[Waitone]

<Poster's Comment--Immigration Wars set to begin November 2005>

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/26/224020.shtml

Senate to Debate Immigration Reform Issues in November

NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Oct. 27, 2005


WASHINGTON -- President George Bush is urging lawmakers to approve a multi-billion dollar plan to crackdown on illegal immigration. Nearly everyone agrees the immigration system needs comprehensive reforms, but there is fierce debate on how to fix it.

As many as 11 million immigrants may be working illegally in the United States, and the US chamber of Commerce says the actual number could be double that, if non working family members are included.

The national federation, which represents business interests in the United States, says America's immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed; a sentiment shared by President Bush who signed a $32 billion homeland security bill this week.

Mr. Bush wants to secure America's borders and get tough on illegal immigrants, but still fill the need for foreign workers. "We need to find a way to fill that demand by matching willing employers with willing workers from foreign countries on a temporary and legal basis."

The reforms, which still need congressional approval, include a temporary guest worker program that would allow undocumented aliens to work in the US for three years before they have to return to their home countries to apply for a new work permit.

The president's proposal also sets aside funds for more border enforcement guards, detention facilities and high tech improvements.

While there is agreement change is needed, there is disagreement on how it should be done.

Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy want to give illegal immigrants an avenue to become legal US residents without the need to go home. Senator Kennedy says, "The principle difference is he (the President) would have those individuals return to the country, it doesn't really make a great deal of sense economically and it doesn't make sense from a humane point of view."

President Bush is opposed to granting amnesty to illegal (immigrants) already in the country and so is Senator McCain. He says his bill would require illegal immigrants to pay a $2,000 fine so they can apply for a tamper proof identification card before they can be eligible to work. "And then they would have to work for 6 years and then be eligible for a green card and get at the end of the line, which would probably take another 5 years. Anybody who calls that amnesty doesn't read the same dictionary I do, we think it's pretty tough.."

But not tough enough for the head of the National Border Patrol council. The union which represents more than 10,000 border patrol agents wants all illegal immigration halted.

T.J. Bonner claims illegal immigrants take away jobs and lower the quality of life in America. "It happened in the meat packing industry in the Midwest where you had Americans working for $18 an hour displaced by people who were recruited in Mexico to work for $6 an hour. It's happened in the drywall industry and many industries around the country."

But members of the Hispanic community, the largest and fastest growing minority in the US, say illegal immigrants take jobs Americans don't want.

Entire industries such as agriculture and construction rely on cheap immigrant labor.

Hector Flores, the national leader of the League of United Latin American Citizens or LULAC, says the economy would shut down if the US got rid of all illegal workers. "They're paying taxes like anybody else, they're working to contribute to our economy, we need to look at this very seriously and they need to be rewarded for that and not penalized."

LULAC endorses what it calls the practical approach taken by Senators McCain and Kennedy.

But while the debate goes on, an estimated 900,000 illegal immigrants cross the US, Mexican border every year. The illegal border crossings have prompted hundreds of volunteers to join a controversial civilian group called the Minutemen, who patrol the border, reporting suspicious activity to authorities.

Chuck Floyd says he joined to help protect his country. "Just in April when we were down In Arizona, we patrolled 23 miles and we stopped over 3,000 illegal (immigrants) in one day, just one day."

The Minutemen say in addition to illegal (immigrants) that are looking for work, the porous border is also vulnerable to infiltration by terrorists.

But some civil rights groups accuse the Minutemen of being vigilantes and racists, a charge the group strongly denies.

The Senate is expected to take up the issue of immigration reform in November.

[El Tejon]

War?

Nah, just a healthy debate which is what this issue has needed since the last amnesty in '86.

Imagine actually doing something about the problem rather than ranting about shooting 17 year old who want to wash dishes in Chicago.:rolleyes:

[hso]

How is this gun related instead of Political?

[Ezekiel]

How is this gun related instead of Political?

My only guess? Because the jack-booted thugs asking every brown person in America for [insert Gestapo voice HERE] "papers" are likely to be armed. :uhoh:

It's not that I'm pro immigration (legal or no), but rather that many folks don't seem to understand the repercussions of determining ad hoc that some act or activity represents a "Clear and Present Danger" to the sovereignty of the United States. "This IS how we brilliantly came up with Prohibition..."

Personally, I think that significant action taken in this issue would likely be worse then the known -- or perceived -- problems currently in evidence. IN addition, merely as a point, the "Immigration War" began in 1492. :fire:

Damn. Two smileys in three paragraphs: gratuitous usage, I must say...

[Henry Bowman]

While there is agreement change is needed, there is disagreement on how it should be done.
President George Bush is urging lawmakers to approve a multi-billion dollar plan to crackdown on illegal immigration. Unfortunately, they all agree that it must cost billions of dollars. Otherwise, how would you know that it was government fixing the problem. :rolleyes:

[NCP24]

Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy want to give illegal immigrants What! . . . I can’t hear you. . . . I’m not listening!

T.J. Bonner claims illegal immigrants take away jobs and lower the quality of life in America. "It happened in the meat packing industry in the Midwest where you had Americans working for $18 an hour displaced by people who were recruited in Mexico to work for $6 an hour. It's happened in the drywall industry and many industries around the country."

But members of the Hispanic community, the largest and fastest growing minority in the US, say illegal immigrants take jobs Americans don't want. Lets see $6 an hour vs. $18 an hour, could it be Americans don't want to work for reduced wages?

Hector Flores, the national leader of the League of United Latin American Citizens or LULAC, says the economy would shut down if the US got rid of all illegal workers Good point Hector, why don’t we just give everyone unlimited access to America and abolish our laws. . . .

The Minutemen say in addition to illegal (immigrants) that are looking for work, the porous border is also vulnerable to infiltration by terrorists.

But some civil rights groups accuse the Minutemen of being vigilantes and racists, a charge the group strongly denies. Vigilantes and racists! What. . . I can’t hear you. . . . I’m not listening!

[rick_reno]

Abracadabra. Make em all legal, fix the illegal problem. Brilliant.

[Cacique500]

They're paying taxes like anybody else

http://www.1911pistolgrips.com/img/miscwebpics/rofl.gif

[CAnnoneer]

This is one of those critical issues that will show once and for all if this country can be fixed by its current political system and a healthy dose of realism, or it is really too late for anything but a rapid decline followed by violent rebirth.

[Waitone]

This is one of those critical issues that will show once and for all if this country can be fixed by its current political system and a healthy dose of realism, or it is really too late for anything but a rapid decline followed by violent rebirth.To use an old engineering term: you are dead-nuts on. The ruling class will find out real quick several factors of which it has been oblivious

--American nationalism is on the rise
--Globalism is not a done deal and accepted by the Great Fed Up
--The War on Islamofascist Terrormongers and border security are one and the same in the mind of the Great Fed Up (GFU).
--The threat to the culture of the GRU is great but the ruling class sees no problem. A schism of biblical proportions which will be exposed.

Bush wants this fight on his terms. There is a real chance it will get out of hand and he and other elites will see they made a huge mistake by trying to solve the matter to their satisfaction without dealing with the real problem: the ruling class is out of touch with the GFU. One side will win and for now the GFU is feeling porky because of its sinking of the Miers nomination.

The popcorn concession will be priceless over the next 6 months.

[mfree]

If they're illegal, they're likely being paid under the table and *not* paying taxes.

HOWEVER

If we went to a flat sales tax instead of an income tax, then they'd have no choice but to pay taxes :)

Still ought to either be rid of them (deport) or at least give them the chance to apply and become a citizen properly (w/background check) so they *do* contribute to society.

[longeyes]

To use an old engineering term: you are dead-nuts on. The ruling class will find out real quick several factors of which it has been oblivious

--American nationalism is on the rise
--Globalism is not a done deal and accepted by the Great Fed Up
--The War on Islamofascist Terrormongers and border security are one and the same in the mind of the Great Fed Up (GFU).
--The threat to the culture of the GRU is great but the ruling class sees no problem. A schism of biblical proportions which will be exposed.

Dead-nuts on is right.

Because the jack-booted thugs asking every brown person in America for [insert Gestapo voice HERE] "papers" are likely to be armed.

Uh, not exactly: The "jack-booted thugs" are expropriating money and property from working citizens of the USA to pay off illegal invaders.

[Ukraine Train]

Ultimate irony: pay the illegals to build a wall along the entire border.

[Lupinus]

good idea UT lol

[longeyes]

Ultimate irony: pay the illegals to build a wall along the entire border.

Yes. But will it be up to code?

[TheEgg]

This is one of those critical issues that will show once and for all if this country can be fixed by its current political system and a healthy dose of realism, or it is really too late for anything but a rapid decline followed by violent rebirth.

I get the feeling that democratic governments are pretty helpless in the face of mass movements, like the flow of labor from south to north. I wonder if anything that can be done within the bounds of our current law/morality/culture will have much influence here?

[Ezekiel]

I wonder if anything that can be done within the bounds of our current law/morality/culture will have much influence here?


I'm thinking the answer is a big "no". Hence the cure will be worse then the illness if hardcore conservative elements have their way. "Nothing like protecting a perceived American way of life by radically changing America."

(1.) Uh, not exactly: The "jack-booted thugs" are expropriating money and property from working citizens of the USA to pay off illegal invaders.

vs.

(2.) Lets see $6 an hour vs. $18 an hour, could it be Americans don't want to work for reduced wages?

1. If we knee-jerk this thing, we're the thugs. ("Ver art der papers?")

2. That's pretty much the key.

Americans need to understand that a GED equals working at Denny's and/or accepting reduced wages. When Americans work for $6, jobs don't go to others. Hell, what these jobless doofus-types haven't figured out is -- even if every alien in the country were instantly deported -- someone has to work thier jobs! (So they're right back at $6.) It's not as if the social sloths are going to get bumped to the head of the class.

Border security and nationalism are not the answer. Not being lazy, uneducated, beer-swilling NASCAR fans who eat five meals a week at McDonald's is the answer. Consumerism consumes. If John Q. cannot compete, it's [b]his[/b/] fault.

Why do folks by foreign cars? "Better value." Why do aliens fare well in working-class society? "Same deal." Americans are lazy. The answer lies not in some inquisition to determine who has the legal right to be here (geez). Personally? If folks' ancestors didn't meet the Marflower from the shore, their just being hypocrites.

"Buck up."

[KriegHund]

Mr. Bush wants to secure America's borders and get tough on illegal immigrants, but still fill the need for foreign workers.

I know of plenty of natural born americans that can fill that job need.

Oh, wait...you wont pay them minimum wage? youll only pay .50$ an hour? Oh...well...

Knaves all around....

"resident Bush is opposed to granting amnesty to illegal (immigrants) already in the country and so is Senator McCain. He says his bill would require illegal immigrants to pay a $2,000 fine so they can apply for a tamper proof identification card before they can be eligible to work."

Right, becuase thatll work so well. Instead, well end up with even more poor people...or wait, i know! OMG!

Theyll keep being illegal immigrants.

"But not tough enough for the head of the National Border Patrol council. The union which represents more than 10,000 border patrol agents wants all illegal immigration halted."

There ya go!

[wingman]

If we went to a flat sales tax instead of an income tax, then they'd have no choice but to pay taxes



You assume they spend all money in the USA.

[longeyes]

Border security and nationalism are not the answer. Not being lazy, uneducated, beer-swilling NASCAR fans who eat five meals a week at McDonald's is the answer. Consumerism consumes. If John Q. cannot compete, it's [b]his[/b/] fault.

Why do folks by foreign cars? "Better value." Why do aliens fare well in working-class society? "Same deal." Americans are lazy. The answer lies not in some inquisition to determine who has the legal right to be here (geez). Personally? If folks' ancestors didn't meet the Marflower from the shore, their just being hypocrites.

Are Mexican illegals "lazy" when they drain the taxpayer's treasury for welfare checks for their kids, use free public education, or get no-charge medical care? Answer: YES.

Every country in the world is, according to you, conducting an "inquisition" to determine if people within its borders are "legal." What a crock.

[cloudkiller]

Are Mexican illegals "lazy" when they drain the taxpayer's treasury for welfare checks for their kids, use free public education, or get no-charge medical care? Answer: YES.

What percentage of illegals do you think this is? Again, I agree it is a problem, but I think we are looking at the minority. There are localized problems with this specific issue (particularly healthcare), but in many industries, such as construction and agriculture, the Mexican population really is filliing a huge vacuum. The wages aren't the only issue. The work ethic is. Mexican workers have a great reputation for a strong work ethic.

I guess my biggest question is this:

What does it mean when the people that MOST believe in the American dream aren't Americans?

Also, why are we blaming immigrants instead of the forces that drive them here and hire them?

Don't be fooled into blaming the wrong end of the economic food chain.

[Didorian]

Quote:But members of the Hispanic community, the largest and fastest growing minority in the US, say illegal immigrants take jobs Americans don't want.
Entire industries such as agriculture and construction rely on cheap immigrant labor.

Yea.... I tried to get a job in construction on two seperate ocasions in two different states... I was turned down, one said they had all the people they needed, (Group of hispanics standing in the back ground talking, no einglish being heard) And the other said that I wasn't qualified because I lacked a CDL (you don't need a CDL to operate a bulldozer or a front end loader.And again, a group of hispanic males standing behind him, and THIS guy need an interpriter just to talk to them.:cuss:
I keep hearing that they don't "Take" jobs from other americans.... Well it's not like these jobs that they are doing are NEW... like someone just created them so that illegals would have somthing to do.
And it's not that these are jobs that americans don't want..... it's that Americans want to be paid for what they are actually doing.
It pisses me OFF!!!!:banghead: :fire: :banghead: :fire:

[beerslurpy]

the ruling class is out of touch with the GFU

Ding ding ding. You would think this sort of disconnect would be impossible in the age of the internet, but apparently they think that the people have no teeth.

Such foolishness provides fertile ground for new leadership to take hold.

[longeyes]

What does it mean when the people that MOST believe in the American dream aren't Americans?



Let's not get carried away. America is not being carried on the backs of illegal aliens. They are hamburger helper, not the meat.

[chris in va]

The illegals are masters of hiding. There's no way anything the gov't comes out with will be enforced, billions of $ or not.

I like the idea of cracking down on the employers hiring them. Big fat fine, they'll think twice. Hit the root of the problem, they'll deport themselves...maybe to Canada.

I just recently moved to another town more innocent of illegal issues. I feel bad for them as they are totally ignorant of the tidal wave heading right for it. People here ask why on earth I carry, and I say, "oh, just wait. You'll see."

Machete attacks, gang beatings, murders in broad daylight...ogling all the local kids like they were top sirloin. Oh God, I don't want to see that here.:cuss:

[fourays2]

so does anyone expect this "war on" to be more sucessful than the other wars on terra/some drugs/poverty?

[JamisJockey]

What the hell? Whos going to cut my grass now?


































:neener:

[longeyes]

Maybe the same person who will cut off your head in a few years...

[DelayedReaction]

You assume they spend all money in the USA.

If they're not being taxed now, any money they spend here will result in increased tax revenue.

What scares me is exactly how large of a number 11-22 million really is. America has a population of about 295 million. If those estimates are true, then between 4% and 7% of the population is here illegally. Even if the Census doesn't count illegals, that still leaves the percentage between 3% and 7%.

Illegal immigration is a major, major problem. Why don't people see that?

[longeyes]

Illegal immigration is a major, major problem. Why don't people see that?

Maybe the same reason they don't see our indebtedness as a major, major problem or the way that the next generation is being politically brainwashed through our "education" system.

Too busy making a buck, keeping the family happy, channel-surfing.

[Biker]

It is estimated by most sources, that illegals from Mexico sent 14 billion US dollars back to Mex last year instead of spending it here. Quite likely, a good portion of that money was spent to bring family members up to the US where they will suck even more resources from us in the form of many, many social programs available to illegals, especially if they happen to drop an 'anchor baby' on American soil.
But our Pols don't care that the middle class in our country is an endangered species due largely to this problem, only that their corporate buddies profit from the cheap labor and that they gain the hispanic vote. This is one of the main reasons why I finally left the Repubs and started voting 3rd party last election.
Biker

[longeyes]

+1

I suspect that there are really 20 million illegals in the U.S. We've been seeing two to three million coming over every year in the last couple of administrations. Do the math. Yeah, it's a big percentage now of our population. But figure that 20 per cent of Mexico now lives, illegally, on our side of the border.

[Jammer Six]

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

:cool:

[longeyes]

Jammer Six,

You're right: GOING SOUTH!:neener:

[Biker]

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

:cool:
Sack up and answer my question, Jammer. It's in my sig, in case you didn't notice.
Biker
;)

[Waitone]

But our Pols don't care that the middle class in our country is an endangered species due largely to this problem, only that their corporate buddies profit from the cheap labor and that they gain the hispanic vote.The middle class represents a tremendous pool of wealth not directly controlled by those who would rule us. If the endgame of politics is the control of wealth it is clear the middle class must be controlled (as a minimum) or destroyed. This is the dead elephant in the living room which no one what to acknowledge. There are those who want the American middle class destroyed seeing it as the way to level the playing field among the the US and other countries. Bring the US down and raise other countries up.

How do you destroy the American middle class? Simple really. Impose confiscatory taxation, tie medical care to employment, make medical care unaffordable when self-paid, bring in foreign workers who are not part of the system and pay no taxes but use social services out the wazoo, make it virtually impossible to get a job past a certain age, use low rate workers in manual jobs which puts pressure on skilled manual workers, bring professional skilled workers in from other parts of the world putting pressure on middle income professionals, and finally turn a blind eye to massive voter fraud.

Make no mistake. Illegal immigration is the primary means by which the economic power of the country will be levelled. Illegal immigration involves far more than "hard working people doing a job most Americans won't do". Americans are smart enough and sufficiently informed to sort though the pile of BS dropped by the ruling class. That is why I think this debate over "immigration reform" could get a little testy.

BTW, an investment banking outfit (Goldman Sachs, IIRC) took a detailed look at the underground economy and concluded the real population of illegal immigrants is more llike 30 million.

[longeyes]

Kill the middle-class and you kill America--that's it in essence.

In these pages I've called illegal immigration the ultimate form of body-snatching; it represents, carried to its ultimate, the swapping-out of a "recalcitrant" American population for a more docile and dependent one easily manipulable by the globalist elites.

Just as our core ideas are being replaced in the schools, our population itself is also being replaced.

[KriegHund]

Dang, lots of very good opinions in this thread. A good read.

I wish some of you people could be on the stand when immigration is decided once and for all.

[wingman]

Make no mistake. Illegal immigration is the primary means by which the economic power of the country will be levelled. Illegal immigration involves far more than "hard working people doing a job most Americans won't do". Americans are smart enough and sufficiently informed to sort though the pile of BS dropped by the ruling class. That is why I think this debate over "immigration reform" could get a little testy.


Illegal immigration combined with outsourcing, and shipping all manufacturing
jobs to the third world will in time have the effect of killing the middleclass,
I don't care how educated you are, skill level, it does present a whole new
way of life for America. My only question is why, greed, ignorance, or plotting
a course for a new way of life in our country.:confused: ?

[Jammer Six]

What amuses me is that those jos that Americans won't do include high paying, skilled jobs, as well as lower and mid management.

A larger work force is a stronger country. :cool:

[Biker]

What amuses me is that those jos that Americans won't do include high paying, skilled jobs, as well as lower and mid management.

A larger work force is a stronger country. :cool:
It amuses me that that you won't answer a simple, honest question. You keep dancing your dance and all you do is go in circles.
So, Jammersix, do you hire illegals? Hmmmm?
Biker

[Biker]

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

:cool:
Said the parasite to the host...

Biker

[CAnnoneer]

Jammer Six,

Papieren bitte!

[RocketMan]

...or at least give them the chance to apply and become a citizen properly (w/background check) so they *do* contribute to society.

How many actually want to become American citizens? How many actually care? I suspect very few.
I'm betting many would become American citizens in name only, still tendering their first (or only) real loyalties to Mexico.

[RocketMan]

(2.) Lets see $6 an hour vs. $18 an hour, could it be Americans don't want to work for reduced wages?

2. That's pretty much the key.

Americans need to understand that a GED equals working at Denny's and/or accepting reduced wages. When Americans work for $6, jobs don't go to others. Hell, what these jobless doofus-types haven't figured out is -- even if every alien in the country were instantly deported -- someone has to work thier jobs! (So they're right back at $6.) It's not as if the social sloths are going to get bumped to the head of the class.

Border security and nationalism are not the answer. Not being lazy, uneducated, beer-swilling NASCAR fans who eat five meals a week at McDonald's is the answer. Consumerism consumes. If John Q. cannot compete, it's [b]his[/b/] fault..

Ezekiel,

You missed the point completely. And thanks for slamming NASCAR fans. Nice broad elitist brush strokes, fellah.

Folks cannot afford to work $6 an hours jobs where they used to be paid $18 for the same work. Illegal immigration distorts wage/productivity ratios in every industry it enters. It is no longer limited to "jobs Americans are too lazy to do."
Illegal immigrants are finding their way into construction work, electrical assembly, onto factory floors, into warehouses, auto repair, and other places where jobs used to pay productive workers a good wage. Hell, they've even started repairing aircraft for national airlines (witness the recent II bust in North Carolina).

It is a much larger problem than many are willing to admit. Illegals aren't just mowing lawns or picking fruit anymore.

And as long as there are no real sanctions for employers who decide to hire illegals over citizens or legal residents, the problem will only get worse.
(Yeah, there are laws against hiring illegals, but are they enforced in more than a token manner? Nope.)

[Ezekiel]

You missed the point completely. And thanks for slamming NASCAR fans. Nice broad elitist brush strokes, fellah.

Say what you will: I railed against beer-swillers (like myself), too. Besides, any so-called driving sport that merely involves turning left is LAME. That's not elitist, that's truth.

Folks cannot afford to work $6 an hours jobs where they used to be paid $18 for the same work. Illegal immigration distorts wage/productivity ratios in every industry it enters.

Being paid $18 hourly to turn a screw at any given UAW plant indicates that wage/productivity ratios were off long before immigration enters the equation. Folks cannot afford the decrease because they have been unwise and do nt possess requisite skills to effectively compete at other jobs. Such is their fault, not someone else's.

It is a much larger problem than many are willing to admit. Illegals aren't just mowing lawns or picking fruit anymore.

Oh, I see. So long as they do not intrude into "demeaning" and "subserviant" positions, it's okay? (Basically, jobs citizens do not desire.) Ridiculous! Why? Because -- while many noncompetitive and sloth-like folks [most against multiculturalism fear this in some manner] want to close our borders in an isolationist and nationalistic frenzy -- they fail to take into account that the standard of "unintended consequences" will far outway any potential "gains" to be made by hardcore mobilizing against border entry.

You missed the point completely.

No, I am just willing to approach it from outside a box of venomous protectionism.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept that some $$$ (millions, if not billions or trillions!) is being "lost" in this translation. I just firmly believe substantially more funds will be lost -- along with our percieved national identity as a "free country" -- if we knee-jerk this approach into tightly controlled (with papers!) rhetoric.

[TMAS]

I still believe in punishing people who break the law, not giving them special privilages over the people trying to come here legally.

I find it shameful and a disgrace that any member of the executive branch, from the chiefs of police to the POTUS has willfully done very little to stop illegal immigration and some have gone as far as aiding the illegals. IMO

Bush will probably cave into the left and throw a bunch of money towards the border states, create some new agencies, and mask a blanket anesty.

I have lost faith in almost all our politicians.

[longeyes]

No, I am just willing to approach it from outside a box of venomous protectionism.

There's something deeply ironic about a statement like this on a forum dedicated to self-protection.

There's laissez-faire economics and there's warrior economics. We'll see which, in the longer run, prevails.

[wingman]

As it stands now we protect nothing, perhaps, it may be time for a
little America first.:mad:

[Jammer Six]

Folks cannot afford to work $6 an hours jobs where they used to be paid $18 for the same work. Illegal immigration distorts wage/productivity ratios in every industry it enters. It is no longer limited to "jobs Americans are too lazy to do."

They're not "$18 an hour" jobs.

They're jobs.

The moment someone is willing to do the same job for $6 an hour, they become $6 an hour jobs.

And it most certainly IS limited to jobs Americans are too lazy to do.

Lately, those jobs have been things like carpenter and carpenter's foreman.

:cool:

[Otherguy Overby]

Say what you will: I railed against beer-swillers (like myself), too. Besides, any so-called driving sport that merely involves turning left is LAME. That's not elitist, that's truth.



You, sir, are a fool and an elitist racing biggot. You probably even think stagger has something to do with the cheep beer you swill.

Go crew on a sprint car for a while and come back and tell us how lame it is.

Just go ahead and tell someone who got a bad case of red eye from crashing his sport is lame.

Insults are down the hall.

[Biker]

The moment they become $6 an hour jobs to illegal mexicans who suck off the govt teat in one form or another (or many), thus making up for the loss in wages. Their parasitical employers profit at the expense of the taxpayer. So Jammer Six, are you a parasitical employer of illegals? Are you honest enough to answer either way?
Biker

[Ezekiel]

You, sir, are a fool and an elitist racing biggot. You probably even think stagger has something to do with the cheep beer you swill.

Oh my. "Touched a nerve, did I?"

First, "I drink GOOD beer." Second, "stagger" involves minimizing an automobiles ability to function as an automobile and turning it into a counter-clockwise troglodyte. Truly sir, enjoy your left-turning corporate shell game.

Just go ahead and tell someone who got a bad case of red eye from crashing his sport is lame.

"Your sport is lame." (Presuming it involves reducing the turning ability of a given automobile by 50%.) See how easy that was?

Insults are down the hall.

"Then you may begin walking." I'm staying here.

To get back to the point:

There's something deeply ironic about a statement like this on a forum dedicated to self-protection.

May I ask why? In all seriousness -- as opposed to my somewhat sarcastic comments above -- I was not aware that hardcore, selfish, self-righteous and "personal" protectionism was the ultimate key to the RKBA. Frankly, I think it should definitely be abridged for some individuals. Noting that, how can such a statement be ironic?

[Art Eatman]

Life begins at 180. :D

This thread is dead.

Art