Stalking

[mete]

It's interesting that 1 in 10 are stalked. But the rules of what to do if you are stalked are worth repeating . http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4393856.stm

[Pilgrim]

Being stalked is such a bother. It creates so many questions. Should I carry Gold Dots or Golden Saber ammo? Should I carry the full-sized 1911 or go with the compact? What should I carry for a backup piece?

Pilgrim

[LightningJoe]

Well, I never believe the statistics. These numbers are usually made up by the Lefties. 1 in 10 are gay, 3 million homeless, and so forth (either made up or based on fraudulent science). The more problems there are, especially problems that scare women, the more government intervention. 1 in 10 women has a crazy, evil man stalking her. Quick! Take all my money and tell me what to do! Save me, Government!

[pax]

Some good resources:

1) Marc MacYoung's website: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/stalking.html The whole site is easily navigated, full of good information, and worth spending some time at.

2) A book titled Safety for Stalking Victims, by Lyn Bates. More info here. (http://www.womenshooters.com/archive/old1101issue/books1101.html)

I don't know if the statistics are ramped up or not. I do know that a majority of the women I meet at the range have had at least one frightening experience with stalking or something like it. Of course, since frightening incidents are what drive a lot of women into the shooting world, it's hard to say whether I've just got a biased sample group. But from where I sit it sure seems like a widespread problem.

PS to Pilgrim: the problems are a lot more complex than your flippant and dismissive post implies. Certainly someone who is being stalked should be armed. But should she move? If she moves, how far away is far enough? To whom should she give her new contact info? Should she change jobs? She should change her routine -- but how? And to what extent? Should she get an unlisted number? To whom should she give the new number? Anyone at all? Relatives only? Close friends? In a lot of cases she doesn't even know who it is who is leaving "gifts" on her doorstep (like a baggie of dog poo) or slashing her tires. How can she avoid that guy? Should she make an effort to find out who it is? Or not? When he calls, should she keep him on the phone to get more information, or hang up immediately to avoid giving him any reaction? What should she tell her friends while all this is going on? How can she navigate the criminal justice system to get the paper trail she will need if it ever goes to trial? If the police put together a good case, should she be willing to get on the stand -- two years after the stalking finally stopped! -- and testify? Or would it be wiser just to shrug and walk away, lest the guy somehow wiggle off and come after her again?

pax

[LightningJoe]

I But from where I sit it sure seems like a widespread problem.




OK. Sometimes the numbers can be real. If you cry wolf 10,000 times, there might be a wolf a few of those times. But where are all these stalker nutjobs coming from? Is it the same small cadre of crazy men making a career out of stalking women? In order to stalk 10% of women, you need 0.1% of men to stalk 100 women each, or 1% of men to stalk 10 women each, or 10% of men to stalk one women each. If it's 0.1% of men stalking 100 women each, you can put them in jail. If it's 10% of men stalking one woman each, it's normal human behavior. Anything 10% of men do can't be a pathology. Unless you think being a man is a pathology. And that's where we're headed, you know. They already give boys in school drugs because they don't act like girls.

[pax]

Joe ~

Not all stalkers are male. The guys get all the press, but female stalkers happen too.

pax

[LightningJoe]

Pax:


OK. I'm trying not to come across as pro-stalker. If 10% of men stalk one women each, I'm willing to regard them as the bottom 10% of men and to put them on an island where they won't be able to produce descendents. This should have a eugenic effect on the population.


As for female stalkers, whom are they stalking? Other women? I guess Selena did get shot by a female stalker, that's true. But I don't think women can really stalk men. If a man were being stalked by a woman, I guess he could relocate to the stalker island...

[pax]

Joe ~

Two cases I know of. In once case the female stalker was a lesbian, and fixated on a woman who was not. In the other, the female stalker was the mother of a man whom the stalkee had rejected.

That's out of a pool of about a dozen women I know of who've dealt with the issue. I do not personally know any males who have been stalked, but again, I'm dealing with a very limited & biased sample group. I don't often get guys' life stories when they come to the range! But women often feel a need to explain why they're there.

Something else. Your comments lead me to believe that you don't understand the nature of stalking. Stalking involves committing multiple acts which are themselves illegal -- stuff like trespass, vandalism, assault, voyeurism, tampering with the US mail. Even IF 10% of guys engaged in this kind of stuff, it wouldn't be "normal human behavior." It would still be criminal activity.

A lot of people who are stalked never do spot their tormenters until quite far into the process, and the majority of stalkers are never caught & convicted.

pax

[LightningJoe]

Pax:


I don't want to add volume to what might be hysteria. (Not saying it is! Just that it SOUNDS LIKE the kind of thing the Lefties use to further their agenda). But my wife (before we met) was "stalked" by a guy (a manager) from where she worked. I can't always get a comprehensible/accurate narrative out of my significant other, but from what I gather, 1] this guy used to strive to get her attention all the time at work (she's unusually good looking) 2] this guy then trapped her in a storage room and tried to jump on her. 3] She then made use of some very old Tae Kwan Do training and waled on his nuts hard enough to leave him on the floor grunting. 4] She didn't tell anybody about it for two weeks, so by the time she did, all the General Manager did was move the guy to a different store. 5] This guy stalked her for a while, going so far as to break into her apartment while she wasn't there. Apparently, he got bored or whatever and left her alone after a while.


OK. So, what should she have done? She handled the immediate threat in the storage room very well. Her first error was being alone with a man in the storage room, but it's tough to be on guard all the time. Her first real unforced error was that she didn't go get a witness and show him the guy on the floor grunting. Hey, Bob, something wrong with the ol' garbonzoes? How'd that happen? I'd have loved to have seen him try to answer that with a straight face. Oh, I'm OK. Really! I'm just tired...


Having let that opportunity pass, she should have gone to a higher manager as soon as possible. Well, she didn't do that for whatever reason.


So, once the guy's effectively off the hook for his comportment and is stalking you, what's the answer? She had a boyfriend at the time, but from what I've heard she probably would have been better off with the stalker.

[torpid]

LightningJoeBut I don't think women can really stalk men.

Wow, I don't even know where to begin here.


.

[Powderman]

Pax:


I don't want to add volume to what might be hysteria. (Not saying it is! Just that it SOUNDS LIKE the kind of thing the Lefties use to further their agenda). But my wife (before we met) was "stalked" by a guy (a manager) from where she worked. I can't always get a comprehensible/accurate narrative out of my significant other, but from what I gather, 1] this guy used to strive to get her attention all the time at work (she's unusually good looking) 2] this guy then trapped her in a storage room and tried to jump on her. 3] She then made use of some very old Tae Kwan Do training and waled on his nuts hard enough to leave him on the floor grunting. 4] She didn't tell anybody about it for two weeks, so by the time she did, all the General Manager did was move the guy to a different store. 5] This guy stalked her for a while, going so far as to break into her apartment while she wasn't there. Apparently, he got bored or whatever and left her alone after a while.


OK. So, what should she have done? She handled the immediate threat in the storage room very well. Her first error was being alone with a man in the storage room, but it's tough to be on guard all the time. Her first real unforced error was that she didn't go get a witness and show him the guy on the floor grunting. Hey, Bob, something wrong with the ol' garbonzoes? How'd that happen? I'd have loved to have seen him try to answer that with a straight face. Oh, I'm OK. Really! I'm just tired...


Having let that opportunity pass, she should have gone to a higher manager as soon as possible. Well, she didn't do that for whatever reason.


So, once the guy's effectively off the hook for his comportment and is stalking you, what's the answer? She had a boyfriend at the time, but from what I've heard she probably would have been better off with the stalker.

What to do? Quite simple, actually.

First, when you detect someone stalking you, get an order of protection and a no contact order. It is important for you to create the paper trail.

If you see them again, after the order is served, AND if they are obviously continuing their behavior, call the police if you can.

If you can't, draw your CCW, and inform the person that you WILL shoot if necessary.

If the situation has deteriorated to the point where talk is useless, defend yourself.

Call the police ASAP, and tell them the circumstances of the encounter.

Stalkers are, in their hearts, cowards. They will usually wilt away at the first sign of affirmative defense.

And for those who don't, there's always Smith and Wesson. :)

[sfhogman]

Just came upon the thread.
Thanks for the links, Pax. Whatever the number or proprtion of stalkers to the rest of us is, that's good information to have. I will pass it on to my G/F and her daughter.

Best,
Jeff

[Jeff White]

Women are just as likely to me stalkers as men. In fact the last stalking case I handled was a woman stalking a man who rejected her and his son who she blamed for it. No one likes being rejected and women are just as capable of becoming obsessed as men are. You may see a discrepancy in the statistics because men are more reluctant to report it then women. Joe's post about not believing that women could stalk men is indicative of how men look at it.

The one thing you can't do is ever give in and talk to or have other contact with the stalker. Many people think that if they just explain it to them they will see things reasonably and move on. That only seems to encourage them. And never have any contact with them after you've contacted the police. This will destroy any credibility you have with the police and states attorney that you are in fact a victim.

The last stalking case I handled happened exacly that way. I had her staked out in her car watching the ex-boyfriends house 3 times in the wee hours of the morning. I had a report from another agency where she followed the ex-boyfriend into a restuarant and started a confrontation and the sheriffs dept was called to remove her. I had an hour of videotape from the store security system where the son's wife worked where she was in the store, not shopping but shadowing the son's wife. I had a threatening letter she sent the ex-boyfriend where she threatened the ex-boyfriend's ex-wife, the son and the son's wife. I had answering machine tapes and phone records where she had called the ex-boyfriend repeatedly and made threats if he didn't take her back......I took all this to the states attorney, he agreed to file the stalking case, and the next time I saw her, she was walking hand in hand with the ex-boyfriend she had been stalking into a dance at the community center. That little bit of information was enough to get the entire case dropped. Of course they have since broken up again, and now the son is complaining he's being stalked again......

Jeff

[ewb45acp]

[QUOTE=LightningJoe]As for female stalkers, whom are they stalking?[QUOTE]

They are stalking their ex and/or the ex's current girlfriend.

Ask me how I know...

[WvaBill]

Pax:




As for female stalkers, whom are they stalking? Other women? I guess Selena did get shot by a female stalker, that's true. But I don't think women can really stalk men. If a man were being stalked by a woman, I guess he could relocate to the stalker island...

Not to presume to anwer for Pax, but, I know one female stalker who tried to maintain a relationship after it was over. :cuss: I found out in the middle of my ordeal that another ex-bf had filed a complaint for telephone harrassment which she pled guilty to some sort of petty crime/misdemeanor. I should have insisted on the CIB check before getting involved.:banghead:



LightningJoe
Quote:
But I don't think women can really stalk men.

Your kidding, right?

[sm]

+1

Pax's and Mr. White's post.

It seems stalking suffers from societal and cultural 'attitudes' as do sexual assault , sexual abuse,rape , incest, or Domestic Viloence.

Your 'not' suppposed to talk about, admit it happened, afraid of reprisals if you do, and then how society 'percieves' the victim as "asking for it", or making it all up to get attention.

Then we get into the legal steps taken, proof beyond resonable doubt, and the fallout from all this.

The victim is living in fear and hell, during all this, and if survives, continues to live with physical, emotional, and physcological 'injuries'.

Yes I too have worked with folks met at the range. Some were naturally ladies. NOT All.

Some were older men and women, stalked by family, relatives, former co- workers. Folks wanted what these folks had - or suspected they had.

Not uncommon for our Geriatric Society to be watched and followed home from Pharmacies, Doctor offices, clinics, visisting someone in a nursing home, hopsitial...or just a Sunday School Class out to eat.

Stalkers take note of kids at ball games, and stalk the kids. Stalk the teenagers at ball games, cheerleaders, even the group at the mall.

Own a business? Have keys to a business, the alarm system and perhaps a safe?
You too may have been stalked, or as come call it 'being cased'. Got family? Well perhaps your hard to pin down - now the wife, son, daughter at school or wherever is easy to stalk and then be held hostage.

I am a 6' 175 # while male. I have been stalked by more than one person, of various ages, genders, race, cultures. I had access to somethings that illegal folks wanted.

I know a Pharmacist, 6' 2 and 195# , at first flattered he gained so much attention from the attractive much younger lady...then it dawned on him ( after we visited) why she kept running into him. Calling him about medical questions for a elderly relative.

Stalking is not only being about dejected, breaking up, separating, or divorce. Not always about sexual fantasies or 'getting back'.

Sick folks have other reasons for stalking. None of us are immune, all us should stay awake and aware of our surrounding and those around family and kids.

Steve

[LightningJoe]

Huh! Well, I guess I never thought about women stalking men. I guess a lot of stalkers are schizophrenics who fantasize about relationships that don't exist and who have inappropriate emotions. I remember that Clint Eastwood movie, Play Misty For Me.


But if a woman did stalk you, you could lie around her house in your underwear, watch ESPN all day, and refuse to get a job. She'd throw you out eventually.

[samsquanch]

About 5 years ago I was stalked by my X-girlfriend.
we broke up after 7 years of dating. She did not take it too well.
I lived in toronto when we broke up and after 3 months of her not leaving me alone I decided to move back to the area where I grew up (and most of my friends still lived) South of Ottawa. She started to visit the area frequently on the weekends, where ever I was she would show up. I told her again to leave me alone and move on in her life.
then the crazyness started, I would come home some nights (not always alone) and she would be parked across the road watching, she then started calling me all hours of the night, and called my work. I had enough of this and complained to the cops, then the vandalism started, trashed my car, broke my apt windows and that sort of thing, of course I could prove none of this to the cops. and remember she lived about 4 hrs away..
So I ended up changing my job/car/where I lived and all my phone #'s as well as telling my family/friends the situation and they were not to give out any of my new info.
this all happned in about a 1 year span and since i made all the changes she has left me alone or not found me.

So this stuff does not only happen to women.
and the worst part was that she was super-model hot....

[clt46910]

I have been stalked by women also. One night in Texas I came home and an exgirlfriend came out form behind my apartment door, inside my apartment, as I came in the door. She had a gun in her hand. They can get as crazy as men can.

Another time was just a woman I met at a bar, never dated or went out with. She would come around my place, sit outside in the car, call on the phone at all hours, and leave me love notes on my door. Just from talking to her a couple times.

Men or women can be stalkers. Never is the ones you don't mind stalking you either...:rolleyes:

[gunsmith]

and she was pretty good looking too...I was riding my bike in sanfrancisco (b4 i started packing everywhere) & there was a guy screaming at a gal and holding a baseball bat ....I yelled from across the street "hey man put the bat down, if the cops come you'll be in big trouble"
& he yelled back "please call the cops" ...he then cornered her in a doorway all the while yelling for the cops ...the cops came and cuffed him and I told the cops he asked me to call him, it turns out he had a restraining order against her and she had just been slipping threatening notes under his and his wifes door..

[LightningJoe]

OK. I believe in the women stalking men thing now. I guess one problem is that when you're dealing with a woman, you've got no way to win. A female "stalker" even messed around with the 42nd President of the United States. He wasn't much of a President and he initiated the relationship, but once he did he couldn't make it stop.


I guess just try to pick reliable conspirators and try not to leave any forensic evidence. Jesse Jackson has some experience with that, too.


I doesn't matter what they look like, leave the crazy chicks alone. They'll get fat anyway even if they don't kill you.

[Pilgrim]

PS to Pilgrim: the problems are a lot more complex than your flippant and dismissive post implies.
And you perhaps, should develop a sense of humor. The post was meant as a touch of humor.

I served domestic violence restraining orders for the Sheriff for several years. I ended up more than once counseling women who were still afraid the piece of paper issued by a guy who wears a black dress to work wouldn't stop the other party.

I don't think I ever talked to a woman in this situation who was willing to take responsibility for her own safety. She invariably wanted someone else to 'save' her.

One memorable discussion was with the sister of a woman who was terrified her hubby was getting out of prison. All the time her hubby was in prison, she knew or should have known he would eventually get out. She waited until the last minute to obtain a restraining order such that it was touch and go as to whether I would be able to get to the prison in time to serve him before he was released.

As the discussion continued, it became evident the woman did not have any faith in the court's order to protect her. And yet, she still:
Lived in the same place she was living when her hubby went to prison.

Still worked at the same job she worked at when her hubby went to prison.

Was not willing to move and change jobs and take the necessary precautions to keep those two locations secret.

Was not prepared to or willing to kill her hubby should he come through the door to hurt or kill her.
All I could suggest to the woman's sister was that she sit down and have a serious discussion with the woman about her desires for a funeral, who should take over her children, etc.

So, contrary to your opinion of me, I have gone over several of these options with several women who were stalked or were afraid of their husbands or significant other. I have never had one say, "Sergeant Stanton, you are right. I am going to do those things. I am going to take self-defense training and get a gun."

I suppose when I suggested the truth of the solution, they just went off and cried to others, "The Sheriff wouldn't help me, wah, wah, wah!"

Pilgrim

[Oleg Volk]

But I don't think women can really stalk men

Err, I had an ex-GF whose behavior was pretty much stalking. She'd call dozens of times in a row if I did not pick up the phone. When I blocked her number, she came in person.

That she didn't intend to harm me dosn't mean her attention wasn't unwelcome or that it didn't worry me.

[pax]

Pilgrim ~

You've seen what you've seen. I've seen what I've seen. You've seen abuse victims at the sheriff's office; I've seen plenty at the range.

Do I see as many at the range as should be there? Nope. But you don't see the ones who decide to take care of themselves after doing the court thing. I have!

And I'm not the only one: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164346 Where do you suppose the reporter found someone to interview?

Oh, incidentally, I didn't and don't have any particular opinion of you. But your initial comment was indeed flippant and dismissive. Even if I don't have a sense of humor.

pax

[Pilgrim]

I've made it a point to teach all of my granddaughters to shoot. Hopefully, they will learn from their shooting experiences that they are capable of defending themselves and do not have to live at the sufference and good will of others to be protected.

I also hope that by my example and teaching they will also realize they are good and worthy women and will set their sights and standards high when they eventually pick a man to be their husband and father to their children.

I notice in the one article you referred me to, the woman'promptly' divorced her husband after he beat her. That I believe is the mindset that will save her, not her subsequent decision to learn to shoot a handgun. She refuses to be a punching toy and I applaud her for that. It seems in the frustrating domestic violence cases I saw, the abused spouse suffered years and years of abuse starting even before she even married the bum.

If you are seeing more women taking responsibility for their lives and learning to defend themselves, that is great. If you are helping them, good for you. You are doing God's work.

Pilgrim

[Pilot]

As for female stalkers, whom are they stalking? Other women? I guess Selena did get shot by a female stalker, that's true. But I don't think women can really stalk men. If a man were being stalked by a woman, I guess he could relocate to the stalker island...

Oh really? I was stalked by a woman many years ago when I was younger and still single. We had dated for a few weeks and I reaized that she was a whack job so I ended it. She would call my house every day, so I got an unlisted phone number. After she realized she couldn't call, she began to leave notes on my car. When that didn't work she would show up at places she knew I frequented, like my neighborhood bar/restaurant where I used to hang out with my buddies. After I would ingore her, she tried to befriend my buddies and as she was quite good looking they were stupid enough to let her join them if she "ran" into them at one of our hangouts. I finally had to tell my friends that while I valued their friendship I didn't want to be around this psycho women annd I wouldn't be joing them anymore. Well she finally moved on, and stopped bothering me, but it took about 3 months for that too happen. I was NOT amused by the enitre experience.

[svtruth]

Blessedly my experience with stalking is pretty much limited to this thread, but I thunk to myself, the NRA should have a program for (especially) women as both a service and a recruiting tool.

[LightningJoe]

Oh really? I was stalked by a woman many years ago when I was younger and still single.


Yeah, yeah. I already said I was buying the women stalking men thing now. I guess all the crazy chicks I've known just didn't find me attractive.

[Jim March]

I kinda got stalked after that "Crossballs" incident...some loon was seriously pissed that my threats to Viacom (via attorney Peter Mancus, bless him!) caused them to back down and not show "my" episode.

A lot of weird phone calls and EMails ensued, and I kept getting put on weird phone-spam contacts. Nothing really scary though.

[TallPine]

Seems like you never heard of "stalking" 20-25 years ago...
(except for Euell Gibbons and the poor asparagus:D )

Are people that much more crazy now or did they just call it something different back then?

:confused:

[Krenn]

yes.

[Pilot]

Err, I had an ex-GF whose behavior was pretty much stalking.

What did Shakespeare say? Hell hath no fury like that of a woman scorned. Just because they're female doesn't mean that they are harmless.

[Scoupe]

Can't believe no one's mentioned the Clint Eastwood classic thriller "Play Misty for Me". Or how about "Fatal Attraction"?

Female stalkers can be real scary. Have had a couple borderline incidents over the years personally. Here in KC, We just had one shoot her ex-boyfriend at 7:30 in the morning in the foyer of his apartment building after stalking and harrassing him for a while after their breakup.

[TrafficMan]

Joe ~

Not all stalkers are male. The guys get all the press, but female stalkers happen too.

pax

yup, i was a victim myself.

[justashooter]

Pax:


But I don't think women can really stalk men. If a man were being stalked by a woman, I guess he could relocate to the stalker island...

so this ex girlfriend was "shadowing" me from work to home on a regular basis, and one day she bumped my car with hers. i got out, talked with her, took her out to dinner, and took her parking. she was happy. problem solved. she just need some love.

then there was the ex-wife...THAT, was stalking...crazy &itch.

[rudolf]

If a man stalks a woman, she can publicly kick him in the nuts, cry for help, etc.
If a womans stalks a man, what is he gonna do? Ask the other guys for help?

[LightningJoe]

Are people that much more crazy now or did they just call it something different back then?




That was back before civilization collapsed. Crime rate used to be lower, too. People didn't carry pepperspray. Most people didn't bother to carry guns--wasn't even legal most places. People didn't lock their doors.


Then came the Sixties. Thanks, Liberals!

[yy]

what is the threshold before someone can file for court orders against "stalkers"?


I worry that just following can qualify. I once followed a stranger woman for three blocks along the crowded downtown. Her hair was a shade of strawberry blond that looked like live fire in the setting sun. I felt like waking from a dream after she made a turn and ended the light show three blocks after i came out of the sandwich shop and saw her hair.

No name. Not even her face. Just the hair was all I saw.

don't know if she knew someone was walking behind her (I may have been drooling, I'd never know).

Does that count as stalking? what if she had a regular routine and I couldn't get enough of the hair show? What's the threshold?

[Kurt_M]

Does that count as stalking? what if she had a regular routine and I couldn't get enough of the hair show? What's the threshold?

If you did it every day, yes, it would count as stalking. Even doing it once qualifies as creepy.

[atk]

I've recently started reading the book, How to Stop a Stalker (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591020913/103-2945668-8759002?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance).

While I haven't finished it, and I don't know much on the subject, and I haven't even looked into the references in the book, it comes off as very well referenced, and very authoratative. The author claims to be a former Westminster, California police detective who handled stalking investigations.


That said, the book provides several legal definitions for what stalking is, and some definitions of what constitutes stalking. Generally, my impression is:

1) The victim does not need to know s/he is being stalked to be stalked.
2) The stalker does not need to realize s/he is stalking to stalk. It would appear the the stalker rarely realizes that s/he is a stalker.
3) The stalker behaves in a manner that would cause a reasonable person to be in fear. The stalker does not have to realize that s/he is causing the victim an amount of fear. The stalker does not have to give an outright threat.

I don't remember other bits about it - and I'm only about 70 pages in.

If anyone else has read the book, or other books by Proctor, I would appreciate knowing your opinions.

[R.H. Lee]

Be preemptive. Turn it around. Start stalking the stalker. Find out everything you can about him/her. Use one of those online information services like knowx or net detective. Find weaknesses/vulnerabilities/secrets and exploit them. Within the law, of course.

[atk]

Be preemptive. Turn it around. Start stalking the stalker. Find out everything you can about him/her. Use one of those online information services like knowx or net detective. Find weaknesses/vulnerabilities/secrets and exploit them. Within the law, of course.


Be careful: you don't want to become a stalker yourself.

Also, go to the police. See if they have an anti-stalking unit. If they don't, go to the police of a larger, nearby city, and see if they have an anti-stalking unit. Find someone who actually cares about your problem, and has the power to do something about it, and get them to help.

This is not to say that you shouldn't prepare to defend yourself, or, in any way abdicate your responsibilities, of course :)

[justashooter]

I've recently started reading the book, How to Stop a Stalker (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591020913/103-2945668-8759002?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance).

While I haven't finished it, and I don't know much on the subject, and I haven't even looked into the references in the book, it comes off as very well referenced, and very authoratative.

1) The victim does not need to know...
2) The stalker does not need to realize ...
3) The stalker behaves in a manner that would cause a reasonable person to be in fear. The stalker does not have to realize that s/he is causing the victim an amount of fear. The stalker does not have to give an outright threat.

If anyone else has read the book, or other books by Proctor, I would appreciate knowing your opinions.

prosecution would require intent to cause a reasonable person to fear, or be related to action or intent to commit another crime, such as harrasment or assault. the legal definition of stalking is usually pretty clear in statute.

you can't prosecute a moron for following you and drooling, even though it might make you nervous.

[atk]

prosecution would require intent to cause a reasonable person to fear, or be related to action or intent to commit another crime, such as harrasment or assault. the legal definition of stalking is usually pretty clear in statute.

you can't prosecute a moron for following you and drooling, even though it might make you nervous.

As I said, I don't remember everything :) If I remember, I'll post better information when I'm home, again, and have the book with me.