Army assault rifle 'lost' in Pembrokeshire


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Drizzt
October 21, 2005, 12:29 AM
Army assault rifle 'lost' in Pembrokeshire

Oct 19 2005

By James Tapsfield


An intensive search continued today after a second soldier lost a firearm within a week.

An SA80 assault rifle went missing during an army exercise in Pembrokeshire, the Ministry of Defence confirmed.

It reportedly belonged to a sergeant major in 14 Signals Regiment who was taking part in the training with 900 other soldiers.

Story continues Continue story

The exercise was suspended when officers realised the weapon – capable of firing 700 rounds a minute – had been lost on Monday morning.

An MoD spokesman said: “There is an SA80 rifle that has been lost.

“It went missing during an exrcise in Pembrokeshire, and belonged to a member of 14 Signals Regiment.

He added: “The incident is being investigated by the Special Investigation Branch.”

On Saturday another soldier left a gun loaded with 13 rounds of blank ammunition in the disabled toilet of a Sainsbury’s store in Hitchin, Herts.

She was named in a national newspaper as Captain Alice Bromage.

A 20-year-old man from Ickleford, Herts, was arrested yesterday morning on suspicion of theft by finding the 9mm pistol.

Herts Police confirmed that the US-made Sig Sauer automatic pistol had been found.

It was recovered by officers from a postbox in the Hitchin area this morning.

The Sun reported that the latest weapon had been lost by an Artificer Sergeant Major who was in charge of a 90-strong group of soldiers.

He apparently handed it to one of his juniors at a temporary command post before going to do some administrative work, and could not find the weapon when he returned.

The 14th Signals Regiment is part of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. The regiment is based in Wales, and acts as the army’s electronic warfare specialists.

The loss is being probed by the Special Investigation Branch of the Royal Military Police.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16266917&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=army-assault-rifle--lost--in-pembrokeshire-name_page.html

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Crosshair
October 21, 2005, 12:43 AM
Well, they need to ban guns from the military and police now. I LOVE how they had to mention that it CAN fire 700 gnds per min.:barf: :banghead:

carebear
October 21, 2005, 12:53 AM
"Get the boys on line, we're walking across this shire til we find it."

Good job Ma'am and Sgt. Major. Way to lead by example.:rolleyes:

Vane
October 21, 2005, 02:12 AM
I was stationed in the UK when they banned pistols, what a mess! An urban culture largely opposed to guns is going to have a Hell of a time using them when they need them.
Our own military is pretty bad, because we don't practice enough when not in actual combat, and only "elite" forces get anywhere near close to enough practice to be proficient. Over my almost 27 years in I have seen times when the Marines and Navy units couldn't get ammo to do annual quals with. I had to send my Marines to Parris Island since they couldn't get ammo from the Army when stationed on an Army base. Some Army units qualified folks with electronic attachments on their M-16s (getting their marksmanship medals), none of the bang and smell of cordite - no recoil too, I suppose that helps! We have folks in the military scared of firearms and unfortunately they are not corpsmen and medics! When I was in Bahrain (25km from Saudi Arabia over the Causeway) and heading to Kuwait in March of 03, I went, requal'd with the Beretta, but couldn't get one, because all the supply guys had taken them (they look cool)! And we didn't have enough for all the Sailors heading up for the war! That is what happens after years of no funding! I have heard that the Army maintains a ton in warehouses for war, but haven't heard of them breaking any 1911A1s out. I would have rather had a .45ACP we used to carry instead of the Beretta anyway. But they aren't issuing them! The only way to get proficient is with practice. At the base I am stationed (or rather where my ship is homeported), no private firearms or ammo is allowed! That really encourages proficiency! But it does make the ninnies happy. And our JAGs (lawyers)! .:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Kurush
October 21, 2005, 02:51 AM
I wouldn't worry about it too much, if a crazed killer gets his hands on it it'll probably jam, spontaneously drop out the magazine, and crack the takedown pins before he can cause much damage :neener:

ghost squire
October 21, 2005, 03:39 AM
Vane, you insight into the state of the British military is fascinating, I had no idea how unprepared they were. One can't really blame them, a lack of funds and probably any respect from the public caused this.

kage genin
October 21, 2005, 03:42 AM
Herts Police confirmed that the US-made Sig Sauer automatic pistol had been found.
Hoplophobes blaming the US for their gun problems again? Why the need to say that the pistol, though a SIG, was made in the US? Are they suggesting ever-so-subtly that all guns involved in crimes in the UK, or that get lost in the UK (and perhaps subsequently being used in crime), come from the US.:fire:

Janitor
October 21, 2005, 07:01 AM
He apparently handed it to one of his juniors at a temporary command post before going to do some administrative work, and could not find the weapon when he returned.
Hmmm. Ok ... I've not been in the service, so bear with me here ...

If you're a Sergeant Major (an 'Artificer'???), and you hand a weapon to a subordinate of some sort - well - I'd assume that you'd leave (some sort of) instructions as to the disposition of that weapon with the subordinate. Right? I mean - you're a Sergeant Major ... may not be a rocket surgeon, but not a complete idiot. Right? At least something like "Keep an eye on my piece for me" or "Take this to the dry cleaners. And don't leave without the claim ticket."

Ok ... now ... you give this subordinate your weapon, give them instructions, come back later and can't find your weapon?

What the f...? Can you at least kick the subordinates a$$?

I am obviously missing something here. Someone able to help out with this?

-

GunGoBoom
October 21, 2005, 09:40 AM
thank goodness it was an SA80 and not a working gun. :)

BFWE
October 21, 2005, 09:52 AM
Yes... when I was in the Corps (79-85) I had to buy an Colt AR-15 and go to public range to get enough practice. I thought it was disgusting that an active duty Marine would have to go to such lengths just to maintain basic skills.

Ohh well... we all know that it will be the Preditor RPV's and jet-jocks that win the next war anyway (sarcasim!) so it's not neccessary that Grunts be able to shoot.

Sorry for straying from the subject of "Lost Assult Weapons".

I did have a number of opportunites to serve alongside our British brothers in arms. The only ones I found to be worth anything were the Royal Marines. At least they understood that their rifles were their lives in combat.

cracked butt
October 21, 2005, 10:01 AM
Jeez. I were to happen to be a Brittish civillian and were to pay an army official big bucks (or is it Pounds or Euros now?) to 'lose' an assault rifle, it had better be something better than an SA-80.

But that's just my take on things.;)

1 old 0311
October 21, 2005, 10:07 AM
Somebody's ass is in a sling. In the states there was NO reason to loose a weapon. That was court marshall time. In Vietnam it was like picking apples off a tree. Plenty everywhere and nobody cared.

Kevin

DirksterG30
October 21, 2005, 10:16 AM
thank goodness it was an SA80 and not a working gun. :) ROTFL!! Good one, GunGoBoom!

cane
October 21, 2005, 10:25 AM
VANE: You stated "We have folks in the military scared of firearms and unfortunately they are not corpsman and medics". I'm sure you have vast combat experence serving on a Navy vessel, and that's what you based that statement on. Before you tar a group of people, I suggest you get some dirt time in a combat zone and maybe your opinion of corpsmen and medics will change.

Leatherneck
October 21, 2005, 10:40 AM
Uh, cane?
Over my almost 27 years in
I had to send my Marines to Parris Island since they couldn't get ammo from the Army
Might want to read what Vane ported again before you round on him. Marines deploy aboard US Navy ships.
Welcome to THR, Vane.
TC

jondar
October 21, 2005, 10:56 AM
That doesn't change the implication in Vane's post. In my opinion, makes's it worse/

cane
October 21, 2005, 04:01 PM
Leatherneck, I retired after 20 yrs in the Navy with the rank of Chief Hospital Corpsman, I served 14 of those years with the Fleet Marine Force in one capicity or another. One of my awards is a Combat Action Ribbon, I stand by my post

MillCreek
October 21, 2005, 05:18 PM
Also in response to Vane, my wife put in 20 years in the Navy, retiring as a HMC (SW), spent some time on the 'green side' and did several IDC tours. When she was the shipboard IDC, she was issued a M-9 and shot it a lot for fun. The Marine detachment on her Spruance-class destroyer used to rag her about stealing their ammo. And when she goes with the range with me, she certainly does not look scared as she is lighting off the .357 125 grain JHPs from her SP-101. Having had the pleasure of meeting several of her former shipmates from Bangor, Naval Station Everett and Naval Hospital Bremerton, and gone shooting with some of them, I can think of a lot of corpsmen who are not afraid of firearms.

griz
October 21, 2005, 05:21 PM
I've never served in the military, but I thought to make Captain you had to have already figured out that keeping track of weapons was required:scrutiny:

cane
October 21, 2005, 06:25 PM
Leatherneck, just curious, do you agree with Vane about corpsmen and medics being scared of firearms? BTW Vane's public profile states he is in the Navy.

LaVere
October 21, 2005, 07:22 PM
From the article it sounded like it was a 30 mm canon or a what ever super death weapon. Looking it up I see it is a small rifle and cute looking, at that.
The rifle that is. :rolleyes:

http://lavere.net/Gallery/albums/album02Guns/sa80_1.jpg

carebear
October 21, 2005, 07:23 PM
Not the ones in my unit. Male or female they loved putting rounds downrange.

A couple of them loved it so much I felt the need to have a heart-to-heart with them about the priority of patching me up BEFORE avenging my injury. :evil:

cracked butt
October 21, 2005, 07:36 PM
.

AirForceShooter
October 21, 2005, 07:41 PM
The captain I understand.
But a Sgt Major losing a weapon?????
I thought that was flat out impossible

AFS

Crosshair
October 21, 2005, 08:30 PM
Wow, is the SA80 really THAT much of a crappy weapon?:confused:

Greg L
October 22, 2005, 12:09 AM
Hmmm. Ok ... I've not been in the service, so bear with me here ...

If you're a Sergeant Major (an 'Artificer'???), and you hand a weapon to a subordinate of some sort - well - I'd assume that you'd leave (some sort of) instructions as to the disposition of that weapon with the subordinate.

RSM: " 'Ere, hang on to this for a sec. I've got to hit the can"
Captain: "Private, run this message to the Major RIGHT NOW"
Private: "Er.....um.....but....er....yes sir"
RSM: "Where the bloody 'ell is that #@$@!#! blighter"

[Thread drift] Back in basic, my bunkmate managed to lose his rifle while we were out in the DARK woods of Ft. Knox in the middle of July (the height of undergrowth season). An HOUR after he realizes that he forgot it he slides up to me & asks "Uh, do you think I should mention this to the Drill?" God that was a long night with the entire training batallion beating the bushes looking for that thing. Thankfully (for him at least) his dad was a 2 star & we eventually found the rifle (just in time to forget about sleep & head off to the next day's activities).

MD_Willington
October 22, 2005, 02:01 AM
CFB Chilliwack had a bit of a problem with L1A2's going over the fence every once in a while, a college buddy was in DNDCA when that happened...

Kurush
October 22, 2005, 03:45 AM
Wow, is the SA80 really THAT much of a crappy weapon?:confused:We were teasing... mostly. The first version was awful, but they've worked some of the bugs out. It's still too heavy, poorly balanced, fragile, and like most bullpups you can't transition it to your weak shoulder without disassembling it first (unless you don't mind having brass eject into your ear).

Personally, I also think it's the ugliest assault rifle ever designed.

Rabbi
October 22, 2005, 04:25 AM
In my war (1965-1968) there were tons of "docs" from Navy Corpsmen to Army to Air Force who got it done. Most knew a gun, one end from the other and could take hits when it had to happen.

Except for the SAS, the damn Brits have been "war fags" since WWII and only a few elite services have been exempt.

Guys, wake the f**k up, they beat schoolboys in class and half the alleged schoolmasters use 'em sexually. We're talking "Great" Britain here.

We gave them a half million rifles under "Lend/Lease" and in the sixties, they bulldozed them into the North Sea because they think guns are evil.

F the British where they sit down and also where they put their lunch.

British Isles, my American ass.

Vane
October 22, 2005, 05:12 AM
I am currently serving aboard ship. My last tour (May 2001-May2003) was in the Middle East where I worked with our coalition partners (primarily Brits and Aussies, but also Spanish, etc.). I was not tarring all our guys, and certainly not our Marines, SEALs and the Army combat arms guys. Nor specifically noncombatants (corpsmen and medics), for whom I have the utmost respect (my Dad was a Marine from WWII to Vietnam and my uncle a Corpsman in Korea). My point was we have military folks who are actually afraid of firearms and not qualified with them, but they ought to be, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no defined line. Supply folks get ambushed(like Jessica Lynch) for example. By the way we are all together serving over in Afghanistan and Iraq, although the Army and Marines are bearing the brunt of combat. The first guys into Umm Qasr were Navy, then USMC, then Royal Marines to tackle the snipers (they had some practice in Ulster with that). There just doesn't appear to be enough ammo for everybody to practice with as much as I personally believe necessary. I was not kidding about having to send my Marines (I was their department head in a mixed Navy/Marine shop) to Parris Island to get their quals done (that was just to be current, not extra rounds to improve their skills). While chatting with a buddy today I learned that the Navy is the only service that makes the guys buy their own ammo in order to practice for the Navy pistol team! That is pretty poor. And because of bureaucrats in the bookkeeping department, from what I gathered.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

8Balls
October 22, 2005, 07:06 AM
We were teasing... mostly. The first version was awful, but they've worked some of the bugs out. It's still too heavy, poorly balanced, fragile, and like most bullpups you can't transition it to your weak shoulder without disassembling it first (unless you don't mind having brass eject into your ear).

Personally, I also think it's the ugliest assault rifle ever designed.

Last summer i put 4 mags through SA80 (That was supposed to be the improved version, modified by H&K). (1st mag, single shots, second double taps and the last 2 full auto). I got 1 mystery malfunction and 9 ftfs (gun tried to feed multiple rounds). And the gun itself was f***ing puzzle. :scrutiny: After that i was more than happy to get my RK95 back. Now thats a working and accurate gun!

cane
October 22, 2005, 10:20 AM
Gosh Vane, you must have a rough MOS, been on sea duty for over 4 yrs. After 27 yrs you should be senior enough to catch some shore duty. I don't know why you singled out corpsmen and medics in your origional post, but that and a couple of other things you said sure makes me curious. It is true that if you are trying to get on the Navy Pistol Team you must buy your own ammo to practice with. Once you are a member of the team, practice ammo is provided, just to make sure there wasn't any misunderstanding.

Majic
October 22, 2005, 08:12 PM
Has anyone ever heard of any military releasing any kind of news like this? :rolleyes:

iapetus
October 23, 2005, 09:14 AM
The new version of the SA80 supposedly works...

(exerpt from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/19/narmy19.xml)

"Our arsenal is now a lot bigger, has greater capability and gives us much more options on the ground," said Colour Sgt Rod Poulter 34, who recently finished training 40 Iraqi NCOs in the Beacons. He added that while the old SA80 rifle had "many, many faults", with recent modifications it was now "a world beater".

While the much derided original SA80 rifle failed in numerous operations, its successor the SA80 A2 was now "the best weapon in the world" after 24 modifications were made in a £90 million overhaul four years ago.

"As a section commander I now know that I can stop the enemy and in close combat kill them because my weapons will work in all terrains," Sgt Poulter said.

The troops were now "more than happy" with what they had got although some grumbled about the loss of capability for using the bayonet.

Kurush
October 23, 2005, 01:49 PM
According to HK people who have reliability problems aren't cleaning them well enough. Of course, cleaning them well enough can be a problem when you're, you know, fighting a war or something. When you said "world beater" I had this image of a frustrated soldier clubbing his SA80 against the ground out of frustration :p

Jim K
October 23, 2005, 07:27 PM
On one visit to Stonehenge, I pulled my rental car up beside a British army truck (like our 3/4 ton) in the parking lot. The tail gate was up but the canvas flap was open. That truck was crammed with Sterling SMG's. There was not a soldier within 100 yards; two or three were spread out, looking at the monument*. No guard, no driver. Further, the rear of the truck was facing away from them. Of course, I would have had no way to get one of the guns back home, but what a temptation! I could have easily have thrown a half dozen guns in the car "boot" and driven off, with no one the wiser until they went to take inventory back at the base.

I simply could not believe the total lack of security.

Jim

*That was when it was possible to actually walk up to the stones and touch them, something that can't be done any more.

JK

captain obvious
October 24, 2005, 12:40 AM
I'm going to have to have to fall into the "what's the big deal" crowd - i mean the rifle will probably end up returned to their office doorstep, with a rather angry note attached.

hayabusa
November 4, 2005, 10:38 AM
In your war? Not exactly a successful one was it? Lets face it, the Brits are probably 'war fags' as the last time we went with them into a conflict in Iraq 1991, all their casualties were due to our 'friendly fire.'

They did successfully mount a naval operation to the Falklands some 8000 miles away, winning that war back in '82 when we wouldnt support them.

Corporal punishment has long been banned in the UK and I think you may be a bit controversial there with your views on their schoolmasters.

I think we have a lot to thank the British for, lets not forget that the US Navy was founded by a Scotsman! :neener:

Medusa
November 4, 2005, 11:02 AM
They did successfully mount a naval operation to the Falklands some 8000 miles away, winning that war back in '82 when we wouldnt support them.


Yes they did and lost some ships, like a Type 42 destroyer, and would have lost some more if the argentinean pilots would be a little more up the task (the didn't lack the courage, though) AND if the bomb fuses would have been higher quality products.

I believe the problems are not in the soldiers, but rather in the political leadership as from there most of the crap comes.

scout26
November 4, 2005, 11:20 PM
To quote Gen. Eisenhower during WWII:

"Isn't it enough that we have to fight the enemy ??"

Drizzt
November 4, 2005, 11:48 PM
to be fair, we almost lost a ship to an Exocet missile a while back as well. The ironic thing with Exocets is, they're more dangerous when they don't work properly. The ship will take less damage if the warhead goes off like it's supposed to.

mr.trooper
November 5, 2005, 12:40 AM
Not surprising. One of our local officers just lost his Tazer, and 16" LEO AR-15.

Aparently he left his cruiser door unlocked while he was inside some shop (The specific type of pastries left to the imagination), And returned to find his Tazer and Carbine missing from his vehicle. :rolleyes:

OOPS.

DRZinn
November 5, 2005, 01:35 AM
Vane didn't say corpsmen and medics are afraid of weapons. What he said was that some people in the military are, and they AREN'T corpsmen or medics. At worst, he was implying that it would be less of a problem for a corpsman or medic to be afraid of weapons than someone else. An assertion that can hardly be disputed.

Moonclip
November 5, 2005, 01:43 AM
You might be surprised how many people in the military are anti gun or gun shy. Qualifying with a 12 ga was always a cause for whining by some.

Our XO at the base once told the exchange not to have gun magazines as they were "violent".

cane
November 5, 2005, 10:23 PM
DOC, that's not what he said, he said they're not corpsman and medics, don't change his posts. After reading his posts, I think he's a poser. Even "shops" where Navy and Marine personnel are assigned together, there is a Marine who handles things like rifle re-qual.

MillCreek
November 5, 2005, 11:08 PM
Not to mention that after 27 years in, he certainly pulled a lot of sea duty. An amazing amount, for someone who should be an E-8 or E-9 after 27 years. Of course, there certainly are some of the NECs that pull a lot of sea duty.

Drizzt
November 6, 2005, 12:46 AM
Army admits ten guns missing

JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR

TEN British Army weapons have gone missing in the UK in the past year, raising fears they may fall into the hands of criminals.

Among the missing arms is at least one SA-80 rifle, the standard weapon of the British infantry, capable of firing dozens of bullets in seconds.

And at least four powerful 9mm pistols are also officially considered lost, the Ministry of Defence admits. Only one of the guns has been recovered.

On 6 October, a soldier from the 14 Signals Regiment mislaid his SA-80 at Templeton training camp in Pembrokeshire, Wales. Royal Military Police searches failed to recover the rifle, leading to fears it has been taken by someone outside the army.

The MoD figures came to light this week after Stephen Crabb, the Conservative MP whose Preseli Pembrokeshire constituency includes the Templeton camp, raised the matter.

"While we hope they do not find their way into the hands of criminals, I suspect some probably do," Mr Crabb said.

• This week, a pistol went missing at a nuclear power plant at Springfields in Lancashire. The handgun and 30 rounds of ammunition were reported lost from an armoury operated by the Civil Nuclear Constabulary.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=2197312005

Stand_Watie
November 6, 2005, 02:09 AM
Vane didn't say corpsmen and medics are afraid of weapons. What he said was that some people in the military are, and they AREN'T corpsmen or medics

DOC, that's not what he said, he said they're not corpsman and medics, don't change his posts...

..We have folks in the military scared of firearms and unfortunately they are not corpsmen and medics!..

^ ^ ^
Just to make sure we're all on the same page here regarding what I'm referring to - I don't see any particular disparagement of corpsman or medics in that comment.

Ryder
November 6, 2005, 02:28 AM
Keep an eye on my piece for me

Not allowed when I served. We had to maintain possession at all times and expected to use force if necessary. Release to any person regardless of rank was only permitted during formal inspection.

I still practice this. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks I guess :D

DRZinn
November 6, 2005, 03:33 AM
What he said:We have folks in the military scared of firearms and unfortunately they are not corpsmen and medics!

What I said:Vane didn't say corpsmen and medics are afraid of weapons. What he said was that some people in the military are, and they AREN'T corpsmen or medics.

Then you said:DOC, that's not what he said, he said they're not corpsman and medics, don't change his posts.Are you paying attention?

NIB
November 6, 2005, 04:30 AM
An Officer or Senior NCO losing thier weapon is no surprise to me. Everytime I was "locked down" in the Army was because some Officer or Senior NCO lost thier weapon. Of course we were the ones who always caught hell for it.

The best one of all was when I was in the 101st. We had a Sgt Major lose his M-9 pistol. We all got locked down in the field, complete shake down of our equipment in the dirt, tear down of everything that wasn't bolted or welded, no sleep all night. And in the end it turns out that Son of a Bees Wax Sgt Major had put his M-9 in his duffle bag and forgot about it.

:cuss: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :banghead: :cuss:

saspic
November 6, 2005, 09:18 PM
Army admits ten guns missing

JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR

<snip>
And at least four powerful 9mm pistols are also officially considered lost, the Ministry of Defence admits. Only one of the guns has been recovered.
<snip>
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=2197312005
God no! Imagine the destruction that may rain down upon the U.K. with those powerful 9mm pistols out there. :eek:

carebear
November 6, 2005, 09:26 PM
Heck,

And DocZinn can probably back me up here.

I've been shoulder to shoulder shuffling back and forth shoulder deep in the surf zone off Red Beach feeling with my feet at night when someone had a rubber rifle get ripped off by a wave.

I can't imagine ever getting liberty again if a real rifle went into the drink.

AF_INT1N0
November 6, 2005, 09:32 PM
Wait a minute..


[QUOTE][/US-made Sig Sauer automatic pistol had been foundQUOTE]


My Sig 228 says MADE IN GERMANY on it...

*** over?

Oh right.. evil Guns come from evil Capitalist/Gun Loving, no riot over a Soccer Game, No gun Losing NCO Tolerating America..

DRZinn
November 6, 2005, 09:55 PM
And DocZinn can probably back me up here.In my case it was hours and hours in Kuwait walking back and forth over miles of sand looking for a 9mm lost by a RECON CAPTAIN!

cane
November 6, 2005, 10:04 PM
DocZinn, I stand by my previous posts, apparently I wasn't the only one to understand the post the same way.

carebear
November 6, 2005, 10:05 PM
Recon CWO4 (I think that trumps a mere Captain since he was a no-joke GUNNER) didn't have deuce gear on and just stuck the M9 in the slash pocket on his Goretex jacket.

My team and I were forced to E&E through Narvik (Norway) avoiding the "come back and help us look" (some enlisted must have stole it) parties for 3 hours til they found it in a boot hole in the snow where he had bent over or something.

KriegHund
November 6, 2005, 10:06 PM
meh, theyll get the mag full of ammo and then it will run out. Lest they seek illegal sources of ammo, or someonw "loses" some.

Sides, arent SA_80's sposed to jame every other round :p

Meta4
November 6, 2005, 10:34 PM
powerful 9mm

Oxymoron.

-James

DRZinn
November 7, 2005, 12:10 AM
apparently I wasn't the only one to understand the post the same way.I hope you take solace in the fact that others were WRONG with you. Vane doesn't really need me to defend him, but what he said was so obvious that misunderstanding it is pathetic.

Reminds me of a fight in high school after I said "I know your mother taught you better than that," to which the reply was "Why you talkin' sh-- 'bout my mama?"

cane
November 7, 2005, 07:46 AM
Gosh, guess Vane needs someone to defend him, since he won't defend himself. Guess anyone who doesn't agree with you is always wrong, no matter how many they are.

Marko Kloos
November 7, 2005, 08:44 AM
Kindly take it to email or PMs, as of right now.

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