Lubing Rounds


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280PLUS
October 24, 2005, 08:30 AM
I recenty tried wiping off all my .45 rounds with one of those silicone impregnated rags. The gun fired flawlessly through 180 rounds. Not that it didn't usually before but this time seemed "different". I think I might want to continue this practice, is there any reason I shouldn't? Are there any other recommendations? It seems to an old mechanic like me that lubed would be better than dry. Something about dry metal that has to slide rubs me the wrong way.:p

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stevelyn
October 24, 2005, 08:59 AM
Noooooooooooooooooo.:what: You don't want to lube your ammo in any way.:eek:
It feels different because it is and could be hazardous.
When a cartridge fires, the case expands and grips the chamber walls. This creates a gasket sealing the gases in the chamber. It also has the effect of minimizing back thrust on the bolt, slide, breechface etc. Of course when the pressures drop, the case being somewhat elastic, releases its grip on the chamber walls and the residual recoil causes the gun to cycle as it was designed to. Lubing your ammo could cause the process to start to early and start cycling prior to pressures dropping to safe levels. The result could mean a ruptured case. The light film present in the chamber prior to shooting probably isn't going to hurt anything since after the first couple shots it'll be cooked off. However, most folks still recommend running a dry patch through the barrel and chamber prior to shooting.
Keep the chamber and ammo clean. Even tumble your loaded ammo to clean it if you must, but keep both dry when shooting.

280PLUS
October 24, 2005, 09:05 AM
In a word ":cuss:" :D I thought I was on to something. Just for clarity, these are low power LSWC. And it's the first time I ever tried it. I swear. :)

HSMITH
October 24, 2005, 09:17 AM
Lots of IPSC shooters do this, and the technique is advocated by a lot of the grand masters who have shot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds this way. They are also doing it with very high pressure ammunition.

I have not tried it, I might try it in a handgun but not in a bolt rifle.

Vern Humphrey
October 24, 2005, 11:48 AM
Measure your cases just ahead of the extraction groove -- if you have any significant bulging there, it could indicate an excess headspace condition caused by the lubing. This can happen because the case moves more freely under pressure.

Ol` Joe
October 24, 2005, 12:00 PM
Measure your cases just ahead of the extraction groove -- if you have any significant bulging there, it could indicate an excess headspace condition caused by the lubing. This can happen because the case moves more freely under pressure.

Vern,
How does lubeing increase headspace? The headspace is the distance a case can move from breech to a datum, in the 45acp the case lip. I`ve heard the extractor holds the case to the breech acting to insure the case doesn`t move foreward but I`m not too sure about it being true.
The problem with lubeing ammo lies with the increase in thrust on the bolt lugs/breech face as implied in the other posts. Damage to the gun is possible but not because the ammo is raising pressure or headspacing any different.

Vern Humphrey
October 24, 2005, 12:14 PM
Vern,
How does lubeing increase headspace? The headspace is the distance a case can move from breech to a datum, in the 45acp the case lip. I`ve heard the extractor holds the case to the breech acting to insure the case doesn`t move foreward but I`m not too sure about it being true.
The problem with lubeing ammo lies with the increase in thrust on the bolt lugs/breech face as implied in the other posts. Damage to the gun is possible but not because the ammo is raising pressure or headspacing any different.

You've just pointed it out -- the increased thrust on the bolt/breech face has the effect of increasing headspace. In some designs, it can result in premature unlocking -- just a tiny fraction premature but enough to result in bulges in the base of the brass.

Aquaholic
October 24, 2005, 12:35 PM
Mods: Feel free to delete this post if you find it inappropriate... It just seemed to fit in here.... ;)

30293

W Turner
October 24, 2005, 03:23 PM
^^^^^^^^bwahahahahahahahahahahaha^^^^^^^^^^

280PLUS
October 24, 2005, 03:54 PM
Funny, just not very helpful...

:D

Gewehr98
October 24, 2005, 03:57 PM
And push the envelope with respect to safety, it's the IPSC clan. It's no surprise that IPSC players, looking for an edge, would resort to lubing their ammo. Nor would I use them as a barometer for what is safe and sane in the gun shooting world.

I played that game for a while. I saw .38 Super brass that was unusable after the first loading, they were pushing it so hot to make Major power factor.

The compensated race guns needed a lot of gas pressure and volume to work through the smokestack, so folks were running 155gr .45 ACP semiwadcutters on top of massive loads of WW231, WST, WAP, and Clays. Those loads had departed from the tops of published load data and left it standing in the dust.

We have people here (not naming anybody, but I know, and you know who you are) who work .357 Magnum velocities out of .380 ACP hot loads. That doesn't mean it's safe, it just means he's willing to risk life, limb, and eyebulbs in pursuit of whatever goal he's pursuing.

Skip the ammo-lubing. The Japanese tried it with their 6.5mm Hotchkiss machine guns. Even then, it was nothing but trouble in the long run.

280PLUS
October 24, 2005, 04:13 PM
It's no surprise that IPSC players, looking for an edge, would resort to lubing their ammo. Are they doing this in an attempt to increase muzzle velocity or functionality/reliability? My goal was reliability.

I don't understand why they'd want super powerful loads either. Why?

Vern Humphrey
October 24, 2005, 04:33 PM
Are they doing this in an attempt to increase muzzle velocity or functionality/reliability? My goal was reliability.

I don't understand why they'd want super powerful loads either. Why?

IPSC has a power factor -- which is essentially momentum, not kenetic energy -- which favors heavy bullets. The .45 ACP is heavily favored. Less powerful rounds pay a penalty -- hits score less from ordinary 9mms.

However, in any shooting game -- and most especially one where time is a factor -- low recoil is an advantage. So IPSC shooters like to take cartridges like the 9mm or .38 Super and hot load them to make "major" power factor.

tc300mag1
October 24, 2005, 06:13 PM
There have been a few gun writers and one article in handloader about doing this with 454 casull cases that Stick in Super Redhawks The case thurst thing was brought up but dismissed in the article..


I dont do it never had a case stick in my 454 oh yeah this was also talking about Factory cases sticking not just reloads

slopemeno
October 24, 2005, 06:22 PM
....but most importantly (and back on topic) the time penalty a jam offers will take you from the top of the field to the middle, just like that.

Ive done the wipe-the-loaded-round with a silicone rag thing, but you need to find the real reason youre having feeding issues. I suggest disassembling your gun the day before a match and dropping, one-by-one, your loaded rounds in the dismounted barrel. If that round doesnt drop cleanly into the chamber, seperate it and make sure it doesnt get mixed into your match ammo. And lube the gun right before the match-a drop to the feedramp, disconnector, hood, and with oily fingers wipe around the barrel behind the muzzel. And seriously, guys, dont go to a match with a clean gun. Test fire the night before.

The main problem I saw when diagnosing functioning issues with someones match gun/ammo was INSUFFICENT TAPER CRIMP. My Dad and I experimented up one side and down the other and honkin' taper crimp almost assured the ammo would feed. Our 168 gn H&G 68's at 185 pf were pleasant to shoot and functioned great.

And yeah, I remember those 155 grain .45 rounds. Pity the poor RO who stood over a proned out shooter. The sound just reverberated up your nose or something. Supers were no fun either. Makes me almost want to find a league again. Anybody want to take a 6.5" Ernie Hill Fender in as trade on a 5"er? Remember Mag-Pak magazines? Remember Advantage Grips? Spraying sight black all over the door handles of your buddies car and wiping the excess off? Idaho reloaders? Florida 8's?...

Johnny_Yuma
October 24, 2005, 06:28 PM
I recenty tried wiping off all my .45 rounds with one of those silicone impregnated rags. The gun fired flawlessly through 180 rounds. Not that it didn't usually before but this time seemed "different". I think I might want to continue this practice, is there any reason I shouldn't? Are there any other recommendations? It seems to an old mechanic like me that lubed would be better than dry. Something about dry metal that has to slide rubs me the wrong way.:p

I really gotta know.

BTW, my old service Sig P228 fired flawlessly through over 15,000 rounds, without oily cartridges:evil:. I sure don't want it to do anything different!

Gewehr98
October 24, 2005, 06:42 PM
nd yeah, I remember those 155 grain .45 rounds. Pity the poor RO who stood over a proned out shooter. The sound just reverberated up your nose or something.

The first time I saw those compensated .45's and .38's in action, I immediately thought of the WWII gun camera footage of P-47's strafing railroad marshalling yards, and hitting the locomotives, causing their boilers to burst and dump all their steam pressure through their smokestacks. The jet of gas coming up from the comped raceguns looked just like that! :what:

HSMITH
October 24, 2005, 08:02 PM
280, the reason most of the top shooters advocate silicone on the ammo is to smooth things out in the magazine, magazines feed better when friction inside is reduced. The gun runs just fine either way, and there isn't a detrimental effect from the lube that I can find mentioned.

VARifleman
October 24, 2005, 08:41 PM
When shooting bullseye with my friend's Model 41, I was instructed by him to put a drop of oil on the top round of every mag to keep it from stovepiping after I had 5 or so in the course of a 90 shot match. It fixed it up rather well. My advice is to see what your gun likes.

280PLUS
October 24, 2005, 10:12 PM
Ah, what there seemed different? I don't know really, just seemed smoother I guess. I found with my ruger MkII if I cleaned and lightly lubed the mags with miltec (and then dry patched them) I eliminated the occasional stovepipes I was getting with that one. My .45 is a RRA custom wadcutter with maybe 1200 rounds through it now with very few ( maybe 3?) feed failures so far. I HAVE been drop testing the rounds as described by slopmeno but recently I got the crazy idea in my head that a light lube on the rounds as well would be cheap insurance against any future feed problems. As a matter of fact i was drop testing them and then wiping them down before returning them to the boxes. As noted, an alibi (as we call them) under NRA rules means I must fire a full rack of 5 rounds in addition to whatever I was able to get off. And then they take away the number of rounds that DID go off before the misfire, starting with the best shots first. So yes, an alibi can take you right out of the running on any given day.

I'm thinking of a compromise where I just lube the heads so they make it up the ramp and leave the cases dry .

More thoughts on this?

And thanks for all the info so far! :D

Standing Wolf
October 24, 2005, 10:22 PM
When shooting bullseye with my friend's Model 41, I was instructed by him to put a drop of oil on the top round of every mag to keep it from stovepiping after I had 5 or so in the course of a 90 shot match. It fixed it up rather well.

I know some bullseye shooters who do this. I find it easier to use ammunition that works reliably, as well as keep the chamber squeaky clean. I doubt there's anything wrong with lubricating ammunition, but have to believe it leads to gunky, extra-dirty chambers.

280PLUS
October 25, 2005, 08:45 AM
The gun performed flawlessly, the shooter,,, not so flawless. :barf: :p

Canuck-IL
October 25, 2005, 09:29 AM
When shooting bullseye with my friend's Model 41, I was instructed by him to put a drop of oil on the top round of every mag to keep it from stovepiping after I had 5
The chamber and extractor hooks need to be cleaned - oiling the top round is a stop gap measure at best and will just encourage more debris accumulation.

I'm thinking of a compromise where I just lube the heads so they make it up the ramp and leave the cases dry .
I tumble my BE loads to get any residual lube off...the heads end up quite "polished" to the touch. Lead is a lot slicker on the ramp than the plated Rainier's I use for IPSC...as the gun gets dirty, the nose on those occ. will plow into the ramp and hang-up.
/B

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