Hostage-taker is negotiated into withdrawing sans hostage: do you keep your word?

[Krenn]

Note: I KNOW that there are a LOT of decisions to be made throughout this process, and that the decisions (and results) I've selected are by no means always, or even ever, the correct ones. Bear with me here, and focus on the final, POSED, question.

So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.

You KNOW that your training isn't good enough to guarentee that you can take him out in this situation... you figure a 10% chance you can make the rifle shot without hurting the hostage, and an additional 30% chance that you can can kill the man while only head-wounding the woman. Since that's not acceptable unless and until the situation gets worse, you negotiate instead.

Very slowly, you talk him into lowering the knife while you lower the rifle. you negotiate that he gets your (convenietly full of cash) wallet, and that he gets to go, but will leave the hostage behind. The police will be in here in a few more minutes, and he knows how much more trouble that will put him in, so he wants this over and done with as soon as possible so he can still get away.

The handout goes down nice and slowly. you put the wallet on the banister. You unload the rifle and toss it aside. he leaves the hostage at the top of the stairs, and starts coming down, still with the knife. He doesn't know about the concealed handgun, and you can draw it fairly quickly. He gets halfway down, and you have a choice:

1. you can draw the handgun and demand that he surrender.

2. you can keep your word, step aside, let him leave with the wallet, and give his description to the police when they arrive soon after.

3. you can draw and fire.

which do you choose? and yes, I KNOW that it's a contrived situation.

[Aikibiker]

Draw and fire.

With him still holding the knife he is a lethal threat. If he closes the distance and kills you he can then do whatever he wants with the hostage, gets to keep your conveniently full of cash wallet, and as a bonus he can also grab up your rifle and use it against the cops when they show up. Bad situation all around.


I also do not believe that giving your word under duress (the bad having a knife to the throat of the hostage qualifies for me) has any valid meaning. In my mind any deal I make is not giving my word it is a part of a combat strategy designed to protect the hostage, myself, and to what ever degree possible the badguy.

[Zundfolge]

So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.

You KNOW that your training isn't good enough to guarentee that you can take him out in this situation... you figure a 10% chance you can make the rifle shot without hurting the hostage, and an additional 30% chance that you can can kill the man while only head-wounding the woman.

Just how long are these stairs?

I'm thinking that even though I'm not some kind of Camp Perry winning expert marksman I could still pull a headshot with a rifle at that short of distance.

[Biker]

I'm afraid that I'd have to grease him, assuming that the hostage was a member of my family. No apologies, no regrets. Sometimes you have to lie to liars, cheat cheaters and deal violently with violent people. Sometimes all three simultaneously.
Biker

[shermacman]

Bingo!

The key term is "under duress".

Gut shoot him.

[svtruth]

I'd have to balance the PITA of legal defense vs the PITA of replacing/canceling license, credit cards, etc. in wallet.

[dasmi]

Draw and fire. He's still a threat. Letting him get that close to you, with a knife, is asking for trouble.

[enfield303]

If he still has the knife, he is still a threat. Therefore he dies. ESPECIALLY if he had the pi$$-poor judgment to hold a knife to MY WIFE'S THROAT.

[Jeff White]

I don't understand why you're negotiating. You have the suspect contained, the police are on the way. He either puts the knife down and moves away or dies....Seems like a pretty cut and dried situation to me.

Jeff

[Lupinus]

Jeff-
Because the idea is to get him to put the knife down and move away so you have a clean shot without having to get it by him slitting her throat. If yo uhave a good shot its one thing but if not you need to get him to let her go before you can take that shot.

[Mongo the Mutterer]

he leaves the hostage at the top of the stairs, and starts coming down, still with the knife. Okay... he's too stupid to live, but he's released my loved one, and assuming she's clear, SHE will probably shoot him in the back of the head, and I'll have all those brains to clean up.

"Get the swiffer, honey"

[hso]

Shoot

[Jeff White]

So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.

I see no reason to negotiate. We're looking at a 15 foot or less shot in most houses. I've trained to make that shot with my patrol rifle for work. The only negotiation is for him to drop the knife and move away so he can be taken into custody or he dies. His choice. He cuts the hostage and he dies, again his choice. There is no situation that would make me give up a weapon. That is the kind of stuff you see in poorly written TV shows and movies.

Jeff

[Zundfolge]

"Get the swiffer, honey"

Dammit ... now I have to clean coffee off my monitor :neener:

[Dr.Rob]

Ain't no way I'm unloading and 'tossing aside' a weapon while he's still armed. He's still a threat within 21 feet.

[shoobe01]

You watch too many movies. No way is he gonna reflex-kill someone with a knife. And if he's so hidden behind the hostage you can't hit them, then use the fact that he can't see you well to move to a place you can hit him.

Despite the original posting, I still deny the premise. Never negotiate here. Shoot him. Well, you could take a moment to say one thing, then ignore what he says (distracting himself) while taking a moment to aim, make sure you have accounted offset right, etc.


Lucky for me the wife will be ready for the shot. She also yells at the TV when some dumbass gives up his gun at the wildly insane serial killer armed with a pointed stick.

[KriegHund]

Corner of the wall

Why dont you just shoot through the wall, especially if you have a rifle? But then you risk hitting a beam.

Ide shoot him as soon as he is far away from the loved one. He can still kill you.

[Charles S]

The only fair fight is the one you walk away from. When it comes to my loved ones there is only one rule.....Win.

I will fight ruthlessly, and in a manner that some will perceive as unfair, but unless I utterly fail, I will win...The only objective is the safety of my family and myself.

Charles

[Technosavant]

Somebody breaks into my house, his life is in severe danger.

He has a weapon, his life is over unless he disarms.

He threatens my loved ones, he does not leave alive for any reason.

[c_yeager]

Well you made a bum deal, you have a better position than he does. No way should he be allowed to keep his weapon. The only real deal to make in that situation is that he put down the knife and you dont kill him.

The real trouble If you plan on lying in that situation is that he will see through it. i would practice a *lot*. Most people make piss-poor liers when under duress and if you freak the guy out your looking to have a real mess on your hands.

[benEzra]

My wife has told me in no uncertain terms that if I am EVER confronted by that kind of situation, to shoot the attacker without hesitation. She would a lot rather risk being injured by some sort of reflex action than to give an attacker carte blanche to do what he wants to with us. The consequences are just worse.

In your hypothetical situation, unless that wall is masonry, you can shoot through the wall, or move to a position where you have a clear shot.

[CAS700850]

I recently prosecuted an Attempted Murder case where the defendnat raped a girl (16), then cut her throat with a serrated bread knife (the blade was 9 inches long, decently sharp). It was attempted murder because she survived, called 911 on her own, and is doing very well.

My point? Despite what Hollywood has implanted in our collective consciousness, cutting a person's throat isn't a guaranteed kill. So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary. A reflex-action cut on an adult will very ikely not be deep enough to present a serious risk of death, and you'll be there to get the squad ASAP.

[JamisJockey]

Somewhere, some mall has lost its Ninja.

[Shipwreck]

Somewhere, some mall has lost its Ninja.

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :o :rolleyes:

[JamisJockey]

I see no reason to negotiate. We're looking at a 15 foot or less shot in most houses. I've trained to make that shot with my patrol rifle for work. The only negotiation is for him to drop the knife and move away so he can be taken into custody or he dies. His choice. He cuts the hostage and he dies, again his choice. There is no situation that would make me give up a weapon. That is the kind of stuff you see in poorly written TV shows and movies.

Jeff

+1 (that's twice in one day, Jeff :p )

I live in a 2500 sqft two story. I just broke out the tape measure. Top of the stairs to bottom is 16'. That's 5 yards. I think you could dot the Eye and cross the Tee with a freaking snubbie at that range. Rifle? You oughta be able to put it into a really small space at that range. I'm not a fan of headshots, but at 5 freaking yards you oughta be able to put it in the guy's eye.
I ain't dropping it, I'm dropping the BG.
Worst case scenerio in my house is from one end of the upstairs hallway to the kitchen sink. 16 yards. :rolleyes:

[Werewolf]

:) Sounds like a scenario right out of the movies.

Of course in the movies the good guy, be he a cop or a citizen, when confronted, always drops his weapon. Stupid, stupid, STUPID! Never give up your weapon.

The movie scenario I'd write would go something like this:

There'd be no negotiation, no talking, not a single word. A head shot with a rifle at stair case distance, even from bottom to top is pretty darn easy. The BG would just grow a third eye and drop like a rock with a single shot to the head.

This being a movie and all, I suppose some dialogue would be necessary so it'd go something like this:

Goodguy: Drop the knife fool or yur dead...
Badguy: No way man. No way. You drop the gun or I'll cut 'er man. I mean it man. I'll cut 'er.
Girl: [calmly] Just shoot this moron and get this over with. I've had a long day and I'm starting to get annoyed.
Badguy: Shut up BITCH!
Goodguy: Look fool it's like this. I can just shoot you in the head and you die. You cut her and you die. Or we can wait for the cops in which case you probably will die or you can just drop the knife, let her go and you live. So what we've got here is a situation where the odds of you dieing are about 3 and a half outta 4. Your choice dude... Live or Die? Up to you.
Badguy: I'll cut 'er man I mean it.
Goodguy: Some people are just too stupid to live. BANG!

Badguy grows a third eye. Lights out for BG. Girl sighs and straightens blouse. goodguy dashes up the stairs...

Goodguy to Girl: He shud'a paid better attention in school.
Girl: What do you mean?
Goodguy: 3 and a half to 4 odds of dying and it was his choice. Obviously he paid no attention at all in math class.
Girl: Probably went to a government run public school. [shrugs] He never had a chance. [giggles] Let's go to bed. [wiggles off in the direction of the bed room]

That's the movies.
This is real life.

Badguy: Drop the gun -
Goodguy: BANG!
Badguy grows third eye. End of problem - mostly anyway - still gotta deal with the cops and DA. Minor issues really when one considers the altenative.

[Biker]

Something just occured to me: I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise. My Glocks or revolvers? No problem. The BG takes one in the brainpan, but I always shoot my Bushie at 25 yards plus! Hmmmm....
Biker

[MikeIsaj]

I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise. About 1 inch below your aim point if your sights are accurate at 200yds.

There is a good reason rule #1 in hostage negotiations is "don't make any promise, you cannot keep." For negotiation to work. the hostage needs to believe you will keep your word.

I would have reminded the BG that if he hurts the hostage I have no other reason not to kill him. Priority #1 is convincing him it is in his best interests not to hurt the hostage. Step #2 is convincing him that your cooperation is necessary for him to get out of this mess. Step #3 is to convince him that you will decide what will happen next. That puts him in a mind to listen to you.

Assuming your house is of average size, the BG will be within 10 - 15 feet of you. You will never draw and shoot before he reaches you with that knife.

[c_yeager]

My point? Despite what Hollywood has implanted in our collective consciousness, cutting a person's throat isn't a guaranteed kill. So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary.

getting shot in the head isnt a guaranteed kill either FYI...

[JamisJockey]

getting shot in the head isnt a guaranteed kill either FYI...

Probably enough to discourage that person from going much further with whatever they are doing....
:evil:

[Jeff White]

Biker said;
Something just occured to me: I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise.

You need to practice in close, and you need to learn about offset and hold over.

Offset is the distance from the top of the front sight to the centerline of the bore. Standard iron sights on an AR type weapon are approximately 2.5 inches over the bore.

Holdover is the difference between point of aim and point of impact by compensating for the offset. Factors affecting holdover are the offset built into your weapon, (different sighting systems have different offsets, some red dot systems mounted on top of the carry handle can make height over the bore as high as 4 inches) the trajectory of the round you use and the zero of the weapon.

It's hard to give a definte holdover because everyone's rifle will be slightly different. If you are shooting standard iron sights and you don't have a zero set for say 500 meters, you can pretty much go with a 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch holdover at ranges closer then 25 yards. You need to go to the range and verify this. The 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch rule of thumb is also good for most red dot type sights mounted to co-witness with the irons. but once again, go to the range and find out, then train at close range, because if you don't train yourself to use a different sight picture up close, you will default to your standard sight picture and in a situation such as the one in this thread, that could have tragic results.

Jeff

[Hawkmoon]

In your hypothetical situation, unless that wall is masonry, you can shoot through the wall, or move to a position where you have a clear shot.
Nope. Bad guess.

Even in a house with sheetrock walls, they use 3 2x4 studs to frame the corners. If his head is behind a corner, to shoot through the wall you'll be shooting through at least two of those three 2x4s.

Ain't gonna happen. Yes, a .223 or an AK round will probably make it through, but forget accuracy, and it may loose enough punch that when (if) it hits him, all it's going to do is make him mad.

[Biker]

Of course you're right, Jeff. I just always considered the Bushmaster my 25 yard plus gun. Thus, that's where I work it. The first gun I would grab in the situation above would be my 870 with rifle sights that I keep loaded with slugs. But it suddenly came to me that if the Bushy was closer and ended up in my hand, I wouldn't know where my front sight should be up close. Bad situation. Thanks for the info.
Biker

[Javelin Man]

I'd make sure the family member gets into another room with a locked door so she/he's safe, and announce to the BG that new negotiations are underway. I've already pulled the pistol and said two options are available to him: 1. put the knife down and sit on the steps to wait for the police, or 2. don't put the knife down and go out feet first.

I would thank him for not harming my family member and as a courtesy, I won't blow his brains out in return if he cooperates.

[Shalako]

So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary.

CAS700850, are you saying that you would give first aid to the badguy?

If so, you are a better man than I. Well, maybe I'd do a... version... of the heimlich manuever, but then again, I'm no expert in first aid. You grab around the neck for that right?

[Krenn]

He probably meant for the hostage. lacerations from exploding wall and bone fragments and all that.

[WvaBill]

There is no situation that would make me give up a weapon.

Isn't that what happened to Ian Campbell?

[NineseveN]

The BG would be on his back. no words, no warnings, no discussion. Just a wink to my lady and lights out.

I don't negotiate when I'm the one with the rifle. At 15 feet, I can write my name on a 3x5 index card. :D

In all seriousness, STK.

[Borachon]

That's 5 yards.

yeah, but it's a FLUID 5 yards. The second it seemed to me that you were trying to draw a bead on me, I'd pull your loved one into the shot. If you and I danced that dance a couple of times, you'd probably get frustrated enough to stop trying to pin me in your sights.


Then I'd push your loved one toward you (maybe a little to the side) and try to grab your rifle in my left hand while stabbing you with the knife in my right.

Sounds too "movie-ish" doesn't it? Never work...right?

I would have thought so too before I saw an exhibition at a local police station. They had some ex-Special Forces knife expert come in and show how quickly you can kill someone with a knife.

It's only 15 feet. Get a young kid sometime to leap at you across 15 feet as fast as he can. You don't have much time to think about it. He's on you fast. If he's got enough sense to push your rifle barrel away from himself, he can start carving on you while you stand there.

I guess what I'm saying is...just cause you've got a gun doesn't mean you'd win in that situation.

[benEzra]

Even in a house with sheetrock walls, they use 3 2x4 studs to frame the corners. If his head is behind a corner, to shoot through the wall you'll be shooting through at least two of those three 2x4s.
I was assuming 7.62x39mm as the caliber in question, but I'd think even 9mm JHP's would go through three 2x4's (just a guess). That'd be an interesting experiment at the range...see if it shifts POI any also...

[TallPine]

I discovered what Jeff is talking about the first time I tried to shoot a snake at close range with a solid bullet (22 LR). I mean, you'd think I could hit something at 6 feet, right? :(

[Jeff White]

Borachon said;

yeah, but it's a FLUID 5 yards. The second it seemed to me that you were trying to draw a bead on me, I'd pull your loved one into the shot. If you and I danced that dance a couple of times, you'd probably get frustrated enough to stop trying to pin me in your sights.

Ever seen and trained with Louis Awerbuck's simulator for just this situation? You learn to shoot when you have a the shot, not dance the dance. As I said earlier, this is something that you can train for.

Then I'd push your loved one toward you (maybe a little to the side) and try to grab your rifle in my left hand while stabbing you with the knife in my right.

From the top of the steps? :rolleyes: Been watching The Matrix again? ;) If the staircase is enclosed the best you can hope for is that the three of you wind up in a pile at the bottom of the steps and you don't injure yourself too badly in the fall.

If the staircase is open and has a bannister on one side, there is a good chance you're going to go over or break through the bannister and land on the floor below and you're probably not going to be prepared for that landing, greatly increasing the odds you'll seriously injure yourself.

If you look back at the original scenario, the good guy with the rifle is at the bottom of the stairs. So you pull your Hollywood move and push the hostage down the stairs in front of you you have to get past her to get to the guy with the rifle. As soon as she's down, the NSR goes into your chest. I guarantee you that a trained person could put 5 or 6 into your chest in the 1-2 seconds (maybe more considering you put an obstacle in front of you) it would take you to cover that distance. Remember he's got his weapon raised looking to shoot anyway. It's not like he has to draw from concealment.

I would have thought so too before I saw an exhibition at a local police station. They had some ex-Special Forces knife expert come in and show how quickly you can kill someone with a knife.

The guy must have been a martial artist who had been in SF at one time. Trust me, there isn't a lot of knife training in the military, not even in SOF. In fact I know a guy who is in the unit the Army says doesn't even exist who doesn't even carry a fixed blade on operations, just a multitool. I'm not sure of the demographics, but I rather doubt that you'll find anyone possessing the skill that you saw in the demonstration doing home invasions except in John Woo movies.

I guess what I'm saying is...just cause you've got a gun doesn't mean you'd win in that situation.

There are no guarantees, but a firearm and the training and mindset to properly employ it give you one heck of an advantage.

Jeff

[NineseveN]

+1 Jeff

[Jubei]

Shoot The Hostage!

Sorry, I couldn't help it. If I have a line on the BG, I take the shot. But the offset on the sights does make me think that I have some new type of practice to do.

Jubei

[mitchshrader]

to incarcerate a felon.

shoot him. my taxes are high enough now. in ADVANCE, I forgive you for lying.

[bachman1961]

If I had surrendered my rifle and BG has the knife, (I don't see that happening, I'd back away and give my wallet as an escape option for BG), I should know the cc gun draw will generally not beat an edged weapon response at close quarter range. I've put my life in BG's hands and I'd have to say that after making the poor choice of giving up my first gun, I'd draw down on BG w/o a second thought. The problem here is there is a second thought. I won't have time to draw and give BG the command of dropping the knife should BG decide to throw it at me or attack. I'd pretty much want to draw and shoot. I'd hope that since I'm not LE , I won't be held to as high of a standard in the lethal confrontation. The reality is I'd probably give the command after my draw and hope the worst of it is me dodging an airborn knife.. assuming I had a 9 foot gap and further assuming I'd shoot if he came at me. "Drop the knife or I"ll shoot" might be the last words BG hears. I really don't see an instance when I'd put my life over the hostage and disarm myself. (If it were my own family.. okay.. you got me) The knife is a lethal confrontation and going to the cc gun draw is not a good enough back up plan in my opinion.

[XLMiguel]

Why, for a minute, do you think you owe 'honor' to some terd that is extorting 'your word' under duress? Blow his friggin' head off. If he's still twiching, staple his head to the ground with 3 or 4 more. Any questions?

[Jeff White]

Mike,
Anchoring shots may be emotionally pleasing, they are liable to get one in trouble in a non-military situation. Selling the Grand Jury on your story that you were worried the badguy would rise up and attack you from behind as you vacated the area, might be a tad difficult. ;)

Jeff

[geekWithA.45]

Duh.

Shoot him through the wall with the rifle.

That's what rifles are FOR.

[NorthernExtreme]

If you think a BG who just let your wife go in exchange for your wallet is a threat, wait till you see the DA who will try to make you rot in jail for shooting a person who "AT THE TIME' was not an emediate threat to your life. Because as you said, he was coming down the stairs to get your wallet, not davancing on YOU with the deadly weapon.

You would have to explain how you thought he was an emediate deadly threat while he was complying with your request to do a swap. It all depends on what you tell the Police when they arrive .

(Officer I shot because I felt my Life was in danger. I would like to talk to my Lawyer .) End of all communications with the Police.

[NineseveN]

If you think a BG who just let your wife go in exchange for your wallet is a threat, wait till you see the DA who will try to make you rot in jail for shooting a person who "AT THE TIME' was not an emediate threat to your life. Because as you said, he was coming down the stairs to get your wallet, not davancing on YOU with the deadly weapon.

You would have to explain how you thought he was an emediate deadly threat while he was complying with your request to do a swap. It all depends on what you tell the Police when they arrive .

(Officer I shot because I felt my Life was in danger. I would like to talk to my Lawyer .) End of all communications with the Police.


Um, who's telling the police about the swap? Raise your hands...good, now give us your guns and here's your bubblegum. That's it, move along....

Officer, I told him forcefully to let my wife go or I would shoot. He seemed to become enraged over my stern demands and pushed my wife aside and came towards me in a kamiakze run, knife in hand. I was in fear for my life, and for the life of my wife who would have been comepletely at his mercy had I been killed or disabled from the knife-weilding attacker. I shot him dead.

End.
Of.
Story.

The goon ain't gonna be swooing a jury with his woe-is-me song and dance, and if your wife is one to rat you out for that, well then she wasn't exactly worth savin now was she? :evil:

[TMM]

the way i work is, basically, if you F around with my family, girlfriend, wife, or other close people, you are in for either pain or death, depending on the situation. in this case, the guy gets a magful of Golddots to the gut.

~TMM

[Biker]

To be perfectly honest, it's not a problem. The guy has a knife within 15 feet, hence he's a threat. Even if he drops it and you grease him after the fact, he's still in the vicinity. Doesn't matter to me. You don't pet a rabid dog, you shoot it.
And you're right: Say as little as possible to the cops.
Biker

[Working Man]

Say as little as possible to the cops.

+1

Sad that it has come to that, but that is the best advice.

[junyo]

Tactically, as stated before, the situation seems contrived. At the distances described, you could practically touch him with the muzzle of a long gun; why you wouldn't just take the shot from the bottom of the stairs is beyond me, and you'd have to be insane to ever consider conceding a sizable chunk of your advantage by putting down the rifle.

However, assuming that for whatever reason you did, it strikes me as... unseemly to then shot the suspect. Break your word and detain him for the police, certainly. And if he rushes me, or attempts to recapture his hostage, all bets are off. But to negotiate the release of your loved one, essentially in bad faith, and then use that release as an opportunity for a clear shot seems a bit too premeditated, a bit too judge/jury/executioner, especially when you add the component of lying to the authorities about the event. I'm trying to protect my home and loved ones, not dispense frontier justice.

[Sam]

A promise made under duress is not binding.
The other point is that if you mess with me and mine you will be subjected to violence.
Do not ever bet on my better nature,
I don't have one.:evil:

Sam