Update on situation in Baltimore Jewish community


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chaim
October 20, 2005, 07:50 AM
Some of you participated in or read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144546

Well, here is an update of sorts-

I have spoken to the friend I usually stay with, and while he doesn't like it, he will "allow" me to take one of my handguns with me when I stay with him for the sabbath.

I won't say my decision about carry. Carry in MD is illegal and if I would carry I wouldn't announce online that I'm breaking the law. If I'm not carrying I don't want the chorus of "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" or "move" posts I'll get. I would say, I wish carry was possible here and I wouldn't need to make the choice.

Things have definately gotten worse for the Jewish community in Upper Park Heights/Greenspring in Baltimore.

In the past when there were "problems" a few people would talk about it, but most would ignore the situation (especially in Greenspring which is usually a pretty safe part of the community). Well, everyone is talking about it. Everywhere I went over this past holiday (Succos) everyone was talking about it. At a rabbi's dinner table we were talking about it. At a table in Greenspring people were talking about it. Synagogues are posting warnings. It is getting ugly, pretty much everyone knows someone now who has been a victim.

Being robbed at gunpoint is now a mild situation.:eek: When people are being robbed at gunpoint it is usually on our holidays or the sabbath when we don't carry money and the criminals are now getting frustrated and beating people until they have to go to the hospital.

There has been a rash of home robberies and outright home invasions of occupied homes.

There have been beatings for being Jewish. One guy was surrounded by a crowd he thinks was at least 20-25 and was beaten by at least 5 of them. He ended up in a hospital and now needs over $3500 in dental work (he's luckly to not have brain damage or to have survived at all). This was just 2 weeks ago, and at a location I am often near. One old woman was actually attacked in broad daylight in the parking lot of the kosher supermarket and knocked unconcious.

The way things are escalating quickly it is only a matter of time before people are killed.

While robbery has been part of it, it is also clear we are being targeted as Jews. Things the attackers are saying suggests this, as well as the fact that our neighbors don't seem to be experiencing the same problems and money isn't always being taken.

From the looks of it, I'm guessing gang activity or gang initiation, but we can't completely ignore the large "Nation of Islam" presence in nearby neighborhoods so it may be outright hate activity. Strangely (or maybe not) this doesn't seem to make the newspapers :banghead:

Anyway, with all that's going on, I'd be bringing a gun with me even if the friend I stay with didn't want me to (and I do believe in honoring the wishes of the person who is providing you hospitality). I also think that for most people it may be getting close to where the danger of not carrying is greater than the danger of being caught carrying illegally. I do worry greatly, less for my own safety (whether I carry or not, my mindset is self-defense minded so situational awareness is high), but more for my friends who live there and many of whom have young families. I don't know how and when it will end, though at least one member of the "ring" has been arrested to date (news of that is on the bulletin boards of nearly every neighborhood synagogue).

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swampsniper
October 20, 2005, 08:07 AM
Why stay there at all? There are countless cities and towns to choose from.
The situation you describe is totally foreign to most of us, and totally disgusting. Take care.

chaim
October 20, 2005, 08:22 AM
Oh, one tactical addition:

I am definately a revolver guy, yet.....

Home invasions? Escalation of degree and frequency of violence? One guy ending up in the middle of a mob of 20-25 and with 5 of them actively attacking him?

I'd prefer to bring my AR and all 7 20 round mags. Next would be my Benelli Nova with 6 rounds of 12 ga loaded (one in the pipe, 5 in the mag), 5 rounds on the butt cuff, and 20 shells on an ammo belt I have for 12ga.

However, I can bring one small handgun only. I don't think with what is happening in the neighborhood that I'll feel comfortable with my 5 shot .38spl Taurus 85CH or even my 6 shot .357mag S&W 65LS when I am in town.

So, should I use the smaller (and thus more convenient) Taurus PT140 Milennium Pro (10+1 rounds of .40S&W isn't bad, and I will be buying some more mags) or should I go with the larger 1911 (when the current bug in it is fixed- 8+1 rounds of .45ACP plus extra mags is pretty nice) or should I forget about small and take 15+1 rounds of 9mm in my CZ 75B. I may buy something sooner than expected and get a Taurus PT911 just for this situation (noticably smaller than the 1911 or CZ, not that much bigger than the PT140 and holds 15+1 of 9mm) or even get a 24/7 asap (17+1 rounds of 9mm in a not so large package would be nice right now).

I guess the smartest thing would be to stay in Columbia on the sabbath, but I don't live in walking distance from a synagogue (can't drive on the sabbath). I could start staying with people in the Silver Spring community, but I don't really know anyone there (and there is no way I can afford to move there with DC area rents). So I am pretty much stuck with staying with friends in Baltimore for the sabbath for now.

Anyway, this is having me rethink my self-defense philosophy somewhat.

I've been a revolver guy since I first started shooting. I love wheelguns.

I have been a strong supporter of revolvers for defense. They are nearly 100% reliable, much more so than autos. However, reloads are a bit slower. I didn't worry about that as I always felt that with FBI stats showing most situations involving one attacker and fewer than 3 rounds so I felt comfortable having revolvers by my bed and with the idea of carrying revolvers when and where I can carry (i.e. when out of state).

Well.....

I think it is the mob attack that has me thinking. It may be rare, but it can and does happen. Maybe there is something to be said for being prepared for the worst. If we prepare for defensive gun use we are preparing, why not prepare for as much as we reasonably can?

Should I abandon revolvers for defensive use? I think I'll always have the first gun to hand at home be a revolver- it is more reliable, it is a MOA I am quite comfortable with, and at home if I need more, then more can be available. But for hotels, when staying with a friend, or when carrying, when it isn't possible to have as many options available I'm leaning towards autos with the higher capacity and faster reloads.

Just thinking out loud (or on the keyboard I guess)

bogie
October 20, 2005, 08:51 AM
Chaim, let me get this straight...

You can't turn a key and press a gas pedal, but it's okay to ignite a primer? Just kidding, just kidding (I used to live near University City in St. Louis...).

Sounds like a situation for a little "group therapy." Walk in groups. While you're at it, put a few of Oleg's posters up in the neighborhood. May gain some converts. Then again, the lowlifes might escalate. Sigh...

Call the newspapers, televisions, etc... Tell them that your people remain willing and helpless victims, but that you don't have any bling on the sabbath, so wait until Monday....

chaim
October 20, 2005, 09:05 AM
You can't turn a key and press a gas pedal, but it's okay to ignite a primer?Well, Halacha (Jewish Law) values life above just about all else.

I couldn't go target shooting on the sabbath, however in certain situations carrying a gun would be ok. Certainly, if someone breaks in and is threatening to do you harm you would be within Halacha to shoot him/her even if it is the sabbath. Using the car example, if someone needed to go to the emergency room I could jump in my car and drive them to the hospital on the sabbath (even though driving is usually totally banned).

Sounds like a situation for a little "group therapy." Walk in groups.

Not a bad idea. I don't actually live in the community so I'm not always "in the know" about everything. I'll have to find out if there have been any safety experts brought in to speak. If not I'll have to bring up the idea with a few rabbis I know.

Even without carrying any kind of weapon there are things that can be done- walk in groups, situational awareness, unarmed combat, etc. Maybe people can even be convinced to carry pepper spray, knives, and whatever else as well. I do know quite a few gun owners in the community, and a few people (knowing I'm a shooter) who have been lukewarm about letting me take them to the range have suddenly become interested.

One safety concession I've heard talked about (but no decision) is even though one usually can't carry money on the sabbath or on holidays, maybe people should carry a $20 bill so they have something to give and there is less chance the BG will be angered to violence. I think a few people have done this on their own. Not the best solution, but better than no defensive techniques and not having what the armed BG is looking for. Of course, this will only work for the attempted robberies and will do little to nothing for the hate based attacks.

svtruth
October 20, 2005, 09:30 AM
I'm not Jewish, but with the history of the holocaust, it would seem to me every Jewish household would be well armed.

Preacherman
October 20, 2005, 09:46 AM
Chaim, you have my sympathies - it's a tough situation to be caught between your religion's principles and the realities of the street. I agree with you that the Nation Of Islam presence in neighboring communities is likely to be behind a lot of the violence - I have all-too-close contact with this group through my prison work, and Louis Farrakhan's anti-Jewish propaganda is constant, vitriolic and scary!

As for revolvers: remember that a high-capacity pistol has its place, but most people only use them to miss a lot! If you can put five or six accurate, effective, heavy-caliber rounds into the same number of assailants, it's very unlikely that the others (if any) will stand upon the order of their going... and as for rapid reloads, check out www.moonclips.com and have your "fighting" revolver(s) modified to use them. I've done this with a S&W 13 and 65 in .357 Magnum, and my 625's are, of course, already set up for moonclips. With practice, reloads are almost as fast as with a pistol.

As for which pistol to carry, if you decide to go that way: I'm as comfortable with the .40 S&W (given decent loads, typically the police-issue 165gr. JHP's) as I am with the .45 ACP, so either one would work for me. I am NOT a fan of the 9mm. as a stopping round, even with today's more effective ammunition, but I know there are many who disagree with me. YMMV...

Old Fuff
October 20, 2005, 10:17 AM
My feeling is that these punks are picking on you and the others because (1) you are Jewish, and (2) they expect you to be unarmed. If you confront them with a gun - almost any gun - I think they will go look for someone else to pick on, if for no other reason then they'll think you're some kind of law enforcement officer cuz' no one else can carry ...

The best advice I can offer under the circumstances it that the Jewish Community as a whole should make a big stink! Document what's going on and head for the news media. Charge that the Baltimore authorities aren't protecting you because they don't care about Jews. (May not be true, but it will get their attention - the powers-that-be don't want to be hung with that kind of reputation.) Go to the Governor's office and ask for state intervention (you probably won't get it but it will make a splash in the national media). Demand better police protection! They can at least do a better job of keeping track of things on the Sabbath. I don't know if it's permitted, but can you folks carry cell-phones?

As for home invasions ... That's what they make shotguns for.

geekWithA.45
October 20, 2005, 10:25 AM
If you decide to go the revo route, and don't want to get your guns modified for moonclips, obtain _several_ safariland type speedloaders, especially since facing down a mob is a possibility.

The cartridge release button faces the cylinder, so all you need to do is cram it in, and let it fall away. No additional push or twist motion is necessary, and with good technique and practice, it is for all practical purposes as fast as a mag swap.

A few years ago, a reader of mine mentioned that Baltimore has one of the oldest and most sucessful _armed_ neighborhood watches in America, which was the result of a mixed community deciding that their common cause was reclamation of their streets. Perhaps community leaders ought to be looking into that.

Andrew Rothman
October 20, 2005, 10:27 AM
Fuff is right. It's time to make a loud, continuous stink.

While you're stinking, apply for that CCW. If your target status is not sufficient to get you one, it's time to make another loud stink.

If you were in my town, I think I could round up a posse of not-quite-as-observant Jews like me who wouldn't have ANY problem carrying in your neighborhood on Shabbat.

chaim
October 20, 2005, 10:32 AM
and as for rapid reloads, check out www.moonclips.com

I've thought about that. However, I never have bought the 3" K-frame that I want to be customizable. Right now I'd probably have it done on my S&W 65LS if I did it, but being my first .357mag I don't really want anything done that isn't reversable. At the minimum, would it be possible to use it traditionally after the conversion was done, or would it only work with moonclips? One thing that looks interesting, if you use TK custom to do the work instead of one of the other companies on their site, they use titanium cylinders. I assume that means you keep your old cylinder so it could be converted back, and I assume it would cut the weight an ounce or two making it a little lighter for (out of state) carry. Of course, that would probably also add a lot to the cost (one of the more local companies charges $75 for the conversion, I'd guess the titanium cylinders would cost closer to the price of the revolver itself). Last, how much quicker than speedloaders are the moonclips in reality (i.e. is it worth the expense)?

Charge that the Baltimore authorities aren't protecting you
Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

chaim
October 20, 2005, 10:34 AM
apply for that CCW
I could try, but in MD in all likelihood the only result will be the waste of a hundred some bucks. In MD the application specifically states that self defense is not a valid reason to seek a permit. You either need to own a business that does a lot of cash deposits, or a business that deals in a commodity highly valued on the street (i.e. a jewelry store or gun store). A security guard can get one limited to while he/she is working. Otherwise, the only other option is if you have documented and direct threats to your life- you have to be able to show that you have personally been repeatedly attacked, or you have to have had death threats with witnesses. Even with the attacks or documented death threats, it is still a crap shoot (the only near automatic permits are for guards and for certain business owners).



If you were in my town, I think I could round up a posse of not-quite-as-observant Jews like me who wouldn't have ANY problem carrying in your neighborhood on Shabbat.

Things are bad enough that the only thing (if any) that keeps me from carrying on shabbos at this point is MD law not Jewish law (I'm sure the crime rate is bad enough that carry on shabbos would be OK by halacha).

Preacherman
October 20, 2005, 10:37 AM
At the minimum, would it be possible to use it traditionally after the conversion was done, or would it only work with moonclips?

Yes, you can use the revolver with standard loads - there's a rim left around the cylinder to catch the cartridge heads. The moonclips simply speed up the loading/unloading process. Your 65LS is a perfect candidate for the job.

As for the cylinder, AFAIK the conversion is done on your own cylinder. That's the way it's been on all mine, anyway. If you want to do a spare cylinder, I'm sure that can be arranged, but I suspect you'd have to buy the spare cylinder and crane, and have them fitted to your gun.

cowboy77845
October 20, 2005, 10:38 AM
Call one of the "Talk Shows" like Rush Limbaugh or Neal Boortz or Bill O'Reilly. Unload all over Baltimore and MD but be factual and objective. With all the negative media attention about New Orleans, you should get some reponse. Talk to the JDL folks. Get them involved. Hope all goes well.

bosshoff
October 20, 2005, 10:44 AM
Just remember, when attacked by a pack of dogs, always shoot the lead dog first.

Live Free Or Die
October 20, 2005, 10:46 AM
Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

If the violence you're describing exists when "doing it right," I'd really hate to see the results of doing it wrong. :confused:

geekWithA.45
October 20, 2005, 10:47 AM
Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

Ummm...that doesn't square with the increasing attacks. Something isn't working....

Oleg Volk
October 20, 2005, 10:50 AM
I agree on the recommendation for Safari speedloaders.

In MN, a couple of people I know used to provide sniper overwatch for the synagogue events, after arson attacks. Nothing ever happened on their watch...mainly because such events are still rare.

I see no solution but to carry sidearms. Many at the local synagogue do. If the local authorities are also the enemy, which they are in your case, then moving and denying them the tax revenue would be good. Let them rule the remaining barbarians.

Old Fuff
October 20, 2005, 10:53 AM
Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

Considering the situation you've described, I think their "nationwide model" isn't up to what it should be. Maybe a few quite words with the right people on the government side saying that if things didn't get better you "might" have to go to the media might get some results. Doing something is better then doing nothing.

Never forget ... Never again.

scout26
October 20, 2005, 10:58 AM
Chaim,

Not sure what the gun/carry laws are in MD, but here in Illinois CCW is illegal. However there is a way to and "technically" remain legal. This theory has not been tested in courts. It will also require a switch from wheelguns to semi-automatics.

http://www.gunssavelife.com/GSLife/POV/sixseconds.htm

I can neither confirm nor deny that I have used this when I worked in some of the more seedier areas of Chicago.

chaim
October 20, 2005, 11:02 AM
The neighborhood watch is seen as a nationwide model in a few respects. 1) It did massively drop the crime rate (until recently so maybe it just postponed the inevitable). 2) There really is unprecedented cooperation between the police and the community- they man some of the patrols in NWCP (Northwest Citizens Patrol) marked cars. BGs will never know when they see a NWCP marked car if it is a "civilian" who will radio in crimes they see or if it is a cop who will arrest them. The police provide logistic support, and they are ready to respond within minutes (sometimes less) when they get a NWCP call. 3) It eliminated the mistrust between the police and Orthodox community that is seen in many other communities (which sometimes goes both ways)

Not sure what the gun/carry laws are in MD, but here in Illinois CCW is illegal. However there is a way to and "technically" remain legal. Guns can only be transported to and from the range/store/smith and home. Guns must be in the trunk, not the passenger compartment. Ammo must be completely seperate and not even in the trunk with the guns.

No such "loophole" like in IL.

K-Romulus
October 20, 2005, 11:31 AM
That this is in MOM's B-More!!!:rolleyes:

I hope the advice you got here helps, esp. the "walk in groups" advice. That's what gun-grabbers say you should do instead of having a CCW, but it may actually help.

In my old days of living in Brooklyn, there would be groups of 10-15 young (teen/20-ish) Orthodox guys who would travel/walk around to Synagogues in East Flatbush/Flatbush that had fallen on hard times due to demographic changes in the neighborhoods. This seemed to usually took place around this time of year (?) No one ever seemed to bother those guys as they walked around in some dicey neighborhoods at dusk . . .

R.H. Lee
October 20, 2005, 11:42 AM
That is an unacceptable intolerable situation, chaim, and the fault lies squarely with the chief of police. It's his responsibility to control his city. All the Jews in the area need to march down to city hall and demand the chief's removal. Go as a group to the next city council meeting (and every city council meeting thereafter until the problem is solved) and hijack the agenda. Don't let them give you excuses about 'budgets' or 'officer safety' etc. et yada et :barf:

Demand the police clean up the streets-NOW. Talk to the press, go on local tv, write letters to the editor. Make a big stink until the PD does what it's supposed to do.

Justin
October 20, 2005, 12:13 PM
For those who would not carry a defensive implement, would they be able to carry video or still cameras?

Never underestimate the impact imparted by a ten second video clip sent to the right people.

WT
October 20, 2005, 12:24 PM
Invite a company of Israeli paratroopers over for the high holidays. Dress them in civilian clothes and let them handle business. Surely, they would have no problem being armed.

Does not the Talmud say "If someone comes to kill you, rise up and strike them down first"?

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 12:30 PM
Given that the ACLU has so much support amongst Jews, why is the ACLU not taking up the case? Why aren't they defending your 2nd Amendment rights?

(That's a rhetorical question -- we all know the answer.):barf:

pcf
October 20, 2005, 12:59 PM
One safety concession I've heard talked about (but no decision) is even though one usually can't carry money on the sabbath or on holidays, maybe people should carry a $20 bill so they have something to give and there is less chance the BG will be angered to violence. I think a few people have done this on their own.

Criminals aren't angered into violence because you don't have money they're violent criminals if they're going to attack you, it won't matter if you have $0, $20, or $1000. A $20 handout is all the more reason for someone to rob you.

Transportation of firearm laws, apply to handguns. IANAL, under Maryland code a shotgun or rifle in your trunk, and a box of shells under your seat, is not prohibited.

benEzra
October 20, 2005, 01:04 PM
Could you introduce any gun-averse friends to the possibility of carrying some sort of Fox Labs OC fogger? Better than nothing, I suppose...

AirForceShooter
October 20, 2005, 01:11 PM
..Guess Justin thought I crossed the line.

AFS

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 01:16 PM
Transportation of firearm laws, apply to handguns. IANAL, under Maryland code a shotgun or rifle in your trunk, and a box of shells under your seat, is not prohibited. e

It's also not a very quick weapon to put into action, and if it's in the trunk, not much use if you're attacked while walking down the street.

as a Jew these poeple disgust me.
You won't even take steps to defend yourself??
I grew up with people like this. "wer'e too enlightened to arm ourselves."


Somewhere along the way they forgot they were warriors. Funny part is they despise those of us that do remember.


If a man will not defend himself, what right does he have to demand others risk their lives in his defense?

Aikibiker
October 20, 2005, 01:20 PM
Could the community get together and hire a couple armed bodyguards to escort people on the Sabath? I am not sure if it is legal to have non-Jews working on your behalf on the holy day, but having a couple legally armed professionals around might be more palatable to the community then taking action personally. (Sad I know, but you gotta play the hand life deals you)

If you are going to carry illegally have you given some thought about what you will do in the aftermath of a self defense shooting? The fact that the barrel, extractor, and ejecter on the 1911 design are easily changed and readily available might influence my carry choice in such a situation.

R.H. Lee
October 20, 2005, 01:24 PM
Somewhere along the way they forgot they were warriors. Funny part is they despise those of us that do remember.
and
If a man will not defend himself, what right does he have to demand others risk their lives in his defense?
In principle, you are both exactly right, of course. However, you need to think it through. If Jews start packing and defending themselves, probably killing some goblins in the process, they'll turn from victims to aggressors. There will be individual prosecutions, Jesse HiJackson and Al Sharpton will show up with accusations of racism, etc., et yada. There will probably be a backlash in terms of Jewish homes and business torched. It would be a mess.

Explain all that at the city council meeting. Warn them before you escalate.

longrifleman
October 20, 2005, 01:24 PM
"wer'e too enlightened to arm ourselves."

How does this square with "Never Again"? Given the history of persecution, I've always thought Jews would be the most heavily armed segment of society. Instead, they seem to be the most heavily dependent on the state for protection. Don't any rabbi's ask the question "What do we do if the state refuses to protect us, or if the state is doing the persecuting?"

Inviting the Israeli paras over for some R&R is an excellent idea.:evil:

BobCat
October 20, 2005, 01:26 PM
Chaim,

My first carry gun was a 3" Model 13, loaded with 125 g .357 Golden Saber. I love that little smith and still take it to the range frequently. Even worked up a "light-magnum" load that matches the muzzle velocity of the G-S without the dramatic noise - but that's another story.

When I realized the CZ75B would disapear in my holster just as well as the little smith, held 3x the number of rounds, and the muzzle velocity of the 9 mm 124 g hydra shocks was the same (1150 fps) as the 125 g .357 from the 3" revolver, the only question was reliablity. The CZ prints at least as well @ 15 yards, and does not "jam" or fail to fire, whatever I feed it.

The rest of the advice you have received is excellent - walk in groups, and maybe find some Conservative/Reform Jews who like to play baseball on Shabot to walk with you, with their gloves, balls, and bats. Also suggest to the authorities that they do not need the bad publicity a fatal attack on an Orthodox Jew, on the Sabbath, would bring. And yes, for home invasions - a shotgun, not a handgun.

And now I'll go out on a limb and probably provoke someone's ire. I grew up in "the north" and got all the typical brainwashing about endemic antisemitisim in the South - but it is all [expletive] nonsense! If it ever was true at all, it is no more. I've never faced any real hostility in Texas. I've been called a "yankeejewliberal" - but only by a smiling neighbor who was clearly teasing me, since he was aware of the stereotyping I grew up with. I knew he was teasing since I'm not a liberal.

So - as much as it may seem repugnant to cut and run in the face of danger, you might give some serious thought to getting the heck out of there. Unless you can change the laws probibiting you from going armed, you will continue to be a sitting duck. Were your progenitors, who left Europe in advance of the Shoah (I'm guessing) - were they cowards, or simply people who were smart enough to get out before it hit the fan? There is a good-sized Jewish community in Houston, and in Austin, and probably elsewhere in Texas. Or other states that are Shall-Issue. You would be welcome.

Didn't mean to go on at such length, but you hit a nerve and I suppose I over-reacted. Best wishes for your (y'all's - second person plural) future well-being.

Regards,
Andrew

ceetee
October 20, 2005, 01:34 PM
If having a firearm makes you feel more sure of yourself, have one. That confidence will show through to your potential attackers. Just be aware that if you do have to use it, you will be going to prison, and you'll probably be sued in civil court as well. Only use it in a situation where prison is more attractive than the alternatives.

That said, though, I agree with everyone that said walk in groups. A group of some fifteen-to-twenty adults, all carrying big sticks (think Buford Pusser-type sticks) should be enough to deter any but the most aggressive and/or populous gangs. Also, ditto on the pepper spray, electric weapons, camera phones, et al. Whatever is legal to carry, and won't violate your religious beliefs, should be on your persons...

Essex County
October 20, 2005, 01:39 PM
Nobody should have to go through this. There are better envorements to live in. I live in a small town in northern Vermont where there is no anti-semitism. None at all. I say this because we do have a few jewish folks in town and they are acepted like all folks.....for who they are. I realize I've lead a shelter life for the last 25 years, but I've thought that this was a long gone thing of the past. May God be with You.....Essex County

Justin
October 20, 2005, 01:45 PM
I'll note that this is The High Road, and disparaging comments about other members' faith will not be tolerated. If you have a helpful suggestion or solution, post it. Otherwise, don't read the thread.

Gunpacker
October 20, 2005, 01:49 PM
Don't some groups of Jews refuse to fight even in Israel? Against their religious beliefs similar to some like the Amish or other Christian groups? Can't speak for those that feel that way, but it seems that it is a certain way to invite attack from those so inclined. Little risk. Certainly seems that waiting for the police to arrive for protection is likely to be dangerous to one's health.
IMO, those that won't defend themselves are a bit hypocritical to expect or demand that others should put their lives on the line and commit violence for them.

ZenMasterJG
October 20, 2005, 01:49 PM
Gotta go to class, dont have time to read the whole thread... I'll read it when I get back.

I live in Greenspring. I remember how it was 10 or 15 years ago. If things keep up this way, it only makes me more glad that I've moved to Boston. (Only marginally better 2a wise, at least I haven't been mugged at gunpoint in the last 3 years, which is WEIRD for me. having a gun in my face was usually at least a yearly event in Baltimore for me.) I've begged my parents to let me teach them how to use my shotgun (can't really bring it to the dorm with me... :fire: ) but they pretty much outright refuse. They're used to the Greenspring of 10, 20 or 30 years ago. I'm making some progress with my Dad with getting him to learn how to defend himself, but hes still resisting.

I worry about 'em. They thought i was nuts to keep a loaded shotgun in my closet, and I think they're nuts not too.

My parents are pretty much total hippies, they're pretty horrified that they raised a "right wing gun nut" (I'm a libertarian, i dont consider myself right wing, but i guess i get that label for not being ultra-liberal like them...:rolleyes: )

bogie
October 20, 2005, 01:59 PM
Guys, and goys, I can't resist this...

You need a Shabbas Gunnie.

Oleg Volk
October 20, 2005, 02:01 PM
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/arms/UZIclassic.sized.jpg

Hawkmoon
October 20, 2005, 02:09 PM
Well.....

I think it is the mob attack that has me thinking. It may be rare, but it can and does happen. Maybe there is something to be said for being prepared for the worst. If we prepare for defensive gun use we are preparing, why not prepare for as much as we reasonably can?

Should I abandon revolvers for defensive use? I think I'll always have the first gun to hand at home be a revolver- it is more reliable, it is a MOA I am quite comfortable with, and at home if I need more, then more can be available. But for hotels, when staying with a friend, or when carrying, when it isn't possible to have as many options available I'm leaning towards autos with the higher capacity and faster reloads.
Yes, that would get me thinking, too.

The problem is that a mob attack, if defended by use of a firearms, could go two ways. Read a lot of Louis Lamour westerns and you get the notion that if you point a gun at a mob they automatically chicken out and go away. That might happen. Of if upon a ttack you shoot one or two of the assailants the others might turn tail and run.

But ... they might not. They might all pull out Uzis and ventilate you en masse.

I'm going to beg you to rethink the entire situation. Do as much research as you can, and try to find a safer place that is within walking distance of a synogue. I know in my area Orthodox Jews walk several miles to get to their synogogues. I know this because I live outside a city. We have no sidewalks and they walk on the shoulders of the state highways, which is rather evident to anyone driving by.

I also believe you are correct that these attacks are based on religion. Hoods aren't neurosurgeons, but they aren't lacking in street smarts. It would not take long for them to figure out that Orthodox Jews who don't drive and don't use machinery on the Sabbath also don't carry money on the Sabbath and, therefore, there is no money to be gained by attacking them on the Sabbath. Ergo, IMHO any attack on the Sabbath would be based on religion, not money.

There must be SOMEWHERE you can find a safer area to attend synagogue. My concern is that, if you were attacked by a mob, shooting one or two might incite the others rather than frighten them off. If that happens, even if they don't shoot you to rags, there may be enough of them that even the CZ with 15 rounds may not be enough.

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 02:14 PM
If Jews start packing and defending themselves, probably killing some goblins in the process, they'll turn from victims to aggressors.

How is self-defense an act of aggression?

Experience shows us that people who carry guns find they don't need to use them -- as soon as the goblins find out their intended victims may be armed, they usually go elsewhere. I've had to use a firearm twice in self -- and didn't have to fire a shot either time.

Now, I suspect you mean that there will be demogogues who will accuse the victims of being the aggressors. Let 'em. All you have to do is have an elderly couple who were mugged and beaten respond on TV -- "Never again."

R.H. Lee
October 20, 2005, 02:55 PM
Now, I suspect you mean that there will be demogogues who will accuse the victims of being the aggressors. Yes, Vern, that's exactly what I meant. The Jewish community should put the city on notice that they don't intend to be victims; that unless the city begins controlling/stopping attacks on Jews, they will arm themselves local ordnances be damned; that there could be a racial backlash that will cost the city millions in police/fire overtime. That's their hammer.

crofrog
October 20, 2005, 03:00 PM
Me and my one of my friends in the area where thinking about this. under the law with security gaurds being able to pack heat. Could a security firm be setup and then use volunteer, or perhaps gaurds paid an honary salary of a dollar, be able to legally arm themsevles for escorts and security of the synagogue?

I'd be surprised with we couldn't get enough highroaders together to make it effective, at least on saturdays...

Rule 1 of a gun fight, bring all your friends with guns.

Just an idea.

Chris

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 03:11 PM
Yes, Vern, that's exactly what I meant. The Jewish community should put the city on notice that they don't intend to be victims; that unless the city begins controlling/stopping attacks on Jews, they will arm themselves local ordnances be damned; that there could be a racial backlash that will cost the city millions in police/fire overtime. That's their hammer.

If you can get them to do that, I would suggest one step farther -- they should assert that if the government deprives them of a civil right (and the right to bear arms is a civil right) and at the same time deprives them of any realistic means of self-defense, the government has automatically assumed an absolute liability for their safety.

In other words, protect us effectively or pay through the nose. And if you don't like that, stop violating our civil rights.

Standing Wolf
October 20, 2005, 03:13 PM
Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

If I had to choose between embarrassment and death...

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 03:21 PM
If I had to choose between embarrassment and death...

It would be a no-brainer.:D

Norton
October 20, 2005, 03:35 PM
Chaim,

I'm really sorry to hear this. Another example of how the so-called leaders in MD are failing the law abiding citizens at the expense of appeasing certain special interest factions within our state.

I think it's time to talk to the delegates and senators from that area (is that Zirkin's district?) and ask them what they intend to do to rectify this horrible situation.

A pity that the Sun is avoiding reporting on this.....but not at all suprising.

AmYisraelChai
October 20, 2005, 03:38 PM
Chiam.....Get out. Why Frum Jews continue to live in Yankee land, I will never understand. Come to Texas....Where even all the Rabbis pack! I have heat in my Talis bag (As do others) I dont carry to and from Shul (Do the preposition thing before a Holyday or Shabbos) but I would if I thought I needed to. (I will be happy when the Eruv is done)

I see a lot of misconception here as well. In all honesty, Having "Less than observant Jews" do the protecting would present problems. When you have to transgress Jewish law, it is best that an observant Jew do it for you, because he will only transgress it to the smallest degree needed. However, having a non Jew do it would be best.

As far as the Jews who refuse to fight in Israel, you have to have an understanding of why they do that before you make assumptions about their motives. It doesnt have anything to do with them being pacifists.

Just get to a gun friendlier place. Because of the influence of the past 100 years of liberal reformed Judaism, the conservative trends in Judaism today, especialy among the orthodox, will be a hard battle in the north. We just dont have those problems down south.

Vern Humphrey
October 20, 2005, 03:39 PM
I think it's time to talk to the delegates and senators from that area (is that Zirkin's district?) and ask them what they intend to do to rectify this horrible situation.


Excuse me for drawing the parallel, but this situation reminds me of the "disaster planning" in New Orleans. Corrupt and ideologically-driven government is willing to sacrifice your life if it fits the agenda.

enfield
October 20, 2005, 05:51 PM
There are times when a prudent man carries a firearm, whether it's legal or not. The cops aren't there to protect you and you're the best judge of conditions surrounding you at the moment. From what I've seen, people who righteously use firearms to protect themselves or others are seldom prosecuted for a firearms law violation. Even if this weren't so, it's better to save the lives of your loved ones and sit in jail than to sit on the beach alone.

Strings
October 20, 2005, 07:25 PM
huh... my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays? Were this in my area, *I* would...

rms/pa
October 20, 2005, 08:19 PM
up here in harrisburg our synagogs have hired armed guards, both in the parking lots and as reaction forces in the walking areas. each group carries one of those
mororola radios which goes to the radio car and base. you could have a cell tree if calls are permitted.

rms/pa

Trebor
October 20, 2005, 08:30 PM
I'll limit my comments to practical considerations:

I would not trust my life to an untested firearm. I would not buy a new firearm to use on the trip unless you have a chance to wring it out thoroughly first.

I advocate that you use whatever firearm you are most comfortable with and have the most confidence in. I think the specifics of revolover vs. auto in this circumstances should be determined by what you are most familiar with and could most easily operate under stress.

Btw, I also like the Safariland II speedloaders. They are quicker and easier to use then the HKS loaders. Sportsmans's Guide has them for about $11 if you can't find them locally.

I really don't see any advantages to moon clips on a defensive revolver. I think clips are better suited to competition guns. For the slight increase in speed you gain, you add an additional failure mode. Bent or damaged clips will bind up the gun.

gripper
October 20, 2005, 08:47 PM
I'm not Jewish...that said;if I resided anywhere nearby,I'd gladly volunteer to hang out with you down there.Hell,I'd even sport a Yarmulke just to bait the @sshole that thinkratpacking and assaulting people isworthgy of "initiation" ....even for the NOI dip????z.Any ideas anyone???

dodging230grainers
October 20, 2005, 09:18 PM
I was born and raised Jewish in Houston, TX.
Houston is a pretty cool city, and it has a very large jewish community as well as a very large gun community:D Get the best of both worlds and move down here :D

chaim
October 20, 2005, 10:36 PM
OK, there is a lot to respond to, I apologize about the length and I apologize if I missed you. Oh, and thanks for all the replies so far.

I do want to say in response to several who mentioned a shotgun as being better for home defense than just a handgun- I agree. I don't live within the community. I stay with a friend when I'm there on the sabbath (almost every Sabbath) or our holidays. At home I have a 12ga pump and/or a pistol caliber carbine ready, my SKS can be put into action quickly (it isn't loaded, but I have about 100 rounds on stripper clips) and I could load up my AR if I really needed to (and if I had the time as the mags are kept unloaded).

However, when staying with a friend I can only really take a handgun, preferably one that is on the smallish side. Also, some of my "tactical" thoughts here are for carry (when somewhere I can/do carry), and when staying in a hotel or with a friend when one can't have as many options available as when at home.

I do also want to clarify, my inability to carry (assuming I've decided not to break the law) has nothing to do with my religion at this point (the crime is bad enough that carrying a gun on the sabbath would probably be fine religiously) and everything do with Maryland state law.

Guess Justin thought I crossed the line.

AFS

I don't remember the specific post, but I do want to say that I saw and took no offense to what AFS said. I know him from Taurus Talk where I trust him enough that I made him one of the managers of my site. I'm sorry that there was a misunderstanding about something he posted. Anyway, I don't want to step on any toes here, but I wanted to be sure it was clear I'm OK with AFS all the way.


And now I'll go out on a limb and probably provoke someone's ire. I grew up in "the north" and got all the typical brainwashing about endemic antisemitisim in the South - but it is all [expletive] nonsense
I love the South, well I love Southerners. I absolutely hate the heat and humidity. I do still hope to move to Pittsburgh, good weather and good gun laws, but probably won't happen until I'm done with grad school (which I'm just starting next year).

Were your progenitors, who left Europe in advance of the Shoah (I'm guessing) - were they cowards, or simply people who were smart enough to get out before it hit the fan?
I understand your point, and I don't see leaving a bad situation as cowardice, but in the case of my ancestors they were neither cowards who ran nor people who left particularly early. My great-grandfather left Russia to avoid the anti-semitic draft which at the time required drafted Jews to serve 20 years in (usually) some of the worst anti-semitic units of the Czar's army. My great-grandmother left Russia after a pogrom left her entire family (except for a sister who was already in the US) dead along with most of her villiage. Of course, that was well before Hitler, it was even before the Communist Revolution.

Don't some groups of Jews refuse to fight even in Israel? Against their religious beliefs similar to some like the Amish or other Christian groups?
Judaism is definately not a pacifist religion. Some Reform Jews are pacifists, many members of liberal religions (which Reform is) mistake liberal politics for religion.

However, Judaism is not pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. What you are thinking of is some Orthodox groups are not fans of the state of Israel as it currently exists and don't want to overly support the state. These particular Orthhodox groups (there are Orthodox who strongly support the state as well BTW) have some major beefs with the State as it exists (it is very anti-religious, to the degree that in the beginning of the state religious kids were kidnapped from parents and brought up non-religious by the state) and most don't want to serve the state they oppose.

However, many who are in that camp find other ways to serve without serving the state quite as directly- the police, citizens patrols, civil defense groups, paramedics/rescue services, etc. None are motivated by pacifism, only politics.


Me and my one of my friends in the area where thinking about this. under the law with security gaurds being able to pack heat. Could a security firm be setup and then use volunteer, or perhaps gaurds paid an honary salary of a dollar, be able to legally arm themsevles for escorts and security of the synagogue?



You know, that may just be the most practical idea yet. I don't know if you could incorporate a volunteer armed security "company", if so that may be the best solution.

I think there are more than enough gunnies in the Baltimore Orthodox Jewish community to man a decent volunteer security company.

if the nature of the community is anything similar to the one around the near Main Line here in the Philadelphia area, it's beginning to grey a bit at the temples, and internal resources might be a bit limited.

FS, it is probably more like the Rhawnhurst/Northeast community. Used to be a great neighborhood (Greenspring is still considered a higher end, upper middle class neighborhood), less money than Main Line, but with some questionable neighbors. Age wise, not at all. It is one of the, if not the, fastest growing Orthodox community in the country. Lots of young families staying, and lots of new young families coming in. Money in most of the Baltimore community is pretty limited however.

my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays?

They'll have the same problem I have (except they'll have more choice in the matter). If they don't carry there could be danger, but MD makes it illegal to carry.

Strings
October 21, 2005, 01:27 AM
>They'll have the same problem I have (except they'll have more choice in the matter). If they don't carry there could be danger, but MD makes it illegal to carry.<

Yeah, but a pick-up game of baseball at a nearby park while y'all are at servives would be kinda fun, wouldn't it? Would explain the presence of the bats at least... :evil:

Waitone
October 21, 2005, 01:56 AM
Makes me made enought to chew nails. No one should have to tolerate such.

My two cents: do what you can to protect the group per some of the suggestions. The real work needs to be done with LE and political vermin.

Form a barbershop quartet :D and learn to sing loud, long and in four part harmony to the police. Video is nice, but written reports out the yingyang are essential. Get a stack of reports in the police's possession then make a few calls to local media. Visual media is good for a quick hit, but you also need to find an investigative ink-stained wretch and bring them into your confidence. Once you get some play begin working the elected vermin. They are the ones creating the problem. Be relentless and brutal. They are the ones who make the decisions for which you will pay the consequences. While all this is going on find a local radio talk show host and keep sending 'em information.

You have a major problem on you hands.

BTW, make a call to JPFO and see what they think of the situation and if they have any useful suggestions.

Keep us posted.

Felonious Monk
October 21, 2005, 02:18 AM
That is an unacceptable intolerable situation, Chaim+1. You've spoken in the past about moving to another location. I don't advocate running away from the situation, but long-term it still might be a consideration.

Re: the revo/semiauto debate: CR Sam always said Revolver for defense (as in home), S/A for offense (as in carry). In multiple attacker situations, you may need the CZ and 15+1. Grab an extra mag or two, as well.

Shalom, friend.
FM

Hardware
October 21, 2005, 03:12 AM
Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

The reason this comes to mind is the fact that I own one. A S&W first model new departure manufactured prior to 1898 predates all the gun laws on the books. It is grandfathered in and (in theory) is exempt from legal restrictions. S&W will supply documenting paperwork for a small fee if you provide photos of the firearm. A first model new departure can still be found on Gun Broker or Guns America on a regular basis for $200-$400, depending on condition.

There are 2 major problems with this though; 1) There is no case law on this approach. 2) The cartridges are fairly anemic. This particular revolver is available in 32 S&W and 38 S&W. Both of these calibers do still have more than enough power to defeat the bone thickness of the thickest forehead and make Mr. Brain wish he'd stayed in bed.

Good luck.

The_Antibubba
October 21, 2005, 05:39 AM
Chaim, I think you need a Chanukah pistol.

You know, eight tiny lights that represent something much bigger.

Just make sure you use Jewish bullets. They look just like regular bullets, but with the tips cut off!


I joke, Chaim, because i can't be there to help. :(

Maybe the police can assign some undercover Jews-it worked pretty well on "NYPD Blue".

Strings
October 21, 2005, 06:02 AM
SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...

Put me in the same boat as Antibubba: I REALLY want to be there for ya, and can't... :fire:

Jmurman
October 21, 2005, 08:12 AM
Chaim,

I live on the other side of town from you (Perry Hall), and I agrre...there has been NO mention of this in ANY news or newspaper.

At some point you might have to decide if Sabbatical Law overrules self protection. If 5-15 of you guys can lay down a wall of pepper spray, they might get the message. However, if it's a one or two person group, then you'll continue to get picked off.

I agree, MD carry laws suck, but you know as well as I do that its hard to overturn 30 years of liberal crap with just one administration.

Byron Quick
October 21, 2005, 09:44 AM
chaim,

I'd look into forming a corporation or maybe a LLC for security to get the carry permits. There's no need to mention that it's volunteer. Pay the security guards a dollar a year. Talk with lawyers and accountants about how to set it up. Provisions for volunteers who sustained permanent injuries would be the toughest part.

Have 20 'security guards' walking down the street with one person who is being guarded. Have a contract valid under Maryland law between that person and his security guards. Get contracts between the security guard company and the synagogues. With those contracts, you'd be walking to work at the synagogue and therefore the security CCW is valid. Wonder if security guards are required to be uniformed in Maryland? If so, a symptathetic rabbi could ask for an exception.

Vern Humphrey
October 21, 2005, 10:20 AM
my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays? Were this in my area, *I* would...

So would I. But all the time I'd be muttering to myself, "I pay taxes for cops to do this job, but they won't so I have to do it myself. And if the cops would do the job, they wouldn't do it unarmed."

shaldag
October 21, 2005, 10:42 AM
I am new to these forums. Strange, I log onto this to talk about guns, and I find this thread. It is somewhat disturbing.

I am an Orthodox Jew, and I guss I pretty much qualify as an Orthodox gun nut, since I attend the synagogue and the range with about the same frequency.

I have lived in a number of different US states (as well as Israel) and have had to deal with a large number of different laws regarding handgun carry. I don't know anything about Baltimore, except having visited Johns Hopkins there, and thinking that I would sure want a carry permit if I worked there.

Anyway, on topic, and I hope that nobody will consider advice from a forums newbie as too out of line.

In a number of states with extremely restrictive carry laws, certain lawyers make a career out of helping individuals obtain permits. It might be worthwhile to see if there is someone like that in Baltimore. Of course, if the law is too restrictive (as in NYC for example) nothing will help if you are not a celebrity or are politically connected in some way.

As far as Jewish law goes, the main religious objection to carry is that one is required to obey "the law of the land". If you can obtain a permit, then there is no problem at all with carrying a pistol for self-defense on Sabbath or Holiday, as it falls under possibilty of saving a life. And as far as entry into a house of worship, Jewish law does not prohibit this at all. The reference to having weapons in the Temple was not relevant, as synagogues today, while partially replacing the Temple, are not the same thing under Jewish law. And when the Jews returned from Babylon and rebuilt the Temple, we did so with "one hand on the sword" to protect themselves.

How do you think that we do things in Israel? A number of folks attend the synagogue while carrying.

Just one question, if I may? Have you considered martial arts of some kind? Before anyone jumps on me here, I do not consider martial arts and handgun carry interchangeable. But knowing something like this can sure help, especially if there is no option to carry.

I sure hope your situation improves. Stay safe.

shaldag
October 21, 2005, 10:44 AM
SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...


I can assure you that the HK USP is an exceptionally Kosher pistol. So is the Glock 19, by the way.:D

Vern Humphrey
October 21, 2005, 10:55 AM
Have you considered martial arts of some kind?

Good post, but martial arts require a certain amount of physical ability that is usually beyond the elderly people who are the most vulnerable victims.

Dave Markowitz
October 21, 2005, 11:04 AM
Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

{clip}



Oy vey. This isn't going to work. It's still a "gun" or at least a weapon in the eyes of the law. If you're going to carry illegally, don't depend on using an antique to keep you out of legal trouble.

chaim
October 21, 2005, 11:59 AM
Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

The reason this comes to mind is the fact that I own one. A S&W first model new departure manufactured prior to 1898 predates all the gun laws on the books. It is grandfathered in and (in theory) is exempt from legal restrictions.

I looked into something like this some time ago.

My thinking was that since blackpowder and antique firearms were not considered firearms under federal law for purchase so no background check was required I might have a solution. MD is one of the states that follows federal law on this, believe it or not MD is not one of the more restrictive states, so MD does not consider a blackpowder or antique firearm to be a firearm when purchasing it. No background check, no waiting period or one a month limit on handguns, etc.

So I was thinking of carrying a blackpowder revolver on the assumption that it wasn't covered by MD law as a firearm. I love revolvers anyway, and consider how impressive a .45cal 7.5" Colt 1861 Army or Remington 1858 New Army clone would look, might not even need to fire it. Heck, if you had multiple attackers or if you missed the flame and smoke coming out of it alone may be impressive enough to make your remaining attackers pee themselves and run. :D

Unfortunately, when I looked into it further I found that MD law doesn't consider such guns to be firearms for purchase, but once you own them they are considered firearms under the law and subject to all MD restrictions on carry, transport and possession.

K-Romulus
October 21, 2005, 12:15 PM
Chaim:

I thought about forming my own "private security" company to get around the BS Maryland laws. What I found was pretty discouraging. (I am not a MD lawyer, but this is what I saw when I looked into the issue)

There is a whole set of laws governing "private security" in MD. To make it short, they should be called the "Retired/Former LEO Job Security Acts." :banghead:

To own or run a private security company, you need to be licensed by the MSP. To get the license, the law says you need "experience" in that you either have to be a former LEO or have 5+ years of experience in private security as a "private detective," not just a security guard. Each of your employees has to also be licensed to be a private security guard, but without the same "experience" requirements.

(Taken from the free Lexis website for the MD Code: http://198.187.128.12/maryland/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0)

&#167; 19-301. License required; individual or firm may qualify.

(a) License required.- Except as otherwise provided in this title, a person shall be licensed by the Secretary as a security guard agency before the person may:

(1) conduct a business that provides security guard services in the State; and

(2) solicit to engage in a business that provides security guard services in the State.

(b) Individual or firm may qualify.- An individual or a firm may qualify for a license as a security guard agency.

Ok, great. What does this mean?

&#167; 19-302. Qualifications of applicants.

(a) In general.- To qualify for a license, an applicant shall meet the requirements of this section.

(b) Representative member of firm.- If the applicant is a firm, the firm shall appoint a firm member as the representative member to make the application on behalf of the firm.

(c) Character and reputation.-

(1) If the applicant is an individual, the applicant shall be of good character and reputation.

(2) If the applicant is a firm, each firm member shall be of good character and reputation.

(d) Age.- The individual applicant or the representative member shall be at least 25 years old.

(e) Experience.- The applicant shall meet the experience requirements of &#167; 19-303 of this subtitle

OK, we need experience. Great? Nope!

&#167; 19-303. Experience and training.

(a) Definition.- In this section, "organized police agency" means:

(1) a police department of the State or of a county or municipal corporation of the State;

(2) a private police department that is allowed to enroll its officers in approved Maryland Police Training Commission schools and academies; or

(3) a law enforcement agency of the United States, of any state, or of any county or municipal corporation of any state.

(b) Required experience and training.- An individual applicant or, if the applicant is a firm, the representative member shall have:

(1) at least 5 years experience as a full-time private detective certified under Title 13 of this article;

(2) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time police officer with an organized police agency; and

(ii) completed successfully a police officer training course that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(3) at least 3 years of experience in an investigative capacity as a detective while serving as a police officer with an organized police agency;

(4) at least:

(i) 3 years of experience in an investigative capacity in any unit of the United States, of the State, or of a county or municipal corporation of the State for the purpose of law enforcement; and

(ii) completed successfully the police officer training that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(5) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time fire investigator for a fire department or law enforcement agency of the State or of a county or municipal corporation of the State; and

(ii) completed successfully the training certified by the Maryland Police Training Commission or the Maryland Fire-Rescue Education and Training Commission; or

(6) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time correctional supervisor in a correctional facility in the State; and

(ii) completed successfully the training required by the Correctional Training Commission.

:banghead:

Maybe you guys could ID a sympathetic security guard company to help sponsor your security guard licenses? That way you would be "official" under the law, but still do your own thing . . .

There may be a "loophole" in that you guys wouldn't be providing this security as a "business":


&#167; 19-101. Definitions.
(a) In general.- In this title the following words have the meanings indicated.
. . .

(k) Security guard agency.-

(1) "Security guard agency" means a person who conducts a business that provides security guard services.

(2) "Security guard agency" does not include a person that is primarily engaged in the business of owning, maintaining, or otherwise managing property.

(l) Security guard services.- "Security guard services" includes any activity that is performed for compensation as a security guard to protect any individual or property[, except the activities of an individual while performing as:

(1) a marine guard or ship watchman, regardless of whether the guard or watchman is stationed aboard a ship or on a pier; or

(2) a special police officer appointed and while performing under Title 3, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article or &#167; 16-16 of the Code of Public Local Laws of Baltimore City.

But the "loophole" will have to be analyzed by a real-live MD lawyer . . .

As if I hadn't written enough:

Plainclothes security is handled under the MD "private detective" laws (MD Code Section 13). . . with basically the same licensing requirements . . .

chaim
October 21, 2005, 12:16 PM
SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...
Actually, I think a Mauser or Walther would be very good Jewish guns. During Israel's War of Independence they had a lot of trouble arming themselves as all the major powers had imposed an arms imbargo on them. However, as Germany had just fought and lost a world war there were military arms scattered all over Germany. Israeli agents scoured Europe for arms and many German arms made their way to Israel to help win Israeli independence. Thus, many Nazi guns helped create the State of Israel.

So from a Jewish perspective, some of those guns certainly have an ugly history, but some have a great history as well.

I am an Orthodox Jew, and I guss I pretty much qualify as an Orthodox gun nutWelcome to THR, there are a few of us here. Definately be on the lookout for "The Rabbi", he isn't a rabbi but he is a very special person and great resource on guns. ...since I attend the synagogue and the range with about the same frequency.I hope you are a woman, otherwise to go to the range as much as shul....how do you keep from going broke?:eek:

Anyway, on topic, and I hope that nobody will consider advice from a forums newbie as too out of line.
Horrible. Terrible. How uncouth and rude:p :D

In a number of states with extremely restrictive carry laws, certain lawyers make a career out of helping individuals obtain permits. It might be worthwhile to see if there is someone like that in Baltimore. Of course, if the law is too restrictive (as in NYC for example) nothing will help if you are not a celebrity or are politically connected in some way.


MD is an odd case. For most people we may as well be a non-issue state, but for some people it is near "shall-issue" and you don't need to be politically connected. Unfortunately, I don't have the money to open a check cashing store or restaraunt (and thus deal with a lot of cash), gun store, or jewelry store so I can easily obtain a permit. Becoming a security guard won't do much good since I could only carry while working. No one has told me they were going to kill me (and did so in a way which was obviously serious) in front of witnesses and there is no paper trail of a series of such events documented with the police, and I have not had a series of serious attacks against me personally. Of course that last set of circumstances is not defacto "shall-issue" in MD, unlike the property situations which are, that allowed catagory only makes it possible to get a permit. For the rest of us who want a permit- forget it. I don't even think there is a loophole that a good lawyer can find since the application specifically states that self-defense is not a sufficient reason to apply unless you have a documented and credible threat against your life.

chaim
October 21, 2005, 12:23 PM
K-Romulus, I thought I had a workable solution when I read this:
To own or run a private security company, you need to be licensed by the MSP. To get the license, the law says you need "experience" in that you either have to be a former LEO

A friend of mine is a retired NY police officer. In fact, his rabbi was trying to get him a carry permit specifically so he could carry to synagogue and provide (unofficial and unpaid) security to the shul (synagogue). I don't know what ever became of this. Anyway, I was thinking I could talk to him about being the head of such a thing, until I got to this part of your post:



(b) Required experience and training.- An individual applicant or, if the applicant is a firm, the representative member shall have:...

(2) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time police officer with an organized police agency; and

(ii) completed successfully a police officer training course that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(i) is no problem, 5 years experience? My friend is a retired NYC cop. But part (ii) is a problem...
and completed a police training course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission, he was a NYC cop not a MD cop. Oh well, back to square one:banghead:

K-Romulus
October 21, 2005, 12:39 PM
A lot of departments hire "laterals" from out of state. There may be reciprocity among them regarding their states' basic police training credentials (like how PA will "honor" VA law licenses of lawyers with 5+ years of practice by letting them join the PA bar by simply paying the PA bar dues). MD may have something similar with NY state police training. Don't LEO academies have an accreditation process by a national training standards agency? That may be the key.

Maybe this could work . . .:scrutiny:

Mannlicher
October 21, 2005, 01:16 PM
and your point is?

Byron Quick
October 21, 2005, 01:36 PM
i) is no problem, 5 years experience? My friend is a retired NYC cop. But part (ii) is a problem...
and completed a police training course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission, he was a NYC cop not a MD cop. Oh well, back to square one


Chaim, definitely check on reciprocity. There's a very good chance that the Maryland Police Training Commission recognizes New York training. Otherwise, you'd have the situation of a Maryland Department not being able to hire a NY officer with ten years experience without sending him back to the academy. It's worth checking into.

Look into the privated detective thing for plainclothes security. If you could get your rabbi involved with negotiations with Baltimore officials , it might grease the wheels with the bureaucracy.

wingnutx
October 21, 2005, 01:40 PM
two words: Krav Maga

Jmurman
October 21, 2005, 01:49 PM
Chaim,

Have you actually tried to get a CCW permit? Maybe things have lightened up some?

Art Eatman
October 21, 2005, 03:13 PM
If my group were subject to all this maltreatment, I'd be putting dossiers together, complete with victims' photos as well as police incident reports.

And send them out: Radio talk-show people. TV news people. Editors.

And the community as a whole should be writing letters and making irate phone calls to each and every elected official, from city councilmen to the legislators and the governor.

"They're killing us! What are YOU going to DO to stop it?"

In a friendly manner, threaten recall elections. Same manner, threaten lawsuits for misfeasance/malfeasance over the lack of community protection. At the state level, call on the legislators for EQUALITY with the Bad Buys; the state does not prevent the BGs from having guns, so equality demands that honest people be accorded the same treatment. And run this on through the same media as the other.

If anybody objected, I'd go the anti-semitic route: "You hate Jews!" Me, I wouldn't care how many claimed their best friend was Jewish! They either help me save my life or they're bigoted Jew haters. Remember that in modern America, perception is ALL and reality is pretty much unimportant.

You put gun control supporters in the category of being religious bigots, and they're gonna run for cover.

But it will take cooperative get-off-your-duff action by the impacted parties. If not, give up and move out.

Art

Kacerdias
October 21, 2005, 05:53 PM
Just an idea -


Carry a second wallet with realistic looking fake money and various fake wallet tidbits. Carry 2 cans of Fox Labs spray - the 4oz fogger and the 6oz clearout grenade.

When threatened just put your hands up and compliantly toss the fake wallet ahead of you as a distraction. In the case of 1 or 2 attackers hose them with the fogger. In the case of a mob, pop the 6oz grenade right in the middle of them and bolt. :neener:


Of course, this would be far easier with a nice hi-cap CZ and some spare magazines, but you've gotta make due with MD law. :banghead:

Biker
October 21, 2005, 06:07 PM
If my group were subject to all this maltreatment, I'd be putting dossiers together, complete with victims' photos as well as police incident reports.

And send them out: Radio talk-show people. TV news people. Editors.

And the community as a whole should be writing letters and making irate phone calls to each and every elected official, from city councilmen to the legislators and the governor.

"They're killing us! What are YOU going to DO to stop it?"

In a friendly manner, threaten recall elections. Same manner, threaten lawsuits for misfeasance/malfeasance over the lack of community protection. At the state level, call on the legislators for EQUALITY with the Bad Buys; the state does not prevent the BGs from having guns, so equality demands that honest people be accorded the same treatment. And run this on through the same media as the other.

If anybody objected, I'd go the anti-semitic route: "You hate Jews!" Me, I wouldn't care how many claimed their best friend was Jewish! They either help me save my life or they're bigoted Jew haters. Remember that in modern America, perception is ALL and reality is pretty much unimportant.

You put gun control supporters in the category of being religious bigots, and they're gonna run for cover.

But it will take cooperative get-off-your-duff action by the impacted parties. If not, give up and move out.

Art

In truth, Art, the 'anti-semitic' route I find as offensive as the antics that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton pull. I believe that it's wrong and can lead to backlash ala the boy-who-cried wolf syndrome. To use minority status to further an agenda is just plain wrong.
JMO...
Biker

RON in PA
October 21, 2005, 06:14 PM
Chaim: Why haven't you, your rabbis and other members of the community started writting letters to that bastion of liberalism, the Baltimore Sun. Deluge them. Also make a stink to the local state and federal reps.. Also, if this is organized in anyway and directed at the Jewish community wouldn't such behavior constitute "ethnic intimidation". Lots of laws against that.

Haven't lived in MD for 26 years, but they were some of the best years of my life and I find this all to be rather sickening. Rented in Pikesville and owned in Randallstown and I understand that the latter has gone down the tubes in a similar fashion.

Spot77
October 21, 2005, 06:28 PM
Have you actually tried to get a CCW permit? Maybe things have lightened up some?




No, they absolutely have not. MAYBE after next year's gubernatorial race, if Gov Bob wins again.......but don't hold your breath.

Lemon328i
October 21, 2005, 07:06 PM
I feel for the Jewish Community of Baltimore, but it is no better for the Asian community or for the African American community (the good folks who can't afford to leave the bad areas). This city is so mired in the corruption of 60 years of Democratic rule that only one thing will get the City Council to do anything: Money. Whether it be in the form of bribes or witholding campaign donations, only money will get the local government to do anything.

Mayor O'Malley is in for a tough primary race against Doug Duncan. I suggest that if you want to get some action fast, contact the Duncan campaign so that they can get the message out. It will force O'Malley to do something (even if it won't work).

The Jewish community's plight here is the same as in every large anti-gun rights Democratic "Blue" State stronghold, you have no right to protect yourself and you have no right to sue the government for failing to protect you.

Your only recourse is to protect yourself. It is not illegal to carry a softball bat. Make sure you have a softball or glove on you though. Wouldn't want the lords and masters downtown to think you were actively defending yourself.

Tokugawa
October 21, 2005, 11:48 PM
Trying to fight a defensive action is a bitch. I guess the Jews know this ,it has only been going on for a thousand years or so. If the assailants were Gestapo or Cossacks what would you do?

The_Antibubba
October 22, 2005, 05:57 AM
If all else fails, I'll send you one of my Grandmother's matzo balls. With a good arm they'd be deadly at 20 feet.

swampsniper
October 25, 2005, 02:49 PM
Fuff is right. It's time to make a loud, continuous stink.

While you're stinking, apply for that CCW. If your target status is not sufficient to get you one, it's time to make another loud stink.

If you were in my town, I think I could round up a posse of not-quite-as-observant Jews like me who wouldn't have ANY problem carrying in your neighborhood on Shabbat.

If you were in my town, we could find some Christians happy to walk beside you. One of them is here now.

Kurush
October 25, 2005, 03:20 PM
In truth, Art, the 'anti-semitic' route I find as offensive as the antics that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton pull. I believe that it's wrong and can lead to backlash ala the boy-who-cried wolf syndrome. To use minority status to further an agenda is just plain wrong.
JMO...
BikerI agree, race-baiting is a totally unacceptable means even if the ends are very important.

By the way, Chaim if you do end up moving to the Burgh drop me a line, I'd be happy to show you around the local ranges :)

secamp32
October 25, 2005, 03:23 PM
without a bowl of chicken soup is a felony.

If all else fails, I'll send you one of my Grandmother's matzo balls. With a good arm they'd be deadly at 20 feet.
:neener:

Tokugawa
October 25, 2005, 04:25 PM
In case anybody has not noticed yet, "liberals" are not exactly on the side of Jews anymore. As a matter of fact, I have seen some distinctly anti semitic comments from the "left", as they spout anti US/Israel rhetoric. This is going to get worse, look to our enlightend European friends to show us how.

Biker
October 25, 2005, 04:29 PM
I'm not sure of what you're referring to as far as anti-semetic comments go, but imo, disagreeing with Israel's foreign policies doesn't necessarily equate to being anti-semetic anymore than disagreeing with Italy's foreign policies equate to ant-catholisism.
Biker

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