They are called “joy bullets” in Arabic


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jsalcedo
October 24, 2005, 10:03 AM
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20051021.aspx

Gun Safety for Iraqis
October 21, 2005: One interesting thing Americans discovered, while training Iraqi troops, is that most Iraqi men tend to be very familiar with firearms, especially the Russian AK-series. The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns. In some regions, these weapons are so common that even boys of 12 or so may have one. One would think that this would make training them relatively easy, but in fact it doesn’t. While Iraqi recruits tend to know a lot about firearms, even to the extent that they can maintain them reasonably well, they don’t know a thing about weapons safety. Consider the Arab custom of firing their weapons into the air on happy occasions (they are called “joy bullets” in Arabic), often with deadly consequences. When someone is killed or injured by the bullets that, inevitably come back to earth, the injury is shrugged off, or blamed on a handy enemy (Palestinians blame Israelis, some Iraqis blame any armed foreigners in the vicinity, or nearby Iraqis they don't get along with).

Thus, American trainers quickly learned that safety training is very important for Iraqi recruits. Indeed, it was found that gun safety training needed far more emphasis for Iraqi troops than for Americans, who live in a culture of safety. Resistance to safety training by Iraqi recruits is pretty high, at least initially. But once they understand the purpose, they become surprisingly good students, perhaps because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet that was simply obeying the law of gravity. The presence of Egyptian or Jordanian trainers is particularly helpful in accelerating the process of getting Iraqi recruits to accept firearms safety; as brother Arabs and Moslems. In this case there’s less resistance to an “infidel” notion of being careful while using assault rifles.

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Sleeping Dog
October 24, 2005, 10:27 AM
There's always a bunch of "joy bullets" flying in the air around my neighborhood on new years eve.

My translation is not so much "joy" as it is "moronic".

I move away from the windows near midnight.

Regards.

griz
October 24, 2005, 01:09 PM
I wonder if the joy bullet defense could replace the Twinkie defenese in this country? "Your honor, I didn't mean to kill him, I was just so happy I emptied the mag in his general direction".

belton-deer-hunter
October 24, 2005, 01:23 PM
it worked in the middel ages fire abunch of arrows into the air and when they come down someone will get hit right?

dasmi
October 24, 2005, 01:32 PM
The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.

Cursed? Those lucky bastards, curse me please!

HankB
October 24, 2005, 02:10 PM
. . . weapons are so common that even boys of 12 or so may have one."Hey, Dad, Abdul has one, why can't I?" . . . they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet . . .Serious topic, but somehow this phrase struck me as funny . . .

Father Knows Best
October 24, 2005, 02:37 PM
[url]Consider the Arab custom of firing their weapons into the air on happy occasions (they are called “joy bullets” in Arabic), often with deadly consequences.

It's not just an Arab custom. I used to live in Detroit. If you were smart, you didn't go outdoors on New Years or Devil's Night. I've never been in a firefight, but after a New Year's Eve in Detroit I think I know what one sounds like.

wingnutx
October 24, 2005, 02:39 PM
You should try teaching those guys driving safety. I saw more one car accidents on our small closed FOB than I do in a major American city.

Lupinus
October 24, 2005, 02:41 PM
they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet
theres a nice comparision. Grandpa or the goat? Never can tell.....

Hey does it really make a difference?

Lupinus
October 24, 2005, 02:42 PM
You should try teaching those guys driving safety. I saw more one car accidents on our small closed FOB than I do in a major American city.
You've never gone down I-4 in Florida have you? :eek:

Crosshair
October 24, 2005, 02:43 PM
I heard that the terrorists in Iraq alway's had the rear sights on their AKs set to 1000 yards. Aparently they think it effects the power of the bullet.:scrutiny:

Darth Ruger
October 24, 2005, 03:00 PM
...they are called “joy bullets” in Arabic...What are they called when they're aimed at Americans?


. . . they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet . . .Serious topic, but somehow this phrase struck me as funny . . .I was hoping I wasn't the only one. :D


It's not just an Arab custom. I used to live in Detroit.LOL! That was even funnier! :D :D

LaEscopeta
October 24, 2005, 03:00 PM
I didn’t cut-and paste the articles over here, to avoid slow downloads, but these two links might be relevant:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157364

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27764

jsalcedo
October 24, 2005, 03:43 PM
Ahh so I get it! That really wasn't AAA fire during operation desert shield
it was just a bunch of "joy bullets" welcoming the Coalition to Iraq. :D

Darth Ruger
October 24, 2005, 05:18 PM
Ahh so I get it! That really wasn't AAA fire during operation desert shield
it was just a bunch of "joy bullets" welcoming the Coalition to Iraq. :DYeah, the one that came down next to my foxhole
had "happy, happy, joy, joy" written all over it. :eek: :D

KriegHund
October 24, 2005, 05:29 PM
Joy bullets...rofl

The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.

A curse, eh?

Fluffster
October 24, 2005, 08:23 PM
I heard that the terrorists in Iraq alway's had the rear sights on their AKs set to 1000 yards. Aparently they think it effects the power of the bullet.:scrutiny:
Now I'm fairly ignorant about AKs, are they really graded out to 1000 yards?

jsalcedo
October 24, 2005, 08:56 PM
I heard that the terrorists in Iraq alway's had the rear sights on their AKs set to 1000 yards. Aparently they think it effects the power of the bullet.

Well does it? :neener:

4v50 Gary
October 24, 2005, 09:46 PM
Well, back in the 18-19th Century, a military unit would celeberate a joyful event by discharging their guns into the air. However, it was organized and fired by files (sequentially as opposed to simultaneously) on the order of the officer. The term, "Feu de joi" (o.k., correct my French if I'm wrong) describes the practice and both the French & the English did it (with blanks).

Crosshair
October 24, 2005, 10:17 PM
Yes, though firing at extended ranges like that is often refered to as "Harassing fire".

Acording to www.army-technology.com
Harassing fire is weapons fire designed to lower morale of the troops under fire through denial of sleep, noise, and constant danger. Usually sustained or sporadic over a long period of time.

The basic idea being that if you lob enough bullets so they land in the general area of the enemy you will eventualy hit someone. Very effective if both sides are evenly matched as the constant fire will make it difficult for an attacker out in the open since he is taking casualties before the attack begins and stresses out the troops.(The Turks used this to great effect during "The Plevna delay".) Used in the day's before airpower became a major factor and still usefull for conflicts that do not have significant air power available. (Nowadays you just drop a JDAM on them.:D )

LaEscopeta
October 25, 2005, 08:41 AM
General Hatcher said that the spitzer rifle bullet falls base first, and the 06 bullets merely dented 1" thick pine boards.If the rds are fired vertically, it's not the same thing at all. Plunging fire still has forward movement, and strikes with the bullet oriented nose forward. Vertical fire strikes with the bullet butt first, having only 150 0r so fps of velocity.

I agree with the above. But I don’t agree it is impossible for a bullet shot straight to be lethal when it comes back down. Most bullets shot in the air will of course come down without hitting anyone, and most that hit people will not kill them (hell, something like 2/3 of handgun bullets shot straight at people do not kill them.) But if enough bullets are shot in the air for long enough, someone is going to be hit in just the wrong spot, resulting in death. About 10% of less-lethal rounds, going about the same speed a falling bullet, hit in the wrong spot and end up causing death.

Here is a simplified review of the issue:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

Dear Cecil:
Every so often you see it on the news: streets full of Middle Eastern men indiscriminately firing guns straight up into the air. If I learned anything from physics class, it's that what goes up must come down. I'm certain the returning projectiles don't float harmlessly to earth and wonder how often they plunge into bystanders. --Kathy Johnson, Madison, Wisconsin
Cecil replies:
Those Middle Eastern men. You want to shake them and say, guys! Is this the safe and sensible way to celebrate? Can't we just say "hooray!" and "whoa, baby"?
But you raise a good point. How dangerous is this really? The question is controversial. Let me lay it out point by point.
Datum 1. At first I thought being struck by a bullet falling straight down would be no worse than getting hit over the head with a two-by-four--not the average guy's idea of fun, but not fatal either. What goes up must come down, but it needn't do so at the same speed. You run up against what's known as "terminal velocity." A bullet fired straight up will slow down, stop, then fall to earth again, accelerating until it reaches a point where its weight equals the resistance of the air. That's its terminal velocity.
For further insight, we turn to Hatcher's Notebook (1962) by Major General Julian S. Hatcher, a U.S. Army ordnance expert. Hatcher described military tests with, among other things, a .30 caliber bullet weighing .021 pounds. Using a special rig, the testers shot the bullet straight into the air. It came down bottom (not point) first at what was later computed to be about 300 feet per second. "With the [.021 pound] bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds," Hatcher wrote. "Previously, the army had decided that on the average an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound. Thus, service bullets returning from extreme heights cannot be considered lethal by this standard."
If 30 foot pounds doesn't mean much to you, the bullet made a mark about one-sixteenth of an inch deep in a soft pine board. About what you'd get giving it a good whack with a hammer. Note that we're talking about bullets shot straight up here. If the bullet is fired more or less horizontally, it may not lose much speed before returning to earth and could easily kill someone.
Datum 2. Then someone sent me an article from the Los Angeles Times about the problem of falling bullets in L.A. around New Year's and the Fourth of July. According to the article, doctors at King/Drew Medical Center, a major L.A. trauma center, published a report in a medical journal (Journal of Trauma, December 1994) saying that between 1985 and 1992 they treated 118 people for falling bullet injuries around New Year's Eve or the Fourth of July. Thirty-eight of the victims died.
"There is some skepticism about the numbers reported by the King/Drew team," the article continued. "The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and the Los Angeles Police Department--which serve a vastly larger area-- reported only about half a dozen deaths in the same period. . . . Other hospitals contacted by The Times . . . reported few cases."
King/Drew handles a lot more gunshot cases than other L.A. hospitals. But the King/Drew doctors also used fairly liberal criteria to identify falling-bullet victims (no gunshot heard or weapon seen, wound consistent with bullet falling from above, etc.). Given how confused trauma victims and witnesses often are about what happened, the numbers reported are probably high.
Datum 3. Still, the question isn't how many people get injured or killed by falling bullets, it's whether such things are possible at all. On further investigation, it appears the 60 foot-pound injury threshold cited by Hatcher may be misleading--a falling bullet's kinetic energy (foot pounds) alone is not a good predictor of the speed it needs to inflict a wound. B. N. Mattoo (Journal of Forensic Sciences, 1984) has proposed an equation relating mass and bullet diameter that seems to do a better job. Experiments on cadavers and such have shown, for example, that a .38 caliber revolver bullet will perforate the skin and lodge in the underlying tissue at 191 feet per second and that triple-ought buckshot will do so at 213 feet per second.
Mattoo's equation predicts that Hatcher's .30 caliber bullet, which has a small diameter in relation to its weight, will perforate the skin at only 124 feet per second. It's easy to believe that such a bullet falling at 300 feet per second could kill you, especially if it struck you in the head. In fact, maybe I need to rethink my dismissive comments about the danger of throwing a penny off the Empire State Building, although I still think the penny's tumbling in the updrafts would render it harmless.
So, Middle Eastern men, gang bangers, etc., listen up! It has been scientifically shown that firing guns into the air for entertainment is not a good idea. Please stop right away. Also knock off with the holy wars and random violence. Thank you.
--CECIL ADAMS

jsalcedo
October 25, 2005, 09:35 AM
LaEscopeta

Thanks for posting that. Very informative.

saltydog452
October 25, 2005, 10:09 AM
If a bullet is falling straight down and has enough energy to do any damage, then the gravitational pull of Earth must have gone through some serious changes between the time the round was fired up, and the time the round ran out of acceleration energy and started falling back to earth due to gravational energy.

Now if the 'bullet' was the weight of a building or bowling ball, I wouldn't wanna be standing in the impact area. Otherwise, yeah a 150 grain bullet might dent a soft pine board.

I dunno. I did sleep through a few of my High School Physics classes. Maybe I dis-remember some stuff. Does a pound of air still weigh as much as a pound of water?

salty.

Missashot
October 25, 2005, 01:10 PM
Oh well, guess grandpa, the goats and myself will just move inside if someone around here gets the bright idea of shooting guns at nothing in particular.:neener:

Ryder
October 25, 2005, 01:40 PM
Given the size of their cities and the barreness of their surrouindings I can't help but wonder why they don't at least take the effort to lob them out of town. Strange indeed.

280PLUS
October 26, 2005, 12:35 PM
You should try teaching those guys driving safety. I saw more one car accidents on our small closed FOB than I do in a major American city. I watched some Arabic woman do a 360 on a snow covered road, straighten out and keep going without so much a s slowing down. :eek:

Trenton NJ is famous for random concentrated small arms fire on New Years Eve too.

twency
October 26, 2005, 02:38 PM
The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.If an abundance of rifles and assault guns [sic] is a curse, then to quote Tevye (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067093/quotes): "May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover!"

________________________
-twency

nomadboi
October 28, 2005, 01:35 PM
From today's news on Iran:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4384264.stm
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40958000/jpg/_40958424_flag203bap.jpg

I wouldn't call those joy bullets, but they're every bit as stupid if they're actually shooting at that Israeli flag...

strambo
October 28, 2005, 03:01 PM
I hope they are shooting that flag...idiots. Besides, if a bullet goes through an Israeli flag and kills someone you can still blame it on Israel. Win/Win situation for them.:uhoh:

clone
October 28, 2005, 04:47 PM
well hell if thats the case they could just wrap there gun in a Israeli flag and go commit a crime, blame it on Israeli's. interesting idea's they have over there. :neener:

Kurush
October 28, 2005, 06:53 PM
If a "joy bullet" falls and kills somebody, they will say it was just the will of God. For the same reason, they don't aim their guns, because whether the bullets hit or not is also the will of God. To be fair many Americans hold similar beliefs, the difference is that the Army drills it out of them.

Look up the term "thought terminating cliche" some time.

dukeofurl
October 29, 2005, 06:20 AM
I'm reading the wiki entry on the george moscone assassination....

On Monday, November 27, 1978, the day Moscone was set to appoint someone to the vacant District 8 seat, White dressed in a brown suit, packed his loaded policeman's service revolver and several extra bullets into his coat pocket and had an unsuspecting friend drive him to San Francisco City Hall. Once there, White parted from his friend and slipped into City Hall through a basement window in order to avoid metal detectors. He climbed the stairs to the mayor's office and was allowed to see Moscone after a short wait. Upon entering Mayor Moscone's outer office, the two men began to argue about the pending appointment. Moscone suggested they retire to a small private lounge attached to the mayor's office so as not to be overheard by those waiting outside. Once inside the small room, White pulled his revolver and shot the mayor twice in the chest. White then stood over the prostrate mayor and pumped two more bullets into his head. Moscone was dead. White hurried out of the mayor's office, passing an unwitting Dianne Feinstein on his way to the supervisors' side of the city offices.

Just think how history could have changed if she was in the room too....

c_yeager
October 29, 2005, 07:00 AM
Just think how history could have changed if she was in the room too....

Yeah, she could have given Dan White a big hug. The man targeted his two victims for personal reasons, he would not likely have shot DF.

It is one of the most fascinating stories of political intrigue and the justice system though. I believe it was the origin of the term "Twinkie Defense".

twency
October 30, 2005, 10:58 PM
man, how different would history be if feinstein didnt exist
What does this thread hijack have to do bullets fired randomly in the air?

_________________________
-twency

c_yeager
October 31, 2005, 10:25 AM
What does this thread hijack have to do bullets fired randomly in the air?

If i were suddenly transported into an alternate reality that didnt contain DF I would probably feel inclined to fire my AK-47 into the air as an expression of joy.

twency
October 31, 2005, 10:28 AM
If i were suddenly transported into an alternate reality that didnt contain DF I would probably feel inclined to fire my AK-47 into the air as an expression of joy.Good point. Suddenly it all becomes clear. :)
________________
-twency

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