Newbie Gun Questions


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hardrafyed
October 20, 2005, 03:33 PM
I purchased a .45auto not too long ago and I can shoot well with it. I also know the basic firearm safety rules and operation of my pistol.

These questions have been bugging me lately and hopefully I can get some answers.

1. What does the term "blueing" mean? I think it refers to the color of the gun, but most guns are chrome, stainless steel/silver, and black. Is 'black' considered blue?

2. Why do some handguns cost $500+? What's special about high-priced guns?

3. What's all this talk about different weight bullets and velocity speeds? I know ammo comes in different weights and speeds but does it really matter in self-defense? If you shoot an average burglar or person trying to do harm against you, wouldn't it get the job done?

4. I know the difference between a clip and magazine, however, if the clip just holds loose ammo so it will be nice and neat, wouldn't this make reloading an autoloader harder? (I'm envisioning taking the ammo out of the clip and loading it into a magazine.)

5. What's wrong with DAO pistols (if there's anything wrong)?

Thanks!

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boofus
October 20, 2005, 03:42 PM
1. Blueing is the process of corroding the metal to turn it from shiny to black/blue. Depending on the agent used it can be darker or lighter. Most black guns are blued metal but some are parkerized. Other folks probably know more about the metallurgy involved.

2. Lots of imported guns are expensive because of the regulations and tariffs and whatnot. Others like Colt are just expensive because they can charge that much and get away with it :neener: .

5. DAO means the trigger performs 2 actions. It pulls the hammer back and then releases it. So the trigger pull has to be heavy enough to move the hammer all the way back before it lets go. So typically DAO guns have a much heavier trigger than Single Action guns. There are some exceptions like the H&K LEM or Sig DAK, they have pre-cocked hammer springs so the trigger pull is still light even though they are DAO.

TexasRifleman
October 20, 2005, 03:46 PM
#4

The clip in some cases actually goes into the magazine WITH the ammo, so you don't have to remove it at all. This would be the system used by the
Garand as an example. The magazine is attached to the rifle, you load the clip and ammo into the magazine, when the last shot is fired the clip is ejected, and you just load the magazine again.

The other use is the "stripper clip" idea. This is a clip that holds loose ammo in a nice straight vertical position, and allows the ammo to slide up and down inside a "rail". A guide that attaches to the top of the magazine allows the clip to be inserted, aligning the ammo with the magazine. By pushing down on the top of the stack of ammo, all the rounds in the clip slide down into place in the magazine. This can be done VERY quickly with some practice. In this case the clip itself is discarded after use, but it never actually goes into the magazine.

And the third would be the "moon clip" idea for revolvers. This round or semi round clip holds ammo in the position needed to slip right into the cylinder of a revolver. For discussion purposes, the cylinder itself becomes the "magazine" and the rounds remain in the clip, and again the clip and ammo both are inserted into the magazine. This is a VERY fast method of reloading a revolver in that the rounds are already in the circle needed and properly spaced to fit into the cylinder.

As for your specific question regarding an autoloader, in most cases you would not use a clip with an autoloading handgun, but it is very common with autoloading rifles. I use stripper clips with my AR magazines regularly. With an auto loader handgun of course the easiest method is to just have spare magazines loaded and ready.

TexasRifleman
October 20, 2005, 03:54 PM
#5

Nothing is "wrong" with DAO only anymore than anything is "wrong" with a 5-speed transmission vs an automatic.

It's just preference. Some will argue that DAO is better because the trigger pull is always the same. Some will argue that DAO suffers because follow up shots take longer.

It's just personal preference. It is telling however that not many DAO firearms are sold compared to the others. Glocks are not included in this, they are a bit of both. That's for autoloading handguns. If you are a revolver person then DAO is very common, especially for deep concealment revolvers that have no hammer spur. They are very common.

Pick what you like.

TexasRifleman
October 20, 2005, 03:58 PM
#3

Well you have asked a religious question to some extent.

In fact you are probably right in most cases that if you hit someone with ANY load of ammo, you have a good chance of stopping the attack. Being able to hit what you are aiming at is certainly the most important step.

Some will argue that you need every advantage you can get, and every bit of impact energy that can be delivered to your attacker is worth looking into.

It's personal preference again. I want every advantage I can get.

Also, some weapons shoot more accurately with some loads than they do with others, and maybe more reliably.

So, in a defensive firearm it would be a good idea to know what performs best in your weapon.

Lupinus
October 20, 2005, 03:58 PM
1. What does the term "blueing" mean? I think it refers to the color of the gun, but most guns are chrome, stainless steel/silver, and black. Is 'black' considered blue?
As boo said, it it a chemicle that turns the metal of a gun a deep blue. Im not sure of the exact chemicle or process as Ive never done it. But I personaly prefer the look of a blued or black gun or a two tone gun to one that is strait stainless.

2. Why do some handguns cost $500+? What's special about high-priced guns?
Depends on a number of factors. Why do some cars cost fifty thousnd and others 20? Sometimes its because they are worth it because they are extremly good guns. Sometimes because they have nifty little things or actions or other such things. Also guns that are made for heavier calibers are normally more expensive. Bigger round usualy means more preasure. More preasure means the gun and its compnents have to be beefier. For instance if you just took a .22 and enlarged it enough to fit a .45 but left everything else the same (thickness, etc) it would blow up in your hand more likly then not. And of course, sometimes it is just because they are a name and they can. Colt is more recognized and respected then some no name brand gun. Therefor you take a Colt next to said no name brand gun, even if it is just as good or a better weapon, a lot of people will take the colt and pay the extra. Think when you are walkign through the supermarket. Do more people buy the tylenol or the no brand store ibprophin? Same thing. If you look at the ingredients list on the back it's the same medicine in the same doesage. But people know tylenol they feel they can rely on it better so that's what they choose and pay seven dollars a bottle instead of three.

3. What's all this talk about different weight bullets and velocity speeds? I know ammo comes in different weights and speeds but does it really matter in self-defense? If you shoot an average burglar or person trying to do harm against you, wouldn't it get the job done?

The bullet can make a big difference even within the same caliber. Different type of bullets have different expansion and penitration. For instance a FMJ gets go penitration but no wheres near the expansion as a hollow point. The more expansion a bullet has the more of its energy is released in the target giving it more stopping power. If you put a hollow point into someone more of its energy is released then if someone used an armor peircing round (just for instance) and it tears strait through them. Can both kill? Absoloutly. But the bullet that expands more gives off more of its energy into the target giving it better stopping power. Also as to weights it is the same prinicple, more force. 180 grains weighs more then 160 grains therefor has more power behind it. If I were to drop ten pounds onto you and then drop five pounds onto you which is going to do more damage? The heavier weight. Same basic principle.

As to four I am not quite sure what you mean.

Bridger
October 20, 2005, 04:00 PM
A good way to remember it is that the clip feeds the magazine, the magazine feeds the weapon.

Lupinus
October 20, 2005, 04:04 PM
little elaboration on three-

You are right though that most bullets will get most jobs done. On average jsut the scare factor will work. You shoot someone with a 22 and they are likly to run. Shoot me with a 45 and Ill likly die. Shoot me with a 32 and I might not die but I will likly run away crying like a little girl.

Still gets the job done lol.

And also while some bullets are better for some jobs then other shot placement is jsut as important. If you put a FMJ into a guys heart it is going to kill him just as easily as a JHP. But if it goes into a lung, the JHP is likly to stop them faster with a single round then something like a FMJ. Also if it misses and organ compltly and goes into say the shoulder, a bullet that offers more stopping power will get the job done much more effectivly then one that just tears through without much expansion to offer. Shot placement is more important normally. But I'll stick with bullets that offer me the best stoping power at the best accuracy I deem reasonable.

Mauserguy
October 20, 2005, 04:04 PM
Hi hardrafyed,

Bluing is a type of gun finish. It is applied by dipping the metal in a chemical bath. It ranges in color from blue to black. There are other kinds of finishes, such as paints and metalic plating. Each has its ups and downs. For example, paints can provide the cheapest and most consistent finishes, but they chip.

Metal plated guns are more expensive, and the finishes are difficult to repair if they are scratched.

Bluing is not as thick, and does not protect the gun from rusting as well as other finishes, but it can be touched up more easily than some other finishes.

Some guns are over $500.00. This generally they are better made, and may be more accurate. Sometimes, however, some very good guns are sold at cheap prices. The reason for this is basic marketing and economics. Some companies go for the customers who are price sensitive, some go for customers who are willing to pay more. It's a form of price discrimination. Auto manufacturers do this all the time. They may sell the same car under different names, and different cup holder arrangements and charge vastly different prices. The cars will cost the same, and be of the same quality, but one will be marketed as a luxury vehicle, and some will be marketed as economy cars.

Personally, I am a value customer. I will pay more, but I want to make sure that the gun is really worth it. Often they are not.

Different types of ammunition are made for different purposes. Light and fast ammo may expand better, and produce bigger wounds in some attackers, but slow and heavy ammo may produce more tearing. Also, penetration issues may be a concern. For example, I live with neighbors just on the other side of a thin wall. I don't want to use any ammo that is likely to travel through a bad guy, through my wall, and strike my neighbor. Other people don't have that concern, so a cannon may work for them. There are a lot of variables in play when it comes to ammo selection.

Generally, clips are used to load rifles with fixed magazines. For example, on a Mauser rifle, you load it by stripping the rounds out of a stripper clip into a magazine that is permanently attached to the rifle. The clip is then ejected. On other rifles, such as Carcanoes, a clip is inserted down into the magazine. The clip holds the rounds inside the magazine. When the rifle is empty, the clip drops out the bottom of the empty magazine.

DAO, so what? Some people prefer the handling of DAO guns, some don't. Personally, I prefer the single action autos. They have nicer crisp first shot trigger pulls.

Good luck, have fun, and be safe.
Mauserguy

The Real Hawkeye
October 20, 2005, 06:03 PM
I purchased a .45auto not too long ago and I can shoot well with it. I also know the basic firearm safety rules and operation of my pistol.

These questions have been bugging me lately and hopefully I can get some answers.

1. What does the term "blueing" mean? I think it refers to the color of the gun, but most guns are chrome, stainless steel/silver, and black. Is 'black' considered blue?Yes, though some bluing looks a little blue, most look black.

2. Why do some handguns cost $500+? What's special about high-priced guns?Quality of materials and workmanship, cost of manufacturing different designs differs, sometimes the name brand plays a big part.

3. What's all this talk about different weight bullets and velocity speeds? I know ammo comes in different weights and speeds but does it really matter in self-defense? If you shoot an average burglar or person trying to do harm against you, wouldn't it get the job done?Experience and research demonstrates that certain weights, calibers and bullet designs are more effective at stopping a determined attacker, or prey animal. People are always trying to design improvements. In hunting this is important because you don't want to have to go finding and following blood trails for hours on end, and in self defense this is important because an attacker wielding a knife, club or gun, after he is shot several times, could still manage to kill you before he goes down. This is why "stopping power" is important, and the bullet has a lot to do with that.

4. I know the difference between a clip and magazine, however, if the clip just holds loose ammo so it will be nice and neat, wouldn't this make reloading an autoloader harder? (I'm envisioning taking the ammo out of the clip and loading it into a magazine.)In neither a clip or magazine are the rounds (cartridges) held loosely. They are typically held tight by spring pressure.

5. What's wrong with DAO pistols (if there's anything wrong)?

Thanks!Nothing wrong with it. Some people have a problem with a traditional double action auto because you have to transition from a long hard trigger pull to a short light one between one and two, but with a double action only, the trigger pull is always the same. So long as it is always the same, it can be easily mastered. When it's different between shot one and two, it is much more challenging to master. Hope this helps. Keep asking questions.

Shootcraps
October 20, 2005, 06:28 PM
5. They aren't 1911s. :evil:












just kidding. :D

hardrafyed
October 20, 2005, 09:28 PM
Wow. I really appreciate the fast and detailed responses.

Hmmm... let me see if I have any more questions.

1. What's the deal with ear and eye protection? I understand it's important in a closed space such as an indoor range or when you'll be repeatedly shooting... but my gun manual (and other gun manuals I presume) specifically warns about ventilation, eye/ear protection, etc. I get the impression (wrong impression, I know) that I should slap on my safety glasses if I hear someone break into my house.

2. Why do certain states require another background check when you apply for a CCW?

3. Do you think in the next 10 years more laws will be passed in favor of gun owners, or against gun owners?

4. There may have been some discussion about this subject already, but what movie(s) portray guns accurately? I just got finished watching Heat and there wasn't any cars exploding or excessive sparks. :D

5. Just out of curiousity, what are some of the most expensive handguns one can buy? (I'm not referring to old handguns that are considered antiques, etc).

Thanks again.

shermacman
October 20, 2005, 09:38 PM
Welcome!
Let me take a stab at "eyes and ears". Guns are loud, you only have one set of ear drums, protect them. When a gun goes boom it throws off a whole bunch of burning powder, un-burned powder, pieces of brass, pieces of copper and pieces of lead. You only have one set of eyes, protect them.

You are going to fire thousands of rounds for fun and practice (hopefully!). You may never have to fire in self-defense, if you do, those same eyes and ears are going to be your second line of defense (after your brain!). If the threat is real, the best protection for your eyes and ears is to fire until slide lock, regardless of goggles or plugs. Your eyes are going to be worthless if you get gut shot while trying to put your goggles on...

Broadhead
October 20, 2005, 09:44 PM
Eye protection...

Metal targets at an outdoor range, or a metal backstop at an indoor range fragment bullets and you can easily get hit with the pieces--I've felt them many times. The fragment can only do real damage if it gets you in the eye.

Ear protection...

Gunfire can cause permanent hearing loss. I choose to prevent it when doing planned shooting.

I would accept either risk if firing in a social situation.

"If you find life boring, risk it."
--Voltaire--

zookrider
October 20, 2005, 10:18 PM
2. Why do certain states require another background check when you apply for a CCW?

States prerogative. They each get to decide what standard they will use to permit concealed carry.

3. Do you think in the next 10 years more laws will be passed in favor of gun owners, or against gun owners?

Call me an optimist but for the moment things seem to be getting better (AWB sunset, increase in shall issue states, etc.)

4. There may have been some discussion about this subject already, but what movie(s) portray guns accurately? I just got finished watching Heat and there wasn't any cars exploding or excessive sparks.

Ronin and Heat are the cream of the crop imho.

Stevie-Ray
October 20, 2005, 10:28 PM
I would accept either risk if firing in a social situation.
Or in an anti-social situation.:D

The Real Hawkeye
October 20, 2005, 10:41 PM
5. Just out of curiousity, what are some of the most expensive handguns one can buy? (I'm not referring to old handguns that are considered antiques, etc).

Thanks again.You're talking about the semi customs here, I think. They can cost several thousand dollars due to the highest quality of materials and the highesr level of skill and individualized care that goes into them, not to mention the reputation of the custom 'smith whose name is on the gun.

TexasRifleman
October 20, 2005, 10:42 PM
All you really need to know is that the gun Al Pacino used in HEAT was a
Mini 14 :evil: (in case anyone asks)

Lupinus
October 20, 2005, 11:48 PM
1. What's the deal with ear and eye protection? I understand it's important in a closed space such as an indoor range or when you'll be repeatedly shooting... but my gun manual (and other gun manuals I presume) specifically warns about ventilation, eye/ear protection, etc. I get the impression (wrong impression, I know) that I should slap on my safety glasses if I hear someone break into my house.

My first real firing sesion with my guns was a few months ago outside on my uncles property. Threw down about a hundred rounds of .38 special and about ten of 30-30 through my Winchester. Like a dummy, didn't wear ear muffs. I couldn't here msot of the day after it to good. Guns are loud, it is the nature of the beast. If you ever have to fire indoors at an intruder or something if will be a few shots. A few shots isn't likly to destroy your hearing. I think it would take a hell of a gun to blow out an ear drum but what even a small caliber gun will do is slowly wear out your hearing. Just like anyone who is around loud things alot (people who work with jack hammers, etc.). So while even indoors a few rounds isn't likly to blow out an ear drum shooting puts a big strain on the ears. They didn't evolve to deal with such loud noise, esspecialy the amount someone who shoots reguarly will subject themselves to. So wear your ear muffs. As for the eyes unlike the ears this is something that will go fast if a fragment or god forbid a barrel burst happens and a piece of metal gets your eye. I wear glasses 24/7 (and the lenses arn't exactly thin) so I normally pass up on safty goggles, but always wear ear muffs since the first time and I couldn't hear worth a damn for two hours. And even if you wear prescription glasses getting special prescription safty glasses, those high tech lenses, or finding safty glasses that fit over them isn't a bad idea. So for regular shooting yes. Wear them. If someone breaks in your house or you are carrying concealed it's a risk you will have to take as you wont have the time. But normally, wear them.

3. Do you think in the next 10 years more laws will be passed in favor of gun owners, or against gun owners?

We tend to head off on the extreme end and then bounce back. That seems to be how we do most everything. Right now as far as guns go I think we are entering a bounce back. It wont be easy but I think the US is about to get more and more gun friendly. Esspecialy if the NRA kicks it into high gear.

Stand_Watie
October 21, 2005, 12:19 AM
500 dollar guns. I'll take a stab at that question. In my humble opinion, typically the difference between a 400 and a 500 dollar gun is small and so subjective as to be meaningless to any but hard core gun afficianados...what I call "preference" and "bells and whistles". The difference between a 100 and a 200 dollar gun though, in terms of quality can be very large.

Read through this forum, run a search on "junk guns" and you'll get a lot of good information, but when it comes down to choosing between a 4 hundred dollar Beretta vs a 5 hundred dollar Colt, a 4 hundred dollar Smith & Wesson vs a 5 hundred dollar Walther, your going to see a lot of personal opinion that you'd have to have a lifetime of heavy shooting experience to differentiate. The old "Ford vs Chevy" debate.

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