If there were a modern horse cavalry...

If there were a modern horse cavalry, what pistol should they carry, and why?

That assumes they would be involved in mounted combat, which isn't all that likely. Mounted troops in modern warfare could be used in jungle and mountain fighting, escorting mule trains and so on.

In any case, the M1911 was the last pistol selected for real horse troopers, and no one has ever proven it was the wrong selection.:D

I dunno, what were those mounted SpecOps guys in Afghanistan carrying? :D I bet 1911s, but they may have had the HK Mod23 or whatever that huge thing is called. :confused:
(I was at the Ft Lewis PX yesterday and they had a mounted GI Joe! In Desert Camo, M4 carbine, etc.) :what:

American horse cavalry, even before the Civil War, tended to fight as mounted infantry, not as true European style cavalry. Confederate cavalry regiments even kept one or two companies armed with rifle muskets, for longer range in dismounted combat.

And, of course, cavalry, like many another arm, is often equipped with the wrong weapons.

When I was with the 1st Cav, we had a mounted horse platoon. They had .45 Colt SAs and performed the drills from the 1873 Cav Manual.

One day we had a call from the Park Police in Big Bend. They had a couple of instances of returning gunfire from horseback. The horses objected violently and the guys asked us for advice. Seems to me tthat one of their folks drove up and spent the day with the horse platoon. IIRC, one of the problems was that horses could be accustomed to the lower pressure rounds (.45, .38, .44) but the .357s were a bit too loud.

I'd vote for a .45ACP myself.

Smith & Wesson model 625 in .45LC

With that they would be able to displace most
criter's; as well as evil do'er's!:uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

If they had access to "modern" pistols, like the Steyr SPP or Micro Uzi, the modern cavalry would last until one of their foes picked up a dropped UZI. Machine guns, even subguns, were the death of cavalry.

But if you want to play, they would be issued something with huge mag that would require infrequent reloads. Your choice.

Give them all carbines.

Modern Cav use horses for transportation. They dismount for fighting. Usually one out of 4 men stay back & hold the reins.

Horses and men riding them make big targets for automatic weapons.

Afghanistan is great example of modern use for horse in military conflict, as irregular fighters in barren terrain.

I'd say the M-1 Garand.
I would think that a guy on horseback would be a very difficult target to hit. He would also be able to fire and move very quickly in comparison to regular light infantry. Why not give him a gun that he could get those accurate shots off with at ranges that most of his enemies couldn't hit him at, especially at full gallop.
Then again, to hell with the horses.
Give them 4-wheelers.;)

I think that the last successful charge of formed cavalry was in 1857 by the Light Brigade against Russian heavy guns. While the guns were destroyed, so was the cavalry.

Last cavalry charges were in WWII by the Polish Lancers against the Germans. Needless to say, they were slaughtered.

US and Phillippino cavalry charged successfully during MacArthur's "sideslip" to withdraw into the Batann Peninsula in 1942.

The death of cavalry wasn't so much machineguns as barbed wire.

I heard a report on NPR which mentioned an honest-to-god cavalry attack in Afghanistan. It was a coordinated effort between some Northern Alliance troops on horseback and a US Army SF soldier calling in close air support.

IIRC, the US soldier was concerned because the timing of the air strike was slightly delayed, and he thought that it would land after the NA troops were already at the target. As it happened, the bombs hit later than planned, but before the "cavalry charge" got there. The mounted troops were on their objective before the Taliban forces emerged from their cover.

If true, that's a pretty cool.

I think that the last successful charge of formed cavalry was in 1857 by the Light Brigade against Russian heavy guns. Aside from all those cavalry troopers South AND North who DID do some charging during the American CIvil War, Winston Churchill was in a cavalry charge during the Sudan campaign in the late 1800s. He called it "the last cavalry charge", and he may have thought it would be when he wrote about it.

D.W. Drang-

I have Churchill's, "My Early Life" and,"The River War". He described the charge at Omdurman in 1898 very well.

His sidearm, as you probably know, was a Mauser M96 7.63mm. He claimed three certain kills, two possible, and two "doubtful" from a ten-round magazine. Not bad shooting from horseback!

In recent years, Rhodesian mounted troops were used effectively to flush terrorists from bush country. However, they were more mounted infantry than cavalry.

Lone Star

accurate shots off with at ranges that most of his enemies couldn't hit him at, especially at full gallop.

Accurate shots at full gallop? :what:

I heard a report on NPR which mentioned an honest-to-god cavalry attack in Afghanistan. It was a coordinated effort between some Northern Alliance troops on horseback and a US Army SF soldier calling in close air support.

Wow, after you said this, I was intrigued, so I looked around a bit, and...

One good solid article:

http://www.observer.co.uk/Distribution/Redirect_Artifact/0,4678,0-578182,00.html

A couple of mentions:

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/terror2001/horse9_20011109.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/attacked/transcripts/rumsfeld_text112101.html


So, the cavalry lives on!

And...

DoD Images: US Special Forces On Horseback
Wednesday, 21 November 2001, 3:06 pm
Press Release: US Department of Defence

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0111/S00167.htm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0111/52eacfe275f96f1456a7.jpeg

I would wager that if people are fighting with horses, there will eventually be some sort of cavalry charge.

Likewise with bayonets if they are issued. There were bayonet charges in WWII and Korea (maybe Vietnam?), but they were few and far between.

Some SASS folks still do mounted shooting. The key is to get the horses accustomed to the noise of gunfire. Their hearing is much more sensative than human hearing so it hurts more. (Also don't shoot over their heads, shoot to the side.)

I would opt for something like a Sig 226 or HK USP. I used to ride quite frequently and can imagine that combining hard riding with combat, you want to reload as little as possible if you need your sidearm. I would certainly throw a laser up on that for quick target acquisition on the move.

I would go for the 1911 + an M4 carbine. Make sure you bring a good lanyard.


MJRW- How are you going to pick up a small laser dot painted on the target when both you and your target is moving? :confused:

I figure every little thing will help. I'm not saying get rid of the sights, but man, when a horse is moving I can't imagine you can line up the sights at all. I've done a lot of horse riding in my day, not much firing from horse back, but a whole lot of riding. And when they are moving, it ain't exactly smooth. Maybe a red dot up on it would help.

Maybe a longslide glock 9mm with a 32 round magazine would be nice. or an hk mp5k-pdw.

...they'd be riding KTMs. :D

It better have a lanyard ring.

Colt New Service Army Models ended up in the Cavalry in WW2, as a carry over from their use in horse units.

In Afghanistan, whatever our guys were issued.

Still, your pistol ought to be capable of putting down a horse.

Accurate shots at full gallop?

I meant that they could shoot the bad guy, then take off like a bat out of hell.
Since a horse can run alot faster than a man, it would be more difficult for the enemy to hit you if you were 600 yards away, and riding at full gallop, rather than 600 yards away and running like hell.

But now that you mention it, I did once see footage of Asian warriors (I think that they were japanese) riding along, and shooting a bow from horseback. As I recall, they ALWAYS hit the bulls eye on the target.

One hand shooting at close range with multiple opponents? G-21 .45ACP for me please

Here is some of T. E. Lawrence's (...of Aradia, yeah, that guy) writing on a Arab camel charge that he started against the Turks, but didn't quite finish. The amusement comes in the last line.

"I had got among the first of them, and was shooting, with a pistol of course, for only an expert could use a rifle from such plunging beasts; when suddenly my camel tripped and went down emptily upon her face, as though pole-axed. I was torn completely from the saddle, sailed grandly through the air for a great distance, and landed with a crash which seemed to drive all the power and feeling out of me. I lay there, passively waiting for the Turks to kill me, continuing to hum over the verses of a half-forgotten poem …….

While another part of my mind thought what a squashed thing I should look when all that cataract of men and camels had poured over.

After a long time I finished my poem, and no Turks came, and no camel trod on me: a curtain seemed taken from my ears: there was a great noise in front. I sat up and saw the battle over, and our men driving together and cutting down the last remnants of the enemy. My camel's body had laid behind me like a rock and divided the charge into two streams: and in the back of its skull was the heavy bullet of the fifth shot I fired."

Lesson: don't shoot your trusty steed.

Bart Noir
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Two points have been raised here -- one is that mounted action is fast. A horse can do about 30 MPH. Two horses closing on each other have a combined speed of 60 MPH, or 88 fps.

Given the short range at which one can expect hits, you have about 1/4 seconds to get off your shot. Which tells us that magazine capacity isn't really all that critical. You can't empty an M1911 in four or five mounted encounters.

Next, your target is really the horse -- he's bigger and easier to hit. So you need a gun that will do some damage to a horse (which is why horses and beeves were shot during the Thompson-La Garde tests.)

Which says to me that you're looking for penetration...REAL penetration. On the order of two feet of penetration through horseflesh. What rounds can do that reliably? This explains why the Colt Walkers were so big.

If you need penetration from a modern combat auto I think you would do well to pick the 10mm.

MP5-K in .45 or 10mm.

With the speed & ruckus of that kind of conflict, I'd want something w/ a lot of ammo capacity & burst-fire capacity. Maybe using one of the shooting slings that, when you stretch it, can provide shooting support.

I'd also back it up w/ a sidearm using the same caliber...

Horses are for transportation. Effective fighting must take place on the ground.
Mounted cavalry was of the most use when all parties involved fought with edged weapons. The advantage was that cavalry could overwhelm their opponets by fighting from a higher position and could use the horses to knock over infantry by charging through them.

Which handgun?

One that is slaved to a stabilized sight. :D

Take a look at SASS shooters -- they use blanks to break balloons. This is a good indicator of the capability of shooting from a galloping horse -- "point blank" is an understatement.

That's why high magazine capacity is no advantage -- you don't have time for more than one shot anyway. Nor does full auto fire do anything for you -- hell, full auto fire in shoulder weapons, while standing flat-footed on hard ground is less effective than aimed semi-auto fire!