A bit of an "encounter" this evening... (long)

[Rezin]

Did a few things right, did a few things wrong.

I live in the last apt in a small building. RIGHT next door is my motorcycle shop, and 2 doors down is a bar...

Behind my apt, is a large field and a few cars parked (my cars, neighbors, etc.) we often get drunks coming and going out of the bar, that can't resist spinning their wheels, and tossing rocks everywhere... and lately, they have been blocking in out cars as well.

Tonight, We hear the typical engine spininng, wheels spinning, rocks flying, but this one guy, he's really having fun... Sliding around sideways etc.... He leaves, no biggie.

10 Mins later, he is back. Enters the same way he left (sliding sideways etc..), and stops right behind my car, and blocks it in..

I go out (wrong choice 1) but I leave my gun on the table (probably the right choice) and say "Hey man, can you move your truck, you are blocking me in." I was loud, but polite. He looks at his friend and laughs, and says "Yeah, I'll move it at 1 or 2 when we leave the bar."

At this point I go to the car, and say, "see man, you are blocking me in...." but he ignores me, and heads for the back door of the bar.

I decide that since the owner of the bar is our landlord for both the apartment, and our business property, I'll go into the bar, and see if he'll tell this guy to move his truck....

He is in there, I walk in a (relatively) calmly explain that this guy was driving crazy, and then blocked me in, and when I asked, he ignored me. Thought maybe he could help....

Well, truck dude jumps in my face in the bar.. says things like, Lets go outside etc. Typical blowhard stuff. I notice I am surrounded. Don't know most of them. But the bartender, and my landlord and his wife are all telling dude to back down.

He continues to get in my face, various threats etc. I found myself reach back to my normal carry position.... I dunno why, since I know I left it at home (suddenly maybe this was the WRONG choice....)

My landlord caught this. Looked at me and shook his head no.. I nodded, and put my shirt down. (I didn't exagerate any movements or anything to make it seem to the "threat" that I was packing or not.

I leaned back on the pool table, and remained as calm as I could.. Had a rush of adrenaline going, but not too bad. He would walk away, and then come back.

I never antagonized him, or acted like "oh yeah" etc, like I proabably would have done in the past.... I did try to reason with him, explain what was up etc...

Yeah, I tried to reason with a drunk. lol.... That's when I thought, "out" I knew I should leave ASAP... and tried to think of the best way. I asked the bartender for a phone. They don't HAVE one.......

Some other dide got between us, I think was a friend of his. He said to me something like I should go, as this guy would knock me out or something........ Yeah. Big drunk guy, me cornered, unarmed. Lots of noise, spectatiors etc.

I looked at the people I knew, shrugs, and noticed the path to the door was clear. I said fuggit and went out the back. I got out of the bar, and (ashamedly) jogged back to my apt....

I opened the door, and (BAD) told my wife to give me my gun..

she said, "now, you can't escalate this. Don't go back./.."

Amazingly, I knew she was right. Even rushed with adreneline.. I put my pitol on, and sat down on the couch to finish my movie.

We decided to go take a photo of his truck, in case he vandalized my car, but as we were coming out, they were all leaving..... we stood there for a min or two, and went in.

Took only a few mins to calm down... I didn't over react.

The things I don't like: I went for my gun... sort of... It wasn't there, but if it was.... would I have pulled it? I think it may have been a bit early if that were the case, so I am re-evaluating my carry habits etc. I dunno WHY I put my hand there... I don't like the fact that I did tho...

I also should have stayed inside. Really, in the grand sceme, who cares if they turf some gravel..... But it is annoying, and I have asked folks to move their trucks/cars before. Every other time it's been "oh, sorry man." or "sure thing." I didn't expect confrontation.

I shouldn't have escalated it by entering the bar to get their help, but thought I'd have backup there as well (and did) Figguered a good word from them would sooth things a bit. (it didn't, lol)

I really hate my hasty exit..... I should have not "quick stepped"... still feel a lil twinge of "wuss" there...

I most certainly should have never thought to go back armed.... it was fleeting, but it was there.

The things I did right. I LEFT THE GUN IN THE HOUSE and I didn't go back after I made an "escape"

I didn't antagonise him, or anyone else, I remained calm for the most part.

I'll see my Landlord tomorrow (new carpet w00t!) and see what his take on it was....... I am especially interested in what he saw.... Knowing I am usually armed.

I also wonder if I'll see this guy again, since he seems to have known me (was using my first name at the bar. I have a VAUGE recolection of seeing him before) and presumably knows of my shop next door....... Lets hope he wakes up and either regrets it, or has no memory....

[nfl1990]

I dunno WHY I put my hand there... I don't like the fact that I did tho...


Same reason a person during the middle ages might rest his hand on his sword hilt, it's comforting to know that your method of defending yourself is right where it should be.

I think that you were right in going out to ask the guy to move, but should have brought your CCW with, (had he been carrying, and drawn you'd have been screwed, heck even if he wasn't 4 or 5 guys could beat you pretty even if were drunk.

[nfl1990]

by any chance is there an icecream place in between the motercycle shop, and bar?

[MechAg94]

Is getting the car towed an option?

Yeah, asking is no problem. Shouldn't have pursued. Picking a fight when you know you are armed is bad, even if you didn't really do that. Also, pulling a gun when you are not actually in danger yet might not be too good. Especially in a bar. At least in Texas, carrying in a bar would be a no no.

[Rezin]

by any chance is there an icecream place in between the motercycle shop, and bar?
Nope...

[Lupinus]

reaching for your gone wasn't a bad thing. You went in there for a legit reason, to try and get his truck moved, and he threatened you. That is what carrying a gun is for. Kicker is most state cwp laws I have seen forbid carrying into a place where alcohol is served.

So frankly you didn't do anything wrong IMO. You tried asking nicly, didn't work so you went to ask the owner of the bar to ger the guy to move the truck. Not a bad move either. When he got in your face and you felt threatened your reached for your gun which wasn't there. NOT a bad move. Now not being there I don't know the level of threat but speaking in general terms- you were threatned you went for your gun thats what it is there for. If you carry a gun but wont use it to protect yourself then you might as well leave it at home and save youself the trouble. Now that said you also left it at home going into a bar which was a good move as it is usualy illegal from the laws I have read.

You stayed cool you stayed calm and you kept a situation from escalating into a bar brawl. You did go home and pick up the gun thinking of going back. Was that wrong? Likly but you exorcised the self restraint to not go do it.

So you tried asking, you tried asking someone else, when you were threatend you instintivly reached for your gun even though it wasn't there, you kept a calm head even though charged with adrenalin kept the situation from escalting and even if it hurt your pride left through the back door.

All fine and well with not a thing wrong. Only a splotch wrong and that was picking up the gun intending to go back in there which you didn't so any wrong from that is negligable. My advise is if its still there or the next time he parks behind your car call the police non emergency number to see if they deal with cars blocking you in to tow, if not ask if they have the number of a towing service that will tow at the vehicle owners expense if blocking you in.

[Lupinus]

I think that you were right in going out to ask the guy to move, but should have brought your CCW with, (had he been carrying, and drawn you'd have been screwed, heck even if he wasn't 4 or 5 guys could beat you pretty even if were drunk.
Risk assment comes in here along with local law. As I said in last post the states I have looked into the concealed laws prohibit carrying into a buisness where alcohol is sold to be consumed on the premisis.

[Rezin]

Risk assment comes in here along with local law. As I said in last post the states I have looked into the concealed laws prohibit carrying into a buisness where alcohol is sold to be consumed on the premisis.
For the record, you can carry in a bar here (PA). The thought of entering the bar wasn't there when I left the gun. This was "suppsoed" to be a:

"Yo man, can you back up a bit?"

"sure man, sorry"



Who needs a gun for that?

Proof again, that ANYTHING can turn into a situation.......

[Lupinus]

ah ok Rez misunderstood

In that case you did a messup in that you left the gun

But it still was no where near a mistake to reach or at least put your hand clsoe to where your gun normally would be by instinct.

Think of it in terms of a martial artist. There isn't much sense in learning them if when threatened you wont use the skills you have. As the martial artist would have taken a ready stance to defend himself you took a ready stance to draw your gun same thing in my book. Also same thing in so far as if you had the gun and drew it. I don't advocate just drawing a gun at the slightist hint of conflict but when threatend you are threatend. Would you rather pull the gun and defuse the situation by the guy knowing he was outgunned or let it escalate untill the guy charged you possibly wit ha weapon and you had no choice but to shoot? Not for brandishing at the drop of a hat but I'd rather draw and defuse the situation jsut from the sight of my gun if I could rather then having to shoot the guy.

[walking arsenal]

Meh, this sort of deal happens to me al the time, i have an odd driveway that routinely gets blocked in. If i see the guy i ask him politley to move his vehicle, once, if he refuses i have it towed at his expense. Simple enough.

[XavierBreath]

So this guy slides into a gravel parking area slinging gravel all over your vehicle. You own a motorcycle shop.
Am I the only one wondering why he still had a windsheild in that truck when he returned?

As far as the rest, I can't judge or second guess you. You know what you did wrong and won't do again. You don't need me to tell you that. Your desire to go back armed was natural. Your decision not to was maturity managing your pride. Good man.

[Lupinus]

Xav-
Because not all bikers are animals...now don't get me wrong I'd be tempted to but the "Hey your a biker why didn't you smash his windshield" thing is bogus. I grew up around bikers. Some of them are outright animals, some are somewhat animals but have redeaming qualities, some of really nice guys but you don't want to mess with them cause they will finish it, and then a good portion of them are big teddy bears in leather.

Sorry if I took that the wrong way, but the "biker" stereotypes annoy the hell outa me.

[Rezin]

So this guy slides into a gravel parking area slinging gravel all over your vehicle. You own a motorcycle shop.
Am I the only one wondering why he still had a windsheild in that truck when he returned?
I went that route when I was a younger, stupider me... Now, I try to be "Mr. upstanding business owner." It's hard sometimes, lol.....

[Lupinus]

I never went through my young stupid phase...I have the camaro and have fun with it on occasion I limit myself to that lol.

But I know all to well how much a cop loves a kid in a camaro.

[Adept]

From what you've told us, I think you handled the situation reasonably well.

It's hard to say how you might have handled it better without actually being in the bar with you. Things like maintaining distance, keeping your back covered and using verbal de-escalation technqiues all depend on the minute details.

[NineseveN]

This is one of those "fine line" situations.

I mostly agree with the way you assessed it, except, I would have had my sidearm on me. I carry it always, everywhere, even to the shower (not in the shower, but in the bathroom while I am taking one).

Not having your gun on you may have played a role in your decision to go into the bar. When I have my gun on me, again which is always, I keep it in mind for every situation. My thoughts and actions may have looked something like this:

Should I go out and ask him to move? Yes, just because I carry does not mean I have to hide in my apartment.

Asking him to move did not work. Should I go into the bar after him? Do I really want to have to shoot someone. He already expressed his opposition to courtesy, perhaps going in there where he is amongst friends is a bad idea. I'll call the police and tell them I think a drunk driver just hit my car and parked behind it. I went out to ask him, but he seemed aggravated and I did not want to escalate the issue. I could not get a good look at my car. He is driving around laying tire and throwing gravel and been doing this for a little bit now, going in and out of the bar.

Dial 9.1.1.

Watch a movie until the coppers arrive.


For the record, I live in a situation that is VERY similar to the OP's (bar next door, huge lot out back etc...). I don't want to have to draw on someone, but I won't stand for my property being threatened either. Call the cops. The only time 9.1.1. is a bad option is if the threat is immediate, then evade or slide lock. If you have to embellish, just like concerned neighbors that hear something spooky out near their homes say they think they "saw" a prowler, well, that's how you get traction sometimes. Not honest, not wrong. YMMV.

[KC&97TA]

Before I'd gone to Iraq I'd offer to throw down with the neighbors if they were disturbing the peace. I even had the Apartment rent a cops called on me.

After the first tour in Iraq, I hardly ever waste my breath. I've called the Police on my neighbors several times, that's what I pay taxes for right? Domestic assault has so far been the worst, 3x for the apartment up stairs and 2x for the one next door. I've actually been on the brink of kicking in a door and holding the dude next door at gun point till the police arrived.

I had a convosation with one of the police officers and he asked me if I had it in me to pull the trigger, since I was back in the land of the big PX, I told him " yes I do and I'd enjoy doing it, but that's why you're here I'm avoiding haveing to do that".

You did everything right, except you know now that it maybe better to try and video tape the crime and then call the police. That's why you pay taxes right?

[Devonai]

If I was just sitting around watching a movie I would have called the police. If I had somewhere to go right at that moment, I would have gone inside to ask the guy to move. Since I always carry where legal, I would have been armed. The moment the guy copped an attitude I would have gone home and called the police.

The next day I'd go find myself a couple of old rims, stick a pole in each and put up two signs on either side of my driveway that read "Do not block driveway."

[Cosmoline]

I'd say move. Living next to a shady bar is bad enough. Living next to a shady bar owned by your landlord is worse. It seriously reduces the leverage you might have if the bar were owned by a third party. For example, can you call the cops on your landlord's bar? Can you sue your landlord's bar? Most people don't want to anger their landlord that way.

Beyond that, having bar drunks coming and going next to your turf is bad business. They're the worst of the worst. Face it--only a complete loser gets drunk at a dive bar. They're the kind of scum you might have to put some bullets in, even if what you thought was a knife was a hairbrush. Good for the gene pool, but bad for you.

[rock jock]

You ever hear of, oh, you know.....the POLICE??

[hso]

Not bad on handling the situation, but you should have called the owner of the bar instead of going in where the drunk jackasses were know to be.

With the history of the problem you need to move if you can't find a place to park where this isn't a problem or the landlord won't put up a fence for a parking area for the apartment.

[clt46910]

These kind of post reminds me why I moved way out in the country....

Personally I would have only asked him to move. Following him into the bar looking for help from landlord or anyone was a mistake. IF you really wanted it to be moved, I would have called the cops and tow company. File a report of possible reckless driving by a drunk. Have the car towed.

While it is a "Whuss" feeling to have to walk away from an loudmouthed dumba$$ drunk, it was the best choice. Maturity comes with understanding it was the right choice, even though you wanted to "kick his A$$", and "Whuss" feeling that sometimes comes with it.

As far as reaching for your gun. I personally feel that was an mistake also. Not a good habit to get into in a crowded bar. If you had pulled it what would have stopped someone from shooting you? You would have been the one to pull a gun, they felt "in fear of their life" and defended themself. May have been a guy sitting at the bar minding his own business watching the argument. You pull your gun and he shoots you to stop your threat. He may have felt he was in the right to use deady force to protect others from "death or serious injury".

The one question I do have is why did you feel the need to have him move his car? Was you going anywhere or felt you might? Personally I would have not given a damn unless I was wanting to leave.

[Rezin]

You ever hear of, oh, you know.....the POLICE??

For example, can you call the cops on your landlord's bar?


That's about my take on it... Been here for years, it SUPER easy for my buisiness (Living next door to work rules!) and it's a nice little town. Usually it's great here. Just a few whackos here and there... This guy being one, lol.

[Rezin]

The one question I do have is why did you feel the need to have him move his car? Was you going anywhere or felt you might? Personally I would have not given a damn unless I was wanting to leave.

The movie was over in 30-40 mins, and I had to run out to the store......... Figured "catch em now while they are there, and they can move the truck right then and there.........."

Like I said, I've had to ask a few folks to move, and they are always polite, usually apologetic.........

[reality]

fighting, so that a gun is not your only defensive move. I'd have kicked his nuts up past his ears when he tried to get in my face. If you let someone within arm's reach, he can hit you before you can do a thing about it, if he has any hand speed at all. Best lay it on him before he gets that close.

[Biker]

He was in a bar surrounded by the ahole's friends. Sucks, but he would've lost that one unless he was Bruce Lee and most of us aren't. I bounced for years in some rough bars and things don't work out in real life like they do in the dojo.
Fight the battles you can win.
Biker

[Lupinus]

If some drunk and a few of his buddies are threatning me I have no problem pulling a gun thats what its there for.

It isn't there to wave around for no reason, but it is there to protect yourself just like any other way you would learn to protect yourself. You just happen to have choosen a gun and a gun is a lot more effective agianst a large group then martial arts.

[chris in va]

C'mon guys, all he had to do was

A: talk to the bar manager (he did)
B: call the cops (didn't)
C: get the car towed.

No guns, no confrontations...go back to bed. See, this is why I don't drink. People make asses of themselves.

[EddieCoyle]

I have no problem pulling a gun thats what its there for.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have a concealed carry permit.



Rezin,
You're in a tough spot there friend. The obvious thing would've been to call the cops. However, since the bar is owned by the landlord of not only your apartment but also your business, you're smack between the proverbial rock and hard place. No telling what the law would have found had they gone into the bar (out of you LL's control but still his problem). Have you thought about finding a quieter place to live/set up shop?

[Lupinus]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have a concealed carry permit.
No I don't I'm not 21 yet.

But do try reading right below that-

It isn't there to wave around for no reason, but it is there to protect yourself just like any other way you would learn to protect yourself.

Do try to take the entire thing in context rather then a part of it.

[EddieCoyle]

Do try to take the entire thing in context rather then a part of it.

I read the whole thing. Are you saying that (if you had a gun) you would have gone in to that bar and pulled your gun when the guy got into your face?

[Lupinus]

if the guy looked like he was about to start whaling at me or threatened me absoloutly, esspecialy when he has a bunch of buddies with them.

NOT there to wave around. In other words not to be puleld out because he makes a smart comment. But if he looks like he is about to try and kick my ass that gun will come out thats what its there for. Or would you prefer to leave your gun holstered and get into a fight with him and some of his closest friends? The gun is there for protection so if you arn't going to use it to defend yourself there is no point in carrying it. Drunk rushs moves at me like he is going to do something your damn right Id pull the gun and point it right at his head.

[EddieCoyle]

Or would you prefer to leave your gun holstered and get into a fight with him and some of his closest friends? The gun is there for protection so if you arn't going to use it to defend yourself there is no point in carrying it. Drunk rushs moves at me like he is going to do something your damn right Id pull the gun and point it right at his head.

In this case I wouldn't pull it because I wouldn't have been in there, or if I did go into the bar, I would have gone in unarmed (as Rezin did).

OK, there's a belligerent drunk hanging with some of his buddies. If you pull a gun on him, what do you think is going to happen? Will he back down (and look bad in front of his "friends)? Doubtful. I've had enough experience with belligerent drunks like this to know that they seldom back down when alone; and never back down if it means looking bad in front of their buddies. If you go to bars when you're old enough, you'll see the dynamic I'm referring to. The short answer is that you would have had to shoot him.

Your prosecution would then go something like this:

1. The shooter had a verbal confrontation with the victim.
2. Rather than calling the police, the shooter went home and got a loaded gun.
3. The shooter followed the victim into a bar.
4. The shooter had another confrontation with the victim and shot him.

You would end up in prison.

For a similar situation and result, read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162338&page=2&highlight=windshield+wipers

or this one:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162917&highlight=bar+exam

I agree that a CCW is there for protection, and when you need it you should use it. However, if you get your gun and follow a drunk into a bar to continue an argument, or do something really stupid like pull it on a homeless person asking for change, you will at best lose your CCW permit, or in the worst case end up in prison.

Speaking for myself (and I've seen similar sentiments posted elewhere on this forum) that when I'm carrying, I'm way more likely to retreat or avoid putting myself in situations like this because escalation is likely, and escalation is likely to lead to gunplay. A responsible CCW holder will do all he can to avoid it.

[Lupinus]

He didn't go into the bar to confront the guy he went into the bar to talk to the owner of the bar. As I have said it wouldn't be pulled out for no reason it WOULD be pulled out when it appeared the guy was about to attack me.

And this-

I've had enough experience with belligerent drunks like this to know that they seldom back down when alone; and never back down if it means looking bad in front of their buddies. If you go to bars when you're old enough, you'll see the dynamic I'm referring to. The short answer is that you would have had to shoot him.
This I really hate, the your young or when you know stuff. I have interacted with drunks plenty thanks. My uncle is a alcoholic and is violent after he has a few drinks in him. I have had enough encounters and fights with a violently drunk person to know just fine. I have also been in enough bars and rather dislike them.

Agian, it would NOT be puleld till the guy made it pretty apparent he was about to wail on me. And I don't care if you are drunk or not I will pull a gun on you before I let you and some of your buddies beat the hell out of me just because you are drunk and the sight of the gun might not be enough to make you back down. Or am I supposed to wait till he and his buddies have jumped on me to bother pulling a gun?

Would the cops have been a good option? Sure. But he didn't go in confrontign the guy he went in asking the bar owner for help.

[EddieCoyle]

He didn't go into the bar to confront the guy he went into the bar to talk to the owner of the bar.

His intention doesn't matter. His actions, and the previous and ensuing series of events do. He could've gone into the bar to sell Girl Scout cookies and it wouldn't help him.

As I have said it wouldn't be pulled out for no reason it WOULD be pulled out when it appeared the guy was about to attack me.

By then, your fate would have already been sealed. You went home and got your gun and followed the guy into the bar. According to the law, what happens after that is your fault. Read those threads. The guy that went to prison was standing in his own yard when he shot a would-be thief that approached him with a raised tire iron.

[NineseveN]

His intention doesn't matter. His actions, and the previous and ensuing series of events do. He could've gone into the bar to sell Girl Scout cookies and it wouldn't help him.


The law is situational and varies from State to State. In PA, I believe his intentions do in fact matter. Now, going back home to get the gun would probably hurt his case, but if he had the gun on him the whole time in the first place (as many of us would, I carry all the time, even to get the mail), his intentions of talking to the bar owner, who is also his landlord and responsible for the property and lot would count for a great deal.

If he had not approached the drunk (which in this case, he did not), and the drunk came back to him to escalate the situation by threatening and then attempting physical violence, it is very likely this would have been ruled a good shoot.

The law asks that you avoid, and refrain from escalating, it does not say you must hide in your home if you have a handgun. The bar is a public place, not someone's private home. The Shooter would have had very legitimate business being there. His past history of criminal activity would also play into this, as would his observable mental state at the time according to witnesses. Had the shooter had no criminal past, and had his state been observed to be calm and collected, the shooter would likely suffer no felony charges.

Now, being that he left the gun at home, going back to get it and then going to the bar could show him to be looking for trouble. Not enough to convict on alone, but it does create an uphill battle for your attorney.


In your fist-linked thread, this sums it up:

Peterson was the first to display a weapon and this was deemed disproportional force for stopping the henious crime of windshield wiper theft. Because Peterson introduced lethal force into the scenario before there was any justification for it, he was held responsible for escalating it.


He was charged with manslaughter. Had the shooter kept the weapon concealed until after the attacker came at him with a tire iron, I'd bet good shoot any day of the week. He brandished a weapon when his life was not in danger. This has nothing to do with our discussion here. If the OP went outside and said, "move your truck" and waved a gun, then shot the guy a few minutes later, the shooter would be going to jail, same in this case.


In the other scenario, the physical attack and threat had already begun, prior to the shooter getting their firearm. Had he had his gun on him prior to that, despite being threatened by the attacker on more than one occasion and also being assaulted, he has every right to be a patron at that bar as the attacker does and it would have likely been a good shoot. There is no duty to hide. If you can escape, you do. The shooter in this case did escape and came back AFTER the assault had taken place.

In the original post in this thread, NO assault or threat had taken place. A person has no duty to be able to predict the future acts of another person. They also have no duty to avoid a public place due to a wildly possible threat from someone that has shown no aggression towards them. The drunk showed indifference, not aggression. Again, going back to get the gun prior to going into the bar is problematic for a jury, but it does not mean a slam-dunk felony.

Just because you are armed, you have no obligation to avoid places that you may need to use your firearm; otherwise, there would be nearly no scenario that would be a justifiable act of self-defense using a firearm.

If the OP shouldn't have had his gun going into a bar because he had a reasonable fear of physical violence and should have just stayed home, then:

No one could carry a gun into a bad neighborhood at night despite having a perfectly legal and legitimate reason for being there.

No one could carry a gun in the park where mugging and rapes occur; they would have a duty to stay home if armed.

I agree we need to consider the law, but let's not get carried away. The OP should have called the police, however, had he gone into the bar for a perfectly legitimate and legal reason, he only needs to convince a jury he was in reasonable fear of his life over the assault and his intent was not to escalate. Waving a firearm around threatening them is an escalation, shooting someone who is about to attack you with some of their buddies is not.

[Walt Rauch]

Call police. Document your problem. Ask them to help you move your car. Any movement toward the bar is just plain dumb. He already indicated he was not going to move his car. Fighting him is not an option unless he carries the fight to you; not likely if you stay in the house.

They might or might nor resolve the matter but you now have a record of attempting to solve the problem the "correct" way.

[Meta4]

I would pee on his door handle and go back to my movie. But that's just me.

-James

[grimjaw]

I'm not able to legally carry yet (will be in ~30 days tho :) ) so I wouldn't have had some of the options that you did. I'm also not a large enough guy to physically intimidate them just by my presence. I'd have to call the cops or a tow truck in that situation today.

But if I did have your options, you probably did better than I would have, given the situation. I've been lucky enough to avoid such situations most times.

It's also good that you are going back over your actions and seeing what you did right and wrong. A lesser man would not.

jmm

[Atticus]

Tow strap at Home Depot $35. Look on bunghole's face when he finds his car down the road in the ditch...priceless.

[Carlos]

Agreed. I would have said nothing, and either destroyed something on his vehicle or have done the nice thing and have had it towed away.

Pulling the piece would have been the worse day of your freedom loving life and perhaps the end of the same freedom.

[Daniel Flory]

Rezin,

I post on CF as "ronin308", I didn't know you posted on THR! Anyway, as others have said, I think the only mistake was leaving your gun on the table. But considering the circumstances, you did everything else right by diffusing the situation. I've changed my mindset because some people get extremely worked up over nothing. I don't want to fight for nothing but I want to go to the hospital or morgue for nothing even less.

[Jeff White]

I personally don't see any reason to go into the bar to try to resolve the situation. I would have called the police, explained that my vehicle was blocked in and ask if they could resolve the situation.

The responding officers would have most likely went to the scene, ran the plates to get the guys name, had dispatch call the bar and get him on the phone and then told him to move his truck or it would have to be towed. If he would have still balked they would have towed his truck, he'd have been on foot and out for towing and storage.

Why start another confrontation? Attitudes, tempers, alcohol and firearms makes a concoction that more often then not ends up tragically.

Jeff

[Lupinus]

I agree calling the police was a viable soloution as well but some people prefer resolving things without the police. Going to ask the owner of the bar was an equally viable choice IMO. Remember he didn't go in the bar to confront the guy he went in the bar to talk to the owner if he had gone to confront the guy that would have been a different matter entirly, he stopped himself from spacificly going to confront the guy after he walked out of the bar minus some pride.

And Ican see not want to anger your landlord when not jsut your home but your buisness and vice versa has the deed to the property of both..and I know a lot of landlords that would get mighty tweaked over calling to have his customers vehicles towed even if the customers were wrong. It unfortunate but it is true.

Both ways were equaly viable considering he didn't go to confront the guy he went to speak with the manager. If he had gone to confront the guy spacificly it would be a different story.

[Adept]

This I really hate, the your young or when you know stuff. I have interacted with drunks plenty thanks. My uncle is a alcoholic and is violent after he has a few drinks in him. I have had enough encounters and fights with a violently drunk person to know just fine. I have also been in enough bars and rather dislike them.

The difference between this, and being a bouncer is akin to a gigantic, gaping chasm. Going to a few bars, and dealing with an alcoholic relative are in no way the same thing as spending enough time in bars, as security, to observe the crowd dynamics and watch exactly what will escalate a confrontation and how it will escalate it.

[Rezin]

Rezin,

I post on CF as "ronin308"s.

:neener:

I been lurking for ages. Didn't post too much, then I suddenly got sucked in!


On he topic at hand.....


Very interesting discussions... Now, 24 hours later, I am glad as hell I didn't have my gun. I talked to a few folks, and this dude is well known for being a bit of an ass.... It would have continued to escalate... Until who knows what....

Still feel a twinge of "wuss" lol, but all in all, things turned out OK.. Those I saw today who knew of the incident also agreed, I was the better man for walking away..

...and no, I did NOT go to the bar to aggravate the situation. I knew the owner, my landlord was most likely in there. If not, the building manager, and friend of ours was, and they, being property owner (and probably at least kenw the guy) would be able to diffuse the situation. After I was in the bar, he entered behind me, and began the physical part.

[Lupinus]

The difference between this, and being a bouncer is akin to a gigantic, gaping chasm. Going to a few bars, and dealing with an alcoholic relative are in no way the same thing as spending enough time in bars, as security, to observe the crowd dynamics and watch exactly what will escalate a confrontation and how it will escalate it.
Did I say I was an expert or a seasoned pro? No, I said I don't appreciat the know nothin cause your a youngin stance. I have delt with enough drunks to not be a little know nothing. I know perfectly well how easily a violent drunk will snap and use his fists. I also know how easily a drunk will grow a set of balls or do something he wouldn't do sober.

That said I don't care if you are drunk sober high or mental. If you are about to attack me I WILL respond accordingly. Being drunk gives you a little leeway to be an ???????, but if you are that drunk that you need to attack me because I am talking with the owner of the bar then that is your fault not mine. Don't care if your drunk or have a temper that is a reason not an excuse and it doesn't mean I will use less force if you and your buddies are about to do me physical harm.

Edited add on-
Agian- I do not advocate simply waving a gun around for no reason. I do advocate that you are perfectly right that if you feel threatened your hand goes near your gun and if an attack seems about to happen you pull your gun.

Is it a good thing he had no gun? Maybe if it escalated and he pulled it the guy might be dead. But on the same token if the guy and his buddies had felt the need to attack Rez could quite possibly be in the hospital instead of having made this thread and that is what it is there for.

[EddieCoyle]

Did I say I was an expert or a seasoned pro? No, I said I don't appreciat the know nothin cause your a youngin stance. I have delt with enough drunks to not be a little know nothing. I know perfectly well how easily a violent drunk will snap and use his fists. I also know how easily a drunk will grow a set of balls or do something he wouldn't do sober.

That said I don't care if you are drunk sober high or mental. If you are about to attack me I WILL respond accordingly. Being drunk gives you a little leeway to be an ???????, but if you are that drunk that you need to attack me because I am talking with the owner of the bar then that is your fault not mine. Don't care if your drunk or have a temper that is a reason not an excuse and it doesn't mean I will use less force if you and your buddies are about to do me physical harm.

Edited add on-
Agian- I do not advocate simply waving a gun around for no reason. I do advocate that you are perfectly right that if you feel threatened your hand goes near your gun and if an attack seems about to happen you pull your gun.

Is it a good thing he had no gun? Maybe if it escalated and he pulled it the guy might be dead. But on the same token if the guy and his buddies had felt the need to attack Rez could quite possibly be in the hospital instead of having made this thread and that is what it is there for.

Dude, no offense but your posts are work to read. You might have plenty of excuses why (you're dyslexic, English is your second language, you have deformed hands, your keyboard is broken, yada, yada, yada, etc). But for the love of god, would it kill you to run your posts through one of the free online spell checkers like this (http://www.spellcheck.net/cgi-bin/spell.exe) or better yet, install this ("http://www.spellcheck.net/) plug in? It won't help the grammar, apostrophe, and capitalization thing but at least we'll be able to get through your posts without a decoder ring. You must have a high speed connection because you post about 100 times per day so please, take the time to make them readable.

Anyway. Thanks for the armchair CCW advice. So far, in the last two days, you'd've followed a guy into a bar to pull your gun on him, and would've drawn on a pathetic but persistent homeless guy because he bugged you for change a few times. You have a drunk uncle, you're young, you have a Camaro, and you don't like bars; fantastic. If you don't wise up before you get a concealed carry permit, you'll lose it and give us all a bad reputation. Smarten up.

[EddieCoyle]

:neener:
Very interesting discussions... Now, 24 hours later, I am glad as hell I didn't have my gun. I talked to a few folks, and this dude is well known for being a bit of an ass.... It would have continued to escalate... Until who knows what....



Ooh, ooh, I know what would've happened... you would've had to shoot the scumbag in the face. "Wuss" factor aside, you did what you could without going to jail. Ignore the armchair gunslingers here. You went as far as you could under the circumstances.

Can you talk to your landlord "offline" and get him to help alleviate the situation? At least inform him that you'll call the cops if it happens again?

At least, with bit of notice, he can't complain too much if you drop a dime. BTW, no phone in the bar!?!?! What bar doesn't have a phone? He's at least got to have a cell phone that you can call him on and give him a heads-up. If not, tell him to spend a fraction of what you pay him in rent to get one. Geeze, it doesn't cost that much.

[Lupinus]

Anyway. Thanks for the armchair CCW advice.
You're more then welcome.

So far, in the last two days, you'd've followed a guy into a bar to pull your gun on him
No, I have gone into a bar to ask the manager to have his customer move his vehicle. If the guy decides to be an ass that is not my fault and as I said isn't going to get a gun pulled on him. If the guy is about to attack me then it isn't my fault but I will pull a gun on him before I let him and his friends pound on me. So try reading what I write instead of focusing on my poor grammer and not making my words out to be what you want but rather what I say.

and would've drawn on a pathetic but persistent homeless guy because he bugged you for change a few times
No, sorry wrong agian. Persistent and aggressive (getting in my face, forcing himself at me to the point I have to step back, etc.) gets a gun pulled on him or put on the ground. I said from the start in that thread to notify the manager and tell him to bug off. But if he is threatineng me a kid or a woman yes I will defend myself or others with necisary force. If calling police will do it that'll work fine. If he has a woman sandwhiched between him and a car that is not time for police. Agian. Read all of what I write and not the parts you pick out on.

You have a drunk uncle, you're young, you have a Camaro
And this has to do with.....? I have a drunk uncle? His problem not mine, I dispise drunks and deal with them as little as possible. I am young? Agian so what? Young does not equal stupid. And I have a camaro? Agian so what? I am the only guy my age to ever own a camaro? Doesn't mean I am a reckless driver.

and you don't like bars; fantastic
I rather think so yes, I see few places with as little use.

If you don't wise up before you get a concealed carry permit, you'll lose it and give us all a bad reputation.
Oh how so? By actually making use of the gun if attacked? I have said several times that pulling it is not the first thing to do and it is not to be waved around. Maybe if you tried reading my entire post instead of picking out parts to make them what you want them to be you would see that. No where did I say I would follow the drunk into the bar to confront him yet that is what you persist on...nice.

[Andrew Rothman]

Rezin,

First, I'd work with the landlord to find a way for you to park in a separate area than the drunk and rowdy bar patrons. You're a pretty good customer -- he'll probably work with you.

Second, I'd look into a defensive device called a "tell-a-fone." You could have used this amazing device to contact the bar from the safety and comfort of your armchair, and let the bar owner deal with his jackass customers himself. Your name and face never get involved.

Third, think of your gun like the old American Express ads: "Don't leave home without it."

Fourth, you can have a male ego, or a gun, but not both. De-escalation and tactical retreat are not wussy, just prudent.

[bachman1961]

Great story !! The carry issue where the primary business is serving alcohol could have been a problem for you. You may find out from the bar owner w/o you revealing your bluff. Ask yourself if you went in thinking your car would be blocked in by morning or were you looking for some potential action ?? You going for the missing gun could have telegraphed a 'lethal threat' and put another party in the self defense frame of mind. Glad you got out of there and don't feel foolish for backing out of that scenerio. You showed some restraint and presence of mind that was a better descision for all involved. (Even if you decide that going in the first place was not a great idea). You were THE MAN. I sure hope the bar owner appreciates the end result and it may give you a chance to verbalize some of the issues there with parking and traffic to resolve future problems. He may need a reminder that they won't want to invite trouble ie; fights, towing , Police responding etc...

[thorazine]

Did a few things right, did a few things wrong.

I live in the last apt in a small building. RIGHT next door is my motorcycle shop, and 2 doors down is a bar...

Wrong - renting there in the first place.

Didn't you notice the bar before you signed the lease?

[Rezin]

Wrong - renting there in the first place.

Didn't you notice the bar before you signed the lease?

It is usually an "old man bar" Very quiet.... Once in a while we get the rowdys out back, but generally it's not bad at all. We are in a neighborhood, not a strip mall or anything. Heck we often get luch there (good little grille) and know most of the folks. I don't go in there to hang out, as I usually don't drink, but the food is good. Heck, I grew up in the house across the street!

Like I said, MOST of the folks there are plain friendly, and this guy is the only one who felt the need to be an ass.

He is banned from the bar, the LL gave me the guys name and such if he decides to retailiate, but says he is mostly hot air.

He did post up some sign in the back regarding parking (Park in designated spaces only) and gave me his cell number if there are any more probs....Lets see if any of that helps....

[depicts]

I thought we all had a responsability NOT to escelate a situation when we are armed? How would you feel if you HAD shot someone for blocking in your car, even if he was a jerk? I'm new here, but some of the answers I see on this thread scare me. Are you all Rambo? Want to go to jail for killing someone because you didn't like the way he parked? Give yourselves a break, call the police or shut up. Having the right to carry doesn't mean you have to solve all your problems with a gun. Someone once said, When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

[avpro]

...He looks at his friend and laughs, and says "Yeah, I'll move it at 1 or 2 when we leave the bar."

Sorry, but I think you handled it way wrong.

I think it was a mistake to go outside to ask him to move his car. You already know that the bar closes at 2am and the car will not be there in the morning. Did you need to use your car at 2am? I would have just gone back and watched my movie. In the morning I would have inspected my car for damage. If the car was damaged, call the police and get a report. Then call my insurance company and report it to them.

I would also get on the landlord. He is the one you should be mad at and he is the one that can remedy the situation.