Shelters for extended bug-out, SHTF, TEOTW

[Nematocyst]

Since Katrina (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153978), I've participated in a gazillion threads on preparedness, bug-out bags & kits (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154017), vehicles (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=155890), bikes (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151102); which guns/ammo would you want; I see there are also threads on food (haven't made it there yet, but hope to soon).

Watching the poor people (refugees, evacuees, whatever one calls them) get ported around from state to state after the crisis made me realize the importance of shelter, where "shelter" is not (in my definition) a hotel/motel, a superdome or a mission.

I'd like to think that if disaster hit my little city, destroying much of its structure, including my own studio (out here, more likely an earthquake, not a hurricane, or some other human-caused SHTF/TEOTW crisis), that I could have a comfortable, weather-worthy shelter to live in for a while - months or longer if necessary, whether it be in the side yard or in a national forest 40 miles from here.

I envision pulling my rig - well equiped with food, stove, weapons, rain gear, lanterns, first aid, sleeping gear...you know, all that BOB gear I've been collecting for years - into the USFS or BLM lands east or west of town. Lots of abandoned forest service roads out there, with healing clearcuts. Lots of deer, squirrel (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=160553), turkey, other birds. If I go east, there are trout/salmon streams.

But I wonder about shelter for an extended period.

Now, admittedly I'm not your typical American. I don't live in a large house, but a small warehouse-style (even if aesthetically pretty cool) studio. I don't have kids. My life style is such that I don't need many amenities for happiness. (Happiness is a warm gun, to play on the "guns in songs" thread.)

Still, if I had kids, or even a partner, I'd like to envision a shelter that could be heavy weather-resistant (read rain, snow, wind, cold), comfortable, and large enough to allow decent living for an extended period. That does NOT translate into "backpacking tent" (which do have their place; I own 3 Himilaya-worthy pack tents).

For some, the solution is a camper on a pick-up. For others, it's an RV. (Been there, done that. Had a 34' travel trailer. Too refined for my taste. No thanks.)

For me, it translates into something with which I could augment my 24' fifth-wheel cargo trailer outfitted with propane cook stove in a 4' mobile kitchen box, food, sleeping gear, backpacks, climbing gear, and other BOB goodies, to extend the living and sleeping space, especially in case I have company (like for instance, the woman of my dreams, wearing a 9 mm and carrying her shotgun on the way out of town :evil: ).

I have lived in my trailer on camp retreats with students, but would rather have a tent, yurt or dome in addition to that for sleeping space, since we usually keep the cooking gear, fuel etc in the trailer.

So, I'm looking at large tents (e.g., Baker's tent, wall tent), yurts or geodesic domes (in the 12'-16' size range). All of those have relatively tall ceilings, and enough space for an intimate party of two (or more) to make it for a month or more without severe cabin fever.

Here are some preliminary finds.

Tents

I've found several sources of tents online. I'm particularly fond of Baker's tents (http://www.redhawk-trading.com/baker-tent.htm) because I could pitch a 10'-16'er beside my cargo trailer, and even attach the canopy to the roof rack for stability in wind. The trailer could be on the windward side deflecting wind. It'd be like an extra room, with the canopy forming sort of a covered patio between them.

But my concern about larger tents like wall tents is that I think they were designed mainly for drier areas. I live in the western regions of the Pacific NW, near the ocean. It rains a LOT here already, and with impending climate change (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153994), local modelers are projecting increasingly heavy rains in coming years. My sense is that such a tent of canvas would get soggy quickly in the rainy season (usually Oct - April around here).

Of course, there are some larger expedition mountain tents (http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/tentdetail.cfm/BD102) that are relatively water proof that shed wind, but they aren't as large as a wall tent.

Tipi's could work, but I have the same issue: what about wet? And all that vertical space just seems to be overkill, even if the steep pitch may help shed precipitation.

A portable wood stove (http://www.campingtent.biz/page/page.cfm/cylinderstoves) would help, but I'm still not sure about the wet factor.

Domes

I've found a couple of sites selling domes. In fact, one (http://www.pacificdomes.com/)is in a nearby town. Domes are cool. The are spacious, and nearly bombprooof when it comes to extreme weather. They shed high winds due to their hemispherical shape (unlike wall tents which provide a large rectangular surface to wind).

There are two problems with domes: 1) they are difficult to put up. Anything larger than a 12' will take 2-3 people 4-6 hours. The amount of work multiplies exponentially with the size. 2) Expense: even a 16' will cost between $3000 & $4000. They're great for more permanent installations (e.g., 'cabin on the lake' or even a home for the adventurous), but I'm not sure in this case.

Yurts

Likewise, I've found a couple of sources for yurts. They tend to be less expensive, and shed winds almost as good as domes. They're not as simple to erect as tents, but less time consuming than domes. (In case the SHTF in your SHTF camp, best to be able to move quickly.)

Here are two:

http://www.yurts.com/

http://www.yurts-r-us.com/index.htm

... but both tend to be a little more ... 'foofy', too refined, too permanent looking. I'm looking for something more mobile & utilitarian.
_______

So, why am I writing all this here?

I'm looking stories about experiences, shelter success (or failure) stories, suggestions, ideas, & sources, of course. There are lots of outdoor oriented folks on this list, with a healthy number of survivalists from far-flung places in big outback places like ID & AK.

I'm not interested in information about RV's and expensive, self-contained bug-out vehicles (http://www.unicat.net/en/pics/UXL17HD-2.html). That's another thread.

I'm more interested in tents, yurts, domes & related mobile shelter technologies but sophisticated and cool enough for a THR extended camp retreat, complete with nearby make-shift shooting range.

OK, folks: let'r rip. Let's see what turns up. ;)

Nem

[Devonai]

You need more than a mil-spec poncho and four bungee cords???

I have a cabin 100 miles NW of here that I plan on using for TEOTWAWKI, but if for some reason I thought I couldn't get there I'd order myself a GI surplus GP Medium, or general-purpose tent. Last I checked you could get a full GP Medium with all stakes and accessories for around $500.

[JamisJockey]

You completely skipped canvas wall tents. Big and heavy, and spendy, but with the addition of a wood stove and an extra window or two you have a true 4-season shelter. My buddy has one, just got back from elk hunting.
20* outside, 80* inside with two windows unzipped.

Edit: I re-read your post. You didn't skip wall tents buy only did a touch-and-go on them. I'd lean towards a wall tent for a family shelter. Having a smaller family sized dome tent would be an option if you have go it on foot. As a bonus, you could use the dome as a storage shed if you take both with you via vehicle.

Reading you post, I think a Wall tent would be perfect. You could probably get rid of the trailer with one, since it would provide you with a decent amount of living space. Add a stove and you're set.
Cabela's (http://www.cabelas.com) is selling them together as a package. There is a local company here, Kirkham's (AAA Wall Tents) (http://www.springbar.com/wall_tents/) that customizes them. I've seen thier product, and its damn good.
If you've got the space (like a pickup bed), get a cabin-style frame. With the tent framed and guy-wired out, you're going to withstand all kinds of icky weather.

[clt46910]

Years back...we had a large canvas wall tent we used for deer camp. It was called a shepherds tent.

It was fairly large with metal plate in the roof for a small wood stove the heated it. We would sleep six guys in it comfortablity on cots. Stayed nice and warm. These make a great semi-permanent type shelter.

[Preacherman]

I've slept in wall tents in mountainous terrain, in sub-zero temperatures. With an internal wood stove, they're amazingly warm and comfortable (although anyone entering or leaving, letting the cold air in, is likely to attract some highly interesting language, which I can't reproduce on a family-friendly forum like this... :D ).

The biggest problem with wall tents appears to be erecting them with a limited supply of manpower. I've found that military-type wall tents really need half-a-dozen people to put up with any sort of speed and relative ease. However, the Kirkham's wall tents referred to above have a different, cabin-style internal frame: I suspect this would make it relatively easy for one or two people to erect the tent.

Once they're up, wall tents can resist fairly strong winds, particularly if they're sited next to something like a ridge or treeline that can help as a wind break. Again, the internal-frame cabin-style structure should be even stronger than the traditional post-and-guy method. They also offer a very large internal volume, and can store lots of stuff or allow many people to sleep inside them (most I've seen was 24 guys in a large military wall tent - there wasn't much space to move around, but everyone could stretch out on a mattress or camp cot without hitting the guy next to him).

As for long-term use, I suspect that a lot of problems could be solved by adding a weatherproof flysheet to the tent. Canvas can and will deteriorate slowly if directly exposed to rain, snow, mud, etc.: but a polypropylene sheet over the tent, suitably fastened, will protect it from much of that contact, and should make it suitable for many months of continuous use. Another VERY important point for long-term use: as a minimum, have a heavy-duty tarpaulin for use as a floor. Wooden duck-boards are even better. The floor of the tent will get wet/dusty/whatever, depending on your climate, and it's no good having an effective tent erected above a swamp two feet deep!

(How do I know this, you ask? Trust me. I know this. :evil: )

[Polishrifleman]

With the family growing from wife to wife and kids I upgraded from 2 and 3 person backpacking tents (size depended on where we were going and for how long) to a 6 person behemoth for car camping. It fits an inflatable queen matress, and backpacking self inflatables on either side for the boys plus clothes. The big bonus is it has a huge vestibule area (no floor) to keep bikes, coolers, bbq, etc.. out of the rain etc..

This is a tent that you actually set up the rain fly first (fully encompassing, no windows just air vents) and then hang the tent internally with hooks and gromets. I can not vouch for the snow and say that under a heavy load it would collapse. As preacherman stated heavy duty TARPS are a must and can be used for a multitude of projects. Your heat source would have to be something vented out the vestibule which is totally doable but would need to be carfully done due to the petroleum make up of the tent materials.

I live in the PNW too and would not hesitate to get a good 3 season tent, especially on the West side of the mountains. There are too many good places to go and hole up below the snow line, a lot of cover to keep most of the wind off, and solid fish and game.

My tent brand is a BobKatz (they don't seem to make them anymore) out of Vancouver Canada.

On another note, I would like to experiment with teepee's one day. If they could keep the plains Indians alive through that weather and be protable it might be worth looking into.

[RiverwinoIA]

if you have a big tarp, some paracord, a shovel, and a saw you can make a pretty sturdy lean-to type structure by using a tree and some logs. I made a small one earlier this fall while doing my first attempt at overnighting in the woods with only my pack. It worked well, but since it was warm out i didnt need to seal it good or build a fire in it. id imagine that would be easy to do though, especially if you were spending an extended period of time in it (give you lots of time to work on it)
i built mine after reading Bradford Angiers book on wilderness survival, just to see if i would find it "liveable".


the thing i liked about the shanty-style shelter is that its against a big tree, in the woods, made of logs, and a green tarp. therefore, its alot less noticeable than a big tent in a clearing or a trailer parked off the side of the road. attention is probably the last thing you want when you have to actually bug out.

couple of obvious pointers
-dont build it on low ground (rain will flow in)
-dont build it against a really tall tree (lightening, wind may blow it down)
-dig a hole under the tree/into the roots. lay a board across some exposed roots, then cover it with dirt. that hole will be the "secret storage space" (ammo, food, extra guns etc). just in case someone rifles through your shanty while your out.
-try to locate your shelter near a river, but off the floodplain. Rivers provide water, food (fish and mammals), fertile soil to grow in, a path to explore with (if you get lost follow the river back home). Dont build it so it can be seen from the riverbottom though, as other people will use the river too.

[Nematocyst]

Good ideas so far.

I'm sure others will post suggestions about tarp tents, using ponchos, etc for shelter. OK, I can and have done that, too. I know how to make small shelters. Used them exclusively sans tent on backpacking expeditions for years. They work great in a pinch.

But in this thread, I'm more interested in larger, more comfortable, stand-up-and-move-around-inside shelters suitable for longer durations (a month or more) in really inclement weather. Smaller tarp shelters and backpacking tents don't work so well for that.

JJ, those AAA wall tents look really primo. Nice web site also, including an option to price out a custom tent with all the options you want. For example, I can get a custom 10 X 12 with treated 'duck' canvas (extra water resistance); flap-covered door; vinyl floor with stove cut out; triangular window in the rear for ventilation; roll up side walls; a rain fly (good idea, P'man); & internal, free-standing, cabin-style frame (another great idea) for around $1300. Not bad at all.

Still hoping to hear from some about yurts & domes, also.

You could probably get rid of the trailer with one, since it would provide you with a decent amount of living space. Regardless of what I get, I won't be replacing the trailer with it, just augmenting the camp with extra space. The trailer is a custom-built cargo by Pace American. It has several uses in my business, including carrying a sound system & serving as a stage and/or sound booth for music festivals. We also sometimes serve as a kitchen for musicians and stage hands.

It doubles as a kitchen, library & gear hauler for camp retreats for students and faculty (see image below; mobile kitchen cabinet with stove on wheels in right rear), and - in a SHTF scenario - will hopefully be a key ingredient in a bug-out strategy should it come to that. It stays mostly loaded and ready to go, parked in my studio.

But it isn't large enough to serve as a bedroom for more than a couple, three max. Plus for a month or more, cabin fever would set in for even two. Adding a tent would allow much more sleeping, lounging & 'living room/den' space, and make the camp palatial.

Preacherman, I hear you about a floor and not pitching a tent in a swamp. Reminds me of my first trip out west (from Memphis) in my early 20's. We were greenhorns then. We stopped in Zion National Park, set up a "family-style" camping light-weight wall tent (this was pre-backpacking days) in the last space available in the camp ground.

We soon learned why it was the last tent space. A heavy August thunderstorm dumped about 1" of rain in less than an hour, flooding our end of the camp ground several inches deep in red muddy water. Fortunately the tent had a floor, but the water got in anyway. We slept in the VW bus that night.

Nem

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28826&d=1126679052

[NMshooter]

I have worked out of GP Med and Large tents before, and set them up too.

Had a lot of help, especially for the large.

I guess it makes a difference when you have a couple dozen motivated folks used to following orders when pitching a big tent.;)

Even without a heater a tent provides cover from the wind, that makes a big difference, and the interior will warm up with people inside.

For some things you really need a shelter of some sort, just to keep the wind and rain off.

We also had shelters built out of standard cargo pallet sized aluminium panels that were just like sheet metal buildings. They were still standing after five years in an unforgiving environment (Saudi Arabia). Perhaps something like that might be available. You would need a flatbed trailer to carry the pieces and a number of people to set it up, but you would have a portable building essentially like a permanent building.

Just how many people do you envision with you?

[JamisJockey]

Dude, your trailer has some decent ameneties, you might look at a cook tent. Its like a wall tent, but not fully walled in, usually. Or, make sure to get roll up sides (or at least one side) on your wall tent.

Re: Milspec CP tents (these are the little command post tents). They are black holes. What I mean is that they allow very little natural light into them.
GP tents are really fking big. I mean like 15x30 or something obscene. CP tents are often used for officer quarters, while the GP tents are usually used for enlisted quarters.

[JamisJockey]

Oh, yea.
My buddy has a 12x14. He has the cabin frame. He has put it up several times by himself, takes about 30 minutes once you get used to it, another 15 or so to run guylines.

[Nematocyst]

For some things you really need a shelter of some sort, just to keep the wind and rain off. So true. Over years of backpacking in "the high country" (mostly in NM & CO), I learned (first time, the hard way) how important it is to stay dry and keep the wind off your skin when it's cold. (Can you spell 'hypothermia'?)

Shelters like tents, yurts & domes are large scale rain gear and wind protection, not to mention insulators as you point out.

Water absorbs approximately 20X as much heat as air, which means when you're wet, you're going to lose approximately 20X as much heat as when you're dry.

Likewise, even if you are insulated with down, fleece or wool, wind can penetrate those layers and steal your heat without a layer to stop it.

We also had shelters built out of standard cargo pallet sized aluminium panels that were just like sheet metal buildings. They were still standing after five years in an unforgiving environment (Saudi Arabia). Perhaps something like that might be available. You would need a flatbed trailer to carry the pieces and a number of people to set it up, but you would have a portable building essentially like a permanent building. What a cool idea. More than I want to deal with right now, but I can envision some future-primitive, nomadic madmax cultures in which such modular shelter could be common, assuming they can find enough petrol (or horses, or oxen) to cart them around. :D

Just how many people do you envision with you? Hmm. I suspect that's in part beyond my control. Depends on the circumstances.

But I hope at least a few of them will be THR'ers.

Speaking of, we should throw a THR party sometime...

We could play some songs with gun references (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162219). :evil:

Nem

[Nematocyst]

Oh, yea.
My buddy has a 12x14. He has the cabin frame. He has put it up several times by himself, takes about 30 minutes once you get used to it, another 15 or so to run guylines. Wow. Now that's a set up time I can live with.

Check on the roll up walls. Especially in summer. And why go to the outdoors then build an indoors that permanently excludes the outdoors, if you catch my drift. :D

Thanks for the nod on the trailer. Yeah, she's a work-in-progress. She is why my studio is a warehouse with a 12X12 bay door: got to have it inside for more work.

That trailer is the second draft of the mobile transport component of my profeesional project. First draft was a 6X10 trailer. I hope the third draft is a full-sized semi pulled by a Kenworth tractor, assuming diesel is still available and is less than $10/gal.

(When I bought my current PowerStroke diesel to pull that trailer, diesel was the cheapest of the four flavors of fuel @ < $1/gal. Now it's the most expensive @ $3.16/gal. Glad I live in a bike friendly town. I only fill up once every two months or so.)

Nem

[rwc]

Nem,
I knew some folks on San Juan Is. with a yurt. It was set up for year round living, but may give you some ideas.
Their yurt was about 30' in diameter and was divided in two with a 4' wide gravel path running through the middle from the door to the other side of the yurt where a wood stove was positioned. On either side of the gravel path they had built raised platforms (crescent shaped). One side was the kitchen/dining area with a sink (fed by 5 gal. tapped containers), a propane refridgerator, counters, shelves, storage, etc. The other side was bisected by a free standing wardrobe that separated the "bedroom" from a small sitting area with a futon/couch. They had a couple framed windows and a skylight/vent at the apex of the roof. It was hinged and could be lifted with a rod.

Have fun.

rwc

[Bob F.]

Check out teepees! Pretty amazing.

[JamisJockey]

Check out teepees! Pretty amazing.

And you have to tote around 15'ish poles.

[NMshooter]

Nematocyst, whatever else you do if you really want a large shelter you should get a GP medium or large kit, the full tent with poles, ropes, stakes, etc. surplus, throw it in the garage or the trailer after inspecting and cleaning it and forget about it.

Tents are expensive, this may be a bit more affordable.

Also look at www.actiongear.com they have a few listings for some smaller shelters that might be of interest.

And remember you can have easily portable or nice to live in during bad weather but not both...;)

[Jeff White]

I wouldn't recommend just throwing a military tent in the garage or trailer and forgetting about it. They need preventative maintenance just like so much other equipment. If you have a lot of humidity or moisture you'll get mildew and rot. A few years down the road, you'll unpack your tent when you really need it and find it unserviceable.

You should also now that even a GP small is a two man operation to set up. Probably need four people for a GP large. They are heavy and bulky too.

Jeff

[Nematocyst]

Jeff, I tend to agree. Any gear requires maintenance & care. However, knowing NMShooter from other threads, I doubt he'd disagree.

Check out teepees! Pretty amazing. Bob, while I tend to agree with JJ about those 15' poles, I do have a 24' trailer with a roof rack where said poles could be carried.

However, I'm curious: what is it about tipis that makes them so worthwhile? Speaking from ignorance, cause i've never lived in one, it seems that all that top space in the top of the cone would be hard to heat, not very useful use of fabric, etc.

Maybe I'm missing something though.

Your perspective welcome, along with a suggestion of a source.
____

RWC, nice image you built of your friends yurt. Sounds cool, even if a 30'er is a bit large for me, something about yurts appeal. If it's good enough for Siberian nomads living in permanently frozen tundra over several thousand years, it's got to be good technology. (I saw a PBS program about the yurts with double walls - a yurt inside a yurt - within which one can sleep under a blanket with -50*F outside and only a candle. Awesome.)

Still also hoping that persons with knowledge of small yurts and geodesic domes will drop in.

Nem

[hso]

Stove to heat your retreat.
http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=63&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=671&iSubCat=737&iProductID=63

[NMshooter]

The Pacific NW does contain a rather large rain forest...

Perhaps I should have said "hang up in your garage", but I think you know what I meant.;)

And the old trick with the fuel can made into a heater is not a very good idea, hso shows something much better.

Jeff White, are you familiar with a geodesic dome shaped tent that was in use (issued, at least in the USAF) in the early '90s? I used one once and it was a really nice family sized tent, not too hard to put up and lightweight. Cannot remember the manufacturer.

[chaim]

Since Katrina I've also been thinking about shelter possibilities since we now see that even outside the massive, society collapse type SHTF situations you may need long term shelter. Living in a tent for a week or two isn't enough, and you won't have the money for a hotel (unless you are rich).

My thoughts were that it can't cost a fortune (I'm not rich) and needs to be useful outside the SHTF situation since that still isn't that likely.

My initial thoughts are along the lines of a camp trailer- gives extra storage space, a comfortable place to live, isn't insanely expensive, and is nice fun recreation under normal circumstances. However, that is still not cheap and requires a vehicle that can pull it (though a pop-up can be handled by most mid-sized and larger cars).

So, for now (I don't have a ton of money) I've been kind of thinking along your lines and it looks to me that Cabela's has some decent looking options (tents that can be used for normal camping, but heavier duty, more weather resistant than a regular camping tent). http://www.cabelas.com/

I like the looks of the "XWT Extreme Weather Tent" ( http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20075&rid=&indexId=cat550002&navAction=push&navCount=31&parentType=index&parentId=cat550002&id=0024840 ) for most needs. Definately good except for the coldest days. Resistant to the elements and wind and lots of room for a dome type tent. The only problem I see is no apparent allowance for wood burning camping stove so in colder climates, or dead winter in much of the US, it could be a problem.

The "Deluxe Alaknak™ II Tent" ( http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20075&rid=&indexId=cat550002&navAction=push&navCount=42&parentType=index&parentId=cat550002&id=0005884 ) also looks very interesting. Basically a synthetic fiber wall tent so it should have more moisture resistance in rainy climates and (possibly more important) it should be much lighter and thus easier to set up and maneuver. I'm sure the material is probably pretty heavy duty, however I suspect it wouldn't be as good as a wall tent for long term use. Otherwise it should have most to all of the advantages of the canvas wall tents.

The "Big Horn™ II Tent" also looks interesting, but pretty expensive ($600 without the stove, $650 with the stove).

Also the modular wall tent seems to be synthetic fiber as well, and allow you to use one tent in different potential configurations for decent flexibility.

Of course, something still tells me that their standard canvas wall tent might just be the best long term option for any long term that includes winter. Get that and add the "Cook shack" and you now have two rooms, and more apparent flexibility. They also offer a "blend" with the duck canvas top and lighter sythetic walls to cut weight but adds price.

Hmm...Not to hyjack Nematocyst's thread, but of the Cabela's options, which looks best, especially for someone who may want the ability to set up alone?

[clt46910]

Personally, I like the wall tent with a frame. Used them before and like them. The Alaknak would be a close second. Never used one before but looks like it would be comfortable over an extented period. I would use a separate cooking fly/tent reqardless which one I had. I found it just makes a more comfortable and safer camp to keep the cooking away from the sleeping areas.

[Nematocyst]

Hmm...Not to hyjack Nematocyst's thread, but of the Cabela's options, which looks best, especially for someone who may want the ability to set up alone? Chaim, that's not hijacking at all. As long as we're discussing larger tents, yurts & domes, maybe with stove, maybe associated with a trailer or vehicle of some kind (camper, travois, ATV...), then I'm happy as a clam.

CLT46910, I see you're relatively new; welcome to THR. Excellent point about keeping the cooking stuff out of the sleeping area. Another reason to do that: bears.

Chaim, you brought a couple of great options to the table. Nice job. I've bookmarked both for more consideration once I get some time. (Extremely busy with a work project right now, but THR is such a pleasant and useful distraction.)

I personally can't answer your question about which one would be easier to put up alone, because I've not seen the frame of either one of them yet. My gut level sense is neither one would be fun to put up alone, especially in a stiff wind, but could be doable if you'd practiced it at home first. (Ever watch someone at a campground that had obviously just left JackMart with a spiffy new camping tent, but has never put it up before? Great sitcom material.)

The Alaknak appears to me to be something like a more traditional wall tent - those vertical side walls give that away - but the waterproof material appeals to me living in the Pac NW, & the extra peaked roof would be great for shedding precipitation. My greatest concern - and it's merely a question, cause i've got no data - would be durability. I know from experience that if tents, especially those in the lighter weight synthetic fabrics, aren't sown and designed very well, they can be less durable than heavier wall tents (assuming reasonable maintenance).

The XWT looks very appealing too, aside from the lack of stove option. But it would undoubtedly shed winds much better than a wall tent. If I'm going to be in a windy area, especially high sustained winds, give me a dome any day. (That's part of the reason I want to look at yurts & geodesic domes: their wind shedding potential exceeds wall tents by a considerable margin. And, with a yurt at least, stoves are an option).

The XWT looks very similar in design (though not size) to some smaller backpacking tents. My Moss Olympic comes to mind. (Can't find a picture of it; appears that Moss has been bought by MSR... but that's another story.) My olympic is an 8 lb, 3 person dome tent with internal frame & a separate rainfly that is just bombproof. I've weathered horrific storms in it above the tree line in CO & NM. It also has a large vestibule, like the XWT. It's downside for SHTF extended use is size & height: you can sit up right in it, but forget about standing unless you're a 6 year old.

The XWT was no doubt influenced and/or motivated by that. I can't tell exactly what the roof height is for the XWT, though. Cabela's doesn't list it.

I can't stress the importance of stability in wind enough, especially for anyone living west of the Mississippi. Those of you in the east, with lots of woods & hedgerows just can't know what it's like.

One might expect that in Oregon, there are lots of trees. Yes, in the western 1/3 of the state, that's true: rainforests. But in the eastern 2/3, it's great basin desert: big open country. Same in the states east of here. I don't even want to think of setting up a wall tent on an open plain in winter out there. Sure, if it's guyed out really well, it'll work. Or if you can find a windbreak. But the problem with windbreaks is, what if you get hit by a "backdoor" front: one coming in from the east with your windbreak on the west of you. (Been there, done that; unpleasant experience.)

So for out there, I want a shelter than eats wind for lunch and dinner then cries for more. Again, I utter the words: yurt & dome.

The yurt evolved on the great plains of Mongolia and related lands. They are round, and shed wind very well while still having a tall roof. They just don't seem to be very popular here, at least in more portable versions.

Here's a cool example (http://www.hollowtop.com/hopsstore_html/mongolian_ger.htm) that I just found. It appears they don't sell them here anymore, and I can't speak to water resistance/proofness. That'll take some more research. But you can get an idea about them. Don't they look cozy? Check out the thickness of the walls. And I'll bet it'll stand up to winds that will take a wall tent down.

Hmmm...do I see a business opportunity there...?:scrutiny:

Edit: check this (http://www.samarmagictours.com/en_ata.htm)out.

[DelayedReaction]

My situation is dissimilar to yours, in that I'm a single young man who would probably end up going solo. Since I live in the middle of the MD/DC/VA suburbian hellhole, the chances of me getting out anywhere via car are practically nonexistant. To me that means a portable system that can in my pack.

There's a company that makes a product called a "Hennessy Hammock" (http://www.hennessyhammock.com/) which has received extremely good reviews. It's a covered hammock that's suitable for a variety of seasonal camping (you can get an insulated bottom layer for cold weather operations), and is lightweight and easy to set up. Although not necessarily an idealized structure, for someone who intends to be constantly moving it should function well.

[MillCreek]

This is a very interesting thread. I live in the same sort of weather geography as does Nem. Having been a backpacker and hiker for three decades now, I am pretty familiar with using tents in this area. But a question remains: how do these large wall tents, yurts and whatnot handle interior condensation? My backpacking tents, even with all the vents, flaps and ailerons still produce a lot of condensation inside in our cold and wet climate. You can wake up with your gear and sleeping bag almost as wet as if you had slept outside.

[Jeff White]

NMshooter,
I've seen those geodesic dome shaped tents, but have no experience with them. The new modular tents are very nice, but they are obscenely expensive.

Jeff

[NMshooter]

New modular tents?

So there are finally replacements for all that old musty canvas?

One thing I would like to mention that no one else has is the need for cots.

Sleeping on a pad, even a Thermarest, gets old. Especially if you have back problems.

My experience is limited to the very rugged US issue aluminium framed cot, and it is better than sleeping on the ground.

Guess an old inflatable mattress could be used, but have lots of patches handy...

Folding tables and chairs would be needed too, and lots of other things that escape me at the moment.

[mitchshrader]

the portable garage idea? Or building one?

I built a Very Nice (quonset style) shelter (dimensions variable, dealers choice) out of PVC 2" pipe & doubled cheap tarp. you can carry 20' joints, or halve em and use connectors. Way lighter than a teepee. Less sturdy than a 'proper' yurt but much sturdier than it looks. Cheap, off the shelf parts, and multi use as well. Use GOOD stakes (30 inch 5/8 rebar with a capped 1' x 1'' od oversleeve to prevent the rebar from abrading the butt of your PVC poles) and you can figure on getting through the winter. Grommet kit & a hatful of grommets, roll of para cord, quite useful.

[Nematocyst]

the portable garage idea? Mitch, great idea. Hadn't even thought of it.

Interestingly, I already own a kiosk that I use for street fairs for my business. Frame made of 1" conduit, cover of fire-retardant vinyl tarp.

It wouldn't serve as a main sleeping quarters, or even as a weather worthy shelter in the dead of winter (no possibility of putting a stove in it, like in a wall tent). But for a gathering space or dining space for a camp during 3-seasons, it'd be great.

Funny I never thought of using the business kiosk for a camp. Chalk up another camp tool.

Still, I want to find one of those incredible yurts as sleeping/living room quarters for those winter camps...just cause they're so cool looking. :cool:

[LightningJoe]

My plan is to lay the backseat of our Hyundai Elantra down and use the backseat and trunk as a sleeping area. Small car, good gas mileage, travel light, get to relatives in a different part of the country. I'm not planning a camping trip, but a bugout.

[Nio]

I use one for backpacking all the time.

Try this: Why Hammock? (http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/shelter/whyhammock.htm)

I've been using Hennessy Hammock (http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/shelter/hthh.htm)s for awhile.

Nio

[Thin Black Line]

I have a cabin 100 miles NW of here that I plan on using for TEOTWAWKI

Hopefully, you won't find it occupied by 10 guys who only lived 15 miles
away from it ;)

[Nematocyst]

My plan is to lay the backseat of our Hyundai Elantra down and use the backseat and trunk as a sleeping area. Small car, good gas mileage, travel light, get to relatives in a different part of the country. I'm not planning a camping trip, but a bugout. Hey, Joe. Sounds like a plan.

Let us know how that backseat and trunk feel a month or so after bugout.

If less than desirable, maybe you can find us on our 'camping trip', & maybe there'll be an extra cot in a yurt heated with a wood stove, next to the cook tent where the squirrel stew (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=160553) is simmerin'. ;)

Nem

[NMshooter]

Hey, Nematocyst, I was wondering what sort of cot you would recommend, and any sleeping bags as well.

I am currently without cot, and have a Wiggy's ultralite bag.

[Sam]

Slightly OT but this is what's replacing all the military canvas over the next 6 years:
http://www.alaskastructures.com/gsa.html

For the military they offer a lot of advantages. Lots tougher than the TEMPER tents, warmer and cooler as appropriate, less maintainance and better interior room. They even make a ceiling panel to stash your gear on.
Believe they will start doing some smaller sizes in the next year.

Sam

[Nematocyst]

Hey, Nematocyst, I was wondering what sort of cot you would recommend, and any sleeping bags as well.

I am currently without cot, and have a Wiggy's ultralite bag. Shooter, I don't currently even own a cot, although after someone mentioned one earlier in the thread, I'm going to look at them again. The last one I tried - years ago - wasn't very comfortable. Now, I actually always sleep on the ground when camping (or on a futon in the trailer).

I've got a very comfortable full length air mattress by Thermarest. (When backpacking, to save a few ounces, I carry my 3/4 length with 1/2 of a closed cell foam pad for under my feet, which also doubles as a "kneeling pad" for camp use (e.g., cooking).

If anyone has suggestions for good, lightweight,comfortable cots, I'm all ears.

As for bags, I tend to buy the best. I'm a thin guy without a lot of natural insulation, and I hate being cold. (Don't mind heat at all, but cold ... <shivers>.

I currently own three bags, all good quality goose down, but with different ratings: 25*, 5* & -25* (for dead ofwinter). One of them is by North Face, the other two by Marmot. Am happy with both, but given the chance and enough money, I'll buy Marmot every time, hands down.

Here's a few (http://www.backcountry.com/store/subcat/18/c/b82/Marmot-Sleeping-Bags.html) for reasonable prices (for Marmot bags).

Marmot bags are some of the best out there, but you'll pay dearly. My -25* Marmot, with "dryloft" treatment (which allows water to roll right off - even a whole glass of water just sits on the cover and doesn't soak in) will cost you around 5 bills. (It paid for itself in two nights in the Sangre de Cristos east of Santa Fe about a decade ago; most horrendous snow storm I've ever been in at 10800'. 70 mph winds & the thermometer read -10*F at 9 the next morning after I managed to dig out of the tent.)

Remember that sleeping bag temperature ratings assume no wind conditons (or used inside a tent) for an average person. If you're cold natured like me, I carry a 25* bag for 40* temps, and am prepared to sleep in fleece and long johns if I need to.

If you don't have a bag cover with dry loft, consider a bivy sack of gortex. It'll improve the rating of any bag by at least 5*, and is water proof. The only thing about bivies is, unless you ventilate, if you sweat, you may get wetter in the bivy than out of it. (Gortex or not.)

In any case, for sleeping bags, look carefully at: 1) the quality of goose down (volume/ounce should be high); 2) zippers: get the bags with the best zippers; a stuck zipper in a cold snow storm is a nightmare; 3) good draft tubes (that sit by the zipper to keep drafts out); 4) and for cold weather bags, a well-fitting hood is a must in my book.

Nem

[Nematocyst]

Slightly OT but this is what's replacing all the military canvas over the next 6 years:
http://www.alaskastructures.com/gsa.html Sam, that doesn't seem OT at all.

What cool buildings. And this: "Engineered to withstand 100 mph wind and 15 psf snow load. With lighter weight and lower cube, the AKSS system can be erected by four trained personnel in less than 30 minutes."

Wow. That's what I call SHTF material.

Wonder what the frames look like.

But wonder also what those "smaller versions" are going to cost. :eek:

[72Rover]

I was just considering this as well today. I've got pretty good camping gear accumulated over the years, and now that I've got an ex-MoD "Sankey" off-road trailer to haul behind the Land Rover, weight/space isn't an issue.

I've been considering one of those E-Z UP pop-up shelters or one of the lower-priced clones, either in 10x10 or 12x12. Quick (instant) set-up with reasonable snow-loading capabilities, and with accessories like side walls, it would make a pretty weather-secure cook-shack. I've also been considering modifying it somewhat to take a metal stove jack, to allow for a shepherd's or some other portable wood stove, like those advertised in Cabella's.

Cheers

[Nematocyst]

I've been considering one of those E-Z UP pop-up shelters or one of the lower-priced clones, either in 10x10 or 12x12. Quick (instant) set-up with reasonable snow-loading capabilities, and with accessories like side walls, it would make a pretty weather-secure cook-shack. 72Rover, I don't want to cast shadows on E-Z Up products. I think for what they are designed (street fairs, kiosks for venders at art/music festivals, etc), they're great.

Now take this with a BIG grain of salt, cause it's based mainly on 'gut level' impressions, but speaking only for myself, I don't think I'd want to use one for a "survival" shelter except in the best of weather. I'm not sure where you are, but in my part of the world, those "best of weather" conditions only happen in about three months of the year (mid-June through mid-September).

They're designed to go up and come down easily and be light to carry. And they accomplish that, but it seems to me at a price of potentially (again, gut level here) being less sturdy than other options. Let alone the less-expensive clones.

Even though they're more difficult to put up, I lean towards a more substantial frame based on either 3/4" or 1" steel conduit.

These folks (http://www.creativeshelters.com/) in a next door town, offer some pretty inexpensive shelters based on waterproof tarps & conduit frames. I use one for my business kiosk at street fairs & festivals. I'm pretty sure they also sell E-Z up (or some similar brand), and are very knowledgeable and willing to share their knowledge, so it might be worth exploring with them.

Nem

[NMshooter]

Actually I brought up cots a few posts back.:)

The GI cot is the one I have experience with, it worked well enough when I used one. Probably what I will end up with, since the others I have seen looked flimsy in comparison.

I like synthetic fill bags more, do not like getting poked by quills.

I keep looking at various sleeping systems, but am not yet willing to put down several hundred to try one out. Maybe someone here has used a multilayer bag/system and can tell us their experiences.

Sam, a smaller shelter like that would be very nice.

Any assorted stuff we have overlooked for living outdoors?

[Sam]

I was 1st Sgt at the 49th MMS when they adopted the Alaska shelter system.
The MMG specializes in establishing Bare Bases, the kind where a mud puddle and 2 miles of blacktop become AFB in 3 days. The Alaska system saved weight cube and time of assembly. Frames are tubular aluminum that nest. 1 man can carry an entire frame for some distance, that won't happen with a TEMPER. I was able to figure out the assembly on my own in about 30 minutes. There is no comparison between the Alaska and the tents.


They show a 1 man version in the recreation section of the website. One of my old troops told me they are playing with a 4 man setup that should be just the ticket, and if it ran $1K it would be a bargain.

Sam

[Nematocyst]

I like synthetic fill bags more, do not like getting poked by quills. Shooter, when I was backpacking more, I opted for down mainly because of the weight issue. I'm a small guy, and when your pack weighs 65, and you've got 2000' to climb for the day, every ounce counts.

Plus, the down lofts slightly better than synthetic fills. Yes, the synth bags are more insulating than down when they get wet, but being a tent guy (who seals his down bag in a plastic garbage bag for river crossings), I've never had a problem with keeping it dry.

Having said that, those synth bags can be very nice if you don't mind a few extra ounces. They are less expensive, and if you pay attention to bag construction and care for them (including shaking the hell out of them when you pull them out to increase their loft), they can be almost as warm as down.

With insulation, it's all about trapping air. The best way to do that is with the "loft" of down. But there are some new technologies available incorporating hollow fibers which trap extra air inside them, increasing R values.

I'd recommend going to a quality backpacking shop, one that caters to serious mountaineering expeditions. Even if you don't buy a bag from them, they can inform you about current technologies and good bags.

If you're anywhere near Albuquerque, I recommend a little backpack shop on Central Ave (Route 66) right across the street from UNM. Can't remember it's name (and can't say it's still there, having not been in ABQ for over a decade) that will steer you well. Talk to Bob, the owner.

Nem

[72Rover]

72Rover, I don't want to cast shadows on E-Z Up products. I think for what they are designed (street fairs, kiosks for venders at art/music festivals, etc), they're great.

Now take this with a BIG grain of salt, cause it's based mainly on 'gut level' impressions, but speaking only for myself, I don't think I'd want to use one for a "survival" shelter except in the best of weather. I'm not sure where you are, but in my part of the world, those "best of weather" conditions only happen in about three months of the year (mid-June through mid-September).

They're designed to go up and come down easily and be light to carry. And they accomplish that, but it seems to me at a price of potentially (again, gut level here) being less sturdy than other options. Let alone the less-expensive clones.

Nem

I know what you mean...indeed, I was considering the tarp'n'tube setup, and Cabela's is now marketing a wall tent version of the same system. We've been using several of these shelters for a couple of years now as rally HQ for the Rover club's functions, as weight/pack size isn't an issue there, either.

Now if they could just offer a camo version instead of white - or silver....

Cheers

[Nematocyst]

Now if they could just offer a camo version instead of white - or silver.... Rover, I wonder if there are ... paints? dies? stains? that one could use to turn a white or silver tarp into a camo without damaging the fabric, or making it too stiff?

Nem

[ArgentineSteel]

I have stayed in a home built Yurt with a good sized scout troop. The yurt was plenty big and was very comfortable. The roof was framed out from an old wagon wheel. Sides were rough cut and peeled logs, covered by canvas. Floor was decked and had a nice porch. Nice semi-permanent installation.

Lots of room, put in a wood stove, and you can live there year round.

[chaim]

A bit pricey, but according to the website they are supposed to be pretty windproof, pretty waterproof, and they are very lightweight and easy to transport in all their sizes. They are also available with stoves for warmth and cooking, and the stoves also appear to be pretty compact as well.

http://www.kifaru.net/TIPI_SLEDhm.htm

[Nematocyst]

Chaim, those look very interesting. You're right though, pretty pricey. {Ouch :what: }

I do like their conical design. Definitely would shed some serious wind.

My only problem with them - other than sticker shock - is that the usable space drops off as you get towards the side walls. At least with a traditional tipi, there's more space around the periphery, but then you've got all that high space that seems ... wasted and hard to heat.

The advantage of a yurt is vertical side walls that are circular. Thus you keep the wind shedding capacity while maintaining the usable space.

Problem is, nobody over here seems to be designing a good portable one. There are some companies making more permanent (& expensive) yurts, and at least one company importing traditional yurts from Asia (with wood frames & felt coverings), but nothing I've found yet using more modern fabrics & frame technologies.

Alls the pity. It's such a great design, used for millennia in the extremely windy and bitterly cold regions like Mongollia.

Why reinvent the wheel? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (And all manner of other cliches.)

Somebody out there is bound to be producing a modern technology version of a nomadic (move it once a month) yurt that could sleep 10 comfortably, with stove, and be carried easily in the back of a pickup.

If not, maybe it's time to go into business.

Call 'em BOYs: Bug Out Yurts. :o

Nem

[chaim]

Problem is, nobody over here seems to be designing a good portable one. There are some companies making more permanent (& expensive) yurts, and at least one company importing traditional yurts from Asia (with wood frames & felt coverings), but nothing I've found yet using more modern fabrics & frame technologies.

Alls the pity. It's such a great design, used for millennia in the extremely windy and bitterly cold regions like Mongollia.

Why reinvent the wheel? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (And all manner of other cliches.)

How "handy" are you? Is this something that you might be able to do yourself? Might be an interesting project for someone with the ability (i.e. definately not me).



If not, maybe it's time to go into business.

Until I got to this quote in your post I was going to say this myself. Are you the entreprenuerial type? The yurt does look like an interesting idea. If someone would market a smaller one (i.e. more camping friendly) that would be lighter and easier to put up (maybe out of canvas, nylon or some other similar material) and put it out at a reasonable price (which may be like those tee-pees with the synthetic material) I'd consider it.

[Nematocyst]

How "handy" are you? Is this something that you might be able to do yourself? Might be an interesting project for someone with the ability (i.e. definately not me)... Until I got to this quote in your post I was going to say this myself. Are you the entreprenuerial type? I agree that this would not be a difficult project for a few people.

I'm not "handy" enough to do this on my own, but would be willing to venture into it with the right people.

In particular, there would be some sewing requiring an industrial strength sewing machine (which, of course, I don't have laying around).

A few years ago, I shared a house with a guy (a "former" friend with whom I've parted ways) who was building a yurt of wood & canvas. He got the directions from a couple of "how to build a yurt" books. The frame was easy enough, but the sewing part was a "bird dog" (as they say in the south).

Last time I heard, he had it up in his backyard as a guest house.

Personally, I didn't much like the frame, made of 1X2's bolted into a scissor arrangement. The frame was very clunking and hard to move.

I'm just wondering if some creative engineering types couldn't figure out a better way. My studio is in a 2500 sq ft warehouse space (with my trailer). When I get some time next spring, maybe I'll look into some ideas for a yurt.

Unless that is, someone comes along to this thread in the mean time and posts a URL to the perfect, futureprimitive technomadic yurt, light weight, bomb proof, for only $1000. :D

Nem

[The_Antibubba]

Some of the yurt photos showe a lattice support structure, like a garden gazebo. What if you could create an accordion-like wall structure, like one of those folding babygates that go across a doorway? You couldn't get a truly round structure, (with enough panels you could close), but an octagon would provide almost as much stability.

I'm not an engineer. I can see it in my head, but it would take a while to explain to you.

[NMshooter]

How about this: http://www.concretecanvas.org.uk/ ?

[Kodiaz]

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread now but if the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI have enough food and water in your house to last 3 to 5 weeks don't leave your house after 3 or so weeks all the people that have been sleeping will be dead of starvation lack of water whatever the criminal element will have been drammatically reduced by them fighting for whatever is in the stores at SHTF time. Depending on the scenario my main one is really bad hurricane after a bunch of really bad hurricanes and the govt doesnt have anything left to restore order here so they tell people to evac north to some kind of camp. anyway though after 3 weeks things will have shaken out. get as far away from cities as possible. And I hate to tell you but completely on your own isn't going to work. I have a cousin who went thru Andrew and is armed and prepared for a bunch of different SHTF scenarios. Also by way of hurricane preparation i have my aunt and her house prepared for the 3 to 5 week shaking out period. Now other people with weapons and a beleif that they may need to bug out aren't easy to find. If you have family where you live then matbe you have some cousins that you are close to that would like to prepare for some extended camping trip or hunting trip where you have them accumulating supplies so when the time comes you aren't solo. If you don't have family or friends nearby you should have enough fuel stored to get you reasonably close to them you can store fuel by by buying a gasoline stabilizer called STABIL it worls my cousin used it to get himself and his mother out of miami after wilma he said his fuel economy was the same for his truck (Toyota sr5) and his moms minivan. Being on your own it wont work the people left after the 3 week wait are going to be either Like Minded Individuals or the smartest and wilyest of the scum of the earth. And LMI are all going to assume if you aren't one of them then you must be a BG.

[entropy]

Dig in! A couple sheets of courrugated tin, some logs from the surrounding area, and a little imagination will get you a decent place to hunker down for a spell, and if done right will keep prying eyes from seeing any encampment.

[BedPimp]

You might want to think about the 10'x20' portable garages from Costco. I can set one up by myself in 90 minutes in the dark, and have lived in one for weeks at a time in the desert dealing with rain, sand storms and 70+ mph winds. You can pick them up for under $200, and with some 3' pieces of rebar, they are rock solid. The biggest issue I've had is when it's really, really windy, it can be drafty inside, but some additional tarps and duct tape could be used to seal up the gaps.

[Tokugawa]

Nem., I think a wall tent is a great idea. I am not so sure, however ,if our rotten infrastucture in Puget Sound is going to allow any sort of four wheel transport out of here. I know they have been tryng to reinforce some of the bridges, etc, but my gut feeling(and I have always been a pessimist) is that the alaskan way viaduct, the west seattle viaduct, most of the hiway over passes and maybe the narrows bridge (s) , together with every brick stucture built before 1960 are going to be in a large heap on the ground, if we get a big quake. They say the 1700 subduction quake was a 9.0. Also the tsunami is going to be a real bitch for waterfront property, the sound is going to act as a big funnel. In Lituya Bay I saw a splash zone 1700 feet high on the side of a mountain. Earthquake caused a mountain to fall into bay and make a big splash. I don't know what you are pulling that trailer with but it would be good to have some ground clearance and manueverability in case the going gets rough.

[rmgill]

Well, you could combine your two vehicles. In its most basic form, an M35 has a 12'x6' bed that takes a rather tough tarp/cover that can have it's sides rolled up (as well as the fronts and backs). GMA cover corp makes them out of an insulated vinyl so they last rather well (chemical agent resistant too) and they have two zip open windows front and back as well. Not super great insulation and no-place for a stove, but it's instant, with the truck and portable. Need more shelter, add in a standard tent of your own preference or go with a rigid shelter on a military trailer or put the shelter on the bed of the truck. I've been looking at an S250 shelter for my Deuce in it's bed or on a trailer. Enough space for sleeping 2, but you'll be making food outdoors, not too hard for light environs. You could add a tent/awning off the sides/back of the shelter. The S280 is larger and fits in the bed of the 2.5 ton truck.

My deuce with the cargo cover
http://www.freakchylde.net/~ryangill/images/M35/M35A2.2.jpg

An S250 shelter
http://ilsc.natick.army.mil/SSS/S250.jpg

An S280
http://ilsc.natick.army.mil/SSS/S280.jpg

[Spiphel Rike]

Ever thought of using a simple tent with a product like a bivi?

http://www.kitbag.com.au/prod574.htm

It'd save some of the need to keep a big tent in your vehicle and would probably be quicker to bug out with.

[Sam]

An M35 is a handy thing to have. Throw on a stripped out 280 shelter and you can do real well for yourself. An old acquaintance built himself a motorhome on one ythat worked beautifully. He was a surveyor and lived in it 6-7 months out of the year. Had a little Honda 90 on the back as a "lifeboat" and to go into town for milk and smokes. The multifuel engine is handy too. It'll even burn used motor oil if suitably thinned. If you every have a choice get an A1C or A2A naturally aspirated model.

If you want an M35 go here:
http://www.boyceequipment.com/

Ocassionally they have them available along with a lot of other military vehicles and equipment. Good folks to do business with. As a GI I even bought stuff back from them when we couldn't get through supply and he warrantied it too, unlike the depot.

Sam

[pete f]

speaking as one who has done the reconstruction after some pretty good sized natural disasters, I would also like to add some thoughts. have you thought about adding some of these to your trailer.?
http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-awnings/cf-add-a-screen-room.htm

I can not find a link for the brand we used but you get the idea. We had a 28 x8 foot construction trailer and we used a pair of these on both it and the motor home tow vehicle. These are made for heavy use (heavy use by a retiree not a soldier) and on ours, lasted for at least five summers of use before we had to relace the fabric on a couple. They would allow for outside strage of tools, bikes, etc and allow for a workshop like environment that would keep the bugs away.


I have seen some pretty cool portable structure being used by some people we know who are pretty much construction nomads. they follow Disasters and have contacts in the insurance industry and know that if they go they will make enough money in a short time to live as they please.
http://www.shelter-systems.com/solor-dome.html
http://www.yurtco.com/products/prd-ord-cdn.html

I have seen some really cool portable Yurts, domes, combos of the two, One structure was just two layers of fiber glass sheet separated by foam. Picture a SIPS panel with cam locks that allow you to just assemble walls in minutes. A real cabin in 2 hours? easy...
http://www.murus.com/t.polyurethane.html This group had three cabins on one 12X8 flat bed trailer, one decent sized diesel generator, and they had window A/C. From when they pulled into the parking lot to when they had 3 livable structures was 6 hours! three guys working. The floors were nested, aluminum blox tubes with Plywood surface, 6 sheets of plywood, 12 foot by 16 foot, with some kind of connector tying them together and making the exterior panels starting point. The walls were 4 foot by 8 foot, that stradled the connectors on the floor and then cam locked together. two panels each cabin had windows in them, and two had doors. There were gable ends that filled in the gaps on the ends and then a cross beam that the roof panels locked into to for the roof. They hung some tarps like parttions inside. I could have lived in one permanently if needed and not felt deprved. it was over a hundred shortly after we arrived and these guys had cool 75* degree bunk spaces. The genset that they used was an Onan and it was less than 2 gallons a day.

On the topic of the military trucks, I know a man who took a used 28 foot box truck and made a very nice Motorhome, race bike hauler for not a lot of money.

Also I have seen uses for new photo Voltaics that would be mobile worthy. http://www.atlantisenergy.org/
http://www.solarseller.com/rv_and_residential_installation_.htm
http://www.talcoelectronics.com/rv-solar-panels/

imagine having usefull refrigeration using cold plate technology that is basically free to use, and does not consume your fuel supplies.

Just some Ideas. I have a 32 foot contruction trailer that has been somewhat thought about as a SHTF place. It has a propane heater (and a bbq grilll on the tongue) and I have a small wood stove that would fit right in. I have the solar panels on my boat that just power a vent fan and a trickle charger. Just need to add a set to the trailer and I could run a fan and lights easy.

[VacuumJockey]

There are two problems with domes: 1) they are difficult to put up. Anything larger than a 12' will take 2-3 people 4-6 hours. The amount of work multiplies exponentially with the size.According to Pacific Domes' own litterature, a 16' dome could be put up by 3 or 4 people in as many hours -- about half that if you have done it before. You can order their free DVD here (http://pacificdomes.com/contact.asp), and get a good idea of how it's constructed.

As you point out, commercial domes can be pricey, but if you're up to it you can construct your own. Check out Earl's page (http://dome.zillabit.com/index.html) -- he built a 16-footer for just under $500!

[Nematocyst]

According to Pacific Domes' own litterature, a 16' dome could be put up by 3 or 4 people in as many hours -- about half that if you have done it before.Two summers ago, I helped put up a 30' Pacific Dome yurt.

It was a nightmare. :eek:

The problem was, the frame segments are of 3 different lengths, but are similar enough in size that, unless clearly marked, it's very easy to put the wrong one in a spot.

The key there is "clearly marked". If I ever own one (not likely for my application), I'd paint the ends of the frames red, blue & yellow (or some such colors) to clearly mark them.

The other problem was the directions, more specifically the "map" of which frame segment goes where. Our copy was worn, and - from my perspective - not particularly easy to read (i.e., beyond being worn, it was not drawn in a way that was maximally intelligible).

Suggestion: if you get one, make several copies of the "map", then laminate them all. And do your self a favor: put it up several times before you really need to. ;)

For my camp needs, where I want to be able to set up and take down quickly with only two, a dome (even a small one) is just too complex, even though I really love them for other uses. If I were going to choose such a structure to live in for an extended period (months or longer), it'd probably be either a dome or a larger yurt.

Nem

[LAK]

My first thought was yurt - but aside from reading about them have never ever seen one standing.

How about a tent extension to the trailer? Something that would have three sides and attach watertight top and be reasonably snug at the sides along one side of the trailer.

The trailer would act as a good windbreak and eliminate having to "commute" between a completely separate shelter in bad weather. Three sides would be lighter than a four sided tent.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[TarpleyG]

That Concrete Canvas set up would be the ticket IMO...too bad it isn't in production and the cost is probably prohibitive. That and once up, it's up for good.

Greg

[Mannlicher]

bottom line is if you have assets, you have a place to stay.

[Nematocyst]

How about a tent extension to the trailer? Something that would have three sides and attach watertight top and be reasonably snug at the sides along one side of the trailer.

The trailer would act as a good windbreak and eliminate having to "commute" between a completely separate shelter in bad weather. Three sides would be lighter than a four sided tent.That's exactly what I've got in mind.

I want it made from heavy canvas similar to a mountaineers tent, but with lots of extra loops for extra tie downs in BIG winds.

I've looked at the 'pre-fab' jobs mentioned earlier, but just don't trust their stability. For example, they don't come with sewn-in loops for adding extra tie downs.

Given what we've got coming our way with climate changes, I want all the tie downs I can get.

Nem

[LAK]

I want it made from heavy canvas similar to a mountaineers tent, but with lots of extra loops for extra tie downs in BIG winds.

I've looked at the 'pre-fab' jobs mentioned earlier, but just don't trust their stability. For example, they don't come with sewn-in loops for adding extra tie downs
Yep; seems we have a similar view on this subject. The factory stuff is quick, pretty and practical when touring - but it isn't going to be very comfortable in a real storm. I have seen many an RV awning ripped right off a trailer or motorhome.

Might be worth taking the heaviest "truck tarp" to be found and heavily reinforce it with some kind of solid sheet metal band that would slot into a mating channel running along the trailer top edge. making it watertight might be tricky, but not insurmountable.

A solid bolt together frame and reinforced guy points and lower anchors would about complete the picture. Being trailer savvy you have probably already nailed some good expedients to stabilize the trailer itself.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Nematocyst]

I have seen many an RV awning ripped right off a trailer or motorhome.One of the five most informative 'survival shelter' experiences I've had in my life
was at a large outdoor festival in NV called 'Burning Man'.

The year was '00.

Being desert rats & mountaineers who've experienced the fiercest (at that time) that mother nature could throw out in the southwest on the open desert and above the treeline, but having survived it (e.g., three days in by foot above 12k'), we designed a trailer 'patio' tarp made of army surplus tarp (16' X 10'); aluminum stays over the small cargo trailer (which offered a ventilating 1' space above the roof in a 100*F summer heat during the day; 3' X 1" steel anchors driven into the playa with a sledge; & rachet straps on both sides to hold the entire rig onto the top of the trailer.

The second day there, after making sure the 'hatches were battened', we sat through the first of three afternoon 'wind storms'.

To visualize this takes some amount of imagination.

Scenario: you're on a dry lake bed (playa) of dry, fine, dusty alkaline dust, measuring approximately 6 mi X 40 mi. It was left over from the end of the last Ice Age when the Great Basin was mostly a large lake. This one, the "Black Rock Desert", was the largest lake.

So, in August & September, in the afternoon, convection (thunder) storms gather in the west. You can see them developing for hours before they hit.

Just before the rain begins - IF the rain begins at all - there are down drafts off the front. Winds clock sustained 70 mph.

I saw dust blowing vertically, and people trying to stop their sun/rain covers from blowing away.

Visibility was 20'.

From my secured trailer, with tarp held on by ratchet straps & long, steel anchors,
which didn't even flap in the wind, much less blow away,
I watched Walmart & Costco {tm} "picnic" shelters get blown into the county to the east of there.

That was in '00.

Before then, 1998 was the hottest year recorded on Earth since record keeping began.

Now, 2005 has exceeded that as hottest year on Earth since record keeping began.

Winds are driven by heat flow down a thermodynamic gradient.

What I saw in '00 was only the beginning.

Buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy.

And make sure you've got extra tie downs on your trailer rig.

Nem

[LAK]

Sounds entertaining! Coming off a winter climb in North Wales many years ago a buddy and I were assaulted by gusting down draughts coming across a small elevated lake. It took us right off our feet and bowled us for along five to ten yards if we weren't crouched and braced or clutching a boulder etc. Although the wind was already gusting strong we usually had some warning as you could see it scoop up water coming across. It would have demolished any but the best and most firmly anchored tents.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[NMshooter]

Living in NM I wear sunglasses to keep the wind and sand out of my eyes.

The windy season gets nasty here.

When in Saudi I found out goggles work much better, especially if you have a scarf or something to wrap around the rest of your face, especially the mouth and nose. Sandstorms like you would not believe, far worse than NM.

I would want to be behind something big, or dug in. Any tarps or tents would have to be really tied down, or secured to something not going anywhere, like a truck or van. Might have to take down a shelter rather than risk getting it shredded by high winds.

Low profile helps, and pointing the slope of the tent into the wind instead of the ends. An extra, heavy duty tarp placed over a tent as a wind break might help if you can tie it down well enough. You might consider a seperate large tarp to use for this in areas without natural wind breaks.

When the wind is blowing hard enough to rock my truck on its suspension I am glad I live indoors...;)

[Nematocyst]

I would want to be behind something big, or dug in. Any tarps or tents would have to be really tied down, or secured to something not going anywhere, like a truck or van.Shooter, In open country (e.g., desert, grassland, or an opening in the forest), I want my tent addition both secured to something big (trailer) AND really tied down to anchors planted deep.

And you're right, of course, about orienting the shelter so that the low edge is into prevailing winds.

LAK is also right about the use of heavy trucker's tarp.

On my trailer, currently (prototype), I use a section of truckers tarp (the kind you see on flatbed rigs) as the "roof of the "addition". The stuff is indestructible. INDESTRUCTABLE.

The sides can be canvas, or even nylon. But the top is going to be trucker's tarp.

Nem