SD help for the girl

[proven]

my girlfriend just got a part time job at the local liquor/beverage store. she sometimes works untill midnight, leaves with 2 or 3 other employees, then walks about 3 blocks home alone. i need some tips on keeping her safe. she lives 7 hrs away, so me picking her up is not an option. she could drive, but it's generally a calm town and she likes to walk. she's not up for carrying a handgun or an edged weapon (took here a bit to warm up to the idea of my keeping a loaded 1911 and 870 in my place). i guess i'm thinking mace/pepper spray. i'll admit i have absolutely no knowledge of these products whatsoever. not sure if they're all legal, or if it goes by locality. she carries a cell phone and is actually a pretty tough girl, although she has no self defense training. i can show her a few things for general SD, but i only see her about once a month at this point.

any help on the mace/pepper spray idea would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

[silverlance]

you really need to stop living in a cave fifty klicks outside of Anytown.

7 hours?!?!

well, I guess I can sympathize. I was "dated" a girl in WS when I lived in CA. Course, I was 17 and a silly dolt.

Hm.. how about this:

Surefire Defender (I really don't know much about surefires as I use black bear's 951 flashbang-in-a-maglight, so someone who does help me out here) with crenelated strike bezel

a good small can of pepper spray (I have two sabres, but i don't recommend them as the switch goes way too easily to "FIRE" and that can lead to uncomfortable situations when carrying it in your pocket.. then again read on)

a good pepper spray holster so you don't spray yourself

and many hours of practicing blood-curdling rebel yells that will scare the bejeezus out of any sane or insane person (could be fun to practice in bed ;) )

just some thoughts
K

[nfl1990]

IMO mace, or pepper spray is a poor substitute for a pistol, mainly because wile it will work decently well to incapacitate a single attacker, (unless he is high on crystal meth, or somthing simalar because then it will useless) the real problem with it is a situation where you have multiple attackers to deal with. You would have to check with local laws but she may be able to carry a taser, (some states don't allow them, others only allow certain kinds. also unarmed training would be a good idea too.

[Lupinus]

pepper spray or a nice big mag light. Will help her see on the way and them things HURT.

I knew a woman who liked to go to the hs football came but you arnt allowed any weapons. They couldn't do jack about her having a big ass mag light though.

[cliffstanc]

This is just a quick note from a lurker, as I'm sure others here will explain it better than I could, but...

In my opinion, giving her a can of mace or pepper spray would do little, if anything, to improve her chances in an attack. Because it's obvious to me that, given your description, your girlfriend doesn't have the right mental skills for self-defense.

I mean, she "likes to walk" home alone, predictably at midnight, from a liquor store! Sure, it's only three blocks, but that only reduces her chance of being randomly attacked. It does nothing to prevent some scumbag (who are occasionally known to frequent liquor stores!) from waiting outside and following her, where he has every opportunity to do...whatever he likes.

And let's be clear, he CAN do whatever he likes. I'm not trying to offend the female readers out there, but I believe it's a simple fact: nearly all women WILL LOSE a physical confrontation with a healthy adult male. Unless your "pretty tough girl" is in training for Miss Universe or has several years of a real self-defense martial arts discipline under her belt, a determined male can rob, rape, AND/OR kill her without much danger of being stopped or even sustaining anything more than minor injuries. Sure, it's possible that she'll get lucky and somehow get in a disabling or dissuading hit, but it's not the way to bet.

I don't say this to be macho or anything, but to emphasize that for your girlfriend to be safe she must understand that she starts at a disadvantage right off the bat. The best way to improve her chances of surviving a confrontation are not to have one in the first place! That means being aware of her surroundings (eg "Condition Yellow" or better), and taking steps to reduce her chances of an attack.

So, my suggestions:

She needs to take a self-defense course (or more than one) - not for the physical skills, but for the mental outlook and awareness a good course instills.



She needs to change her habits - she should not be walking home alone at night. Since she's only three blocks away from the store, then a co-worker who drives could drop her off without much hassle.



She needs to have a "come to Jesus" moment - while there's nothing wrong with learning eye gouges or key-stabbing, the simple fact is that a woman's best chance to survive is with a weapon that does not rely on her physical strength to be effective, ie a firearm. Pepper spray is a poor substitute, and will not deter many attackers.


I apologize for not answering your question on legality of pepper spray.

[torpid]

I second cliffstanc's observation of her lack of a self-preservationist mindset. Pretty much made the points I was going to make about the situation.

Glad you finally "decloaked", cliffstanc- welcome aboard!
:)

[Andrew Rothman]

Yup, cliff pretty much nailed it. To mangle an old joke:

How many self-defense instructors does it take to change a light bulb?

Only one, but the light bulb has to WANT to change. :)

[pax]

cliffstanc ~

Fabulous first post.

pax

[shermacman]

cliffstanc:
Not bad for a newbie! Of course it will take years of practice to get as good as us Senior Members, but not bad! You nailed it!

[hso]

cliffstanc's pretty well voiced much our opinion (well done, btw, welcome), but if you want to know about the legality of any weapon's issue you should look at alllaw.com or findlaw.com and research it yourself.

From Pa Code 21.1 Definitons
Lethal weapons—Include, but are not limited to, firearms and other weapons calculated to produce death or serious bodily harm. A concealed billy club is a lethal weapon. The chemical mace or any similar substance shall not be considered as a lethal weapon for the purposes of the act. For purposes of this chapter, a nonconcealed billy club shall also be considered a lethal weapon.

You can suggest anything to her but she not going to listen to you unless she wants to so tell her once,send a can of Fox to her and let it go after that. If she doesn't care enough to not become a statistic then you shouldn't either.

[Smuggs]

And let's be clear, he CAN do whatever he likes. I'm not trying to offend the female readers out there, but I believe it's a simple fact: nearly all women WILL LOSE a physical confrontation with a healthy adult male. Unless your "pretty tough girl" is in training for Miss Universe or has several years of a real self-defense martial arts discipline under her belt, a determined male can rob, rape, AND/OR kill her without much danger of being stopped or even sustaining anything more than minor injuries. Sure, it's possible that she'll get lucky and somehow get in a disabling or dissuading hit, but it's not the way to bet

A thing to remember is that man or woman, between two equaly skilled fighters the larger stronger one will win 9 out of 10. To rely on physical skills to defend yourself gives up one of the things that makes us human,THE USE OF TOOLS. While not as common as Tae Kwon Do,Kempo and other mainstream martial arts Penjak Silat(sorry for the spelling but I have seen several versions so pick one) teaches that bare hand strikes are only for when you dont' have a weapon. Most people and unforutunately more female than male are not willing to use the kind of instant,brutal attack that it would take to stop a larger opponent from overpowering them in a street attck.

[hso]

Smuggs, what your talking about is Will not physical Strength. I'm a smaller guy that's been attacked by bigger/more numerous opponents and it certainly wasn't size or strength that allowed me to walk away. While training played a major role it was Will that allowed me to act and act immediatly and with intensity of violence.

If this girl has that Will and will act with frightening violence even without training she has an advantage, but it may not be enough with a determined attacker who enjoys violence.

[Preacherman]

+1 Cliff - great first post, and welcome aboard! Please don't stop at this post - we can use all the sensible contributors we can get.

I think this lady needs to wake up and smell reality for a while. A weapon that will allow her to defend herself at a distance is an absolute necessity for someone in her position. She needs to remember the old saw -

If a man's worth doing, he's worth doing properly!

:D

[Smuggs]

Was actualy discussing two different aspects of the topic. The first point being all other things being equal the larger person will win 9 out of 10 this point was to show that a weapon is a great equalizer to a larger oponent. As to your encounter I would bet that all things were not equal. you were better trained and prepaired therefore negated the goblins size/number advantages. The point you made about the will to fight is not in contrast to mine just better written.

[James T Thomas]

May I suggest to first buy her a small, flashy looking Police scanner radio that perhaps is portable and recieves the freq. of the local police so that she may have her awareness upgraded. If she will listen to it.

Second, don't laugh too much: my old grandmother used to carry a horseshoe in her handbag to bingo. This was in another age, however, if your girlfriend hasn't got a purse with straps, buy her one, again, a sturdy one and perhaps load it with something hard and heavy and usefull -practical.
Any suggestions here? She could carry your reloading shot, or....

Even if her arm is blocked, if the straps are long enough, the swing momentum will bring it around, and change her attackers "mind."
She must be fast and furious and agressive though.

[strambo]

The best way for her to protect herself is to find a safer job and/or safer area, hours ect... I'm not trying to be flip either. Avoiding an obviously dangerous circumstance is the best way to protect yourself...it's not like it is a career job.

[antarti]

Smuggs +1

A violent repeat offender (is there really any other kind?) is not going to casually walk up to a victim and slowly do anything. A BG who's bent on doing harm, and makes an existence out of gratifying himself, is going to use "swift and blinding violence" on prey, coupled with surprise.

No offense to all, but I am quite male, and doubt I'd fare very well against a larger (or equal sized) adversary who had that mindset, and was used to pumping iron and visiting inhumane violence on people... or worse, enjoyed it.

Vigilance and the firearm is her best defense, and in many ways, against a really determined attacker, her only defense. The firearm isn't going to be as important as the training and will to use it.

[proven]

thanks for all of the replies.
the hours and liquor store job aren't really her choice, but the only thing available, at this time.

a firearm isn't gonna happen, no matter how much i'd like to see it.

even with a handgun, if a guy is dead set on harming a woman, don't you think that he'd just walk up and slug her in the face, grab both hands and bind them, then carry her off?? i doubt anyone would see that coming let alone be able to draw and fire.

i guess it boils down to situational awareness and using whatever weapon is at hand. she does have a co-worker that now walks home with her.

[mitchshrader]

let her (make it happen) talk to folks (women) recently mugged, assaulted, raped.

reality checks may not be the first line of defense, but they can certainly assist in growing one.

then a CCW course, and a DAO 38 snubbie.

[cliffstanc]

Thanks to all for the kind welcome!

Proven - I'm glad to hear that she's taken steps to increase her safety. Hopefully, that will be enough, though obviously you (and we all) wish she would do more.

But I want to (gently) caution you about this:
even with a handgun, if a guy is dead set on harming a woman, don't you think that he'd just walk up and slug her in the face, grab both hands and bind them, then carry her off?? i doubt anyone would see that coming let alone be able to draw and fire

Don't fall into this trap - this is the kind of thinking anti-gunners use. Just because a handgun cannot protect you in every possible circumstance, that doesn't mean that it still isn't the best possible choice for self-defense. If a victim is taken totally by surprise in a deliberate attack, no weapon in the world can save them. But I believe (and I freely admit I am no expert) the following:

In nearly all attacks, the victim will have some warning before the attack.
Immediate incapacitation in a physical assault is rare - a victim will have at least a few moments to respond before they are subdued.

Regarding the first point, I feel that humans are, in fact, instinctively aware of their surroundings to a much greater extent than one would expect. Many of the interviews of crime victims I've read often say that they had a "bad feeling" or that their assailant was acting oddly before the attack - these are indications that they (dimly) recognized that they were, in fact, in a dangerous situation. The problem is that we have been conditioned to ignore that "little voice" inside our heads, because we don't want to make a fuss or look "paranoid" to others.

I think a great deal of situational awareness training is simply breaking the natural reluctance to act upon these feelings, and to make this awareness a much more conscious, deliberate, practiced activity than before. This enables defensive actions to be taken more quickly, and with less mental dithering, than someone who relies purely on their modern, attenuated instincts.

My second point is that, though again I am no expert, it is much harder to instantly incapacitate or subdue anyone with a physical blow, even with a weapon. Yes, it is possible to knock someone out with a "slug" to the face, but that's not nearly as common as tv shows and movies would have you believe. Even given the scenario where a woman is being attacked by a much larger and stronger male, a woman should have at least a few seconds available to respond.

Given those few seconds then, what should she do? Well, first, she must respond! I agree with the posters here that self-defense training must inculcate a rapid, vigorous response to an attack. How many times have we heard a victim saying how incredulous they were were during the assault, eg. "I can't believe this is happening to me!", or the like? This "deer in the headlights" response to danger is entirely instinctive, and while it may have been an evolutionary advantage back when we still had tails and lived in trees, today it merely robs us of the ability to respond effectively to the threats we face from modern-day predators. This reaction is so prevalent in us that armed forces have had to spend a great deal of time, money, and brainpower devising training strategies attempting to reduce the "inertia" soldiers feel when in combat for the first time. And still, any one who has expertise in this area will tell you that no matter how realistic and intense the training, there is no substitute for experience. How much worse off the private citizen is, who has neither the time, money nor access to such specialized training!

And then, if she does respond, she must respond effectively. This means an immediate, violent response. While it is by no means confined to one gender, I think that women as a whole are more reluctant to act aggressively towards their attacker even when they recognize the danger. I think this is for both genetic and cultural reasons - males are both more innately aggressive and are not socially as inhibited in expressing that aggression - though, again, this is a general observation and not specific to individuals. This all means that, when a woman does resort to physical defense, she tends to start at a much "lower" level of violence - attempting to shove the assailant away, or hitting the hands or arms of the attacker as opposed to the vital areas. This wastes even more precious time for the victim to stop the attack before they are subdued!

This is, oddly enough, one of the few things to recommend pepper spray. Because of its non-lethal nature, some say that it is more likely to be used (and used earlier) in a defensive situation than a deadly weapon like a gun or knife. I think there is some truth to this. However, if the spray is not used early enough in the encounter, it becomes virtually useless once the attacks begins to grapple with the victim. One of the first things an assailant does is try to immobilize the arms or hands of the victim, usually by pinning them to the victim's side. Pepper spray, unlike a gun, requires a facial hit to be most effective (or, arguably, effective at all), which is almost out of the question if you cannot raise your hands above your waist. Many sprays are difficult to impossible to aim by feel, and even those with rudimentary grips cannot be accurately shot without visually sighting the nozzle and correction of the stream. Not to mention that fog, cone, etc. type sprays which require less aiming would cause the victim to be affected as well.

Contrast that to a handgun - once gripped, the handgun can be easily (and surprisingly accurately, at least at short range) aimed by feel. Plus the gun can merely be shoved into the attacker's midriff and fired, which - while not ideal placement - is surely more effective than merely spraying the guy's stomach with pepper. And hopefully, the pain and shock of the first shot enables the victim to break free - and make the next shots really count.

Sorry, this turned into quite the essay, which wasn't my intent. I realize I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I think these issues are important enough to repeat. And anyway, how many bear/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI threads can we have?

Er, don't answer that.

- Cliff

[proven]

cliff-
great posts. i agree with the advantages that a handgun has over pepper spray. but as i stated earlier, she just won't go for it. she has mentioned that she can see why it might be a good idea to have a home defense gun while living alone or with her female roomate. i'll have to try and extend that thinking to walking around town, traveling, etc. for now tho, i'm looking for the best way to keep her safe. i plan on talking with her on this in more detail, and going over some possible situations and reactions.

are any of the pepper sprays better than the others, as far as ingredients?? i'm thinking about a light such as the surefire also. i use a standard surefire but i think one of the defense models may be a good idea.

thanks again for all the input fellas.

[Smuggs]

she has mentioned that she can see why it might be a good idea to have a home defense gun while living alone or with her female roomate. i'll have to try and extend that thinking to walking around town, traveling, etc.
Great first step. I can feel for you on the carry gun as I finaly convinced my wife to learn to shoot. With luck we both may end up with SO's who actualy enjoy shooting :D

[proven]

smuggs-
yeah, i'm working on it. when we first met she didn't like guns at all. recently i took her with me to the range. i borrowed a .22 rifle from a friend for her to shoot. she also tried my 1911. didn't like the 1911 much, tho. recently, i jokingly told her i was buying her a .38 for christmas. she seemed pretty receptive to the idea and also said she wants me to buy a .22 rifle that she can shoot with me.

i working on it.

[hso]

I recommend the Flip Top Fox Labs spray based on the personal experience of a friend of mine:evil:

http://www.defensedevices.com/fox4ozfliptop.html

[Huntzman]

Generally, I always caution against using this stuff. I carried it for almost twenty years, and pretty much despised the stuff. Under best case scenarios it seemed that you inevitably where going to get a dose of it as well. Sucks when you are trying to cope with it's effects as well as the person you are trying to subdue (wind always seems to be blowing towards YOU). 2nd, I have seen it (pepper spray) not have any effect on a subject..... then what ?? I at least had a firearm to fall back on.

My advice, make a plan to get her more acclimated to shooting. Buy a little .22 and start her off plinking cans. Maybe she will shed her fear and begin to embrace it. I know that it is a more long term approach, but you have to start somewhere. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibilty, and just having a gun doesn't mean they will use it when they need to.

The truth is, if someone lives in a bubble, it might be impossible to open their eyes. You might just have to start slow and work your way up in increasing her awareness.

Best of luck !!

[bad LT]

Outstanding posts cliffstanc.

[Fido]

Try clearly explaining reality as it applies to her. She should not be walking home at midnight. She should not be working in a liquor store.

She needs to grow up and realize ignoring reality is childish at best and harmful at it worst. Keeping naive and popular innocence as a default setting will not protect from the random intrusion of assault.

If you cannot convince her of the errors in her thinking, you might think about moving closer so you can drive her home.

[DarkKnight01]

carry a gun.... drive the car thats what their for.... like to walk? walk in the daylight hours.... and dont forget your gun...

thats all I got to say...

[f4t9r]

cliffstanc is all over this one
+1