[silverlance]

around 11:47 today in the morning.

right after lunch ended i opened my classroom door and oh no, there's two boys in white tshrits spinning through the bathroom door (which is right across from my room). one kid is about 5'9 and 185 lbs, the other is 5'8 and 135 lbs. the bigger guy has the lighter one up against the wall, both swing but then hilario (the lighter one, and as it turned out, one of my students from last year - coudln't recognize him at first from all the swinging) goes down and then the other guy starts whaling on him fist and foot. one of my 4th period (which then it was) kids goes to help pick his his homie up and gets a foot in the face for his efforts.

a dozen thoughts run through my head, but all i can think of is what will happen if i get involved and the school finds out about it. i'm about 5'7 and 160, i know i can break them up but i would have to use physical force - and if the big kid starting swinging at me i'd have to take him down or be a teacher casulty.

my room phone doesn't work (hasnt worked for years), my cell phone can't get any reception, the phone next door doesn't work, and all the security officers are at another fight (unknown to me at the time) between six or seven brown kids and four or five black kids.

i yell at them and move forward, the big kid ignores me and gets a few more kicks in before he turns to leave. at that moment another former student of mine darts out from the room next door and sucker punches the big kid, then runs back into the room.

the big kid holds his jaw and trots off, completely ignoring all orders to stay, and i turn to help up hilario who now is incoherent and spitting blood. his eyes are completely bloodshot and puffy, and his lips are bleeding.

william (the helper kid) is wheezing and bouncing about.

then everyone runs off and i feel like i should have done something more.

and, damn it, i WOULD have done something more, break up the fight, (though i'm sure everybody was guilty of several things).... but then I would have put everything I have at risk.

what if one day there's a knife? or a club? or a shooting?

do I just run inside and hide in a locked room with whichever kids happens to run inside in time? do I...

these kinds of things happen a lot, and i'm not shocked... but I wish there was more I could do to prepare for them.

anyway, just sharing a few events.

KC

[KriegHund]

If the kid had suffered braint trauma and died, how would you have felt?

But he didnt.

Tis better to try, and fail, than to do nothing and wonder.

[Henry Bowman]

Ask your principal to tell you EXACTLY what you are expected to do in such a situation. Wouldn't hurt to get it in writing. If it differs from official policy in a significant way ... well, that's why you pay all those union dues.

[solareclipse]

sadly there is not much you can do, especially in cali. you were right to fear a lawsuit if you got involved beyond verbal commands.

we had similar issues in junior high and the teachers never got involved either. now, we didn't beat each other up like that but there was plenty of physical contact.

[rick_reno]

Buy a one way bus ticket to anywhere else.

[MikeIsaj]

There are several layers of regulation involved here. There is school policy, legal obligation and the man in the mirror.

What is your schools policy? What do they expect you to do in that situation? Why doesn't the phone work? Why do you allow yourself to be at risk by not making them fix the phone? You may need to take some drastic action to push them to fix it. I'd move all my classes to the hallway, right outside the main office. You'll catch a bunch of s*^% over that but, I bet your phone gets fixed.

What does California law say about your custodial responsibility for safeguarding the students? If your school policy differs and you follow it, you could be held criminally liable.

And finally, there's a man in the mirror that you face every morning. What action. or inaction, will still allow you to look him in the eye and e comfortable that you did the right thing?

I think you already know the answer to your question.

[Devonai]

When I went to high school (1990-1994), any male teacher was willing and able to intervene, and that bully would have been blindsided and taken to the ground. Of course, this small Maine high school didn't have any slight male teachers on staff. The smallest one was my biology teacher and he was built like a tree trunk. It's too bad fear of lawsuits are keeping teachers like you from doing what you know to be right.

[El Rojo]

I wasn't there, but I know I have no fear of getting sued on my campus because I won't do anything wrong. If I have to break up a fight, I will break up the fight. There will be enough student witnesses that my version of the story will come out. I think it is a sad commentary when good people are afraid to do the right thing because of this fear of lawyers and lawsuits. If you think about it, you could just as easily get sued for failing to act and do your job of keeping the peace.

Do the right thing. Trust that if you do the right thing it will come out when the other students tell their side of the story. You know there were plenty of people watching. Also, if your students respect you, they won't let you go down for some thug who beats up on someone else. They will step forward if they have to (not in public of course) and defend you by telling the truth.

Did you at least report this to the office or security? Did you find out from the other students what the bigger kid's name was? Could you have followed the bigger kid at a distance until your cell phone worked and then called the office? Did you walk Hilario to the office at least to get checked on?

Again, if no one stands up, of course the thugs are going to run the campus. If that were the case and you aren't willing to "risk" your career to do the right thing, stop teaching. If it is just because your school is run down and you don't get any support, then move and find a new school. If you have your credential you will find a job. If you are just unwilling to do the right thing because you are scared of lawyers, find another job. These students deserve teachers who are empowered and lead by example. That takes risks. The results are worth it.

This isn't to dismiss the terrible state many of our students are in. I work at a continuation school and some of these kids make you want to just beat the tar out of them yourself. Some of them are a complete waste of air. I still run the show. I still have standards and consequences. They might not be ideal in all cases, but I still stand for something and they know about it. In school situations like that, you really aren't teaching them academics, but about life. They need people to look up to. They need models.

Teaching is something else isn't it? :banghead:

[Standing Wolf]

When I was that age, kids took fights outdoors. Even the dumbest of the dumb wouldn't have dreamt of fighting inside the school.

[Tory]

even punctuate or spell, each of which ought to be job requisites.

You expect him to break up fights, too?

That home schooling option is looking more and more viable......

[El Rojo]

Give it a rest Tory. If he is lazy on a discussion board and doesn't care how he spells, that doesn't have any bearing on his teaching ability. I find that everyone on this web board likes to translate spelling and the occassional error into condemnation and a statement about one's abilities. Maybe he typed all of that in 2 minutes. Maybe you took 30 minutes to type what you typed, then took another 5 to proof read it. Find something else to be pedantic about.

That home schooling option is looking more and more viable......Why is it more viable? What has changed in your life to make it more of a reality for you to be able to afford to home school? I don't get what you are saying. Oh maybe you meant instead of viable, which means "more capable", you meant "necessary" or possibly "attractive" or maybe even "necessary". You too might not be suitable for teaching since you implied home school is more viable when you gave no evidence that your situation has changed to where you are in a better position to home school. :rolleyes:

[Shalako]

Henry Bowman is spot on.

It is the administrators' responsibility to define clear guidance on this topic.

At my wife's high school (she teaches 9-12 Art), there was a fight between two brothers. They were wailing on each other and ignoring all pleas from teachers to stop. Two vice-principles were rushing to the scene of the action. One stood there dumbfounded while the other ran amongst the onlookers looking for someone to hold his newspaper. They did nothing. The attendance staff person ran up to one of the fighters and locked him in a bear hug from behind. He then dropped to the ground onto his side with the student in his grasp. The fight was thereby stopped.

The administrators filed a personell action against the attendance staff person for excessive force and had him removed from his job.

I sure as h don't want my wife trying to get between two kids in a fight. Her job is to fill their minds with knowledge and she can not do that if she is fired and working for Burger King.

[KriegHund]

I have an english teacher who is one of the best teachers ive ever had, and i doubt hed constantly be error free.

Just that kinda guy.

[silverlance]

I take comments like that in stride. Attempting to dismiss someone as being academically incompetent by pointing out the state of their typgraphical orthography is about as valid an argument as labeling the old guy at my range as toothless because all his gear is old, worn down, and decidedly non-tactical.

I suppose I could cleverly intersperse all my posts with subtly worded esoterica; then again, it'd all be lost on you, anyway.

anyhow, I spoke with school police (who I suspect would rather not get involved) and for the 9th time wrote out a work order to Plant Facilities and then ITD (the private phone company that is supposed to work on such things but doesn't).

I'll have to think about the wisdom of carrying pepper spray in the classroom and even more about the possible ramifications behind actually using it.

[Javelin Man]

As a teacher, I would jump in the fray and wrestle the kids apart. I would tackle the larger one and pull him off and hope the second doesn't come back. Though I am but 135 pounds and 5'7", I only weighed 119 pounds when I wrestled in college. For about 20 seconds, I have the ability to wrestle with the biggest and baddest of them before muscle fatigue kicks in. After all my inuries the past 10 years, I would need help up off the ground, but until the fight is stopped, that's where I'm holding one of the students.

I won't allow any of my students to get pummeled. I couldn't look in the mirror if I just stood by.

[scubie02]

I'd say he's a bit upset, so perhaps typing/spelling issues can be forgiven.

I work in education myself, and I know how it feels to have to worry about what's going to happen if there's an "incident", and all too often they are willing to hang you out to dry. I don't know what the law is in CA, but I can't say that it would surprise me if you weren't allowed to get physical ever. Those in the field know what a largely thankless job it is. In NY, you certainly never better touch a kid for misbehavior--they can spit in your face and say whatever they want, threaten to kill you, your family and your pets (had my life threatened before) and you better just suck it up. That having been said, if they are ever stupid enough to take a swing at you first, or if another kid's safety is at risk as in the situation you described, all bets are off and we have every right to take whatever action necessary. Which isn't to say there still wouldn't be lawsuits or something, but theoretically anyway the rules are on your side.

My first day at the school I'm at now I was in another room and heard a big crash and lots of yelling, when I went in two seniors as big or bigger than me were swinging away. I started out yelling to knock it off as I went towards them, which did no good whatsoever, and when I got to them I grabbed them both by the throat and shoved them out into the hall and towards the office to get them away from the other kids. Maybe they were looking for a way out anyway but all in all it went much better than I expected. A short while later a school official came in and said he has heard one of the kids took a swing at me and asked if I wanted to press charges. If he did with the adrenaline going I certainly didn't know it, so I said no as far as I knew nobody had intentionally hit me. Afterwards I didn't hold it against the kids and make a big deal out of it--when I was a kid the general attitude was fights happen and then its over. Never hada problem again with either kid--they seemed to appreciate me not holding it against them and acting like nothing happened. One of them still stops by once in awhile and always says hi when I run into him.

Now, I've worked at other schools where things were alot worse and you definitely had to take threats seriously, and it sounds like you're at one of those places. Bottom line, try to get out and get someplace thats at least a little better, because in the end its not worth the stress of dealing with it every day for the paltry salaries most teachers make. The disgusting part is that there are any number of other jobs where you'd make alot more money and you wouldn't have to put up with the crap. But there can also be a huge difference in the atmosphere from school to school, even in the same area.

It sucks that we live in a society where you have to question doing the right thing, but we all know its going down the drain. We have kids who are special ed that have "rage disorders"--since this is their "disability", they can get away with bringing wepons to school or whatever, and you "can't discriminate against them for a disability"--messed up, eh?

[Kim]

The world is so much more "civilized" and "progressive " today isn't it a great world. I remember my grade school principle with great fondness. SHE was great. I remember one guy who was always in trouble. She came to the room one day and picked him up by his shirt from the back and pounded him aganist the concrete walls all the way to her office where she busted his butt. I also remember my school bus driver. Had a smart mouthed teenage boy on the route. One day he just said toooo much. Bus driver slamed on the brakes and stopped the bus. You could have heard a pin drop. He went back and picked up loud mouthed teenager threw him over 3 seats and busted his butt. Attitude adjustment worked from that day forward. No qriping parents, no lawsuits, no screaming children and no police involvement. Problem solved. Now this was in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Now we have time outs, in school suspension,felony charges by the police, resource officers in the schools, parents filing law suits, diversity and tolerance training for children and teachers. We are so much more civilized --------well we are arn't we???????????????

[The Real Hawkeye]

I subbed for a couple of years at some pretty tough high schools, so I know what you are referring to. I can't tell you how many times I was told that help was just a press of a button away if there was any trouble, and then the button doesn't work, and hasn't worked in years, and everyone knows it but the office people. Sometimes you are virtually alone, and a fight is breaking out, and there's nothing you can do. Usually, both parties were spoiling for it, though. Not like one guy just started pounding on someone who was just minding his own business. A kid might get picked on who is just minding his own business, but I've never seen any serious violence against someone like that. In some schools, teaching is a great job. In others its an early burn out and a change to a different career. Try to find the first kind of school, is all I can recommend to you.

[f4t9r]

I would have had to break it up
I could live with myself alot easier knowing I tried to help then if something bad happened to the kid
Wow I didnt know I had to spell check everything and check my grammer or some people are going to look down at me.
Oh well maybe next time !!!!

[AnthonyRSS]

Rear Naked Strangle, or Mato Leo, for you Brazilians.

10 seconds and he is out.

www.bjj.org

[pete f]

I taught High school for three and a half years, leaving over the whole PC debate. In my teaching experience, we were told that physical contact with a student was a NONO. no touching, no pats on back, no intervention in physical confrontations etc. I made it a point of standing in my doorway everymorning and shaking the hands of my students everytime they entered my class room. However in the second semester I was walking out of my room when I saw a very large, (6'4", 265LB) Division 1 football recruit punching his 5'2" cheerleadergirlfriend. I ran down the hall yelling his name, pushing past several other teachers and many students and tackled him. I am 5' 8" then a solid 200 pounds and hit him with a tackle my HS football coach would have said I did not know how to do. We fell to the floor with him screaming at me and telling her he was going to kill her. A assist. Coach came running down the hall and the High School security guard showed up and I told them to take the girl to the office and I would hold him. He threw several punches at me while I tried to hold him down, finally I made up my mind he was going to stop before he killed me. A really hard knee to his groin took a lot of the fight out of him, and I got him into a half nelson and just let him try to struggle. When I finally got him calmed down, I looked up and there were about ten teachers, six of whom were men. Not one of them decided to help until I had worn him out. I was really angry. Furious over the lack of help. I was at my desk the next morning at 6 am and I was paged to the office shortly thereafter. All the principal and the district super were interested in was that I had kneed him in the groin. I was told that I would be put on suspension and to clean out my desk.
I was furious, I decided to call the girls parents (they were very active in the district and the mom had been a school board member) and check on the girl and was told she was still in the hospital. Fractured eye socket and cheek, plus a serious cut to the eyebrow and lip. They thanked me over and over again for helping when I did. They asked why I wasn't teaching class and then blew up over the idea I was suspended for physically assaulting the AH who hurt their daughter.

By the next day, I was back teaching and I decided that I was going to stick PC behaviors up the administrations wazoo. My first day back was a speach to my male students that no MAN would stand by and let another male hit a female. The girls all had an assignment to write a paper documenting the course of action for a woman to file a domestic abuse report and how to get a restraining order. The next day I was threatened with action by the school board for telling my male students that physical acts to stop violence on a woman was not just acceptable, but that it was virtually required. This violated the school boards policy but I knew I would win in a public forum, and told the school board that I would welcome sanctions and the publication of the details of the actions that had led to these results.

The boy who had started it all claimed that he was in the right because "his bitch" (his exact words to the school board) had decided to go to Prom with
another boy after he had told her she couldn't go because "prom was gay".
He was suspended for three days. However his actions and the minutes of the school board meeting somehow ended up being forwarded to all the schools he was being recruited to. :neener:

A few months later he got into a huge fight in his summer football camp dorm and it was found he was rampant 'roid monster. No scholarship offers after that.

If the actions are right, then do not fear the consequences. If I was your size and was teaching in a school with no discipline, I would find a way to carry something that would work to increase my ability. Mace, pepper spray, something like that.

[jpIII]

If you think about it, you could just as easily get sued for failing to act and do your job of keeping the peace.

Actually, I don't think so. In general, ommissions are not legally culpable. A prosecutor could argue that this is a special contractual relationship (i.e. teacher/student), but in my opinion its a strech.

(this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it :) )

[Exposure]

So when you see your students getting kicked in the face by a much larger aggressor all you can do is stop to see if your cell phone gets reception, and worry about the schools reaction to your involvment in a very serious and potentially lethal assault?

How far does the violence need to escalate before you, as a teacher, will put your precious job on the line? Kicks to the head can be fatal, suppose you were laying on the floor and someone was kicking you in the face, would you want any help? Or would you realize that the onlookers might get in some kind of trouble if they came to your aid? Yeah, better for them to stay on the sidelines and watch someone get beat to hell than risk getting in trouble!

I am SOOOOOOOO glad I don't live in California.

If the teachers in California schools don't even have the ability to control the students when one is kicking the "S**!" out of another then all hope is truly lost for California and the sooner it falls into the Pacific the better off we will all be.

Who is in charge at this school, the faculty or the students?

[Krenn]

get a specific policy statement from the principal.

appeal.

sue.

if you win during one of these steps, fine. end of problem.

If you lose, and are not willing to continue to the next step: Move.

any questions?

[silverlance]

wish i knew some "tacticaL" moves like that. ormaybe i should have just used my super ha-do-ken dragonball z power charge up hyper turbo fist barrage and then struck a cool pose over two smoking bodies.

hehe

i actually don't mind the fights, it's always just that lousy 6% of kids who f everything up for all the other ones - and fortunately, those others usually make it all enjoyable enough to show up again the next day.

besides, i like getting to be my own boss.

sort of.

okay, not realy, but i can pretend =)

[El Rojo]

I'll have to think about the wisdom of carrying pepper spray in the classroom and even more about the possible ramifications behind actually using it.You could probably gaurantee that if you used pepper spray on a kid, you would be dismissed. You might as well just carry a gun, it is more effective and the end result will still be you getting fired. Just take action. Yell at them (you did, that is a start). Do a running tackle and cold cock the aggressor. Do something. Carrying pepper spray to school isn't one of them. True no one wants to get hurt and pepper spray is a good idea, but the legal ramifications are mind boggling. Face it, schools want us to be disarmed. So you have to be disarmed. However, no one is going to successfully win a lawsuit when breaking up a fight. Second, if your students are anything like my students, their parents are disenfranchised and don't have the resources to successfully sue. If it were some rich, suburban district, yeah, you would have to worry about it. However, it is obvious you are not at that type of school as you are more worried about your safety than anything else, so don't worry about lawsuits. Do the right thing instead.

And the Dragon Ball Z thing is a little kookie. You watched a kid get his head stomped in today. It isn't something to joke about. Don't think for a second other students didn't notice your lack of action and inability to control the situation. It is time to get tough. I commend you for at least stepping forward and yelling at them. But the big kid taking a few more kicks and some squirrel running in from the side for a sucker punch shows these kids run this school and you are just like the rest of the staff, not in control. That is pretty scary if you ask me. You need to do something and moving to another school or toughening up and doing the right thing sound good to me.

Not all California schools are this way. However, they most certainly are probably different than yall back east. Again, teaching is something else. :banghead:

[Kingcreek]

get a specific policy statement from the principal.

appeal.

sue.

if you win during one of these steps, fine. end of problem.

If you lose, and are not willing to continue to the next step: Move.

any questions?

krenn's advice is clear and and correct.

Our school policy clearly allows physical intervention by an adult when the safety of the student or other students is in question. (ie "danger to self or others")
Make your concerns and requests in writing. Take them to admin, and advance them to the school board if necessary. I am speaking as an elected member of a board of education, third year as president.
Please, decide to be part of the solution or find another career.

[HD]

CYA, u c 0 , u hear 0 , u know 0...

[Byron Quick]

When I was that age, kids took fights outdoors. Even the dumbest of the dumb wouldn't have dreamt of fighting inside the school.



Standing Wolf,

That was pretty much the way it was at my school. I'm about six years yound than you. But kids in my school liked to fight and to meet you outdoors with several friends. So, yeah, tell me to meet you outside and it was on right there and then. I've knocked fellow students down in front of teachers and the vice principal. Swung at the vice principal when he grabbed me from behind. Didn't connect though and desisted when I saw who it was.

Tell you what, the fight challenges slowed down when they realized that the fight would be wherever the challenge was issued, no matter who was witnessing it.

Wasn't the dumbest of the dumb:D Graduated fourth in my class. Someone might assault me but it won't be after I followed them to a deserted venue.

[El Rojo]

I tell my students we should just get some gloves and have open challenges. Don't make it a public spectacle. Just a panel of teachers as judges. Take the kids into the gym after school, let them go a few rounds. Let them box and take out all that rage, let them go back to school the next day. Forget this zero tolerance crap, lets be realistic. Kids like to fight. Let them do it in a structured manner and let their actions speak louder than their words. :evil:

[KriegHund]

My old science teacher of 7th grade has a similar story.

Said, back in the 50's, they let the 2 kids put on gloves and fit with just the principal watching. Says 90% of the time theyd not fight a-tall.

[swordofumbra]

So when you see your students getting kicked in the face by a much larger aggressor all you can do is stop to see if your cell phone gets reception, and worry about the schools reaction to your involvment in a very serious and potentially lethal assault?

How far does the violence need to escalate before you, as a teacher, will put your precious job on the line? Kicks to the head can be fatal, suppose you were laying on the floor and someone was kicking you in the face, would you want any help? Or would you realize that the onlookers might get in some kind of trouble if they came to your aid? Yeah, better for them to stay on the sidelines and watch someone get beat to hell than risk getting in trouble!

I am SOOOOOOOO glad I don't live in California.

If the teachers in California schools don't even have the ability to control the students when one is kicking the "S**!" out of another then all hope is truly lost for California and the sooner it falls into the Pacific the better off we will all be.

Who is in charge at this school, the faculty or the students?


This reply makes all the points I was going to. Very well stated. I just don't understand how a teacher could even stop themselves from diving into the fray and straightening the damn kids out.

[joab]

then everyone runs off and i feel like i should have done something more. Next time I would act on that feeling.
A boot to the head is an assault with a deadly weapon.

You have stated that you have the physical ability to have stopped a kid from possibly being killed or permanently disabled but were afraid to because you may lose your job or be sued.

I would find another job <Grammaw wuz here>

[psyopspec]

In the last 6 years of my public education I was only involved in one altercation. Teacher intervened, the other party admitted to being the agressor in front of the principal, but we both got suspended anyways. I thought THAT was insane.

We have kids who are special ed that have "rage disorders"--since this is their "disability", they can get away with bringing wepons to school or whatever, and you "can't discriminate against them for a disability"--messed up, eh?

I'd love to see a school board or a judge from this area have a case like this put in front of them. Not to imply any sort of superiority, but since it would go over like a wet fart in church, that meeting or trial would be quite the amusing spectacle.

[Jayock]

Anyone know what ever happened to the principal that intervened in the school shooting a few years back. Went to his car, got a shotgun, and ended that kids shooting spree himself, dont think he ended up shooting the kid, but got him to give up. I dont know id give the kid the same courtesy. Id be curious to know how that went over for the principal.

[Nematocyst]

Wow.

All the way from "how do I stimulate my students to think critically and avoid logical fallacy (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=163747)" to "watched a student get his a' kicked" in less than 24 hours.

{Hey, troy; look. I misspelled a vulgar reference to anal orifice. So what? Can you spell "ad hominem"?}

This is why I decided by the end of high school to never teach high school. Taught college instead. But after: 1) being on the faculty at a college with the third heaviest teaching load in the US; 2) experiencing the worst political crap between faculty & administration I've ever experienced (84 full-time facutly, 16 of us left in one year; and 3) hearing a story from a colleague about a deranged student that walked into class one day with a hunting bow and arrows, I decided to leave mainstream education for good. (Now own my own independent, college-level school where I teach small classes to professionals and interested people, but that's another story.)

But I digress.

Keep your spirit up, Silverlance. You've gotten good advice in this thread. You did the right thing. And next time, you'll still do the right thing.

Nem

[The Real Hawkeye]

You could probably gaurantee that if you used pepper spray on a kid, you would be dismissed. You might as well just carry a gun, it is more effective and the end result will still be you getting fired. Just take action. Yell at them (you did, that is a start). Do a running tackle and cold cock the aggressor. Do something. Carrying pepper spray to school isn't one of them. True no one wants to get hurt and pepper spray is a good idea, but the legal ramifications are mind boggling. Face it, schools want us to be disarmed. So you have to be disarmed. However, no one is going to successfully win a lawsuit when breaking up a fight. Second, if your students are anything like my students, their parents are disenfranchised and don't have the resources to successfully sue. If it were some rich, suburban district, yeah, you would have to worry about it. However, it is obvious you are not at that type of school as you are more worried about your safety than anything else, so don't worry about lawsuits. Do the right thing instead.

And the Dragon Ball Z thing is a little kookie. You watched a kid get his head stomped in today. It isn't something to joke about. Don't think for a second other students didn't notice your lack of action and inability to control the situation. It is time to get tough. I commend you for at least stepping forward and yelling at them. But the big kid taking a few more kicks and some squirrel running in from the side for a sucker punch shows these kids run this school and you are just like the rest of the staff, not in control. That is pretty scary if you ask me. You need to do something and moving to another school or toughening up and doing the right thing sound good to me.

Not all California schools are this way. However, they most certainly are probably different than yall back east. Again, teaching is something else. :banghead:We shouldn't need teachers who are big and strong enough to tackle huge kids. I'm 5'10" 200 pounds, and there are plenty of high school kids I wouldn't think of tackling. Problem kids need to be permanently removed from school.

Based on two years of subbing for some rough schools, my conclusion is that there needs to be three situations for school-aged kids to be in: 1) for those who demonstrate a desire to learn academic material without causing disruption to other students, 2) for those who demonstrate a persistent disinterest in academic material, but who are nonviolent and capable of learning practical skills which might lead to a trade, and 3) for those kids who lack enough self control to be in any kind of school environment, i.e., give these kids back to their parents, permanently, never again to step into a school building of any kind at tax payer expense.

[12-34hom]

Silverlance, what if that had your kid getting the tar beaten out of him, would you want another teacher or bystander to intervene?

12-34hom.

[El Rojo]

Based on two years of subbing for some rough schools, my conclusion is that there needs to be three situations for school-aged kids to be in: 1) for those who demonstrate a desire to learn academic material without causing disruption to other students, 2) for those who demonstrate a persistent disinterest in academic material, but who are nonviolent and capable of learning practical skills which might lead to a trade, and 3) for those kids who lack enough self control to be in any kind of school environment, i.e., give these kids back to their parents, permanently, never again to step into a school building of any kind at tax payer expense.Wouldn't that be nice. I agree we need to get back to vocational training. I like the teaching standards, but the emphasis placed on them by testing is wrong. Sure, if I teach world history, stick to the standards. However, we shouldn't focus so much on these standardized tests to rate our schools and our teachers. It does nothing for our students. We need to have vocational training for those who simply aren't going to college. I deal with a lot of those students. Lets give them something to look forward to going to school for. Currently, we don't have it.

The kids who don't care, that would be nice to get rid of them. However, at this time teachers are simply teen day care. That is why the parent sends them to school so they don't have to deal with them. You can't just send them home as that is why they go to school to begin with, to get away from home. I say create a work program. In California we could have them work in the fields. When they get tired of busting their butts along side of Jose all day long in the hot or the cold, they can come back and go to school.

Ah dreaming, now back to reality.

[antarti]

He went back and picked up loud mouthed teenager threw him over 3 seats and busted his butt. Attitude adjustment worked from that day forward. No qriping parents, no lawsuits, no screaming children and no police involvement. Problem solved. Now this was in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Now we have time outs, in school suspension,felony charges by the police, resource officers in the schools, parents filing law suits, diversity and tolerance training for children and teachers. We are so much more civilized --------well we are arn't we???????????????

And I had a bus driver who didn't like going into "ethnictown" and giving us rides to school, and would routinely stab the brakes in such a way that we would get thrown under the seats, bruised, etc.

And then there was that teensy-weensie incident where the KKK (about 80 of them) came and busted up our HS, kicking a pregnant "minority" girl in the stomach, causing her to lose her baby.

Yeah, those were the GOOD OLD DAYS eh?

On a bright note: Thank goodness every teacher had the sense to get out there and mix it up with the Klansmen, even though they had pipes, chains, whips, etc. and keep them largely tied up (and away from most of the student body) until the SWAT team arrived.

The fight has always been between those with a conscience, and those without. That isn't going to change anytime soon. My own wife was rudely cursed, then threatened by a PARENT with physical violence if her kid was suspended for his behavior (bringing a large knife to school, and not something TSA would call a knife, I mean a long divers knife). The parent was outraged because they didn't want to have the child around all day. The child was in 1st grade for chrissakes.

As far as helpful suggestions:

One possible loophole to talk to a lawyer about is defining intervention in terms of any "good samaritan" laws that might be in effect in your state. Might not save your job, but may keep you from being arrested.

Also, I would shed as much sunlight on this sad state of affairs as possible, maybe contacting local media. Nothing like transparency in this matter to get parents/PTA outraged and concerned over their kids safety. Use the "it's for the children" mentality for a good cause, for a change.

There are licenses you can train to get from Child Therapists or Dept. Of Children & Families (whatever its called in your state) that allow you to put children and young adults in "theraputic holds" for their own safety. I would pursue one of these if I were you. Nothing like having a license to hold somebody down, easily presented to police or anybody trying to sue for rough handling.

I feel for you, and applaud you for caring. You have my kindest regards.

[HankB]

i just saw one of my students get the S**! kicked out of him . . . my room phone doesn't work (hasnt worked for years), my cell phone can't get any reception, the phone next door doesn't work, and all the security officers are at another fight (unknown to me at the time) between six or seven brown kids and four or five black kids.
Take another look at what you wrote - you don't work in a school, you work in a zoo.

[Hawkmoon]

Ask your principal to tell you EXACTLY what you are expected to do in such a situation. Wouldn't hurt to get it in writing. If it differs from official policy in a significant way ... well, that's why you pay all those union dues.
Second that.

Better yet, submit the inquiry in writing, and insist that the response be in writing. If you disagree with what the response says, submit a grievance through your teachers' union.

Teachers today are hamstrung by political correctness and fear of litigation. When I was in high school sortly after the end of the Civil War, there was no question what would have happened. Any teacher who came upon a student kicking another student on the floor would have grabbed the kicker by the shirt and thrown him against the wall -- hard. If that student had moved an inch after that, he would have been suspended instantly. (Probably would get suspended anyway, for the fight, but not doing what a teacher ordered would have iced the cake.)

[Hawkmoon]

One possible loophole to talk to a lawyer about is defining intervention in terms of any "good samaritan" laws that might be in effect in your state. Might not save your job, but may keep you from being arrested.

Once again -- "good Samaritan" laws pertain to relieving doctors and paramedical personnel of personal liability if they stop and render medical assistance at the scene of an accident (or assault). "Good Samaritan" laws have NOTHING to do with intervening in fights.

There may be some other laws in your state that address intervention in fights, and I don't mean to dissuade anyone from asking an attorney. But if you're going to talk about "good Samaritan" laws, at least have an idea what they are -- and what they aren't.

[dpesec]

I'll have to think about the wisdom of carrying pepper spray in the classroom and even more about the possible ramifications behind actually using it.

Watch that. In some palces that's still considered a weapon and not allowed in school. When I was involved in teaching in the public primary and secondary schools, the instructions were us the intercom and do not ever try and break up a fight. NO MATTER WHAT. I'm glad I never had to make a choice, because I'm not sure I could stand by and watch some poor kid get the daylights beat out of him/her.

[OMCHamlin]

From time to time, life tests us in ways that may not SEEM important at the time, but are actually defining moments for us. OK, you just had one and you fell short. This time. By reading the tone of your post, I suspect that deep down inside you know this, but were hoping that maybe you had misread the judgement that you passed on yourself and that we would somehow vindicate you. We cannot. Learn from this and resolve to try to do right next time, if you are given another oppurtunity. Good luck.

Chris

And listen, take heart, you are not alone, we have all failed in some regard at something important to us, as this has proven to be to you. But if we have never tasted failure, how could success ever matter to us?

[blackguns]

If the fight was as one sided as this one sounds I don't think I could stop myself from stepping in.

if it's two 250lbs linemen and it's a pitched battle I'd probably pop some popcorn and watch.....if it's anyone in serious danger of death I'd have to step up and take action.

Jobs come and go, lawsuits are no joke but haven't killed anyone (that I'm aware of)

No matter what I have to live with the man in the mirror for the rest of my life. The way I was raised a man is only a man if he stands for what is right regardless of the consequences.

Courage is not a lack of fear.....it's action in spite of fear.

[Kim]

Get a grip. Everything in life does not involve racism..None of the things I mentioned did. I've never seen all the racism everyone is always blathering about. And I live in the South. I know others have. But not everyone has personally seen the KKK. The only stlightly racist thing I ever saw was directed at me by a black girl in college. One incident in my personal life. That is it. Man there is a racist under every bed.:rolleyes: Back to the subject at hand. There is no good solution. One reason many do not want to teach and some who are currently teaching would love to quit. I come from a family of 5 teachers. Of the 4 still teaching all would quit if they could afford it. If a private school were around they would all work there for less pay gladly.

[wingnutx]

wish i knew some "tacticaL" moves like that.

Punt his nuts like a football from behind.


pete f - good job man!

It's difficult to get me into a fight, but some ahole striking a girl will do it in an instant.

[antarti]

Of the 4 still teaching all would quit if they could afford it

I have the opposite issue, I would teach if I could afford to take care of my family on that paycheck.

[blackguns]

wingnutx

It's difficult to get me into a fight, but some ahole striking a girl will do it in an instant.

I'm with you.....blood will flash boil.

[AnthonyRSS]

I think Silverlance needs some Martial Arts training.

I suggest judo or Brazilian Jujitsu,

To learn to control someone without bashing their brains in.

Anthony

[GhostRider66]

We have here a "teacher" who cannot even punctuate or spell, each of which ought to be job requisites.

Nice going with the punctuation yourself. Ever heard of a comma splice. :neener:

[Nematocyst]

From time to time, life tests us in ways that may not SEEM important at the time, but are actually defining moments for us. OK, you just had one and you fell short. This time. By reading the tone of your post, I suspect that deep down inside you know this, but were hoping that maybe you had misread the judgement that you passed on yourself and that we would somehow vindicate you. We cannot. Learn from this and resolve to try to do right next time, if you are given another oppurtunity. Good luck.

Chris

And listen, take heart, you are not alone, we have all failed in some regard at something important to us, as this has proven to be to you. But if we have never tasted failure, how could success ever matter to us? Chris, I write this with respect to you, because I don't think you are being mean-spirited at all with your words, but are trying to be supportive. But I respectfully wish to pick a couple of words with you: "fell short"

AND, IMO, I'll humbly suggest that there is NO single correct answer to this issue. This isn't a multiple choice test, AND none of us but Silverlance were there. When push came to shove, even he didn't have the full story. He hasn't specified, for example, what started the fight. Did the little guy pull a weapon on the big guy, or maliciously kick him in some painful place for no reason? (Nota bene: I'm NOT defending the big guy, or condoning the fight for ANY reason. I'm just saying we're making judgements and recommendations to Silverlance based on less data than a jury would hopefully have.)

Personally, I choose to say that Silverlance did NOT "fall short". To use that phrase is to condemn his actions as a "failure". As a teacher, I know that those kinds of phrases, as good intentioned as they may be, can be morale busters.

Negative feedback is important for learning. But how we couch that negative feedback in words is important.

He did what his gut instinct said to do. First, he attempted to break up the fight verbally, but the big guy didn't respond. In the next three seconds, he's got to make a judgement about what to do next, knowing the rules of his school (or thinking he does), trying to make a fast judgement about a situation that he's never faced before. I'm going to make the assumption that our forum colleague SL is not a "veteran" teacher who's been on the job for many years, who might have known instinctively what to do. In a first case scenario, he didn't.

By taking those extra seconds to evaluate the situation, admittedly, one student was more severely injured than he might have been. BUT had he not taken those extra seconds, had he jumped in and started pummeling the big guy, he could have lost his job, and, IMO, that would have been the "short fall", not only for him, but for his students. It's already clear to me that Silverlance is a cut above the average teacher. To lose him from that school system would be the short fall.

The fact that he has posted another thread on critical thinking (see my original post to him in this thread) AND the fact that he came onto this forum to discuss the issue publicly, asking advise from a large number of folks that he doesn't even know (because he knows that he will therefore get unbiased opinions) leads me to say that he did NOT fall short. No way, no how.

Silverlance, I say again, emphatically: you did the right thing, and if you face it again, you will do the right thing again. You may act differently next time around, but you will do the right thing.

I'm reminded of a statement from Mel Gibson's fillm Braveheart. Young Wallace is in a dream, and his dead father says to him [paraphrasing], "Follow your heart, and it will set you free."

Just an opinion; no truth implied.

Nem

[silverlance]

i'm currently at work right now - conference period - so ill make this short.

I wasn't being flippant. i just like to joke (black comedy, if you will) about rough things as a way of dealing with it.

we are ordered never to use force, or to touch anyone. we are not to even shake hands if at all possible. NEVER touch a girl on the shoulder.

i'm a probationary teacher. that means i don't have the protection of tenure. in other words, if i even SMELL like a future liability that will be a PITA to get rid of they'll preemptively drop me now.

nor am i a ninja, or even a mall ninja. I don't know any way to stop someone from trying to stomp someone else other than full-on, neck-grabbing head-bashing. if i had stepped it, my only reliable option would be to push the other kid away. if he swung at me then, i would have had to do my best to kick his arse. and then get fired - because i don't have the knowledge to fill in the gap between "watch warily" and "kick butt".

to compound this all, jobs aren't easy to come by in my field. if i get fired as a teacher, my chances of getting hired somewhere else would be severely diminished if not erased. i would also be removed from the advanced teacher training program that i'm in, my scholarships would be taken away, and my loan reductions reversed.

to make it short, i can't lose this job.

...

but what about the man in the mirror?

i suppose it all comes down to several things:

1. i need to learn methods of intermediate combat; "compliance strikes", if you will.

2. i need to discuss what to do in future situations with my colleague next door.

3. I need to confer with my admins more frequently so that i can at least have a chance of their support should an incident arise - hopefully they would know and like me enough to be willing to vouch for my intentions.

...

final note: I DELIBERATELY chose to work in this area. I did so because while I believe meeting low-lifes with the business end of, well, you know - i also believe that it would be much better for everyone concerned if the low-lifes never came to be in the first place. it's hopeless, of course - i'll never make much of a difference - but a little bit goes a long way toward that man in the mirror.

edit** just read the couple posts that went up since i had to stop typing when lunch break ended. thanks for all the support guys, and yes, while I DO feel that I in some way "fell short", the alternative of simply acting without thinking things clearly might have been disastrous.

I also want to note that oftentimes, what may seem like one situation at first may in fact be quite another. what if the kid on the floor had pulled a knife on the big kid and tried to stick him in the bathroom? and the big kid had fought back and got the better of him? what if i got between them, pinned down the big kid, and god forbid, hilario gets back up and guts him while I'm holding him down?

next day's headlines: Arsenal of 12,000 rounds of ammunition, Assault weapons & 43 combat knives found in Home raid of LAUSD teacher who held down student for another to knife 17 times. Annonymous sources suggest gang connection ....

[El Rojo]

I disagree with Nematocyst. He obviously felt he could have done more to stop the fight. He chose not to because of a monetary and time issues. That doesn't seem right to me. The circus that followed after the fight proves that there is little control in this school. These kids are looking for someone to stand up and take charge. They are looking for role models. No one stood up for Hilario. They yelled. What a risk.

Again, if you can't justify pushing a kid off of another kid, then you shouldn't be in this business. If that bigger kid starts swinging your way, back off, keep backing off. Give Hilario a chance to not get his head kicked in anymore. You don't have to escalate the fight and take the kid on, you just need him to stop what he is doing. Obviously the other kid that came out and sucker punched him felt the call to action. He lived through it. I am not saying sucker punch the kid, but do something other than just standing there and yell.

I just get the feeling that so many teachers are scared of not getting tenure or are scared of getting sued or are scared of this or scared of that. We need teachers with courage. Teachers willing to stand up and say what is right and say what is wrong. Teachers who say screw lawyers and screw the people who are trying to perpetuate this continuous cycle of waste called our public school systems. Sure I don't feel too good about my odds with my continuation students, but I don't care. Someone has to teach them and I am going to do my best. I know some of them are a waste, but there are a few who aren't and I am going to do my best. I am not going to cower down and only talk about nice PC or liberal ideas because the establishment doesn't want me to go against their enslavement of society. Screw them. I am going to do what is right. And if someone wants to take me on for it, lets do it.

Just like Pete F. He stood up and when they came for him, he did the right thing and fought back. HE WON! With the number of teacher shortages around here, you won't have a hard time finding a job. If teachers can sleep with their students, cuss in class, read the paper all day long, and do other hosts of rediculous and reprehensible things on campus, you sure as heck should be able to stop a fight. Do the right thing. I think next time you will.

[grampster]

Didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if I repeat something.
The teacher's union ought to press the county to deputize each teacher so that you are able to react physically to keep the peace without fear of lawsuit.

[Hawkmoon]

we are ordered never to use force, or to touch anyone. we are not to even shake hands if at all possible. NEVER touch a girl on the shoulder.

...

i suppose it all comes down to several things:

1. i need to learn methods of intermediate combat; "compliance strikes", if you will.

2. i need to discuss what to do in future situations with my colleague next door.

3. I need to confer with my admins more frequently so that i can at least have a chance of their support should an incident arise - hopefully they would know and like me enough to be willing to vouch for my intentions.
Well, if you have already been ordered never to use force, why did you post this topic? How do you propose to reconcile "Never use force!" with the use of "compliance strikes" (which are, by definition, force)?

Forget number 3. In a bureaucratic world such as public education, the best of intentions will ALWAYS lose to the written policy. There is no such thing as support of the admins. If the policy is "no contact," then there is NO WAY they will ever risk their own security by supporting you for going counter to POLICY. Remember, public schools are the bastions of zero tolerance policies. Public schools are the places that use a rule against guns in schools to suspend and expel students who use their thumb and forefinger to point at an object or person. Turn to the PTB (Powers That Be) for support after intervening physically in a fight and I expect the response will be along the lines of, "Yes, Mr. Silverlance, I understand why you acted as you did and your motives were commendable. However, as commendable as your motives were, your actions were in violation of school board policy and as a result I'm afraid you are terminated, effective immediately.

"Have a nice day."

[silverlance]

because the "order" comes not from an official source, but rather an "under the table official" source - if you understand what i mean. I could never go on tv and say that so and so told me never to protect my kids sound something happen because there are never any witnesses.

when i was first hired i was brought into a "community room" and one on one i was strongly urged never to lay hands on anybody. i then posed the situation that happened yesterday and then the woman said, "try to hold his hands". of course, she was also 72 and the last time she taught in the classroom was in 1977.

el rojo, i do believe that I "fell short", but not because I failed to do something I should have. rather, i failed to do something that I wanted to, shouldn't have, but wished i had.

all this happened within the space of about 14 seconds. by the time I thought about what I could do, it was over.

quite frankly, i still don't know what i'd do next time. hopefully, though, i'll come up with something. and yes, i don't believe admin will ever vouch for me. they are all hoping for promotion to some cushy HQ seat one day and the current trend in CA is to blame teachers for not doing their job.

which, of course, is true in some cases.

[hso]

Tennessee is looking for more teachers.