[gunfan]

It is a simple matter of consistent (read: repeated) training and "trigger control" through "muscle motor memory."

Take either a small to medium-bore autoloader and/or revolver. and learn to draw, as well as shoot regularly, placing your shots within a 3-4" circle at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)

Bullet placement is obviously the prime directive when it comes to saving one's own life, and the lives of others. Power is wonderful, but proper placment of the projectiles used for such a purpose is everything!

This is why I will not hesitate to use a .32 S&W Long, .32 Auto, .380 ACP, .38 S&W Special and higher. just as long as I can place them where I want them!

IMHO, this is the type of training that civilians need to defend themselves and others. No one gives a damn if "mine is bigger than yours" if you can't strike the objective and terminate the threat.

Scott

[Boss Spearman]

I concur. I was placing my shots this past weekend, shooting at 15 feet, and this guy came up behind me and started informing me my practice was being wasted, as all FBI reports say anything under 21 feet results in the attacker winning against the defender (me) 100% of the time. 100%!

Well, my NRA instructor told us when we took the self defense class that the greater percentage of self defense incidents occur at 15 feet and less, and we should practice at that distance. I think I'll take his word over a visitor to the range.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.

[jehu]

While shot placement is good to practice I think that in a real world gun fight excitement,mental anguish,adrenaline,and movement for defensive purpose would make concentrated shot placement difficult at best. Speedy accurate point shooting is a better exercise IMO. As for caliber size dose make a difference.:rolleyes:

[TexasRifleman]

at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)


Consider reading up on the Tueller Drill and then raise that number to at least 21 feet.

[BHPshooter]

I agree to an extent: I believe a person should start out by getting their skills up at about 3 yards, then 7, then 10, and perhaps further.

The person saying that you have "lost 100% of the time under 21 feet," is somewhat mistakenly referring to the Tueller Drill. Even at 21 feet (7 yards), you still have a chance, although I would say it's about 50/50.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.

Ha! Do you ever notice how people will say that you are well armed with a .38 Special, but that you shouldn't bother with those pathetic 9mms? :rolleyes: Personally, knowing that I have my Hi Power with 14 rounds of 9mm on tap makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

Wes

[Kramer Krazy]

.....placing your shots within a 3-4" circle at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)

I usually practise at 15 yards, mainly because it is more comfortable for me, and because I feel that shorter distances will be "easier". If I want to do some very rapid, pointing/not aiming, defensive shooting at a B-27 target, I like to bring it in to 7-10 yards. Depending on my mood and the gun, I can blister the cr*p out of a B-27 "X" ring or head as fast as I can pull the trigger.....as you said, it takes practise.

I also like to practise quickly aimed shots at 15 yards (sometimes 25) and have my wife do it for one reason.....a rash of car-jackings the last year or two, with several in this area, recently. You add in a 10-month old strapped to a car seat, a handicapped wife, and a new car, and you never know when you may have to do a headshot to save the kid. It will probably never happen as long as our guard is always up and don't put ourselves in a situation where this may happen, but, it's always nice to know that you have the training to handle this.

What really irks me is the number of people with concealment permits who haven't shot their gun in over a year. A buddy of mine hadn't shot his gun in three years when I got him to go to the range with the wife and me last year. He hasn't fired the gun since, either.

[pcf]

Who needs to worry about shot placement. Trigger control, Sight picture, and breath control are so 1950.

Modern gun fights are won with tactical controlled expansion hollow points, tactical laser sights, tactical controlled pairs, tactical light rails, tactical double taps, tactical movement, tactical night sights, and tactical reloads.:rolleyes:

The average shooter that I encounter cannot consistently put 10rds in a 12" circle at 15'. Why bother trying to improve, when there are so "expert-approved" panaceas to poor shooting. Every expert knows that standing in front of a B27 at the range developing, practicing, and maintaining the fundamentals of shooting will get you killed.:barf:

Self defense isn't hunting season. You don't get to pass because your not comfortable with the shot.

[pax]

Accurate doesn't matter if you can't do it fast.

Fast doesn't matter if you can't do it accurately.

Neither matters if you got shot too, so being fast and accurate on the move is necessary. Preferably moving toward cover or at least concealment.

Oh, and can you consistently hit a moving target? Attackers rarely stand still...

(Simulpost with pcf, so edited to add pcf is utterly correct that the basics have to be practiced! You can't do fast & accurate on the move, while your target is moving too, unless you have mastered the basics.)

pax

[halvey]

My carry training and subsequent training was in point shooting. I'm not sure if I totally buy it.

BTW, if you look closely, most "point shooting" is coarsely aimed fire.

[Double Naught Spy]

gunfan, that has to be one of the most naive posts on self defense shooting that I have ever read.

The notion that a shooting at more than 10-15 ft is questionable for self defense is blatantly false. Where did you learn this information? Do lethal threats cease to be a threat to you if they are 15 feet away or more? Of course not.

FYI, shot placement doesn't mean crap without penetration. Some of your smaller calibers that you can shoot well are not exactly known as great penetrators or great damagers of soft tissue.

The type of training you think civilians need to defend themselves, if followed, will be the type of training that results in a lot of civilians getting killed by the bad guys because apparently they thought they would be protected by their guns while standing out in the open and trying to shoot bad guys. I got news for you, guns and ammo make form pitiful armor or cover. Why do you think the cops and military wear body armor? It is because shooting at the enemy doesn't stop the incoming rounds.

So as you stand there, out in the open, placing all your shots from a puny caliber in the center of some bad guy's chest, keep in mind that the puny caliber likely won't provide an instant stop and so the bad guy will return fire and potentially hit you. You may manage to stop the bad guy with your great shot placement, but that won't mean squat if you end up dead as well.

Contrary to your decree, bullet placement isn't the prime directive when it comes to saving one's life or the live's of loved ones. The prime directive is to not get injured or killed. Things like, flight, armor, cover, and distance from your threat call all help reduce the possibility of your threat being successful in putting you down, but you apparently don't have any need for these sorts of things.

[gunfan]

I can shoot my 10mm Auto with full-power loads quite well, thank you. My Glock 20 with stout loads is performing "nightstand duty" as we speak.

I still feel that bullet placement is the prime directive. If you can't place the bullet on the target in the proper place, all the power in the world will not help you. "A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .45." Poor marksmanship will definitely get you killed. No doubt about it!

Practice, practice, practice.

Scott

[pax]

FYI, shot placement doesn't mean crap without penetration.
True.

And penetration doesn't mean crap without shot placement.

And neither penetration nor shot placement means a dang thing if you can't get the hits out there fast enough to stop him before he puts a hole in you.

Lotsa ways to lose a gunfight.

pax

[El Tejon]

Everything is something, nothing is everything.:D

I've had .25s, .32s and .38s all bounce off people's noggins in real fights. In training I have seen .223s bounce off the brims of baseball cap brims.

Beware the GSCs who tell you this or that is "all you need.":uhoh: What is really needed is not to get into a fight.:)

[dxkj21]

I concur. I was placing my shots this past weekend, shooting at 15 feet, and this guy came up behind me and started informing me my practice was being wasted, as all FBI reports say anything under 21 feet results in the attacker winning against the defender (me) 100% of the time. 100%!

Well, my NRA instructor told us when we took the self defense class that the greater percentage of self defense incidents occur at 15 feet and less, and we should practice at that distance. I think I'll take his word over a visitor to the range.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.


Especially with all 15-20 of them (depending on gun/mag)

[Frandy]

Deleted...3rdpig said it so much better. :D

[3rdpig]

Well apparently we all have differing opinions of what's most important in a gunfight. Here's mine.

1. Avoid getting into a gunfight. Stay alert, back off, dive under something, run like the dickens, do whatever's necessary to remove yourself from the vicinity.
2. Once in a gunfight avoid making a good target out of yourself, use cover, distance, movement, anything to make yourself hard to hit.
3. Shoot, if necessary, from behind cover or when moving, accuratly, quickly and with a reasonably powerful caliber.
4. Don't stop shooting until the threat is gone.
5. Scan for other threats.
6. Call Police to make report.
7. If you've survived this far try to learn better how to avoid the fight in the first place.

Of course if you're standing 10 feet from your opponent, in open ground with no cover, then your only hope might be to outdraw them and stop them before they can get off a shot. Or hope they're an awful shot. At very close range I might be more inclined to engage them physically before engaging in a gunfight. Chances are there would only be losers at that distance once guns are drawn. If I could physically engage I might prevent a shot from being fired, or at least prevent it from being fired at me. Tough choice.

[TheEgg]

You can do absolutely everything right, and still die.

[Boss Spearman]

If you practice enough to place your shots where you need to under stressful conditions, caliber does not make any difference, at least not from .38 special, 9mm on up.

I've yet to find someone who thinks anything under a .45 is a non-stopper that is willing to step in front of a 9mm and let the rounds come at them.

The fact is a handgun in general is a somewhat poor man-stopper, no matter what the caliber.

[Custard]

1. Avoid getting into a gunfight. Stay alert, back off, dive under something, run like the dickens, do whatever's necessary to remove yourself from the vicinity.

It's nice to see someone else say that. For me the question "What would you bring to a gunfight?" always produced a cognitinve dissonance. Why the heck would anyone go to a gunfight? When I was a cop my answer was generally "The SWAT team?" but now that I don't have to go I don't plan on going.

Someone else can play macho. I proved myself more than enough in genuine life and death situations. I don't need to do it again.

Now if you get stuck at a gunfight... Then what pax said.

Dan

[gunfan]

Running away is a good idea, so is locating a place of defensible cover. The ability to place your shots well can cover 'a multitude of shortcomings.'

Ther are MANY important factors in a 'self-defense' situation. The ability to shoot well may not keep you from being killed, but the lack thereof, will definitely but you at a higher risk of either death, or grievous bodily injury.

Scott

[KONY]

... always produced a cognitinve dissonance ...


Yikes! That psychological jargon is hard to shake-off, huh?! :neener:

[mattdus]

I agree that the best thing to do is get the heck out of there. People need to practice. most of the time if someone draws a weapon on you it will be from 10 feet or less and the fact is that by the time you can get your weapon drawn that distance will likely be down to 3 or 4 feet. If you cant clear your holster and place shots quickly your done, all the more reason to practice until your up to speed and continue to practice to maintain that speed. If you can consistently place your shots close to center mass at 15 yards on the range then you can do fine at close range. However I still strongly recommend you get out of the area instead if possible.

[Cosmoline]

I've moved away from bullseye and accuracy shooting with handguns over the past few years. These days I do what I call "slam drills" with my SP101, just blasting out five after five after five using speed loaders and shooting double action. I do it until it seems second nature. I get a soild five inch group at ten yards, and after awhile there's just a large hole in the target. I concentrate on firing as fast as possible while still keeping it aimed. If I need to use the little revolver for defense, I'm going to need to use it FAST and dump all five into the other guy. I'm not going to count on a one aimed shot stop with any handgun this side of a Casull.

[Jamie C.]

It is a simple matter of consistent (read: repeated) training and "trigger control" through "muscle motor memory."


Yep, it is.... Right up until you have to deal with a target that shoots back..... or one that could land you in prision for hitting.

The human mind is a strange thing, and it reacts quite differently to non-life threatening situations than it does the other kind.

So, punching paper at 15 feet is a whole 'nother animal than shooting at another human being.... especially with all the crap that goes through your mind when your life is in danger.

Any way, it's just far more complicated than simply pulling a trigger and keeping the sights lined up. *shrug*


J.C.

[Ichiro]

I've moved away from bullseye and accuracy shooting with handguns over the past few years. These days I do what I call "slam drills" with my SP101, just blasting out five after five after five using speed loaders and shooting double action. I do it until it seems second nature. I get a soild five inch group at ten yards, and after awhile there's just a large hole in the target. I concentrate on firing as fast as possible while still keeping it aimed. If I need to use the little revolver for defense, I'm going to need to use it FAST and dump all five into the other guy. I'm not going to count on a one aimed shot stop with any handgun this side of a Casull.

Interesting, I practice very similarly at the range with my SP-101 without use of the sights. What type of ammo do you use with this drill?

~Ichiro

[pax]

Any way, it's just far more complicated than simply pulling a trigger and keeping the sights lined up. *shrug*
Well, yes.

But if you* can't even do that much, what makes you think you'll be able to do all the other more complicated more difficult stuff when your life is in danger?

It all starts with good marksmanship.

pax

* Note: that's a generic "you," not a personal "you."

[fastbolt]

Why can't people place their shots?

Why can't people not do stupid things?

Why can't people not infringe on the religious and/or spiritual beliefs of others, or the lack thereof?

Why can't people use common sense?

Many of life's simple questions often go without answers ...

[Cosmoline]

Interesting, I practice very similarly at the range with my SP-101 without use of the sights. What type of ammo do you use with this drill?

~Ichiro

I prefer the mid-weight magnums. Fiocchi makes some 142 grain truncated cone that kicks the same as 158 grains and runs very clean. They're about a buck or two more than the .38 special bricks. I find if I shoot too much .38 Special the gunk starts to build up slowing down the loading of magnums.

[Fat_46]

An interesting excercise to try is the following:
Find your target heart rate for cardio excercising. Do jumping jacks at the range until you get the heart rate at the target. Now, SAFELY draw and fire 5 rounds (even for those of you with hi-cap mags) at a target 7.5 yards away.

MOST people will see a dramatic (and bad) change in their accuracy...and thats just with a fast heart and respiration rate, with no adrenaline in your system.

Results poorer than acceptable? Practice this drill until you feel comfortable with your accuraccy...then move the target back and start over again.

YMMV...good luck

[280PLUS]

I've done a few of those. I understand they are more related to someone running at you with a knife, club or any other hand held weapon you like. Not a firearm. We have a runner at the firing line facing backward. The idea is to draw and fire accurately before he (or she) can run a measured out 21 feet the other way. It is VERY hard to beat the runner and takes practice. Even so those that do beat the runner only do so by a split second or so. By this time the runner is pretty much in your face and IMHO even if you DO manage to shoot him his momentum will carry him forward into you. Personally, if someone was running at me, I hope I'd be thinking clearly enough to sidestep as I'm trying to get some shots off. Let them commit to your present location and then quickly change that location at the last possible second. If you're real smart you try to trip them as they pass by. Of course you NEVER know how smart you're going to be until you are in such a situation. It's ok to have a plan though.

Here's a suggestion. Take some form of martial art where contact is allowed. It will teach you how to keep your cool when under attack. Boxing is best IMHO. Of course learning to pick your feet up doesn't hurt either. (read using them to fight not run)

[Ankeny]

gunfan, that has to be one of the most naive posts on self defense shooting that I have ever read.


How do I get the Pepsi off of my keyboard before the keys stick? :p

[HSMITH]

I just hope to the All Powerful that it isn't a reasonably skilled competitive action pistol shooter that decides I am the problem. There are some guys out there that really know how to shoot, and we can thank God himself that they are on our side.


Most people, gun people or not, can't shoot worth beans. There is that odd duck out there that will ventilate the average guy well before he knows anyone is shooting him.

[280PLUS]

There are some guys out there that really know how to shootYes there are! Unfortunately you can't be so sure they're all on our side.

Just a couple more things on the Tuellers. There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time. When first practicing accuracy comes first. Once you get the accuracy down, THE SPEED WILL COME!! I've had that hollered in my ear a few times now, I thought I'd give you guys a turn... :p

The target for our Tuellers is set up at point blank btw because apparently that's where your target will be when you start shooting.

[TexasRifleman]

The target for our Tuellers is set up at point blank btw because apparently that's where your target will be when you start shooting.

Have you ever had someone demonstrate it? Reading it is one thing, but seeing someone close on your position that fast is eye opening, and scary.

If they start at 21 feet and attack, point blank is exactly where they will be by the time you react. It truly shook me up when it was demonstated to me.

Now the thinkers that be on this stuff are suggesting that even 21feet is too close. Some are saying now maybe even 30 feet is not outside reasonable
thinking.

Everyone should understand the Tueller thing in case you're in court for a self defense shooting. If you shoot someone 20 feet away, the DA will go crazy on you, but Tueller has been used so many times that it can be the difference in making your self defense argument or not. Oh, and you need to be able to prove that you know the details of the Teuller drill ahead of time, not learned after the fact.

The legal people recommend that you write up all of the self defense facts that you are aware of, seal that in an envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep this unopened, postmarked envelope in a safe. With that you can prove in court that you were aware of the self defense laws, especially Tueller, ahead of time.

If you ever take the LFI courses, they have you seal all your class notes in an envelope and mail it to you for just that purpose.

Be safe.

[280PLUS]

Have you ever had someone demonstrate it? Reading it is one thing, but seeing someone close on your position that fast is eye opening, and scary. I don't recall us doing that. Just not being able to draw and fire fast enough to beat the runner was eye opening and scary for me. Best I can do is a tie and that's on a good day, sometimes I'm a full second or so behind but it's usually because I'm fumbling with the safety on my Hi Power . Not nearly good enough but I'm getting better. That's when I started thinking about sidestepping, cause a gun ain't gonna work. 30 ft does not seem unreasonable to me. We should try that next time we practice.

The legal people recommend that you write up all of the self defense facts that you are aware of, seal that in an envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep this unopened, postmarked envelope in a safe. With that you can prove in court that you were aware of the self defense laws, especially Tueller, ahead of time. Mighty good advice, thanks! Having it notarized might not be a bad idea either.

[f4t9r]

I like to think Im ready for a gun fight and talk big , but really I would be happy to say I have never been in one and would like to keep it that way!

[Ankeny]

There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time.

Doesn't that kind of depend on the shooter's ability level and the conditions set forth? On a square range, in a controlled environment, open carry with something like a Blade Tech, there are a lot of folks who are pretty speedy. In the real world, better have some hand and/or feet combatives in combination with movemen,t and the shot will probably be at contact distance.
I like to think Im ready for a gun fight and talk big , but really I would be happy to say I have never been in one and would like to keep it that way!

Me too!

[Jamie C.]

Well, yes.

But if you* can't even do that much, what makes you think you'll be able to do all the other more complicated more difficult stuff when your life is in danger?

It all starts with good marksmanship.

pax

* Note: that's a generic "you," not a personal "you."


I think you missed my point... Or maybe I just didn't present it very well. :(

I know people that can out-shoot me without even working at it, out on the range. But when they get put in a stressful situation, they simply can't keep their composure well enough to hit anything. Because of the "adrenaline dump", and how they physically react to it, they literally don't have the muscle control to do what needs doing. So all the hours they put in practicing are really of no use to 'em at all.

( Anybody know somebody that's a good shot, but particularly susceptible to "Buck Fever"? How do you think they'd fare in a life or death situation, with an armed attacker? )

So, where shooting practice may be important, in some respects it's meaningless. And I'd much rather have to deal with a person that shoots a lot, but falls apart under stress than I had someone who isn't so good with a gun, but is cool-headed enough to calmly keep trying until they hit what they're shooting at.


J.C.

[obviousman]

When going in harm's way, do as I do, just wear a 12 gauge (legal 18"bbl, 27" overall) on a support sling under a duster. I can deploy it real fast, don't need to aim much and with 00 buck is a real "One-shot stop" out to 30, 40 yards.

[pcf]

So, where shooting practice may be important, in some respects it's meaningless. And I'd much rather have to deal with a person that shoots a lot, but falls apart under stress than I had someone who isn't so good with a gun, but is cool-headed enough to calmly keep trying until they hit what they're shooting at.

Taking this slightly out of context.....
I still get the "jitters" when I hunt, get them just as bad as when i was seven. I have friend that refuses to practice shooting trap or skeet before hunting season. "Clay targets ain't nothing like ducks." He doesn't get the "jitters", five years ago I missed alot more than he did. Now, I hunt with Hevishot and don't feel like I'm wasting money (and miss a LOT less than he does). Am I perfect, NO. Good, NO. But my skills have improved, practice and confidence in my ability to shoot has made shooting "under pressure" much easier.

A cool head will not gain one magical skills under pressure, it only means they have a cool head. Not having a cool head means one's skills detoriate under pressure. (Or so we are told) I know what I'll chose, given the choice between inability and detoriated ability.

[Cosmoline]

Obviously you can't go around practicing on real people! So other than making the range experience fast and somewhat stressful, what can you do? My suggestion would be small game hunting with your carry piece. If you can nail a squirrel bunny running on the ground with your CCW handgun, hitting a target 100 times larger should not pose any difficulty. Plus, the three dimensions of the hunting experience and the random nature of small game encounters mirror real life. Though of course most squirrels aren't shooting at you :D

[gunfan]

"It all starts with good marksmanship."

The prosecution... rests!

Scott

[Gordon Fink]

[S]ometimes I’m a full second or so behind but it’s usually because I’m fumbling with the safety on my Hi Power.…

Very interesting. I wonder if this issue has been studied in any controlled way.…

~G. Fink

[Jamie C.]

....A cool head will not gain one magical skills under pressure...

This is quite true. However, many times it doesn't take much more than a simple or basic action to survive a lethal confrontation.

Think about it.... how much "magical skill" does it really take to hit a man-sized target at 6 feet or less, especially if you have 15 "tries" in the gun? Yet many times, "trained" people empty their guns and don't hit anything, at this kind of distance. ( I've seen at least a few videos of this happening. )

Then there's the accounts of the little old lady who center-punches the burglar/rapist with her dead husband's old .38 that hasn't been fired in 20 years....

Sorry, but to me, stuff like that just proves that what's going on between your ears at the time is far more important than how many hours you've spent practicing at the range. Sure, you may have built up the "muscle memory" to do the job, but if psychological or physiological reactions cancel those out, then they might as well never have been there at all.


J.C.

[280PLUS]

Very interesting. I wonder if this issue has been studied in any controlled way.…

~G. Fink

How do you mean?

Then: FYI When I say "keep a cool head" I mean don't panic. Just go about your business as you normally would. If you've practiced reflex will take over.

Quote:
There is no time to put both hands on the gun and aim. The shots have to come one handed from retention or the hip to be in time.


Doesn't that kind of depend on the shooter's ability level and the conditions set forth? It has been my experience, which is minimal, that if you take the time from concealed carry to place both hands on the gun, extend it forward and take aim most people will NOT beat the runner. The main problem I was having, and may still have, is firing from retention. I was (or still am) too used to both hands, extend, aim and fire and that's what I do reflexively. I've had to retrain to fire one handed from retention.

[pax]

Jamie ~

I follow you now ... but I still disagree.

Good shooters sometimes fall apart and shoot badly under stress.

But a bad shooter doesn't suddenly learn how to shoot, just because someone's shooting at him.

As I said before, there are lots of ways to lose a gunfight. You could be a poor shot, unable to hit the target under even optimal circumstances. You could be a good shot, but slow. You could be a fast, good shot, but get stressed out and shoot wildly. You could stand there and not move. You could move but be unable to shoot while moving. You could think concealment was cover and get shot right through your hiding spot. You could ...

Well, you could do a lot of things to get yourself killed. But not one of those things is improved by being a poor shooter to begin with. It has to start with marksmanship.

pax

I've interviewed a lot of people after gunfights, both police and private citizens. Not one has ever said to me, "You know, I wish I hadn't shot quite so well." -- Tom Givens

[pcf]

Think about it.... how much "magical skill" does it really take to hit a man-sized target at 6 feet or less, especially if you have 15 "tries" in the gun? Yet many times, "trained" people empty their guns and don't hit anything, at this kind of distance. ( I've seen at least a few videos of this happening. )

Been to an shooting range lately? For many it's easier to hit the ceiling than the target. If one can't hit a target to begin with, who cares how well they do under pressure.

Sorry, but to me, stuff like that just proves that what's going on between your ears at the time is far more important than how many hours you've spent practicing at the range. Sure, you may have built up the "muscle memory" to do the job, but if psychological or physiological reactions cancel those out, then they might as well never have been there at all.

Couldn't agree with you more, apologies for being unclear earlier. Mindset far outways training or equipment. However, your implication that training can be pointless because proper mindset will be the overriding factor is fallacious.

Soldiers and Marines train constantly to deal with a variety of situations and problems faced on the battlefield. Mindset becomes a product of training. One can be cool as a cucumber but when faced with bracketing mortars, does he know to find cover and move perpendicular to incoming rounds?

One is quite meaningless without the other.

[Gordon Fink]

How do you mean?

I’m thinking of an experiment, like the drill you described, but comparing shooters using manual safeties to those who aren’t. Under stress, which group of shooters will perform better, if there is any difference at all. This would assume equal levels of training and familiarity with the chosen handgun for each shooter, of course.

I don’t know if a formal test of this kind has ever been done.

~G. Fink

[Jamie C.]

Jamie ~

I follow you now ... but I still disagree.

Good shooters sometimes fall apart and shoot badly under stress.

But a bad shooter doesn't suddenly learn how to shoot, just because someone's shooting at him.

As I said before, there are lots of ways to lose a gunfight. You could be a poor shot, unable to hit the target under even optimal circumstances. You could be a good shot, but slow. You could be a fast, good shot, but get stressed out and shoot wildly. You could stand there and not move. You could move but be unable to shoot while moving. You could think concealment was cover and get shot right through your hiding spot. You could ...

Well, you could do a lot of things to get yourself killed. But not one of those things is improved by being a poor shooter to begin with. It has to start with marksmanship.

pax

I've interviewed a lot of people after gunfights, both police and private citizens. Not one has ever said to me, "You know, I wish I hadn't shot quite so well." -- Tom Givens


Pax... tell me how you're really disagreeing with what I said initially, concerning people not being able to "place their shots"?

I never said a cool head and a calm hand gained any specific skill. I simply pointed out that there's more to staying alive in a shoot-out than being able to punch the bull's eye at will.

I do maintain that a being able to "keep your head" may allow one to use any natural aptitude that may exist...or even plain common sense, if no other specific training has been had. It also will probably give "Lady Luck" a bit of a helping hand. In other words, thinking straight may allow you to figure out how to stay alive, even though you haven't been trained to do so, or have absolutely no previous experience with the situation that you find yourself in.

On the other hand, I've known more than one police officer that "forgot his training", and couldn't even manage to get his gun out of the holster, when it counted. Also been involved in more than one court case where "He/she just panicked" was the excuse for any number of behaviors that were contradictory to training or other learned behaviors. )

Make any more sense?

J.C.

[Jamie C.]

Been to an shooting range lately? For many it's easier to hit the ceiling than the target. If one can't hit a target to begin with, who cares how well they do under pressure.
5 will get you 10 that most of these people don't take what they're doing seriously, and have deluded themselves into believing that either 1) They'll suddenly shoot better if they need to, or 2) Don't think they'll ever need the skill. These are exactly the kind of people that "lose it" when TSHTF.



Couldn't agree with you more, apologies for being unclear earlier. Mindset far outways training or equipment. However, your implication that training can be pointless because proper mindset will be the overriding factor is fallacious.
See my post to Pax, up above. Ever see a veteran police officer hopping around in a circle, trying to get his gun out of it's holster, when he really needed to be drawing and shooting? I have.
Sorry, but training can instill the proper mind-set, but that doesn't mean that it always will. If it did, nobody would ever "wash out" of the police academy or boot camp.

Soldiers and Marines train constantly to deal with a variety of situations and problems faced on the battlefield. Mindset becomes a product of training. One can be cool as a cucumber but when faced with bracketing mortars, does he know to find cover and move perpendicular to incoming rounds?
A green recruit "locking up" the first time he's subject to live fire or real combat is nothing new.

One is quite meaningless without the other.

I wouldn't say "meaningless". Although both can be greatly hampered by a lack of the other, I still think the "cool head" is more valuable, since it's much harder to teach. ;)


J.C.

[ThreadKiller]

Isn't one of the best ways to get to the "cool head" state is to practice and practice and practice good techniques and in the hopes it will yield confidence? (and not just accuracy drills) The knowledge that you are proficient in the use of the weapon has to have at least some calming effect IMHO.

I know when I get out on the trap field my scores are generally better when I have confidence in my shooting (and that only comes with lotsa practice). It's not the same kind of stress as incoming fire to be sure, but take on the last 5 clays when you've got a 100 straight going!

Confidence in your ability goes a long ways to control the "yips."

Tim

[Jamie C.]

Isn't one of the best ways to get to the "cool head" state is to practice and practice and practice good techniques and in the hopes it will yield confidence?

Pfc got close to the truth when he mentioned the Marines....

I'm not convinced you can teach a person to be calm and cool-headed... But you can condition them to it, in most cases, I think. Simply put, you place them under stress. A little at first, increasing the level as they go, until you reach the level that they'll be expected to function under. Then you go a bit past that, and see what happens. ( Some people have a higher tolerance to stress, naturally, than others, and respond to whatever they need to without prior conditioning. )

Military training has several purposes. One is to teach you to do the things that'll be required of you. The second is to condition you to doing those things under extreme stress.

The third purpose is to "weed out" those that simply can't deal with it, and fold under pressure.

LEO training does much the same, but not to the extreme that military training does, in my opinion. ( Yes, I've been through both. )



J.C.

[280PLUS]

Interesting idea Gordon...

All I know is it made me start thinking real hard about a DA auto vs single action. Then I discovered most of he problem was my thumb going outside the holster and not finding the safety right away. Once I made a few adjustments to the holster the problem all but disappeared. I take the safety off now without a second thought but I still see it as a potential trouble spot when under duress. I think I'll suggest some Tueller drills tomorrow when we get together for practice. BTW I normally carry a lightweight S&W J frame in .32 Mag, I use the High Power for practice because the ammo is much cheaper. Lately we have taken to practicing with both auto and revolver too which isn't a bad idea.

As far as operating under stress. I think one of the things that helped me learn to keep my cool under pressure was Navy damage control school. Learning how to shore up a bulkhead or blank off a flange while the ice cold water is rushing in all over you and filling your space is a great way to learn to stay calm and continue to function. Too bad you all can't go through it.

[isp2605]

I think I'll suggest some Tueller drills tomorrow when we get together for practice.

To make the Tueller Drill more stressful, and somewhat more realistic -
Give the attacker a club of sorts, something like foam wrapped 1" PVC. While the attacker is charging with the PVC they are to be screaming at the top of their lungs. If you can drop the hammer before the attacker gets to you then the attacker has to stop his attack. If you can't create distance, draw, and drop the hammer then the attacker pops you a good one with the PVC. Just having someone run at you doesn't create enough stress. You have to add something to the scenario where you have something to lose, in this case, a whop with PVC. Adding the running full tilt, screaming and the real threat of a knot on your noggin will cause many to fumble the draw and drop their guns. We've been using that training tactic for many years. It's definitely not the same as someone really charging you with a knife but it does put more stress to the situation.
Also remember the Tueller Drill does not indicate that you can stop an attack in 21 ft. All the Tueller Drill does is demonstrate that someone can cover that distance and attack you, and if you are quick enough you might be able to get off 1 shot before they're on you. Also remember, that just because you hit them with a shot it does not mean they are incapacitated. Unless you just get lucky enough to hit the brain or cut the spine they'll still be able to carry thru with their attack. With Tueller situations create distance and get off line.

[280PLUS]

Also remember the Tueller Drill does not indicate that you can stop an attack in 21 ft. All the Tueller Drill does is demonstrate that someone can cover that distance and attack you, and if you are quick enough you might be able to get off 1 shot before they're on you. Also remember, that just because you hit them with a shot it does not mean they are incapacitated. Unless you just get lucky enough to hit the brain or cut the spine they'll still be able to carry thru with their attack. With Tueller situations create distance and get off line. All duly noted, I think the main thing the Tuellers demonstrate is how difficult or nearly impossible it is to stop someone who charges you from within 21 feet. 15 ft? Forget about it, you'll never pull it off.


We don't have anyone actually charging us, they are running the opposite direction away from the line of fire to a pre-measured spot 21 feet away. We are using live ammo. I assume you are talking about a dry fire exercise?

An afterthought...

Story: What we do is station a person down 21 ft behind the line of fire. The runner claps the outstretched hand of that person as they blow by the 21 ft line and the shooter can hear the clap and get an idea how far ahead or how far behind they are. Well, one day I'm the outstretched hand and the runner is about the size of a large gorilla. Big young strapping kid. He smacked my hand SO HARD I thought it was comin' off!! I pretended it didn't hurt. ;) Now you want me to put a piece of pipe in his hand and let him whack me on the head with it?

I KNOW I'm gonna get a rap on the noggin'. Why would I want to do that? :eek:

:D

[isp2605]

All duly noted, I think the main thing the Tuellers demonstrate is how difficult or nearly impossible it is to stop someone who charges you from within 21 feet. 15 ft? Forget about it, you'll never pull it off.


Point is it doesn't show how difficult it is to stop someone. It shows only how difficult it is to get a shot off in that distance. You most likely won't stop them even if you do get a shot off and hit them. They're on you so close by the time you get the shot off that they can still inflict major damage even after being hit. They won't be immediately incapacitated.

[Cosmoline]

It's entirely possible to get off one or more shots before the runner gets to 21 feet. It just takes practice, practice and more practice plus a fine-tuning of your carry technique. Munden can fire six shots before I can blink.

[isp2605]

It's entirely possible to get off one or more shots before the runner gets to 21 feet. It just takes practice, practice and more practice plus a fine-tuning of your carry technique. Munden can fire six shots before I can blink.

Don't doubt that Munden can. Bill Jordan probably could too. How many on here can come close to either of those?
I'm well aware of the Tueller Drill. We've been doing it for over 25 yrs. Seen it done several thousand times a year with a wide variety of people. A lot of people can get off a shot. Do with the stress inducer as I described earlier and watch the shot ratios go down.

[Cosmoline]

Of course, what other solution is there besides more and more practice?

Tactically, the limitations of the handgun as a personal defense weapon are a good reason to have one of these things with you when you're out walking in dark places.

http://www.alaskagermanshepherds.com/CohenHandBAug2004Pic2LG.jpg

[280PLUS]

Do with the stress inducer as I described earlier and watch the shot ratios go down.

I ran the scenario by the RSO's at practice today. They are not comfortable with anyone dry firing AT anyone else. I'd still like to try it, maybe with a toy gun? Or one of those Hollywood prop guns...

I don't doubt there are people out there who could get the shots off. I've seen it happen. I just feel that even if they did the attacker would be so close and at such speed by that time that they would carry on through the shots. That's why I get the impression it is "nearly impossible" to stop a determined attacker from getting to you if they are at 21 ft or closer. Excepting the earlier mentioned brain or spinal cord shot.

There weren't enough there today to do any Tuellers. We did some other good stuff though! I was lucky again, I had the Marine and the SEAL all to myself today. Very productive for me when that happens.

:D

Cosmo, what did you do to that nice doggie to make him so mad? :eek: :p

[isp2605]

I ran the scenario by the RSO's at practice today. They are not comfortable with anyone dry firing AT anyone else. I'd still like to try it, maybe with a toy gun? Or one of those Hollywood prop guns...


Your trainers don't have training guns?
The scenario I gave you is what we as an agency have been using for several years. 2100 officers several times a year, every year for DT refresher training.

[Cosmoline]

Cosmo, what did you do to that nice doggie to make him so mad? :eek: :p

I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck :D

That's my buddy Cohen. He's a big silly, but I know perfectly well he dreams every night of chasing people down and eating manflesh. He'd like nothing better than to have someone come charging up at me in a dark alley.

[280PLUS]

Your trainers don't have training guns? Not to my knowledge, I've seen a training knife around but never a gun. I'll bring it up next time I get together with them. Chances are there's one around.

I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck LMAO...THAT would explain it. I thought maybe you took his doggie biscuit! :D

[gunfan]

[QUOTE=Cosmoline]I ran 21 feet up to him and smacked him on the head with a padded sitck :D

QUOTE]

That would piss me off too!

If you practice sufficiently, it (the loss of fine motor control) should deteriorate less under stress!

Scott

[Jamie C.]

If you practice sufficiently, it (the loss of fine motor control) should deteriorate less under stress!

If you can practice under conditions that stress you out, this is true, at least to a degree. Just working on you marksmanship alone won't do it, however.

And given that people are stressed by different things, it can get rather tough to find one ( a situation ) that works for a given individual.

Also, you can't rule out the fact that for many people, anything other than the "real thing" is taken only as some kind of game. In other words, no matter how nasty it gets, training-wise, they still know they're safe, somewhere in the back of their minds... And may very well fold up the first time it's "real".


J.C.

P.S. Still not saying you shouldn't practice your shooting skills, ever chance you get. Every little bit helps, after all. Maybe. Hopefully. :D :scrutiny: :confused:

[bachman1961]

The close quarter combat reading I did (definition) was re; 1992 printing and 9 to 21 feet was the range most often identified.
That book also stated some stats of a national average if I recall correctly... Law Enforcement average hit on target / shots fired was at or below 25 percent. (Real gun fights) The training was being stepped up and more focus on duty weapon and back up weapon training with duty rounds.
Also,, a legal consideration State by State is the Retreat law regarding the actual threat. In some cases you are legally bound to retreat or escape from the threat if there is a plausible way out.

[280PLUS]

Also, you can't rule out the fact that for many people, anything other than the "real thing" is taken only as some kind of game. In other words, no matter how nasty it gets, training-wise, they still know they're safe, somewhere in the back of their minds... And may very well fold up the first time it's "real". Which is why I suggested boxing or other full contact martial art. You can take it to a level where it IS real if you desire and learn to function accordingly.

[SAWBONES]

If you can't reliably "place" your shots at the range, you'll never do it in "for real" conditions.
I see folks at the range every week who've never learned the basics.
Hopefully, most folks here aren't in that camp.

IME, the primary impediment to accurate shot placement AFTER the basics of sight alignment and trigger control are well learned, is "trigger-jerking".

We all do it, especially when we're trying to maintain sight alignment AND fire the weapon under TIME CONSTRAINTS, as with a target that's moving or only briefly visible.
We strive to overcome this by practice, but it happens to all of us some of the time.

[CraigJS]

If at all possible you have to ID your threat before they get to that "10 or 20foot" point or else be ready for the possibility of, 1. you being shot, or 2. having to literally gut shoot the BG as they come in. If you don't see the threat comming, the bad guy WILL have the drop on you, and by the time you react your in deep defication.. It's not the old west seeing who can slap leather first. Why do you think that a LEO will draw their pieces before the lethal threat happens. They have ID'd the potential of having to use lethel force.. Then training and skill come into play.
Opinions?
CraigJS

[gunfan]

If at all possible you have to ID your threat before they get to that "10 or 20foot" point or else be ready for the possibility of, 1. you being shot, or 2. having to literally gut shoot the BG as they come in. If you don't see the threat comming, the bad guy WILL have the drop on you, and by the time you react your in deep defication.. It's not the old west seeing who can slap leather first. Why do you think that a LEO will draw their pieces before the lethal threat happens. They have ID'd the potential of having to use lethel force.. Then training and skill come into play.
Opinions?
CraigJS

I agree. There is nothing worse that the inablilty to react with the "window of a threat." Prepare, or die.

Scott

[Island Beretta]

technical training to shoot a handgun doesn't influence how you react under stress but it is one less thing to worry about.. one is physical the other is physiological and psychological..I have known ccw holders who have given their guns to captors and had it used against them.. others fight it out.. self-defense is not the weapon, it is the person..the best thing you can do is to get out of your own way so the reptilian brain can function

We have seen examples of top shooters who because of a psychological issue suddenly can't trip the trigger to fire the weapon e.g. close to breaking a record..just recently a GM trying for a sub 3 el presidente on realising he was on his way to making it had his trigger finger freeze up on the last shot....

when I shoot if I ever think of doing it fast you can bet your last dollar, its not going to be fast..or as fast as I would like..