Man pulls a sword on a fellow driver.


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zookrider
October 25, 2005, 04:12 AM
From Court TV.com
(http://www.courttv.com/people/scm/051205_ctv.html)
Man accused of confronting irritated driver with sword

Charles O'Neill may be a slow driver, but he was quick to defend his driving skills against another irritated driver on May 1.

The New Hampshire man was allegedly driving slowly on a highway when another driver honked at him and pulled in front of his vehicle, according to Lieutenant Andrew Lavoie of the Nashua Police Department.

When the second driver stopped at a red light, O'Neill pulled alongside him and exited his vehicle. The two men exchanged words, and O'Neill allegedly returned to his vehicle, retrieved a sheath, and then pulled out a sword with a three-foot-long blade.

He then told the other driver, "I ought to run you through with this."

Lavoie said the other driver retreated from O'Neill, who punctured one of the man's tires before driving away. The second man took down O'Neill's license plate number and contacted police.

Police located O'Neill, who was charged with criminal threatening and mischief. He was released on $2000 bail and will be arraigned at a later date.

O'neill: "I ought to run you through with this."
THR Member's Reply: "I see your sword and raise you 8 rounds of 45 ACP, your move slick.":cool:

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Moonclip
October 25, 2005, 04:24 AM
Nothing wrong with a sword, my dad has been known to keep one in the car too! At close range with a sword, 8 rounds of 45acp may not be enough to keep you from being "run through".

I'd much rather have a large knife or sword or hatchet than like a 22lr or 25acp pocket pistol.

zookrider
October 25, 2005, 04:54 AM
At close range with a sword, 8 rounds of 45acp may not be enough to keep you from being "run through".

Factor in some agility and you should be fine. Also, it is my belief that only a truly insane swordsman would not back down when he found himself staring down the business end of a 1911 (assuming that you drew the instant you realized he had the sword as I would). As far as I'm concerned one step toward me with sword in hand is justification to open fire so him getting within "close range" wouldn't happen, pretty sure the law agrees with me too (at least in Texas).

Janitor
October 25, 2005, 06:05 AM
As far as I'm concerned one step toward me with sword in hand is justification to open fire so him getting within "close range" wouldn't happen, pretty sure the law agrees with me too (at least in Texas).
I'm fairly sure it's the same in Minnesota too.

I'd probably not be worried about who the law agrees with though, if somebody were coming at me with a three foot knife. :eek:

Matthew748
October 25, 2005, 06:37 AM
Charles better be careful. Remember that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where that guy tries all those fancy sword moves on Indy in the alley?

Smuggs
October 25, 2005, 07:46 AM
Charles better be careful. Remember that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where that guy tries all those fancy sword moves on Indy in the alley?
And if that guy had taken that first flurry of moves on real cuts the pistol would not have goten out of the flap top holser. Haven casualy studied several sword forms at that range a bare blade is exeptionaly dangerous. Would i trade a .45 for a sword? No I own both :neener: but I won't be downplaying the threat of one either.

Geno
October 25, 2005, 08:02 AM
Ditto. In the hands of a trained expert, ANY weapon is just that, regardless of blade, stick or firearm.

I can say with all confidence that, given this man's actions, he was no "expert" per his lack of self-control. In the first place, any martial artist whose skills are worth anything will NEVER, and I mean NEVER disclose those facts before the first strike, and then it's too late.

You NEVER telegraph your MA knowledge thereby allowing the BG to pull any form of weapon. By the way, your best bet is to possess both...MA skills and firearms skills.

Just my two cents.

Doc2005

bogie
October 25, 2005, 08:31 AM
Anyone remember that pawnbroker down in Florida, who turned down a wannabe ninja on a sale, and the fellow came back, with sword, and proceeded to try to slice and dice him? He got cut pretty bad, including a complete through/through, but he stuck a few .25s in the guy's head (after he'd retreated past several loaded guns that he just forgot about...).

yorick
October 25, 2005, 11:35 AM
It was a guy who posted as "flimflam' on rec.guns

Link to his telling of the story here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/cec050861934e23b?q=sword+pawn+flimflam&hl=en&

Lupinus
October 25, 2005, 11:37 AM
QUICK!!!!

Call the trial lawyers lets all sue the swordsmith!

:rolleyes:

boofus
October 25, 2005, 11:39 AM
I think the guy inside the car with the .45 wins hands down. All he has to do is lower the window 1" or shoot the bastage through the window.

The guy outside with the sharp stick has to break the window to get at the guy inside the car.

Missashot
October 25, 2005, 11:53 AM
One should never bring a knife to a gun fight. :what:

Third_Rail
October 25, 2005, 11:55 AM
Even in MA, if someone charges you with a sword you're ok to draw and fire.

Chrontius
October 25, 2005, 03:20 PM
One should never bring a knife to a gun fight. :what:

+1 Funny :D

boofus
October 25, 2005, 03:24 PM
Never bring a gun to a food fight.

Gump
October 25, 2005, 03:57 PM
Wait, let me get this straight.

Guy takes out sword, threatens someone with it then proceeds to Nijacize the other guys car........then has the brilliant idea to call the cops and gets arrested :confused: "I'll take 'Going to Jail for $2000, Alex'"



Triple Stupid

benEzra
October 25, 2005, 05:58 PM
I think the other guy is the one who called police, after getting Ninja's tag number.

Standing Wolf
October 25, 2005, 06:08 PM
I ought to run you through with this.

Talk's cheap. Bail may not be.

stevelyn
October 25, 2005, 06:39 PM
I'm fairly sure it's the same in Minnesota too.

I'd probably not be worried about who the law agrees with though, if somebody were coming at me with a three foot knife. :eek:

Anyone with a blade within 21 feet of you is a threat. It is demostrable and proven. I would imagine they would be even more so the longer the blade because they can damage you from farther than arms length.
If that person starts running toward you, you might have 1.5 seconds to draw, get the front sight on COM and fire before they make contact.

zookrider
October 25, 2005, 10:53 PM
Anyone with a blade within 21 feet of you is a threat. It is demostrable and proven. I would imagine they would be even more so the longer the blade because they can damage you from farther than arms length.
If that person starts running toward you, you might have 1.5 seconds to draw, get the front sight on COM and fire before they make contact.

I'm not waiting for him to advance to draw, I'm drawing as soon as I realize he is armed. I'll open fire when he starts to advance.

stevelyn
October 26, 2005, 12:01 AM
zook,

That's my point. The above is basic level doctrine taught at the academy. When they whine about the times being too fast for qualification they're reminded of this rule.
If you wait for him to move before drawing, you're reacting and will at the very least have some cool scars to show off.

rudolf
October 26, 2005, 04:59 PM
A guy with a sword who knows how to use it can do a quick disarm while you draw the gun. And with disarm, I mean exactly what the word says.:evil:

orangeninja
October 26, 2005, 05:06 PM
Yeah...about that 21 foot rule...if you practice that, when you are "aware" of the suspect and practiced in a draw, you will be able to draw and fire ONE TIME before being cut/stabbed/both. The 21 foot rule assumes the first shot will stop the attack....I assume nothing. Incidentally we were trained for 30ft....if they close under 30 feet...start shooting baby.

R.H. Lee
October 26, 2005, 05:27 PM
The second man took down O'Neill's license plate number and contacted police.
"Mommy mommy I started a fight I can't finish. Help me mommy" :rolleyes:

Rufus Pisanus
October 26, 2005, 11:42 PM
A guy with a sword who knows how to use it can do a quick disarm while you draw the gun. And with disarm, I mean exactly what the word says.:evil:

I guess distance and surprise must play a role...at 200 yds with my scoped Springfield 1903A4 I'd take on Mihamoto Musashi...
:D

Missashot
October 27, 2005, 10:37 AM
Never bring a gun to a food fight.
How about a potato gun? :D

Slinger
October 27, 2005, 10:26 PM
Everyone knows a steak knife is a much better CCW than a sword! :p

rudolf
October 28, 2005, 10:35 PM
I guess distance and surprise must play a role...at 200 yds with my scoped Springfield 1903A4 I'd take on Mihamoto Musashi...
:D

Just to have him jump from a tree and decapitate you.:evil:

He once slept in a tree before a fight. He could then watch his enemy setting up a trap for him. Didn,t work very well for his enemy.

Hawkmoon
October 29, 2005, 12:55 AM
zook,

That's my point. The above is basic level doctrine taught at the academy. When they whine about the times being too fast for qualification they're reminded of this rule.
If you wait for him to move before drawing, you're reacting and will at the very least have some cool scars to show off.
If that's what your academy is teaching ... they're teaching it wrong (or perhaps incompletely).

The 21 feet "rule" is not a rule, it WAS a rule of thumb. You are referring to the Tueller Drill. The origin goes back a good many years. Tueller was an instructor for a department in (IIRC) Utah, and he was looking for a way to convey to rookies what experienced street cops develop as a kind of sixth sense: when does a potential adversary become a "threat"?

The starting point was to ask a number of his colleagues to draw from the duty holsters they wore at the time. The average time was 1.5 seconds. Tueller then went on to have a number of officers armed with dummy knives start from a standing position and from various distances try to get to an officer before the officer could draw and fire.

The final result was that a BG could cover 21 feet in the 1.5 seconds it took to draw and fire. The ONLY thing this was intended to demonstrate was that 21 feet (basically one car-length at the time, but about 1-1/2 car lengths for most of today's compacts) is not a safe distance when facing an armed opponent, so at that distance don't stand there with your piece in the holster. Take it out and hold it at low ready.

That was all before the advent of level 3 retention holsters. Most uniformed officers today cannot draw and fire in 1.5 seconds. Therefore, the 21 feet goes out the window. The distance today would be even greater. Lt. (or probably Capt. by now) Tueller knows this, and is updating the drill accordingly.

The other thing to keep firmly in mind is that this drill was intended to apply only to uniformed officers drawing from a duty holster. Undercover officers and "civilians" may be able to draw from certain rigs faster than 1.5 seconds, but more likely would need more time. For them, then, the 21 feet is also not an adequate safety buffer, because the 21 feet derives from the 1.5-second draw time.

Basically, that 21 feet keeps getting cited as though there's something magickal about it. It WAS a rule of thumb only, not a hard and fast law ... and it's currently outmoded. I wish people would stop citing it as though it means something.

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