Mosin nagant m38 as a Scout/shtf weapon?


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Hammerhead Shark
October 21, 2005, 10:20 AM
new here, I just bought an M38 from big 5 for $79.95 and I want to make a Scout/shtf rifle out of it. is this a good idea? thanks

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MrTuffPaws
October 21, 2005, 10:22 AM
I have an M44, and I have to say that I love the gun. The M38s I hear are nice too. The problem is that by the time you find a scope mount and scope, get the gun tapped and mounted, you just spent twice the cost of the gun.

Hammerhead Shark
October 21, 2005, 10:26 AM
a friend sold me a scout mount & long eye relief scope for $50. the mount replaces the rear sight leaf, so I don't have to drill & tap it. I can still use stripper clip to reload too.

armoredman
October 21, 2005, 11:09 AM
There are scope ounts that replace the rear sight, and are easy to mount. the belt handle bolt body is around, and can be had from TG Guns and Numrich, I think. Much better than butchering the 65 year old bolt to "bend" it. Stocks are out from ATI and such, too, that require no alteration. I love my M38, (I have said it enough time here, by now!), and think it's just great the way t is....though lately I've wondered what it would look like on a nylon stock in Natural Gear camo....:rolleyes:

SpookyPistolero
October 21, 2005, 11:28 AM
I think it would work great assuming you don't precieve a need for a high volume and rate of fire in the SHTF, which is entirely possible and maybe probable. I turned my M38 into a psuedo-scout, just removed the old rear sight and base until I got the flat part on the barrel, then drilled and tapped to mount a really low LER mount. Put on a cheap pistol scope and it's always worked great. However, be sure you're comfy with the durability of your scope, since you'd be without iron sights in the SHTF if it broke. Anyway, i think they are very handy and more wisely kept in their standard, iron sighted configuration.

bad LT
October 21, 2005, 02:03 PM
They worked well enough when the SHTF in Stalingrad, Moscow, Berlin, Chosin, Norway, Poland, etc.

orangeninja
October 21, 2005, 02:33 PM
Darrells Scope mounts have one for the M38....that'd be an impressive Scout Rifle. Having said that...to me...a SHTF rifle should be:

1.) Iron sights on it, because hey...the SHTF and batteries for your red dot or replacement glass may not be available....unless you are using one of these.. www.scoutscopes.com ....and I only recommend them because if the scop breaks you use the base as an open sight.

2.) Semi automatic. At a close distance a thug with a cheap 9mm will beat an old bolt action unless you nail him with the first shot. A good thing to note about thugs....where there's one...there's more. Thus a Semi Auto would work better in an urban enviroment.

3.) The caliber should be big enough to hunt with.

4.) The gun should be "weather resistant" and not break when it gets cold.

5.) It should shoot cheap, very available ammo.

You seem to have met all but the semi auto requirement....but if you are in a rural area, then you probably don't need it. If you are in an urban area...I recommend a Semi Auto.

As for scouting it for a general purpose hunting rifle...you're good to go.

jonnyc
October 21, 2005, 02:51 PM
I did an M44/Scout conversion and really like it. I think I will re-do it using an M38 however, to eliminate the bayonet mounting. Go for it.

Oleg Volk
October 21, 2005, 06:44 PM
M44 is slow to load (no reliable clips), slow to load shot to shot (stiff bolt), but handles well and shoots through cover.

Cpl Punishment
October 21, 2005, 09:49 PM
I just bought an M38 from big 5 for $79.95 and I want to make a Scout/shtf rifle out of it. is this a good idea?

Yes.

IF. . .

1.) You have to get some original Russian stripper clips for it to reliably load quickly. They will have the Ishevsk mark (arrow in triangle) on them.

2.) The scout scope is a good, tough, reliable one. Think about the Leupold 2.5x IER scope. Yes, it's $200. yes, it's worth it. Mount it to a Daryll's mount.

3.) Keep the rear sight leaf and spring, oiled to prevent rust, with the rifle in some way (maybe in cleaning kit, etc). This is in case the scope buys it, you can just put the rear irons back on.

I "scouterized" an M44 (because it has a better bolt throw and much better trigger than my M38), and it's a great rifle.

Cosmoline
October 21, 2005, 10:27 PM
I strong advise against trying to hack and slash a Mosin carbine into a standard American hunting rifle.

It's a waste of time and money, aside from the moral issues of hacking an innocent carbine up. If you want to mount a scope on it, get one of Darrell's excellent scout mounts. The Mosin carbines make very good scout rifles. They're not terribly accurate, but will give you acceptable groups out to 100 meters.

You can also put Mojo sights on it which act like ghost rings.

The problem with M-38's is many of them have seen horrible abuse, been rebored and counterbored. The end result is a Mosin with an unusually large bore size and a crown inside the barrel. If you can't hand pick your M-38, the Polish M-44's are a better bet. They were lightly used and many were never even issued.

Also, a Mosin with well-matched parts should not be stiff or slow. That's a sign that the rifle is a parts gun that was never adjusted at the arsenal. Most of the Polish M-44's are all matching. A good mosin's bolt should feel loose and funky, like it's kinda falling apart. It's a very different feel from a Mauser bolt, but trust me it works. I can fire off rounds from my Finns every bit as fast as any Mauser.

Cpl Punishment
October 22, 2005, 07:29 AM
Also, a Mosin with well-matched parts should not be stiff or slow. That's a sign that the rifle is a parts gun that was never adjusted at the arsenal. Most of the Polish M-44's are all matching. A good mosin's bolt should feel loose and funky, like it's kinda falling apart. It's a very different feel from a Mauser bolt, but trust me it works. I can fire off rounds from my Finns every bit as fast as any Mauser.

I'll second that. My first two Mosins were all matching (got lucky, I didn't even know to look for that, they were my first milsurps) and I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about with Mosins feeling slow and clunky. Then I got a mixmaster. . .

Mannlicher
October 22, 2005, 07:41 AM
I don't think much of the idea. Using a mil surp, obsolete, oddball caliber weapon as your last ditch rifle does not seem a good idea. There are better choices. Anything you do to it would cost more than the rifle.
Course there is a cult following for obsolete Commie guns, and more power to those folks, but its not a course I would take.

smince
October 22, 2005, 09:05 AM
I did an M44 w/B-square mount and BSA 2xpistol scope in an ATI stock. It did just fine. A friend offered to buy it from me to hunt with at a much greater price than I had in it. So he owns it now. I did another M44 with the MOJO sights. I like it, also.

With the availability of ammo and the price of the guns and stocks, it can be a fun and interesting project.

pinetree64
October 22, 2005, 02:26 PM
I have several C&R rifles. The last purchase was a MN-38. It cleaned-up well and is a neat little carbine. It is much handier than any of my Mausers and is was my truck gun. I wouldn't scope it, but like the idea of Mojo sites. I think it is a fine truck gun. That said, the sites on the gun are pretty rough. It lacks the fit and finish of the Mausers and since I want to simplify, 'll probably end up selling it and sticking a Mauser M48A in my truck.

Personally, I think the best bargain on a shtf gun is an SKS. I only have one, but plan on buying more. While it lacks power compaired to 7.62x54 and 8mm, it's 10 round capacity and fast reload make it a better personal protection arm.

tjg

Cosmoline
October 22, 2005, 02:43 PM
I don't think much of the idea. Using a mil surp, obsolete, oddball caliber weapon as your last ditch rifle does not seem a good idea. There are better choices. Anything you do to it would cost more than the rifle.
Course there is a cult following for obsolete Commie guns, and more power to those folks, but its not a course I would take.

Thems fightin' words! :D 7.62x54R ammunition is both inexpensive and widely available, and the Mosin-Nagant platform is one of the toughest and most reliable ever made. They can remain in active service for over a century, and have. They are tougher than any modern production rifle I know of.

orangeninja
October 22, 2005, 03:45 PM
Well...I'm not going to take up a cause...but an M44 or 38 would make a fine brush gun. An SKS would make a fine SHTF rifle AND a hunting rifle. Yes...it only holds ten rounds...but add that to fire discipline and something like a red dot or accurate irons...and you are LETHAL to 100 yards.

dasmi
October 22, 2005, 04:10 PM
I've got an M44, and I love it. The M38 is also a great choice.
Here's my M44. Bought at Big 5, $79.95. Got brass strippers clips on ebay, 5 for 99 cents.
They suck, except when used with some Czech surplus silvertip stuff I found at a shop here in San Diego.
http://my.opera.com/servicesix/homes/albums/5702/m44_case.jpg

Hammerhead Shark
October 22, 2005, 04:21 PM
I've got an M44, and I love it. The M38 is also a great choice.
Here's my M44. Bought at Big 5, $79.95. Got brass strippers clips on ebay, 5 for 99 cents.
They suck, except when used with some Czech surplus silvertip stuff I found at a shop here in San Diego.
http://my.opera.com/servicesix/homes/albums/5702/m44_case.jpg
hey Dasmi, im in San Diego too. where can you go shoot Rifles at, I shoot my pistols a Discount guns.

dasmi
October 22, 2005, 04:31 PM
Project 2000 in El Cajon is good. www.project2000range.com
Also, go to http://shooting.forsandiego.com and join the SDShooters Yahoo group. We get together and go out to Jacumba to shoot every few months.

The Grand Inquisitor
October 22, 2005, 04:36 PM
I don't think much of the idea. Using a mil surp, obsolete, oddball caliber weapon as your last ditch rifle does not seem a good idea. There are better choices.


You obviously don;t know much about the 7.62x54R. The round has been in service for over a hundred years and is still in action today. Modern match loads of 54R are still used in TIGR and SVD marskman rifles in Russia and easily shoot 1 MOA groups, and with a good marksman, even tighter.

Some people still hold a grudge against Eastern Bloc and Eastern European designed weapons, but what they fail to recognize is that some of these weapons are some of the best designed and best functioning weapons in the history of small arms. Cold War social conditioning taught us everything Soviet was bad, but now that the Cold War is over we need to get over that conditioning and accept that these are great weapons.

armoredman
October 22, 2005, 04:38 PM
Obsolete caliber? Sir, the 7.62x54R is the longest serving military cailber in the world, currently still in production for light machine guns worldwide, first entered service in 1891. Surplus ammo is available in huge cheap lots, such as the Polish 440 round tims from J&G for $31.91, plus about $15 shipping, (to my address, at least), or the Czech Silvertip light ball, 780 rounds for $57.08 plus shipping. Hard to beat the cost of the rifle and ammo, and the sticking bolt is a product of the cosmo the Russians used to ppreserve the rifles in those unused train tunnels. Get a shotgun brush on a cleaning rod, chuck it into a cordless drill, take it to the range, and fire one round, drill the chamber while warm. Repeat about 5 times, good thorough chamber cleanings, lots of degreaser and patches, and wham - silky bolt, even with milsurp ammo.
Or just go buy a Savage 308 bolt action, stick a cheap Tasco scope on it, and call it a day.

student
October 22, 2005, 10:12 PM
I setup my M44 with one of darrells scout mounts several years ago, put a 2.5X on it. I removed the bayo for better balance but can reattach if I want. Got a bunch of good steel stripper that work great. Love the steel core 147? grn ammo. Great reliable rifle, very hard hitting. Would be good against cover or vehicles. I do want a longer bent bolt to improve reloading speed.
Have a buttstock ammo pounch and under it I have secured my rear sight parts and a small wrench to remove the scope if it fails. If you get a polymer stock there is often a hollow space in the back for such stuff, I have a Rem 700 in 30.06 with 18 rnds some matches, wax paper and a small pocketknife inside the stock.

Cosmoline
October 22, 2005, 10:44 PM
Student--that's a great setup. I don't understand why people want to bash the entire bayonet mount off when it takes about half a minute to pop the blade off. This resolves the barrel-heavy feel of the rifle.

smince
October 23, 2005, 05:18 AM
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinscoutrifle/index.asp

will take you to a detailed conversion of the Moisin to a Scout.

Matthew748
October 23, 2005, 06:55 AM
I think an M38 or M44 Nagant is an excellent idea. I keep an M44 and a sealed case of ammo in my trunk at all times. As far as speed goes, just practice. The action on a rough and tumble pieced together parts gun is not as a slick as a Mauser action, but it is not as bad as some people seem to think.

Mannlicher
October 23, 2005, 10:36 AM
*chuckle* like I said, there is a cult following. :)

and I did NOT say that the cartridge or rifle was junk, just that its obsolete, and that there are better choices.

smince
October 23, 2005, 03:18 PM
Mannlicher:

Except for the oddball caliber part, your thinking would include the M1 Garand also(mil-surp, obsolete).

Cosmoline
October 23, 2005, 06:24 PM
*chuckle* like I said, there is a cult following. :)

and I did NOT say that the cartridge or rifle was junk, just that its obsolete, and that there are better choices.

I'd say the cartridge design is archaic, but then again so is the .30-30, .303, .45 Colt, .45-70, etc. etc. None of them are obsolete.

Preacherman
October 23, 2005, 09:14 PM
One accessory that I'd very strongly recommend for a Mosin in a Scout configuration is a good flash-hider. Shooting that thing with milsurp ammo at dusk or dawn is an enlightening experience - to put it mildly!

:what: :evil: :D

armoredman
October 23, 2005, 09:58 PM
One accessory that I'd very strongly recommend for a Mosin in a Scout configuration is a good flash-hider. Shooting that thing with milsurp ammo at dusk or dawn is an enlightening experience - to put it mildly!

:what: :evil: :D
Ditto...don't know who I got this pic from, but it DOES look like this.
BTW, no cartridge is obsolete if still in current military service.

Cosmoline
October 23, 2005, 10:00 PM
Put marshmallows out on the bayonet of an M-44 and you'll have instant s'mores.

Hammerhead Shark
October 24, 2005, 09:31 AM
Ditto...don't know who I got this pic from, but it DOES look like this.
BTW, no cartridge is obsolete if still in current military service.


S">t I never seen that before. INLIGHTNING EXPEREANCE. Oh Yea!!!:eek::what: :cool: :D

chaim
October 24, 2005, 09:45 AM
They worked well enough when the SHTF in Stalingrad, Moscow, Berlin, Chosin, Norway, Poland, etc.

Yeah, but the Soviets had the highest casualty totals of any nation in that war:
9 million soldiers killed, 18 million wounded, for 27 million military casualties (not counting POWs)

For comparison, the second highest rates were for the German military which was:

3.5 million killed, 4.6 million wounded, for 8.1 million total military casualties (not counting POWs)

Obviously that isn't all small arms (and tactics have a lot to do with it), but of course no one (or few anyway) argue that, as good a basic rifle as it is, the Nagant was the best battle rifle of WWII or even the best bolt battle rifle of WWII. I'm not sure the fact that it was used by one of the victors says quite enough about the gun's utility for a "shtf" situation.

Ash
October 24, 2005, 10:18 AM
The fact that the Mosin is still in use today in Finland as a Sniper's rifle says enough, though, and those are with the old Imperial recievers and magazines! The vast majority of casualties in WWII came from artillery and bombs, not small arms. Yet, Soviets armed with Mosins did very well. The Finns did as well (suffering very low casualty rates). Soldiers armed with Mosins were just as well armed as those armed with Mausers or Arisakas (5 rounds, generally equal accuracy). Fundamentally, there isn't a thing wrong with the Mosin. The safety requires getting used to, but it is the most positive safety available (and is very quite to operate), the magazine feeds well, no jamming from the rimmed cartridge (which means being a rimmed cartridge is of no consequence), the trigger isn't so hot unless it was a Finnish trigger, but it works reliably and doesn't break, and the sights are no worse than on a Mauser, better than used by the Carcano.

As a rural rifle, the Mosins are great. I use a 91/59 interchangeably with my Marlin 336 or Mossberg 479 lever guns. It has more power but is slower to fire, is somewhat heavier but still compact and easy to carry. Personally, I would say get the M38 and that's that. Skip the mount (though the scout mounts are pretty good) and use it as is. For 100 yard shots or less, the open sights work just find, and is certainly capable out to 200 with decent accuracy (of course, not wonderful accuracy however).

Ash

armoredman
October 24, 2005, 10:29 AM
I must say a lot of it comes down to price, and what you can afford. If you're like me, and a pizza once every two weeks is fine dining, then a Mosin M38 represents a major expense, but one that you can afford. If you can afford more, and to lose more if your truck is stolen, then move to a Yugo SKS, a Savage 308 bolt gun with cheap scope, or if your finances are legendary, get thee a Steyr AUG and crate the puppy up in the back of the Hummer. Two basic requirements - what you want, and what you can afford. If I could retire my Mosin for an FAL, I would. Wouldn't ever sell it, but retire, yes.
Back to practical - if you do get a Mosin carbine, remember to pack a small bottle of Windex with ammonia, to help kill the corrosive salts from surplus ammo. Just run a patch or three of that down the bore, and on the bolt, then clean normally.
Also, a recoil pad is advisable - I got the slip on cheapie from WalMart. Still have one left from when I had to sell my 91/30s...

Hammerhead Shark
October 24, 2005, 11:02 AM
I must say a lot of it comes down to price, and what you can afford. If you're like me, and a pizza once every two weeks is fine dining, then a Mosin M38 represents a major expense, but one that you can afford. If you can afford more, and to lose more if your truck is stolen, then move to a Yugo SKS, a Savage 308 bolt gun with cheap scope, or if your finances are legendary, get thee a Steyr AUG and crate the puppy up in the back of the Hummer. Two basic requirements - what you want, and what you can afford. If I could retire my Mosin for an FAL, I would. Wouldn't ever sell it, but retire, yes.
Back to practical - if you do get a Mosin carbine, remember to pack a small bottle of Windex with ammonia, to help kill the corrosive salts from surplus ammo. Just run a patch or three of that down the bore, and on the bolt, then clean normally.
Also, a recoil pad is advisable - I got the slip on cheapie from WalMart. Still have one left from when I had to sell my 91/30s...

Thanks armoredman, I will do that. i was looking for one of those slip-on recoil pads the other day, and couldn't find one at wallyworld here. would you be interested in selling your exter one?

karlsgunbunker
October 25, 2005, 03:48 AM
Yes!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/karlsgunbunker/M38Scout-02.jpg

Ash
October 25, 2005, 08:55 AM
You know, SHTF scenarios can be fun, but having gone through one, I found the firearm was the least of my concerns. I kept my Witness in .45 handy, but didn't have the need to go further and let's face it, Mad Max ain't coming around any time soon. In truth, SHTF is just an excuse to get another firearm (responsibility of every person to defend the nation was my justification for buying an M1a) and then seeing what can be done with it. An SKS makes undeniably a decent SHTF rifle because its cheap and spending too much on preparing for the asteroid that sends us into primitive future wasteland, or on mutant evil blue helmeted UN invasions is pretty silly.

If you were really preparing for the end and having to live off the land for the next 30 years, a good bolt action centerfire rifle (and a back up in same caliber) with a good scope and iron sights with a whole lot of sealed ammo, along with a very good side arm with a bunch of sealed ammo, a decent pump shotgun (or even single shot) and a .22 or .410, along with several very good knives, rugged clothing, a decent shelter (tent) for the short term until you can build something better, bedding, a complete set of tools, both mechanics and carpentry (pioneer), good gloves, and two months minimum supply of food and water purification (either a Sweetwater pump or tablets) would be a far better investment than a tricked out SKS, M14, FAL, or the like.

However, it is fun to trick out a rifle and using SHTF as an excuse is as good as any. Mosins would make superb SHTF weapons, unaltered, because they are utterly rugged and DO survive in horrible conditions for years and years, just as Enfields or Mausers (which you will find in Afghanistan or many African republics).

It is also fun to debate which makes the better, just as it was once fun to debate how many spirits could dance on the head of a pin. Yet in the final analysis, some folks can get real wound up over what is just as likely as finding those dancing spirits. Would the Mosin make a good SHTF? As good and capable as any.

Ash

kentucky_smith
October 25, 2005, 10:42 AM
Go buy one and have fun tinkering with it. I just decided to buy a cheap highpowered rifle to keep in truck, strap to four wheeler instead of scratching up my Featherweight Classic.

Instead of bubbafying an SKS, I went with tried and true K98K Mauser that had already been bubbafied with a fugly ATI stock, but I can mount a regular scope on it ( took the 3x9x40 off my 10/.22:evil: ).

Ugly? Yes. Reliable? Yes. As cheap to find ammo for as the SKS? No. As cheap as the SKS? No. Fun to shoot things? Yes.


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/22/49/59/i224959hz02.jpg

armoredman
October 25, 2005, 10:56 AM
5000 rounds of 7.62x54R? Ok, buying 7 cases from J&G Sales, (which I cannot afford yet), without shipping (I can drive up there to avoid THAT charge), is $392.56. That equals 5460 rounds of Czech Silvertip 148gr LPS bullet light ball ammo, sealed in tins.
By way of comparison, using the same company, (easy referance), 5000 rounds of Wolf .223 runs $599.50, and this is half the price of the .223 surplus they offer. .308? Oddly enough, the exact same, $599.50, but this is for the infamous Indian 308, though they say they sorted it to rid of the defective ones.
Even the Wolf 7.62x39mm is $595.95 for 1000, if they had any.

So, the ammo cost is kinda moot. Also, I buy small lots, because I can't afford big ones, but I get way more bang for my buck, when paying $1.50 for 20 rounds....

Marko Kloos
October 25, 2005, 10:57 AM
If you were really preparing for the end and having to live off the land for the next 30 years, a good bolt action centerfire rifle (and a back up in same caliber) with a good scope and iron sights with a whole lot of sealed ammo, along with a very good side arm with a bunch of sealed ammo, a decent pump shotgun (or even single shot) and a .22 or .410, along with several very good knives, rugged clothing, a decent shelter (tent) for the short term until you can build something better, bedding, a complete set of tools, both mechanics and carpentry (pioneer), good gloves, and two months minimum supply of food and water purification (either a Sweetwater pump or tablets) would be a far better investment than a tricked out SKS, M14, FAL, or the like.

I don't dispute the utility of the items you listed, but in situations where the local Piggly Wiggly runs out of food, humans have a nasty tendency to take what they need from anyone, by any means necessary. Your useful stuff would be highly desirable, so it's not altogether unreasonable to back up your property rights with a rifle designed to make lots of holes in lots of miscreants in a short amount of time.

Ash
October 25, 2005, 11:32 AM
Which is why I have a Remington 870:D

If there are so many that I have to really engage in an extended firefight, I'm screwed anyway. Armed with a tripod mounted 1917 Browning with a 200 round belt, I'd still get overwhelmed. All it would take would be someone coming in from behind. Alone, there is very little I could do. In the case of the bad guys coming that fast (and as such, that close), two CZ-75's with extra mags each would be more effective than an FAL/AK/SKS, you name it. If I'm in a Blackhawk Down scenario, better get in the Jeep with said provisions and drive away.

But in Katrina country, that wasn't a problem for us. Even the New Orleans rumors were just that, rumors. The mountains of corpses at the Superdome ended up being 4, and my partner's father, a surgeon at Tulane who only evacuated when there were no more patients left, walked 7 miles from downtown towards the lake and while he came in contact with many people, had to walk the I-10 divider because the road was under water, and ended up swimming a bayou (oh, and he's 78 years old (and also performed the very first lung transplant in the history of the world)). For him, SHTF and he didn't even need a firearm. For me, SHTF and I was just fine with my Witness .45 and even then I never felt the need to draw it. And if we end up in a situation where Mad Max really is driving through town, there will be ample opportunities to get that fully automatic AK.

Ash

Ash
October 25, 2005, 11:38 AM
During the LA Riots, those Korean shop owners, who were without doubt in SHTF, did okay with pump action shotguns. That's SHTF, and that was all they needed. In SHTF, mobs are cowards and will not engage armed opponents. If you are dealing with gang turf wars, then an SKS might be perfect as spray and pray can't compete with aimed fire (and even then, a mosin would probably do okay). But that is still not the same as looters who are targets of opportunity types who don't want to fight. If gangs move into the neighborhood, then you need to evacuate anyway because dying in a brave last stand (or being burned out) is of no value.

Ash

Cpl Punishment
October 25, 2005, 05:53 PM
During the LA Riots, those Korean shop owners, who were without doubt in SHTF, did okay with pump action shotguns.

IIRC they had AR-15s. But what they had is moot, the mere fact that they HAD weapons and looked ready to use them made them very uninviting victims.

Even in NO, when a man confronted people talking about looting his genny, two warning shots from his .357 sent them scurrying. According to most internet "gun people" those guys should have executed a human wave attack, because he only had a revolver and 6 (now 4) shots without reloading. Accord to the 'net commandos he shouldn't have had a chance without at LEAST a Glock 17 and 6 33-round magazines.

(All of the above means I agree with you BTW).

I think another thing going for Mosins (any of them) is the cost of the rifle and ammo is so low, you might actually be able to afford the things you'll REALLY need (ways to MAKE fresh water, food, etc). Rather than having a real nice gun and no food, dehydrating to death. The only way to go cheaper than a Mosin is to get a USED rifle in .22 LR or .22 Magnum. No centerfire is cheaper to own or feed, and few are as tough.

I forgot who mentioned it, but Mosins are excellent SHTF rifles as they are. The best reason for a scout mount is so that it can be easily sighted in for the various weights of bullets available. Of course one can also replace the rear sight with a Mojo peep sight and sight in easily that way (for cheaper than a scope and mount).

Cosmoline
October 25, 2005, 06:22 PM
I really fell in love with M-N's when I was living off grid north of here. They were inexpensive, tough as nails and held up extremely well in all weather conditions. I like having one as a SHTF rifle and all-around truck gun. Given the extremely slow recovery from Katrina in one of the nation's most important ports, I'd say after the next nine pointer we'd better be ready to fend for ourselves for at least a month. When things get bad enough going down and shooting some moose in the park is a real option. Ordinarily illegal, but not if it's a matter of life and death. In the middle of January it might be.

dasmi
October 30, 2005, 01:31 AM
Course there is a cult following for obsolete Commie guns, and more power to those folks, but its not a course I would take.
Enjoy your Tactical AR, then.

Wheeler
October 30, 2005, 10:36 PM
I have a Mosin M44 and a Finn M39. The Finn is a parts gun although it does have a B barrel on it. Very accurate for a milsurp with surplus ammo. The M44 is very smooth to operate, not as smooth as an Enfield but, nice enough considering the gun and it's lineage.

Take a look at http://www.mosinnagant.net

You can find all sorts of good info for mosins of all shapes and sizes, plus good info on the proper care and feeding of them as well.

According to Jeff Cooper, the idea behind a scout rifle is to purposly limit the capacity of the primary weapon, i.e. a bolt-action rifle, in order to keep the scouts from trying to engage enemy troop formations. The thinking was and is that if they had a high capacity semi auto or automatic they would be tempted to engage. In other words, hide and observe, not shot and scoot. :)

If you were in a position to stockpile or transport large or relatively large amounts of ammo, I'd say go for a Mosin. If you are going to be in tight quarters, that's a different story. I would not want to clear a house with one. Yeah, the Ruskies used them to great effect in WW2, they cleared houses with them, they killed lots of Germans with them, but there are too many other alternatives available if your situation presents that possibility or something similar. I'd go in with a handgun before I tried to use a bolt gun.

The evolution of tactics has changed a lot over the past 65 years. The idea of using a M-4 type long gun is the current doctrine of choice. Once again, yes they did it in the old days, the also taught shooting a handgun with one hand and evaluating your target before shooting it again.

If I had one gun to take on a limited budget, I'd take a M44 or M38 for a long gun. If I had to bail, I would take both of mine, I'd also take my AR. Then again, I'm not planning on having to travel via the shoe leather express to get out. I fully intend to use my truck and trailer.

Best regards,

Wheeler



All things being equal, I would NOT want even a novice shoter taking pot shots at me with a 7.62x54R in ANY format. That is a mean round to be on the receiving end of.

smince
October 31, 2005, 09:11 PM
According to Jeff Cooper, the idea behind a scout rifle is to purposly limit the capacity of the primary weapon, i.e. a bolt-action rifle, in order to keep the scouts from trying to engage enemy troop formations. The thinking was and is that if they had a high capacity semi auto or automatic they would be tempted to engage. In other words, hide and observe, not shot and scoot. :)


The main reason for the bolt action is that no other repeating action will allow the Scout concept to make the length and weight parameters.

orangeninja
October 31, 2005, 09:44 PM
Not only that...but hopefully the military would instill enough discipline in their "scouts" to know exactly what their primary function is. Remember...a guy hidden in a bush with a radio can be a lot more deadly than super sniper with a .50 and a lot of ammo.

Cpl Punishment
November 1, 2005, 06:27 PM
oops

Davejustdave
July 4, 2008, 04:33 PM
I don't think much of the idea. Using a mil surp, obsolete, oddball caliber weapon as your last ditch rifle does not seem a good idea. There are better choices. Anything you do to it would cost more than the rifle.
Course there is a cult following for obsolete Commie guns, and more power to those folks, but its not a course I would take.

No offense, but aren't Mannlicher's considered by many to be obsolete:confused:. I'm just a'sayin...

Bartkowski
July 4, 2008, 04:35 PM
Your a new member, but this thread is about 3 years old.

Tom609
July 4, 2008, 09:47 PM
Yeah, but it was interesting seeing what surplus cost just a few years ago. I think it's convinced me to order one more case of x54r from AimSurplus, and another case of 30-06 from CMP!

MalthusianMenace
November 13, 2008, 11:49 PM
Well I like my M91/30 , I know with some practice I've timed myself reloading it in 4 seconds with stripper clips, you don't need to get original russian, at least not if you go look on http://www.e-gunparts.com , and search for stripper clips there, they sell the steel ones, 88 cents each or something if you buy at least 20, I think it's a high quality rifle for the cost...., I mean the Mosin Nagant design in general...., and yeah you can just mount a LER scope in place of the rear sight....

of course if your going for a scout rifle you understand accessories are helpful..., scope, mount, bipod to steady the rifle, stripper clips, webgear like bandoliers or something for the stripper clips..., which you could just use a standard rifle bandolier you can get through sportsmans guide, or cabelas, oh and definantly would want to find a good hardcase for the rifle..., as well as laser boresighter if you don't want to spend all day sighting it in and then have to sight it in all over again when you bump it into something too hard...

http://www.casesandmore.com/Flambeau-6470SC-FLB1000.html#ProdDetails - cheapest rifle case I've found

smince
November 14, 2008, 05:08 AM
as well as laser boresighter if you don't want to spend all day sighting it in and then have to sight it in all over againwhen you bump it into something too hard...Sign you have a crappy scope or crappy scope mount...

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