same time frame that John Browning was putting the Winchester Repeating Arms Company on the map, a highly motivated tribe of warriors, known as the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army fits in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro used a combination of body binding with leather, narcotics, and religious ritual to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness which left them insensible to injury. Soldiers found that their revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt simply would not stop the Moro. It should be noted that their .30 Krag rifles didn't do a whole lot better against these warriors.

John Browning began to experiment with self-loaders in 1889, inspired by Hiram S. Maxim who had invented a machine gun six years earlier. Browning converted a Winchester 1873 lever-action to an autoloader by using the action of the gases at the muzzle. A machine gun using this same operating principle was built in 1890 and 1891. From this work evolved a machine gun design ultimately built and sold by Colt as the Model 1895 machine gun, popularly called the "Browning Potato Digger" because of its downward arcing, gas-operating piston system. Browning's first self-loading pistol was also a gas-operated weapon.

Based on the experience with the Moros and extensive testing on animals and human cadavers, an Army Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson (inventor of the Thompson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, determined that the Army needed a .45 caliber cartridge to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar in dimension to the .38 Super. When the Army requested designs for a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this .38 autoloader to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet, and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.

The selection trials began in 1906 and Browning's pistol faced competition from pistols submitted by Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill and Smith & Wesson. Browning's design and the Savage design were selected in 1907. The Army called for additional tests of function and reliability which revealed that neither Colt's nor Savage's offerings had reached the desired perfection. The Ordnance Department instituted a series of further tests and experiments, which eventually resulted in the appointment of a selection committee in 1911.

Browning was determined to prove the superiority of its handgun, so he went to Hartford to personally supervise the production of the gun. There he met Fred Moore, a young Colt employee with whom he worked in close cooperation trying to make sure that each part that was produced for the test guns was simply the best possible. The guns produced were submitted again for evaluation to the committee. A torture test was conducted on March 3rd, 1911. The test consisted of having each gun fire 6000 rounds. One hundred shots would be fired and the pistol would be allowed to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled. After firing those 6000 rounds, the pistol would be tested with deformed cartridges, some seated too deeply, some not seated enough, etc. The gun would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and some more tests would then be conducted.

During the trials, several alterations were made to the original design such as a single swinging link, an improved manual safety, and the inclusion of a grip safety and a slide stop. The other significant change was to the grips, which were angled more acutely and lengthened slightly.
In its final form, the M1911 was a locked-breech, single-action semi-automatic pistol. It was chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge and had a magazine capacity of seven rounds. Its weight unloaded was 39 ounces; overall length was 8.25"; the height was 5.25". Sights were fixed, although the rear sight was housed in a dovetail slot that allowed it to be drifted either left or right for windage adjustments. The pistols were finished in blue and fitted with checked wood stocks.

Browning's pistols passed the whole test series with flying colors. It was the first firearm to undergo such a test, firing continuously 6000 cartridges, a record broken only in 1917 when Browning's recoil-operated machine gun fired a 40000 rounds test.

The report of the evaluation committee (taken from "The .45 Automatic, An American Rifleman Reprint," published by the National Rifle Association of America) released on the 20th of March 1911 stated :

"Of the two pistols, the board was of the opinion
that the Colt is superior, because it is more
reliable, more enduring, more easily disassembled
when there are broken parts to be replaced, and
more accurate."

On March 29th, 1911, the Browning-designed, Colt-produced .45 Automatic pistol, was selected as the official sidearm of the Armed Forces of U.S.A., and named Model 1911.

When we entered the Great War, the U.S. government had purchased some 140,000 M1911 pistols from both Colt and Springfield Armory. The Armory tooled up in 1913 to make M1911s and help fill initial orders. Altogether some 31,000 M1911s were built at Springfield prior to the U.S. entry into World War I. To meet wartime requirements, they made 45,000 more, all in 1918.

Guns made for these production runs were all stamped UNITED STATES PROPERTY on the frame. The slide carried the inscription MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY. Production runs increased when the World War I started and continued to increase through 1918. By May 1918, it had increased to 1,000 per day. The summer months of 1918 saw an increase to 2,200 per day.

To meet the needs of our expanding armed forces, 1917 planners estimated that a total of 765,000 pistols would be required. The estimate was later revised upward, first to 1.3 million and then to 2.7 million.

Filling the projected needs meant that pistols would have to be made by contractors other than Colt. Thus orders were placed with Remington-UMC, Winchester, Burroughs Adding Machine Co., Lanston Monotype Machine Co., National Cash Register Co., A.J. Savage Munitions Co., Savage Arms Co., and two Canadian firms, Caron Brothers Mfg. Co., and North American Arms Co., Ltd. Of those firms, only Remington-UMC delivered any meaningful quantity (22,000 of 150,000 ordered). North American did make some pistols, but the total was probably less than 100.

A number of foreign companies or governments were licensed to manufacture the Colt-Brownings in a variety of calibers. It is interesting to note that Colts at one time were produced under the direction of the Nazi government. In 1915 the Norwegian government was licensed to manufacture the pistols. When Nazi troops occupied Norway in World War II, they ordered the government arsenal to start production. The Nazi's planned to use the pistol to arm their occupying forces. However, only about 1,000 guns were produced in 1941 and 1942.

After World War I, the Army's Ordnance Department evaluated the Colt .45's combat performance. They recommended the following changes:

1. Wider front sight to develop "Patridge-type" of sights, allowing the shooter to quickly align both front and rear sights under various lighting conditions.

2. Longer hammer spur. Both changes 2 and 3 work together to prevent the web between the thumb and the forefinger being pinched between the hammer and the safety spur when the gun is fired.

3. Longer grip-safety spur.

4. Arched spring housing fills the shooter's hand and checkering backstrap provides a better grip.

5. Relief cuts in the frame around the trigger allowing easier access to the trigger.

6. Shorter trigger with knurled face to avoid the trigger finger from slipping.

These changes were put into production on June 15, 1926 as AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CALIBER .45, MODEL OF 1911A1.

World War II was a replay of the situation in 1917, but worse. Colt .45s were in demand, not only by the U.S. Armed Forces, but also by the military establishments of our major allies. Again, contractors other than Colt provided the balance of the 2.5 million .45s made during 1941 to 1945. In all, four contractors added their share to Colt’s 480,000-pistol contribution. Remington-Rand produced 1.03 million. Ithaca turned out 370,000. Union Switch and signal Co. of Swissvale, Pa., received and filled an order for 55,000 M1911A1s. And Singer Sewing Machine contracted to provide 500 1911A1 pistols—which it did.

In the early 1970s, the Army decided to do something for its General Officers in terms of personal protection. The M1908 Colt Pocket Hammerless pistols issued to General Officers since World War II had finally outlived their service life. To correct this situation, Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island, Illinois began modifying the standard M1911-A1. The pistol’s slide and barrel were shortened just over .75"(1.905cm) and the barrel had one locking lug removed. A full-length recoil spring guide was installed, as was an enlarged set of fixed sights. Checkered, walnut grip panels inlaid with a plate bearing the officer's name replaced the standard pistol's brown plastic grips. Adopted in 1972 as the United States Pistol, General Officers’, Caliber .45, M15, it is similar in both size and weight to the civilian Colt Combat Commander. The M15’s increased muzzle blast and recoil are a small price to pay for what is hoped to be a personal weapon of last resort

The M1911-A1 pistol remained in service through World War II, the Korean War, and the War in Vietnam. The old war-horse proved to be particularly useful in the tunnel fighting that went on in Vietnam. For more info on the discernment of the various manufacturers of 1911 pistols during the war years, see the Who Made It?

The Norwegian 1911 (Model 1912 and 1914)

Colt .45 Autos have been copied, both here and abroad, almost since the first ones were made. The first of the foreign copiers was Norway. Seeking a suitable semi-automatic pistol, the Norwegian military decided on the M1911 as early as 1912. In 1913 and 1914, the Norwegians purchased 300 commercial .45s from Colt and then, having established that no Norwegian product was acceptable, began to negotiate for a license to build guns in Norway. Under an agreement signed in January, 1915, payment of 25,000 kroner bought the Norwegians a set of Colt’s drawings and the right to make M1911 pistols at their Kongsberg Weapons Factory for as long, and in whatever quantity they desired.

Formally adopted as the "Colt Automatisk Pistol Model 1912," the first 500 guns are virtual twins of the Colt product, differing only in marking. The second production lot, begun in 1919, carried a different slide marking — 11.25 m/m Aut. Pistol M/1914. The M/1914 also features a slide release lever that is distinctly different from those on both Colt and M/1912 Norwegian pistols.

The Kongsberg plant turned out about 20,000 M/1914 pistols between 1919 and the early ‘30s. Then, military demand satisfied, the line shut down. Under German occupation during World War II, the production of M/1914 was re-started, and another 10,000 were produced. Following the war, a few M/1914s were assembled from parts to bring the total made to just under 33,000.

— From The .45 Automatic, "Service Pistol Surrogates" by J.B. Roberts, Jr.

M1911-A1 Modelo 1927

After adoption of the M1911A1 in the United States, the Argentine government purchased the pistol from Colt as the Model 1927. The order to Colt was for a run of 10,000 guns for the Argentine Army. These guns were serial numbered in their own range from 1 to 10000. The original finish of these guns was blued with a brush blue finish and they had checkered walnut grips. The way to recognize them is that on the right side of the slide it has the following markings:

EJERCITO ARGENTINO
Colt CAL. 45 MOD. 1927 S/N

In the 1930’s, the Argentines secured license to manufacture their own .45s. These are called "Sistema Colt" to distinguish them from the actual Colt Modelo 1927. These Model 1927s were made by Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles "Domingo Matheu," in Rosario, Argentina. They are marked "F.M.A.P" or "D.G.F.M. (F.M.A.P)" on the left side of the slide and "Ejercito Argentino, Sist. Colt, cal. 11.25 m.m. MOD 1927" in two lines on the right. All Model 1927s bear the Argentine seal on the slide.

An estimated 38,000 copies of the Colt M1911 .45 caliber pistol were made at Rosario; another 75,000 were produced in 1947-1966 (some of which were still in service with elements of the Argentine military during the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982).

All Sistemas were originally blued, except a few that were specially ordered for the Navy. Early guns had checkered walnut stocks, later had black or brown hard rubber. They were numbered on the frame, slide, barrel, and magazine. Most examples noted have been either reblued, or phosphated; many of the phosphated examples have blued small parts.

In addition to military production, the firm of Hispano Argentino Fabrica de Automoviles. SA (HAFDASA), manufactured an unlicensed copy of the Colt known as the "Ballester-Molina." Most features of the HAFDASA gun are taken directly from the Colt product. The trigger and trigger linkage differ, however, in that the trigger pivots, and the trigger extension is external. The Ballester-Molinas also lack the grip safety. The story that the Ballester-Molinas are made from steel from the German battleship Graf Spee is a delightful but false legend. Both the Model 1927 and the HAFDASA .45s are extremely well-made pistols. For more on the Ballester-Molina, click here.

Civilian Commercial Production by Colt

In the early 1930's, Colt offered a target version of the basic civilian Model 1911. This National Match pistol first appeared in 1933. These pistols differed from the standard grade because they incorporated a match barrel, checked trigger, checked arched grip, walnut stocks and the internal parts were hand honed. Also included on later versions were a ramped front sight and an adjustable rear sight. These models were marked "NATIONAL MATCH COLT Automatic Calibre .45" on the left side of the slide. During World War II, the National Match Model was discontinued, but resumed in 1957. This newer version was referred to as the "Gold Cup National Match."

In 1950 Colt Introduced the Lightweight Commander. This pistol was chambered in 9mm, .38 Super or .45 ACP with a 4 1/4" barrel and full size grips. It was built in both steel and aluminum alloy frame variations, and was produced until 1976.

The MKIV Series 70 Government Model Colt pistols were manufactured from 1970 to 1983 and have "70G" as a prefix in the serial numbers on the models made from 1970 to 1976. The models made from 1976 to 1980 have "G70" suffixes. Models made from 1979-1981 have "B70" suffixes and models made from 1981 to 1983 have "70B" prefixes. The Series 70 had, in addition to the Government model, a Series 70 Combat Commander, Series 70 Lightweight Commander, and Series 70 Combat Government. The Series 70 featured an accurizer barrel bushing for improved accuracy.

In 1983, Colt presented the MKIV Series 80 pistol. It was a single action with 5" barrel. It was offered with checkered walnut grips and rubber combat style grips. This model had a firing pin safety incorporated.

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Marines in particular resisted the switch to the Beretta and only accepted delivery when ordered to do so by Congress. Many special forces units within the armed services still select 1911-pattern sidearms. In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

Today (1998) 1911-pattern pistols are produced by Colt, Springfield Armory, Kimber, Para-Ordnance, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Caspian, STI, Robar, Auto-Ordnance, Strayer-Voight, Charles Daley, IAI, Llama, and others. The 1911 is perhaps more popular today than any time in its long and illustrious career.

A lot of people believe that the 1911-pattern pistol is the greatest combat handgun ever built. I certainly wouldn’t argue with them, although I am aware that some other good pistols have been designed since 1911. It remains one of the best fighting guns ever, even though the single action design has become something of a liability in this hoplophobic milieu in which we live. Rather than stoking the “best” argument which is truly endless and without resolution, I will say only that the 1911 occupies a very special place in the history of combat weaponry, and in the hearts of pistoleros everywhere. It was the 1911 in the hands of Cpl. York which brought down the German patrol, which downed the Zero for 2nd Lt. Bagget, and fought until dawn against overwhelming odds with Kouma, Basilone, and Schmid. It was the 1911 which lay under John Dillinger’s pillow and dangled from the drunken hand of Machine Gun Kelley at his capture. This rich history coupled with the superb performance of the pistol is unique and will never be duplicated.

See Also:

Background Information on the United States Pistol Caliber .45 M1911

The History and Development of the M1911 Pistol

The Sight M1911 History Library

Legends of the M1911

Arsenal Rebuilds

_________________________________________________________________

Credits and Bibliography

Curt Gentry, John M. Browning: American Gunmaker (1964).

Richard C. Roberts and Richard W. Sadler, "Browning Company" in Ogden: Junction City (1985).

J. B. Roberts, Jr., "Service Pistol Surrogates" American Rifleman, (March, 1980.)

John Caradimas, M1911 Web Site, http://www.m1911.org

Sam Lisker, The Colt Auto Web Site, http://www.coltautos.com

Dave Arnold, "The Colt 1911/1911A1," Guns & Ammo: The Big Book of Surplus Firearms, 1998.

Oliver de Gravelle, Model 1911A1.com WWII production of 1911A1's by Colt, Remington, Ithaca, and Union Switch.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1911Tuner]

Interesting...Thanks Bob. I've seen at least two pictures of early guns with the grip safety but without the thumb safety...Have to wonder which came first...The chicken or the egg.:scrutiny:

[BluesBear]

Regarding the evolution of the Colt/Browning designs, perhaps a breif history lesson is needed.

There was the 1900 which was chambered in .38 ACP
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1900.gif


Then you had the 1902 Sporting Model in .38 ACP
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1902s1.gif


and the 1902 Military also in .38 ACP
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1902m.gif

Notice that Browning & Colt had gotten over the front cocking serrations idea by 1903.


Then you had the 1903 Pocket Hammer in .38 ACP
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1903hm2.gif
It would seem that pockets were bigger back then.

All of these models used the original twin link design.


Then came the first .45 (200gr FMJ) the Model 1905
notice that a slide lock had been added
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1905_2.gif


And the 1907 Military contract in .45 ACP (230gr FMJ) with the first grip safety
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1907.gif


Then came the first single link design, the 1909 Model .45 ACP
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1909.gif


And the 1910 Model .45 ACP gets us closer to the final model we all know and love, but it still had no manual safety.
http://www.coltautos.com/images/1910.gif

[1911Tuner]

Ahhhh! Thanks for the pix Bear.

I believe...as the story goes...that the Army requested the grip safety early on because they had checked out the one on the Luger P-08, and liked the idea. Later on in the development...because the 1911 would primarily be issued to cavalry units...the thumb safety was specified as a means to keep from shooting one's own horse during the ensuing melee...and located it to its present position/configuration in order to make the gun easier to manipulate with one hand.

Also read that the original "Hardball" ammo used a 234-grain bullet, later standardized at 230...possibly/probably sometime between world wars. I've seen boxes of .45/234FMJ.
Also of note that the early 200-grain round was a 900 fps (nominal)loading. Seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I've noticed that many historical books often provide facts that are either out-of-sync...chronologically speaking...or omit fine details. The author probably had it right...but the editor may not have understood the signifigance of certain facts, and cut'em in order to clean up the final copy.

[AnthonyRSS]

I can't understand how anyone could think the 1911 would be difficult to fieldstrip...Or detail strip, for that matter.

[1911Tuner]

I can't understand how anyone could think the 1911 would be difficult to fieldstrip...Or detail strip, for that matter.

I can. When ya add 2-piece full-length guide rods and reverse-plugs and/or bushingless barrels and ambi safeties and passive firing pin safeties, and what-not, all of a sudden ya gotta have an armorer's toolkit and three hands for the task. Couple that with slidestops that are out of spec and don't cam the forward plunger back into the tube correctly, requiring a credit card or somethin' to push the plunger in far enough to get the slidestop in, and....Well, you get my drift. Many of the "improvements" that we see only served to complicate things...and those same things are all that the new generation of 1911 fans have ever known. Most of'em never realized that the gun was designed to be completely gutted in just a couple minutes using its own parts as tools...at least until some old fart (like me) shows'em how.:p

Remember: The more doo-dads it's got, the more Murphy it gets.

[DT Guy]

The 1911 would be perfect (for me, now..) if its grip was about 1/8" shorter, front to back.

Just got short fingers....


Larry

[45auto]

DT GUY:

The "World" of 1911's has everything. ;)

Soon, Springfield will have their 45 GAP 1911 which is, I believe, about a 1/8"
trimmer...front to back.

[mrapathy2000]

DA/SA with safety and without

double action first pull that cocks hammer would be nice.
would love to have 1911 in this trigger style even if the travel was longer or maximum DA pull of 8 lbs.

[Shear_stress]

I wonder how the High Power fits into this thread. Seems like Browning himself couldn't stop tinkering with his design.

[Solo]

IIRC, the Hi-Power was mostly designed by Dieudonne Saive

[Shear_stress]

I understand that Browning worked on the design until he died in 1927. Saive finished it off and added the evil magazine safety at the request of some military or other. However, he can also be credited with giving the design a more 1911-inspired look. Browning's original High Power was an odd-looking, striker-fired thing.

[1911Tuner]

DA/SA with safety and without

double action first pull that cocks hammer would be nice.
would love to have 1911 in this trigger style even if the travel was longer or maximum DA pull of 8 lbs.

That would be the Colt Double Eagle.;)

[Marko Kloos]

The two biggest design weaknesses of the 1911 are the staked-on plunger tube and the swing link. I'd change the plunger tube to a SIG GSR type setup, and eliminate the swing link by going with something like the Peters Stahl "Linkless" setup.

Other than that, it's a pretty sound and ergonomic package, with modularity being its biggest asset. The feed geometry works very well, despite its two-45-degree-turns path for the cartridge.

[IZinterrogator]

+1 for whoever suggested squaring off the trigger guard for those of us who shoot with our off-hand index finger there. Mine always slips off, but I don't feel natural putting it somewhere else because I was taught to shoot like that and I don't want to untrain myself for only 20% of the guns in my handgun collection.

[1911Tuner]

The original design High Power also used an INTERNAL extractor...just in case it comes up that the external is a big improvement over the internal.:neener:

[Michael Zeleny]

Restore the slide rails on the frame to their proper inward orientation, as per Georg Luger (http://www.lugerforum.com/) and the SIG P210 (http://www.livejournal.com/users/larvatus/33732.html).

[Michael Zeleny]

The two biggest design weaknesses of the 1911 are the staked-on plunger tube and the swing link. I'd change the plunger tube to a SIG GSR type setup, and eliminate the swing link by going with something like the Peters Stahl "Linkless" setup.

Other than that, it's a pretty sound and ergonomic package, with modularity being its biggest asset. The feed geometry works very well, despite its two-45-degree-turns path for the cartridge.Just as the barrel bushing construction enables instant custom variation of the muzzle clearances, so the swing link enables fine tuning of the action locku in battery, by means of part interchange.

[1911 guy]

Let me put my disclaimer first. I'm not talking about folks who for one reason or another genuinely have a problem with grip size, angle, whatever. I'm talking about the "my XYZ is cooler" crowd.

Now my modification. I'd cast a magic spell that would slap anyone who bashed the 1911 to justify their liking of soulless guns.

[HD]

Let me put my disclaimer first. I'm not talking about folks who for one reason or another genuinely have a problem with grip size, angle, whatever. I'm talking about the "my XYZ is cooler" crowd.

Now my modification. I'd cast a magic spell that would slap anyone who bashed the 1911 to justify their liking of soulless guns.

having said that i further contend that what is refered to as 'soul' is simply a cultural bias ...
tell a froggy that his p15 has no soul and he'll spit in your beer , tell a russki that his t33 is just a hunk of metal and he'll laugh at you before he spits in your beer...
guns are guns , anyone who anthropomorphsises them is somehow quite clueless or given to a sentimental frame of mind...

[smince]

Hard to tell who is kidding and who is serious on this thread.

I spent a lot of years and bucks trying to prove (at least to myself) that a 1911 platform WASN'T the best design out there.

If I'd just realized from the start, all that money I spent on Glock's, HK's, SIG's (no Beretta's, though) could have been better spent on 1911's and ammo.:banghead:

A 1911 with short trigger, slim grips, and arched MSH fits my hand great. That is another great thing about the 1911: It can be adjusted to fit most any hand by changing parts. The P99/SW99/HK backstrap idea isn't a new one.

I'll agree with the "slimline", left hand bushing threads, and better plunger tube.

[1911Tuner]

I dunno HD...My old, OLD Colts speak to me. I can tell the difference between a USGI pistol...pick your contractor...and a commercial by pickin'em up blindfolded. They've been places and I wish they could talk.;)

Some of'em got a soul...Some of'em don't. Color me sentimental. Color me romantic...but I can feel the difference.:cool:

Standard grip thickness...Flat housing(with lanyard loop, please)...long, steel trigger with smooth face, as in original WW1/pre-A1 type...but I can make do with short trigger/arched housing just as well. No ducktail grip safeties, mill file frontstraps or extended appendages for me, and hardball will do if it's placed well.

[DT Guy]

DT GUY:

The "World" of 1911's has everything. ;)

Soon, Springfield will have their 45 GAP 1911 which is, I believe, about a 1/8"
trimmer...front to back.


Kewl...don't know if I could bring myself to try the GAP, but if they offer it in 9MM it might be the perfect 'gamer gun' for IDPA!


Larry

[Jacobus Rex]

I've got to admit to finding down-sized 1911-ish pistols interesting. I've got a Colt .380 Government Pocketlite that I CCW often and like it very much.

I've often thought that a 9mm slightly larger than the Pocketlite would be a fun variant.

[Peter M. Eick]

I will agree with that. A 75% scaled copy of the full size 1911 would have a lot of appeal to me. Everything would have to be scaled though. I have a gov 380 also and think it is great. To bad the steel is soft though.

[dsk]

No offense guys, but I'm surprised how many of you are taking text and pictures off of other people's websites and not giving credit for the source.

[bdhawk]

springfield armory used to sell a gun called the omega. it had a lockup similar to the glock or sig. it had a linkless ramped barrel.

that would be the two things i would like changed. lockup similar to the glock sig, and a linkless (like glock and/or hi-power) barrel.

[1911Tuner]

No offense guys, but I'm surprised how many of you are taking text and pictures off of other people's websites and not giving credit for the source.

:D

Howdy Dana. Only spotted two so far...

[BluesBear]

I admit that I didn't credit the photos I posted, however, if you right click and select properties you can see exactly where they came from.


The real reason I didn't give credit is because they're in the public domain.

[1911Tuner]

If you study the linkless design...of which there a few made for the 1911 floatin' around somewhere...you'll see that it works exactly like the link.
There are certain advantages with the falling link.

The advantage that the link has is when it comes to installing a hard-fit barrel that turns out to need a longer than standard link. Sometimes the front radius of such a lug has to be altered a bit to let the barrel drop a
little earlier/faster after it unlocks. With the linkless design, the operation seems like it would be a mite tedious in comparison, plus it'd probably be a real sunny beach to weld up and recut to tighten the vertical lockup. I've never dinked around with a linkless barrel, though...and it could be that somebody has sorted that issue out in neat fashion.

[bdhawk]

i like the linkless design 'cause re-assembly can be a PITA with the link design. i am by no means an expert, not even close. but.... it looks like the linkless design, with the lockup design like sig or glock use, would be easer to fit. the link would make the barrel hood 'cam into' the slide, resulting in a tighter fit with less fitting.

[1911Tuner]

i like the linkless design 'cause re-assembly can be a PITA with the link design. i am by no means an expert, not even close. but.... it looks like the linkless design, with the lockup design like sig or glock use, would be easer to fit. the link would make the barrel hood 'cam into' the slide, resulting in a tighter fit with less fitting.

Nahhhh...Not if ya know how.;) Helle's Belles...you can do it with your eyes shut once ya figger it out...

On the fitting...It depends on the vertical tolerance stackups between slide, frame, and slidestop pinhole location. Either the lug is tall enough to lock it up tight or it's not.

[Sam]

Tuner picked the only two improvements I would think of,
The Plunger tube and the Grip screw bushings.

Every 1911 I get I just solder them down and forget it. :D

Sam

[Gabe]

If permitted to change more than one thing, I'll probably have it look like this:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/star_p.jpg

[smince]

Cool! An invisible gun. The ULTIMATE in concealment.:D

[Gabe]

Cool! An invisible gun. The ULTIMATE in concealment.:D

Arrrgh, stupid link.

There was a pic of a Star 45acp.

[1911Tuner]

Arrrgh, stupid link.

There was a pic of a Star 45acp.

Funny you should mention that, Gabe...When the .45 GAP made its debut, I immediately thought of the Star PD with the grip frame length slightly reduced...something on the order of the Star BM...and felt like it would be the perfect format for the cartridge. Neat little carry package with the same manual of arms as the 1911. 'Course...even if some sharp entrepreneurish company resurrected the gun, they'd probably stick a complex firing pin safety in the thing...:rolleyes:

[BluesBear]

What Gabe posted was a stock pic of an early Star Model A from Max P's World of Guns site.

It's pretty much a 1911A1 copy except that it doesn't have a plunger tube, it has an external extractor and a slightly reshaped forestrap. And since it's an early model it doesn't have the grip safety. The later models did.

They were well built pistols.

[TMM]

i'd like DA/SA with a decoker, and higher mag cap, but not so the frame gets wider.

and that's about it. i'd like the trigger to still be the same style it is (not ones like on, say, a revolver. the solid triggers.)

~TMM

[1911Tuner]

Double-Action...Decocker...No grip safety...Plastic frame...Double-stack mag...more passive safety features...If ya did all that, it wouldn't BE a 1911
any more.:rolleyes:

A 1911 is:

A 39-ounce, all steel, 5-inch, single-action, 7-round (Not 8!) pistol with a slide-locking manual safety and a pivoting grip safety with an inertial, spring-loaded firing pin that doesn't NEED a blocking device if the spring is changed every few years. It has a barrel bushing and a single, linear-rate recoil spring, and an internal extractor made of good, spring-tempered steel, and if it has a true, captive half-cock, it can be carried in Condition One for a hundred years as safely as a loaded gun can be carried. It is also more durable and probably more functionally reliable than anything you can buy...assuming that everything within the gun is correct and in-spec...and halfway decent ammo is loaded into good magazines.

A Colt Commander is NOT a 1911. Neither is an Officer's Model or Defender.
Ditto for a Para P-14 or LDA. If ya wanna get really picky, the 1911-A1 isn't even a 1911...but I ain't gonna get that picky.

Cheers!:neener:

[Jacobus Rex]

It is an interesting point about what makes a 1911. That is one reason that I asked if you could change one thing.




1911Tuner,

Do you know of a good source for a used 1911 type frame? I've got a .22 conversion kit that I'd like to put on a frame to avoid having to swap it out.

Thanks in advance,
James

[BluesBear]

Except for the excellent Seecamp DA conversion, you completely lose that excellent 1911 trigger pull when you change a 1911 pattern pistol into a double action.


Which is probably why the Colt Double Eagle was a failure. (and the fact that there was no cocked and lock ability)


As Tuner has so astutely illustrated, the term 1911 is horribly misused.
Even more so that the term Series 70.

[Hawkmoon]

I would like to see some one come up with a way to simplify the way the barrel locks up. Perhaps a design with all fixed parts the way a Glock locks up.
Imbel, in Brazil (the same folks who actually manufacture the Springfield Armory 1911s), have done this.

In Brazil, common citizens aren't allowed to own "military" caliber weapons, so they can't onw either .45 ACP or 9mm. So Imbel builds a Commander-size 1911 in caliber .380 ACP ... both single stack and double stack versions. But ... it isn't really a 1911, because instead of a barrel link the under-barrel lug is deeper, and the slide stop pin goes through a hole in the barrel under lug. So the barrel is pinned in place. Then, since the slide moves and the barrel doesn't, they eliminated the locking lugs on the barrel and slide, making it a direct blowback pistol.

www.imbel.gov.br

It'll come up in Portuguese. Scroll to the bottom of the opening page and at lower left there's a flag you can click on for English. Then go to "Weapons" then "Pistols"

[BluesBear]

Er, um, the Glocks we see in America aren't blowback. :confused: So, in fact, they're not like that at all.

[Hawkmoon]

The 1911 would be perfect (for me, now..) if its grip was about 1/8" shorter, front to back.

Just got short fingers....


Larry
Keep your eye on Springfield, and Para Ordnance

[Hawkmoon]

Except for the excellent Seecamp DA conversion, you completely lose that excellent 1911 trigger pull when you change a 1911 pattern pistol into a double action.
Sounds like you haven't tried a Para Ordnance LDA series. Not a "true" 1911, but IMHO a lot more so than the Colt Double Eagle. Trigger runs 4-1/2 pounds out of the box, typically, and breaks very cleanly. It does feel different, because it's a swinging trigger rather than a sliding trigger, but after half a dozen magazines you almost don't notice the difference.

[BluesBear]

Yes I have tried the Para Ordnance LDA series.
I really don't like it. I don't want one.
I see no need for it. It ain't my cup of tea.

I am completely happy with the original 1911/1911A1 trigger setup.

With all of the different types of handguns available today I just don't understand why people keep trying to make one version into something it's not.

Perhaps if people took 25% of the effort they spend in trying to "fix" a gun that ain't broke and put that effore into learning to use one that already exists everyone would be happier.

I know for sure that if many people took 10% of the time they waste whining about this gun or that gun and used it to find a gun that was more suitable for them there would be a lot less wasted bandwidth in Internet forums.

[dwestfall]

Plunger tube integral to the frame

A more robust slide stop design that won't pop up from recoil or or pop up/out because some big bullet brushes it.

A robust ambi safety

Round off the butt a little

Give the whole gun a Tenifer surface treatment

Better 8rd magazines.

Trim the weight without compromising frame longevity (you figure out how. ;) )

[BluesBear]

What the heck. It's been an extra meds needed day...

Plunger tube integral to the frameThat's what adhesives are for. Just for a moment consider the cost increase to cast/forge the plunger tube on the frame side. Not much you say. Perhaps but then factor in the cost to precision machine it so the springer and both plungers will fit. The bean counters will never allow it and the consimers will whine even more about the cost.
A more robust slide stop design that won't pop up from recoil or or pop up/out because some big bullet brushes it.Any bullet that fits within the ammunition geometry the gun was designed for will not activate an in spec slide lock. Provided the plunger tube and its cmponents are properly installed and working.
A robust ambi safetyI've never had a single problem with the original Colt Ambidexterious safeties I have been using since 1978. And I have even had two of my guns so equiped so dropped by careless gunshow monkeys.
Round off the butt a littleEver heard of the Bobtail conversion developed by Ed brown?
Give the whole gun a Tenifer surface treatmentActually I believe that NP3 or Robar works as well or better.
Better 8rd magazines.Hmmm I have at least 30 that work flawlessly. And not just in my guns. Several other THR mambers have experienced no problems with them. Check out my posting about how to increase 8rd magazine reliability (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143531) if your gun has a problem with them.


More things that were not broken were broken beyond repair by trying to fix them than have been broken and fixed because they were actually broken.

[dwestfall]

Those are all workarounds for shortcomings in the design. The question was what would I change about the DESIGN.

[1911Tuner]

Those are all workarounds for shortcomings in the design. The question was what would I change about the DESIGN.

Shortcomings? :confused:

He's kiddin'...Right guys?

:neener:

[BluesBear]

Well it sounded like kidding to me.

[acpoulos]

It seems that all the variants coming on the market just offer gingerbread tweaks. If some major design improvement came along, wouldn't all the mfrs react?

I like my Norinco just the way it came.:)

Tony

[John Caradimas]

History of the M1911 Pistol

... things deleted ....


John Caradimas, M1911 Web Site, http://www.m1911.org

.... more things deleted ....


Thanks for the credit Sir, appreciated.

[albanian]

Why change it when there are so many other guns that already out there? I would change so many things that it would not really be a 1911 anymore so why bother? A 1911 for CCW is like a SAA Colt for CCW. Both will work perfectly fine but time has passed them by and there are much better guns out there for the tasks at hand.

Beretta 92G is way better than a 1911 and a Ruger SS Speed Six .357 mag is way better than a SAA Colt .45 LC. Life is better than it used to be in the bad old days when .45s ruled the world. Now a 9mm can pack as much punch as any .45acp and you can have twice as many of them. Whats not to like?

[swingset]

Life is better than it used to be in the bad old days when .45s ruled the world. Now a 9mm can pack as much punch as any .45acp and you can have twice as many of them. Whats not to like?

A 9mm can pack as much punch as any .45acp? :scrutiny:

Care to prove that?

[1911Tuner]

Why change it when there are so many other guns that already out there? I would change so many things that it would not really be a 1911 anymore so why bother? A 1911 for CCW is like a SAA Colt for CCW. Both will work perfectly fine but time has passed them by and there are much better guns out there for the tasks at hand.

Beretta 92G is way better than a 1911 and a Ruger SS Speed Six .357 mag is way better than a SAA Colt .45 LC. Life is better than it used to be in the bad old days when .45s ruled the world. Now a 9mm can pack as much punch as any .45acp and you can have twice as many of them. Whats not to like?

I think this was the best response to that statement...

Quote:

"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman's district. Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design....and that's exactly what I love about it."

-Rosco S. Benson on rec.guns “Is the 1911 an Outdated Design?”

You tell'em Rosco! Wish I had said that.

[NineseveN]

How would I improve the design? Make it one of these:
http://www.hk-usa.com/images/media/productimages/usp.jpg

:neener:



In all seriousness, I like the 1911's, I don't own one because I can't find anything that it does better than my USP .45 Compact. I guess if I listed all the changes I'd want in one, well, it'd be an HK USP in te end anyway. The ONLY complaint I have about the HK us the trigger could be a little better on it. Other that than, it's as I would like to have any handgun designed.

[MachIVshooter]

How would I improve the design? Make it one of these:
http://www.hk-usa.com/images/media/productimages/usp.jpg

:neener:



In all seriousness, I like the 1911's, I don't own one because I can't find anything that it does better than my USP .45 Compact. I guess if I listed all the changes I'd want in one, well, it'd be an HK USP in te end anyway. The ONLY complaint I have about the HK us the trigger could be a little better on it. Other that than, it's as I would like to have any handgun designed.

You do realize that the USP series was designed exclusively for the US consumer with the 1911-bias in mind? I had a USP .45 stainless. It was reliable and accurate, but the grip was blocky and the trigger gaurd rubbed my finger raw after 300 or 400 rounds in one session. It got sold to buy a S&W 1006. I have 4 1911's. None will be sold.

[jlh26oo]

Smooth kahr like DA trigger.

[NineseveN]

You do realize that the USP series was designed exclusively for the US consumer with the 1911-bias in mind? I had a USP .45 stainless. It was reliable and accurate, but the grip was blocky and the trigger gaurd rubbed my finger raw after 300 or 400 rounds in one session. It got sold to buy a S&W 1006. I have 4 1911's. None will be sold.

Of course I do, and I like the 1911, but I love my USP. I got the compact because of the grip size reduction. It's not for everyone mind you, a 1911 is a fine firearm as well.