9mm for deer?


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Starter52
November 2, 2005, 10:28 PM
We have a bit of a problem at my club and I could use some advice.

There is an older gentleman who bought a 9mm carbine, one of those lightweight plastic ones. He's been shooting up the metal all fall, doing fairly well, and just announced that he plans on using the gun to hunt deer this month. Says he likes the handiness of the carbine when walking the hills.

We are totally against this, of course; feeling that a 9mm is not at all adequate for deer. We've offered to loan his a more suitable gun, but he refuses. He IS going to use the 9mm carbine for deer. (This is legal here, with a 5-shot magazine.)

Since his mind is made up, can anyone recommend a 9mm factory round for him to use? Hopefully he won't spot a deer this season, but if he does, is there a load that you could recommend?

Any help would be appreciated. Prehaps there's a state trooper out there who's had to kill a deer with his service auto? Or someone with livestock experience? Some real-life experience with the 9mm carbine would be most welcome. Thanks.

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f4t9r
November 2, 2005, 10:37 PM
Like you I would recommend a bigger Cal. for deer
maybe a special home defense round or something , really need to talk him into bigger than 9mm

R.W.Dale
November 2, 2005, 10:50 PM
Believe it or not I've chronographed lone of these carbines and some 9mm loads from the rifle rival .357magnum velocities in a handgun. Some of the 124 gr hertenberger +P+ loads chronoed 1450 fps! I would reccomend staying away from personal defense ammo you need penatration and PD ammo won't deliver.

Go with a good hardcast bullet with a nice flat point after all a 35 caliber hole has been killing deer for many a year.

OR... you could use +P+ loaded gold dots and shootem in the neck-head:rolleyes:

The Bushmaster
November 2, 2005, 10:58 PM
Why yes...I can recommend a good hunting round for this ol' geezer...Anything from .30-30 to what ever strikes his fancy. all (anything) except the "wonder nine" (capitals omitted deliberately). You have got to be kidding...How long has he been hunting and in a sane mind (also known as "right mind")...:banghead: That's like hittin' a GU11 with a BB gun...:what: :D

karlsgunbunker
November 2, 2005, 11:44 PM
These guy's use the Hi-Point Carbine to hunt on their ranch.

http://www.ddranch.com/

Just throwing in some info for the debate.

sumpnz
November 3, 2005, 12:44 AM
Well, Barnes does make a 9mm handgun bullet (http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodxpb-pistol.php). It's only 115gr, and in good conscience I can't reacommend it for deer hunting. But it may be one of the better choices out there for a generally inadequte caliber choice. It'd be fine for a close range head shot though.

AnthonyRSS
November 3, 2005, 12:47 AM
There was someone on the boards that has taken deer with 1911 9mm and .45. Who was it? Don't remember off the top of my head...

Lupinus
November 3, 2005, 01:52 AM
Im not an experienced deer hunter or anything but I would say he is crazy.

Yeah the hold might be big enough but bullet size and the cartrige type are two different things. .32ACP is considered a weak round yet a 30-30 is a smaller bullet, and certianly smaller then a 9mm or .40, yet one of the most popular deer calibers ever more deer have arguably been killed by it then any other.

Just bullet size is half the battle the bullet shape and cartridge is the other half of it.

9mm would be a fine sidearm if you find the deer down but still alive but unless he plans to be about five feet from the deer Id vote agianst a 9mm.

forquidder
November 3, 2005, 02:06 AM
It can be done with the 9mm cartridge and a competent rifleman OR pistolero.
http://hipowersandhandguns.com/FieldReportDeer.htm
He would need to use a bullet weight/velocity similar to what he practices with or begin practicing with what he is going to hunt with so he knows where the bullet is going to impact and has his gun sighted in to that particular round.

BigSlick
November 3, 2005, 02:08 AM
Pool your funds, go buy a 18 lb beef brishet, set it up about 100 yds out, them have him shoot it with the 9mm carbine. Walk down and take a look, making sure he is able to see the devastation (sic).

Walk back to the line and hit the brisket with a 30-30 (or another suitable round). Walk him down and take another look.

If he can't recognize the obvious difference between the two, or still refuses to choose a round that can provide a humane kill, then take the gun away from him and have him committed to a mental institution.

People like that are just stupid or too hard-headed to understand reason... plain and simple.

If he is looking for light, a nice wood gripped 35 Remington 10" Contender will fit the bill nicely.

BigSlick

MNgoldenbear
November 3, 2005, 04:11 AM
Impossible? No. Unwise? Quite likely. Other states have regulations on cartridges that are permissible. Is this not the case here? (Or is it simply a bore diameter restriction?) Yeah, he can probably get the cartridge performance up in the carbine barrel. If he loads, perhaps run it with a heavier bullet and slow powder. A comparison was made to the 357. Note that the 158 grain and heavier bullets are usually recommended for it, and it is still considered marginal for small deer at close range (granted, in a pistol). Not that an animal can't be killed by a 9mm, but it doesn't seem to be "enough gun" to give much leeway in distance or bullet placement. Is this guy good enough to hit where he needs to under field conditions and pass up questionable shots (distance, angle, etc.)? If not, he should shoot something heavier. Not that this relieves one of the responsibility for the previous criteria -- it simply makes it easier to meet them.

danhei
November 3, 2005, 04:29 AM
Colorado has caliber and energy limits for rifle and handgun for big game. Rifle: .24 or greater and 1000 lb-ft at 100 yards. Handgun: .24 or greater and 550 lb-ft at 50 yards. Does your state have anything similar? There can't be a 9mm load on the planet that would qualify for handgun, much less rifle.

redneck2
November 3, 2005, 07:45 AM
Having worked in a gun shop, you can't believe the number of "experts" that would argue that a BB gun could kill an elephant. The level of stupidity continually amazed me

My favorite was when .410 slugs were approved for deer. It amazed me how many guys thought this would be "the ultimate deer round". When I pointed out that it was a .41 caliber vs. .712 for a 12 gauge, the same speed and 1/5th of the weight, they just stood there slack-jawed

Can it work? Yeah, about anything can work in the right circumstances. The poacher's favorite weapon is a spotlight and .22 but it's far from ideal.

With an individual like this, I suspect there is no amount of logic that would persuade him. Unfortunately it's the deer that will suffer.

BluesBear
November 3, 2005, 07:45 AM
I'd advise against it. But if he is set in his ways make sure he knows that shotplacement will be extremely crucial to prevent wounding and needless suffering.

There have been many whitetail deer taken with .357 handguns. 9mm from a carbine should be able to do it with a proper load.

Doug b
November 3, 2005, 09:53 AM
"Fairly well" will not be good enough with a round that is designed to wound not kill.I hope the old geezer is just going woods bumming and not really into the hunt.

antarti
November 3, 2005, 10:23 AM
I've used my M1 carbine for woods hunting of deer and boar, and it works quite well with the Federal softpoints. We are talking 110grn @ 2000fps, but ranges not exceeding 50-75 yards MAX. There is no visibility beyond 30-75 yards where I hunt; thick stuff.

I love light and handy carbines in the woods, to the point I eschew everything else. Even if he's looking at bow-hunting distance, I'd still call a 9mm marginal, and I'm predisposed toward what he seems to like. He's going a little too light.

Can you talk him into a Mech-Tech in .460 Rowland? That would make a nice thumper for woods ranges.

wolf_from_wv
November 3, 2005, 11:52 AM
In WV, it is a "rifle using centerfire ammunition"...

Do the WinClean bullets have an exposed lead tip?

Gold Dot +P+ (HiPoints are rated +P+)

mohican
November 3, 2005, 12:38 PM
maybe at close range with the heavier (147gr?) solid or hollopoint? It would be about the same proposition as shooting deer with a .357 handgun. It probably won't do what I like a deer round to do, break both shoulders and exit. But at say 50 yards and under with a heart shot from 1/4 away presentation I would say barely adequate.

When handgun hunting became legal during the mid 80s, I killed several deer cleanly with a .357 before experts convinced me that .44 mag was the minimum :D

ChristopherG
November 3, 2005, 01:07 PM
Okay, it's a bad idea, but that's obviously not the question. The question was, what factory load would be the best of a bad lot, and here is my proposal for an answer:

a 147 gr. Gold Dot bullet loaded by Georgia arms to +p levels.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm

Best chance of adequate penetration with expansion to damage the boiler room once it's in there. Tell him to avoid bones, and make sure he knows where to shoot, and takes only a broadside shot.

therealsteamer
November 3, 2005, 01:44 PM
I did't go through the website that u gave very well to see that they actually use the highpoint carbine, but IIRC (gone to get current handbook) in Ohio the minimal caliber to hunt deer is .357 a 9mm is .355. if this is the case that would make hunting with a 9mm illegal. Right?:confused: :uhoh:

From the 2005-2005 Ohio hunting regulations

Gun Season and Youth Deer Gun Season:

10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel (rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition); or muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger; or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger.
Also isn't the 9 considered a tapered case?

Hook686
November 3, 2005, 01:49 PM
Though not what I'd choose, gotta remember that folks was killing deer long before the first gun sparked a loud KA-BOOM ! Maybe the old guy will get real close and plant a perfect hit.



Hook686

NCP24
November 3, 2005, 02:11 PM
Though not what I'd choose, gotta remember that folks was killing deer long before the first gun sparked a loud KA-BOOM ! Maybe the old guy will get real close and plant a perfect hit. My father-in-law swears up and down that he never lost a deer hunting with a 22lr. He claimed it was cheap, quiet and one shot in the neck would drop them where they stood. Thereís a lot to be said about shot placement.

Sharps Shooter
November 3, 2005, 05:03 PM
NCP24, I don't know where you or your father-in-law lives, but here in Idaho, killing deer with a 22lr is called "poaching," not "deer hunting."

sumpnz
November 3, 2005, 05:10 PM
For factory loads, Buffalo Bore (http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#9mm) sells a 147gr load that is +p+ rated. Who knows what kind of velocity you'd get from a carbine barrel (the listed velocities were from pistols), but that might be one of the better choices among factory loads.

Cosmoline
November 3, 2005, 05:16 PM
9.3mm, yes. 9x19--not unless it's really cranked up out of a carbine and even then it's marginal. The 9x19 was not designed to hunt anything with four legs.

RyanM
November 3, 2005, 06:30 PM
147 gr Winchester Supreme SXT (the civilian stuff, not the Ranger Talons) has terrible expansion and overpenetrates like crazy. Not a good recipe for defensive ammo, but may be suitable for hunting deer.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/9mm/win9-147ssxt-g26.htm

pcf
November 3, 2005, 06:54 PM
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=63121&highlight=9mm+deer

Whitetail deer have chest cavities that are similar in size to human chest cavities (both 8-10" across). If it will work on people, it will work on deer. Keep the distances reasonable, should work fine.

Cosmoline
November 3, 2005, 07:25 PM
Yes--but how well does it even work on people :D

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/canofworms2.jpg

Jeeper
November 3, 2005, 07:42 PM
As long as you use it at the ranges that humans are shot and use like 5 rounds then I will say it is ok. Otherwise I dont think so.

wolf_from_wv
November 3, 2005, 08:24 PM
10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge shotgun using one ball or one rifled slug per barrel (rifled shotgun barrels are permitted when using shotgun slug ammunition); or muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger; or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger.
Also isn't the 9 considered a tapered case?

That says .357 or larger in a pistol - not a rifle... I always thought that Ohio didn't allow rifles, or maybe it was just semiauto rifles. I thought you could only use shotguns, muzzleloaders, and pistols... Maybe that's only in certain areas... Maybe I think too much...

So, on to proper shot placement...

trickyasafox
November 3, 2005, 09:07 PM
within a reasonable range and careful shot placement i think it would be fine. if the guy is serious about hunting he's probably also serious about taking the game humanly, and if he restricts himself to archery distances i think its accomplishable out of a 9mm carbine. i second the georgia arms stuff. i've heard great things about them. as for other factory loads though im at a loss, as i shoot either cheapie 9mm or my reloads:(

black hills has a 147gr jhp that might work
winchester has a 147gr flat point i'd consider too
they also have a "supreme expansion" in the 147 gr class that probably would serve the needs well

all of these are available on midwayusa.com too.

ideal? obviously a lot of people here don't think so. but if it's all the guy feels he can handle and shoot well enough to give him a clean kill, then i'd support it over another gun he may not be as competent with

robertbank
November 3, 2005, 09:23 PM
I believe Stephen A. Camp has taken deer with his 9MM HI-Powers down in Texas. I respect his views and I am sure he would not do it unless he felt the gun was capable of taking deer at reasonably close range.

Stephen can speak to the subject better than I.

Stay Safe

ChristopherG
November 3, 2005, 09:39 PM
I believe Mr. Camp is a fan of the Hornady XTP bullet (124 gr), but over a charge of Unique significantly higher than anyone is loading commercially. Such is my memory, but he may have used others as well.

The Bushmaster
November 3, 2005, 09:55 PM
pcf...It takes anywhere from 6 to 13 9 X 19mm rounds to stop a man. And 18 rounds to drop a 85 year old lady holding a broom (cops thought it was a shotgun).:mad:

Cosmoline...I love that can of worms...Goin' fishin'???:D

If memory serves me right (and I'm a senior citizen). california requires that it be any center fire firearm...Their thinking is that a hunter is smart enough to know what works and what does not work...And I agree. .22 is for illegal hunting only...:mad:

BluesBear
November 3, 2005, 11:35 PM
Wolf is right, according to the ordinance quotes, rifle hunting is not allowed.

I know the same goes for neighboring Kentucky. For the most part you just cannot hunt deer with a rifle there either. (unless they changed it after I moved away)


The ordinance said "straight walled" it didn't say "parallel walled".
And even though the 9mm is tapered it is till a straight walled cartridge.
It has no shoulder or separate neck.

therealsteamer
November 4, 2005, 01:22 AM
Kentucky will allow a rifle to be used for deer hunting, if this is not the case then a buddy of mine has been taking his .270 down therefor the last several years and is up to no good. He can't however take any of the elk in the county where the huntin' cabin is.

Michael Courtney
November 4, 2005, 02:01 AM
My colleagues, children, and I have shot a number of deer with sabot 9mm pistol bullets from a muzzleloader at velocities comparable to a 9mm carbine. It's not an optimal choice for sport hunting of deer, but it will work. As with any bullet, shot placement is critical. Reliable expansion is also critical, but you don't need more than 12" of penetration with broadside chest hits. Any one of the Speer Gold Dot loads will give 12-16" of penetration and reliable expansion at close ranges. The trajectory is better with the 115 and 124 grain loads. I also like the 115 and 124 grain Hornady XTP. As they both give reliable expansion and good penetration. The XTP and Gold Dot designs are both pretty accurate as well.

I don't like the 147 grain loads for this application. The trajectory is too arched at 100 yards, there's a lot of wind drift, and the bullet may have slowed down below it's expansion threshold. The added barrel length doesn't usually add as much velocity to 147 grain bullets as it does to lighter bullets. In addition, the deer we've shot with 147 grain bullets tend to travel significantly further than the deer we've shot with 115 grain bullets.

Michael Courtney

mikec
November 4, 2005, 02:18 AM
I believe Stephen A. Camp has taken deer with his 9MM HI-Powers down in Texas. I respect his views and I am sure he would not do it unless he felt the gun was capable of taking deer at reasonably close range.

Stephen can speak to the subject better than I.

Stay Safe

The question to ask is are they the same species of deer? What do they hunt in Texas, most of the Northeast is white tail.

therealsteamer
November 4, 2005, 08:48 AM
Having grown up in NE Louisiana and now living in NE Ohio I can safely say it is the same "brand" of deer, EXCEPT for the fact that these yankee deer are monsters when compared to their southern brethren. My father-in-law still gets ribbed by some of his union buddys about the huge one in East Texas he refused to take a shot on 'cause he was "waiting for the mom or dad". All I can figure is it has to do with ALL the fields and farmland up here, they eat a hell of a lot better.

NCP24
November 4, 2005, 09:31 AM
NCP24, I don't know where you or your father-in-law lives, but here in Idaho, killing deer with a 22lr is called "poaching," not "deer hunting." Perfectly legal here in NC and no I have never tried this. He use to make fun of us kids for pulling out the ďbig gunsĒ (270, 06ís, 300ís) to go deer hunting when he filled his bag limit every year with a cheap single shot 22lr and $.50 box of shells. His sons would just shake their heads and remind him that 25 yards is a lot closer than 300, he would just laugh and say he never heard them complain about dinner. The way I see it if a man can legally and consistently kill deer with a weapon then why change a good thing.

Sharps Shooter
November 4, 2005, 11:17 AM
I learn something everyday - I didn't know shooting deer with a rimfire was legal anywhere in the U.S. And though I've heard of it before, especially with a spotlight at night, I'll never believe it's ethical.

birddog
November 4, 2005, 11:43 AM
Mohican +1

With proper shot placement into the vitals just *behind* the shoulder, not through it, you've got a dead critter. Us bowhunters have been doing it for years.

Ideal round? Nope.

NCP24
November 4, 2005, 12:10 PM
I learn something everyday - I didn't know shooting deer with a rimfire was legal anywhere in the U.S. And though I've heard of it before, especially with a spotlight at night, I'll never believe it's ethical. The thread is about hunting deer with a 9mm carbine not a rimfire 22lr’, my point is if a 22lr in the hands of a skilled person can consistently harvest deer then surely a 9mm can do the same.

Regarding you’re bias remark concerning “spotlight at night” well that’s just stereotypical. I suppose we should outlaw bows, crossbows and all weapons that don’t meet a certain noise criteria because people will break the law? Poppycock! As for ethics, do we really want our government to Legislate ethics?

What is more ethical a man who can consistently harvest deer with what ever caliber or one who takes poor aim, over extends his capabilities and relies on blood trails to harvest?

antarti
November 4, 2005, 02:05 PM
NCP24,

I have no problem with somebody choosing to use a 9mm or .22LR or even 22CB cap.It's their choice and doesn't offend me in the least, but it's my opinion that it's just not a good one for the intended game, and hunting in general.

There is a consideration that keeps me leery of using an AK or carbine in the woods like I do though, and that is the frequency with which I run up on a non-targeteted animal, say, a decent black bear or large alligator.

I'd hate to see what the aftermath of a fight between a stalking black and "hunter + Ruger 10/22" looks like. Same goes for some of the extremely large gators we have in the swampy areas here.

There are good reasons beyond deer anatomy to "carry enough gun".

444
November 4, 2005, 02:23 PM
I have shot a mule deer buck twice with a 9mm handgun. I was using a Ruger P89 and handloaded 147 grain Remington Golden Sabre bulllets.
I am not going to go into the whole story: I have told it several times before on this board.
The shots were at a deer running away at an angle like about 2 o'clock if I was facing 12 o'clock. A raking shot. Probably the worst possible angle. Neither shot penetrated anywhere near the vitals.

I know there are places and circumstances where I would use a 9mm carbine for deer shooting. For example, I grew up in eastern Ohio. It isn't all that unusual to have deer within 10 yards of you. It isn't unusual to be in a tree stand and have deer walking right underneath you. If you carefully shot one of these deer in a specific spot on the head, I am sure the 9mm cartridge would drop the deer in it's tracks. Any shot beyond that and I would consider the 9mm to be woefully underpowered. I would consider the 9mm Luger to be no better than a .22 LR against deer. If you could make a humane killing shot with a 9mm, you could have done the same thing with a .22 LR.

My experience with 9mm carbine velocity was posted here on this board a couple years ago. I chronoed various 9mm handguns and carbines using various handloads and a few factory loads. I found that you gain very little velocity by using a longer barrel. Yes, you gain some velocity, but not much.

FWIW, I own three 9mm carbines: A Hi-Point, a Ruger PC9, and an AR15 which is registered as an SBR: I have barrels of 16" and 11.5". I also have a submachine gun chambered for the 9mm Luger cartridge. I am pretty familiar with the 9mm Luger cartridge out of a carbine as well as a handgun. It is not suitable for deer hunting using any load. It is OK for deer shooting under very carefully controlled circumstances.

Sharps Shooter
November 4, 2005, 02:33 PM
NCP24,
Absolutely. This thread is about hunting deer with a 9mm Luger carbine. There are similar threads all the time on this message board. Threads such as hunting elk and moose with .30-30s or .243 Winchesters are pretty much the same debates. Iíve seldom, if ever participated in those threads. However, with over 40 years big game hunting experience, and having killed deer with everything from a .30-carbine to a .338 Winchester Magnum, as well as a couple of large bore handguns and muzzle-loaders, I have my beliefs about deer guns and people who shoot deer.
No, I donít want the government legislating ethics. I donít even believe itís possible.
I do believe itís unethical to shoot deer with a .22lr. I also believe itís unethical for person to shoot deer with a gun that is too powerful for that person to shoot accurately. Also, I believe itís unethical for a person to shoot deer at a greater distance than that person can accurately place their shots with any gun (or bow) regardless of how powerful the weapon is. If thatís bias or stereotyping, so be it.
Furthermore, about legislating ethics Ė itís illegal in North Carolina to shoot deer with any handgun less than .24-caliber. Look it up. I did. Itís illegal in Idaho to shoot deer with rimfires. Those laws are no more or less about legislating ethics than laws about the time and length of hunting seasons.

Stephen A. Camp
November 4, 2005, 02:45 PM
Hello. I do not consider the 9mm pistol cartridge as a "good" whitetail load for general deer hunting. That said, I've cleanly killed 6 or 7 Texas whitetails using 9mm handguns and expanding ammunition. I've passed on many more than I shot over 30 years. On broadside shots, I've had fine luck with the 124-gr. XTP over 6.0 grains Unique as well as Winchester's 127-gr. +P+. With the XTP, all broadside shots whether through shoulders, torso and one shoulder, or just the body cavity have made through-andl-through wounds. One deer required two shots, the last being a coup de grace as it was still alive when I got to it. Had the same thing happen with a hot-loaded .44 Special a few years ago.

Texas whitetails where I hunt are not that large. The largest I've killed with a 9mm pistol has been a doe @ 140-lbs. In one state-sanctioned game management plan I was part of, many were considerably smaller. Unless presented a close shot under ideal conditions, I pass with the handgun, any handgun...or rifle. I set my criteria for these and set them well within what I think I might be capable of. I have not noted any difference in reaction between deer shot with 9mm, .45 ACP, .44 Spec (handloaded), .44 magnum, or .45 Colt. If hit right and true, they usually jump, take a few steps and go down. The farthest I've had one run was about 30 yards; .45 Colt using a 255-gr. CSWC @ 950 ft/sec. I hit a bit high in the lungs or it might have fallen sooner. With any handgun, I only shoot when the deer is stationary. If it's not, I don't shoot. Placement is everything with them in my view with about any handgun. (I do cheat and have a rifle at hand for nice deer either too far out or moving, usually a .308 or .30-06.)

I don't believe I'd shoot much larger than a whitetail the size I've described with 9mm. For me, south Texas javelina have been tougher to "stop" than the whitetail. I wouldn't hunt mule deer with one. I think it helps if the animal is not excited and doesn't suspect that you are even in the same county it is, adrenaline and all that.

The high-powered rifle and "powerful" handgun offer us more options than lesser powered handguns with regard to quartering shots vs. broadside.

Best.

NCP24
November 4, 2005, 05:02 PM
I have no problem with somebody choosing to use a 9mm or .22LR or even 22CB cap.It's their choice and doesn't offend me in the least, but it's my opinion that it's just not a good one for the intended game, and hunting in general. Agreed.

Furthermore, about legislating ethics Ė itís illegal in North Carolina to shoot deer with any handgun less than .24-caliber. We arenít talking about handguns, for that matter the NC/local law(s) do prohibit the use of certain calibers/types of firearm on some game. I donít agree with 22ís on deer, but in this case the man used what he wanted and produced more deer than I did using a 30-06. If it works for him or someone else and itís legal who am I to tell them they are wrong.

Sharps Shooter
November 4, 2005, 07:13 PM
No, we aren't talking about handguns. And at that point I was talking about legislating ethics. You asked me about how I felt about legislating ethics, remember? Thanks for quoting only part of what I wrote.
I've never even been in North Carolina, much less seen the size of the deer you have there. Nor do I know anything about the normal shooting distances for deer there and the shooting capabilities of your father-in-law. I said I'll never believe shooting deer with a .22lr is ethical. However, that doesn't mean I would like to see legislation banning it. Lawmakers tend to screw things up. For instance, it's against the law to shoot big game here in Idaho with rimfires. But that law leaves the door open to shooting moose in the ribs with 9mm Luger handguns. It has happened. And I only wish that moose would have stomped that hunter wannabe into dust before the partner came along and put the moose down with a 30-06.
From what I've read about the size of deer in North Carolina, and the normal shooting distances, with the right load in the hands of the right hunter, I suspect a 9mm Luger carbine would be sufficient.

MikeHaas
November 4, 2005, 09:01 PM
As a young teen in Western Pennsylvania, my left-handed older brother, God rest his soul, was afflicted with Polio in the late 50's. The old "Iron Lung" days. He survived but his physical stature was greatly reduced by the disease. Dad looked for a good deer gun that was easy to operate, accurate, powerful enough for PA Whitetail yet not kick too hard. The old man settled on the Winchester Model 88 in .243 Win.
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/guns/win88-100.jpg

Great choice, great rifle great round. And GREAT on deer. My bro had so much fun with that gun, glass-bedding it, working loads, consistent 1 MOA, honest! (The 88 shared many bolt-action features, such as forward triple rotating locking lugs and a one-piece stock.)

Anyway, I would consider the 9mm a horrendous choice for animals of this mass, just as the military declares the pistol to be a secondary, close combat weapon. I never had to fight with a deer. The real worry? Someone that stupid is dumb enough to use hardball ammo too.

Show them this ballistic comparison of the 9mm with more appropriate choices like the 44 Mag, 243 Win and other popular deer rounds. I threw in the .460 S&W Magnum to illustrate the most powerful handgun cartridge available.

http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=3|43|144|389|122|95|92|99

346 ft-lbs for an animal that can go over 200 lbs is just not enough margin to insure a clean kill. If the guy wants a challenge, maybe he should just take his shirt off and put a Bowie knife between his teeth.

Mike

NCP24
November 4, 2005, 09:06 PM
I've never even been in North Carolina, much less seen the size of the deer you have there. Nor do I know anything about the normal shooting distances for deer there and the shooting capabilities of your father-in-law. I said I'll never believe shooting deer with a .22lr is ethical. However, that doesn't mean I would like to see legislation banning it.The deer are a lot smaller than northern deer and for normal shooting distances it depends on where you hunt. In my area the average is probably 30 yards, other places it could be several hundred yards.

As for legislating, I think we travel into dangerous waters when we start talking ethics, law and criminal offenses.

I believe from time to time we are all guilty of over analyzing any given topic and I often wonder how much social programing plays a role in our decisions. For example remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold.

As you pointed out people just love to argue over the best caliber for deer and thatís find and well, it gives us something to talk about. However when all is said and done it boils down to one thing, what works.



Back on topic, so the old timer wants to hunt deer with a 9mm carbine lets see if we can help him.

"Comparative velocities of 9mm handgun ammunition in typical handguns versus a sample of 9mm carbines." http://www.aboutguns.net/reviews/9mmtests.html

Really quick disclaimer, right up front: this "test" is not science nor is it done really scientifically. It is an anecdotal collection of data. We just know someone is going to cut and paste from this article, go to another web site and post these "scientific test results" as true gospel. Sorry, in real science, you eliminate as many variables as possible and rigorously collect data by repeating the same methodology over and over again. This little collection of information suffers from small data sets, variances in methodology, and general lack of major corporate funding to do a 10,000 round test. We hope you enjoy and appreciate our work, but your tests with your ammo in your gun may be entirely different. Perhaps one day, we can spring the $ necessary to get 1,000 rounds of each type of ammo, and multiple examples of each test rifle. In the meantime, please enjoy our work as it is - unscientific, but fun and informative. Maybe someone can give a better reference site.

The Bushmaster
November 4, 2005, 09:35 PM
9mm X 19 is NOT a hunting round...It has enough trouble stopping humans let alone a humane kill on a deer. "Shot placement"...Is that on a standing deer or what I am used to in the Great Northwest...A running shot at a deer leaping over a log...At 35 yards...Now that's "shot placement"....:scrutiny:

Sharps Shooter
November 4, 2005, 10:59 PM
"I believe from time to time we are all guilty of over analyzing any given topic and I often wonder how much social programing plays a role in our decisions. For example remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."

Yeah, I think I remember. But school was 40 years ago for me. It seems like it was a matter of being "cool" rather than being "hip" back then. I remember "groovy" too.:)

444
November 4, 2005, 11:06 PM
"remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."


Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.

The Bushmaster
November 4, 2005, 11:51 PM
Aah yes...My '46 Chevy half ton pickup with Corvette 327, three stromberg 97's on progressive linkage, 3/4 street cam, slipper pistons, ported, relieved and blueprinted...My .30-30 Winchester and Sharon. I will never forget Sharon...Wow!!! 55 years ago....And I still have her image in my mind.:what: Miss that ol' '46...:D

BluesBear
November 5, 2005, 12:40 AM
As the great philosopher Eric von Zipper once said, "He is my Idol but I am my Ideal".

mr.trooper
November 5, 2005, 01:49 AM
Its FAR from ideal...But...

Find a 147gr NON FRANGIBLE hollowpoint, and load it to +P+ levels: a CARBINE ONLY load.

Use it at 20 yards or less, and it should do OK.

But seriously...Get soemthing else. A .357 lever action carbine whould be just as good, and not realy weigh any more.

"remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."


Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.

Hes right. Thats still cool.

antarti
November 5, 2005, 12:15 PM
As for legislating, I think we travel into dangerous waters when we start talking ethics, law and criminal offenses.

24K agreement.

I'm not going to get in anybody's way over (or mouth off about) how they choose to hunt. I just hope that when something "doesn't work" for them, they have the sense to accept their (or their equipment's) limitations and do something about it.

The only "unethical" thing for the old-timer (or any hunter) to do would be to send off lots of wounded game without some introspection and problem-correction.

NCP24
November 6, 2005, 09:27 PM
Yeah, I think I remember. But school was 40 years ago for me. It seems like it was a matter of being "cool" rather than being "hip" back then. I remember "groovyĒ No disrespect intended, I use to raise cain about the very same thing. . . . . that is until I met someone who relied more on their skills than their equipment. Itís not an easy thing to admit when an old timer can out hunt you using a 22lr, single shot minus the fancy camo and cover scent.

Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.
Hey who says you canít be perfect!

Aah yes...My '46 Chevy half ton pickup with Corvette 327, three stromberg 97's on progressive linkage, 3/4 street cam, slipper pistons, ported, relieved and blueprinted...My .30-30 Winchester and Sharon. I will never forget Sharon...Wow!!! 55 years ago....And I still have her image in my mind. Miss that ol' '46... LOL

I'm not going to get in anybody's way over (or mouth off about) how they choose to hunt. I just hope that when something "doesn't work" for them, they have the sense to accept their (or their equipment's) limitations and do something about it. Growing up I had a younger friend who just knew he could conquer the word with a 22lr. No doubts about it, he was an excellent hunter given his age. He took all kinds of deer with his trusty rifle . . . . that is until the day he out grew his britches and took a 75-yard headshot.

Needless to say the deer didnít just fall over and seventyfive yards is a long way to walk while listening to the screams and cries of a wounded whitetail, especially when itís violently kicking and beating itself off the ground. Two shots later my friend retired his trusty 22lr and graduated to a 270, for him it was the only ethical thing to do.

As you pointed out

The only "unethical" thing for the old-timer (or any hunter) to do would be to send off lots of wounded game without some introspection and problem-correction.

jmorris
November 7, 2005, 11:21 AM
115grn bullet (WWB) exits my Marlin camp 9‘s barrel at 1435fps 525ft/lb energy. The 9mm FMJ will dent steel that other handgun calibers won’t until you get to .41 mag and up. I have seen many cattle (MUCH larger than deer) killed with one shot from a Winchester pump fed .22 shorts. The two rural butchers new right where to place the barrel on the skull. That being said, If he is staying inside 100yds or so he should go find one of the Ruger .44mag carbines.

I sometimes carry a .25 auto, I think it is a great thing to have when I can’t carry a gun.

Michael Courtney
November 7, 2005, 02:00 PM
I've killed nearly 200 deer with everything from pistols, muzzleloaders, broadheads, centerfire rifles, and even the 22LR. This ethical chatter seems odd to me, since without doubt, the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter. The problem with archery is that the deer can hear the release and move before the projectile impacts, and there is no amount of shooting skill that can completely remove this possibility.

If I was stranded in some "Survivor" scenario and my life or the $1,000,000 prize depended on my ability to harvest deer quickly and reliably, I would be much quicker to choose a 22LR or 9mm carbine as a hunting tool than I would be to choose archery equipment.

Another way to look at it is suppose you were invited to a game that paid you $1,000,000 for every deer you killed cleanly (defined as carvass recovered within 1 hour of the first shot), but penalized you $10,000,000 for every deer you missed or injured but didn't recover in time. You've got a week to do you hunting and you get to keep your accrued winnings minus the penalty for crippling losses. I'd take a 22LR or 9mm carbine over archery and I'd leave the game a very rich man.

Michael Courtney

Harve Curry
November 7, 2005, 02:28 PM
Unless your starving and 9mm is all you got, why mess around and risk a runoff deer, wounded and may not be found. Any living animal deserves better, with the exception of some two legged versions.
Get a traditional caliber deer gun.

rick_reno
November 7, 2005, 02:29 PM
If I were hungry and all I had was a 9mm I use it.

Wedge
November 7, 2005, 03:43 PM
What sort of load is used in an MP5? They are a +p+ submachine gun load right?

sumpnz
November 7, 2005, 11:19 PM
What sort of load is used in an MP5? They are a +p+ submachine gun load right?
I'd like to know what state would let you use a sub-gun for hunting.

JShirley
November 7, 2005, 11:32 PM
The 124 grain +P+ Gold Dot should do the trick if applied correctly.

el44vaquero
November 8, 2005, 01:52 AM
Could be done, but you could also kill a moose with a screwdriver. Just because you can doesn't make it the right thing to do. Get the right tool for the right job.

BluesBear
November 8, 2005, 09:23 AM
No one said anything about hunting with a subgun. The question was about extra powder 9mm ammunition.

Noone said anything about forraging for survival.

This entire bru-ha-ha is about is about someone, delibertly, on purpose, choosing a 9mm carbine for deer hunting.

Human beings can be, and have been, killed by .25acp handguns. But I don't see any Military Force or Police Department issuing them.

Handiness be dammed.
There is a responsibility incurred when hunting for sport.
Handiness should not be at the top of the importance list.

So, I'll change my opinion of the "older gentleman" referred to in the original post from fool to irresponsible fool.

Cosmoline
November 8, 2005, 01:44 PM
The comparison to bowhunting is specious. An arrow kills by cutting, and its extremely high sectional density allows it to penetrate clean through a deer even at very low velocities. A bullet kills by lacerating, and the SD of a 9mm slug is horrible. If the bullet does not have sufficient SD and velocity , it may not penetrate even a deer and may not do enough damage to kill the animal quickly.

Many moose up here have been killed with .22's to the brainpan, but not legally. It's the cruel and quiet technique of poachers.

cookekdjr
November 8, 2005, 01:53 PM
If he's gonna do it no matter what, have him use this load by Buffalo Bore:

(+P+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1175 fps
451 ft. lbs

Out of a carbine, it will be about 200-300 fps faster, so he's looking at shooting a 147gr bullet at about 1400 fps.
-David

antarti
November 8, 2005, 04:47 PM
This ethical chatter seems odd to me, since without doubt, the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter.

I know a lot of archers who are very ethical hunters. Their preparation before the hunt, concerning their chosen equipment and practice, puts many rifle hunters to shame.

They usually have venison and boar in the freezer too.

BluesBear
November 8, 2005, 10:09 PM
I think a better comparison would be to compare a gun hunter using a 9mm instead of a .30-30 to a bow hunter using a target tip instead of a broadhead.
Or a carpenter using a rubber mallet to drive nails.


Don't be a fool ya' Yob,
Use the right tool for the job.

MNgoldenbear
November 9, 2005, 04:17 AM
I've killed nearly 200 deer... the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter. ...I would be much quicker to choose a 22LR or 9mm carbine as a hunting tool than I would be to choose archery equipment. ...I'd take a 22LR or 9mm carbine over archery and I'd leave the game a very rich man.

Okay, I'm guessing you're not much of an archer? I haven't taken even a fraction as many deer as you, but I've had deer hit solidly with a slug across the chest that ran much farther than one hit with a broadhead. I've seen a lot more game animals wounded by firearms as well (simply because there are more firearms hunters). There are good and poor hunters who use every type of equipment, and even those of us who are pretty good shots have off days. Personally, I'd just as soon choose a bow that was set up properly and that I was familiar with over a light caliber like 22LR or 9mm, and I'm a decent shot with those as well.

JShirley
November 9, 2005, 09:53 PM
Let me just point out that there is a world of difference between a .22LR and a 9x19mm, starting with at least twice the weight at a similar or potentially much higher velocity.

I have tested a 9x19mm on a recently killed deer, and I have also terminated with a .40 S&W a deer that refused to stop living after a solid hit with a .35 Remington. I've also killed pests with a 9x19 carbine.

The point is, those who talk about how uncapable the 9mm is are only correct in comparison with a rifle. Sure, a 7.62x39mm cartridge with a decent bullet would be a more effective choice, but the 9mm carbine, with a quality hollowpoint, can certainly work at reasonable ranges, and will probably be a little more effective (due to greater potential for practical accuracy) than a .357 Magnum handgun.

John

5.56
November 9, 2005, 11:52 PM
I agree that it is at the bottom of the scale for a deer round. However, to be fair and honest. I have on many occasions taken deer with a 9MM Glock. Ones with a broken leg running on 3 legs. Car vs deer. I was with the sheriff's office. I was using 115gr Win. silvertips. The shots were from 20 yards to 40 yrds. Usually at night. It was not my weapon of choice to put a deer down with, but it was what we were allowed to carry and use. Shot placement, hit a deer in the boiler room with a 9mm and he is going down. I only need about 3 or 4 inches in the bottom of the chest to clip both lungs.

Now if you ask me what I hunt with when my son and I go to WV..........I use a .308 The last 8 deer have been one shot deer. So I agree, 9mm is lite, but proper shot placement it will certainly work.

5.56

Michael Courtney
November 10, 2005, 11:34 AM
Okay, I'm guessing you're not much of an archer?

I bring home venison over 50% of the time I bring my bow out hunting, and I've limited out consistently for many years. The limit where I hunt is 5 deer per season, and it takes me less than 4-6 hunting outings to kill 2-3 deer with a bow. (I kill the balance of my limit with a gun). With a gun, my success rate is very nearly 100%.

Michael Courtney

Michael Courtney
November 10, 2005, 11:35 AM
I think a better comparison would be to compare a gun hunter using a 9mm instead of a .30-30 to a bow hunter using a target tip instead of a broadhead.


You might be right to compare a FMJ 9mm bullet with a target tip on a bow, but most 9mm bullets would be more comparable to a 3/4" broadhead.

Michael Courtney

snookdock
November 11, 2005, 12:35 PM
The massive Jordan buck was taken with a .25-20

The 9mm can be better than that.
I used to shoot deer at 7 feet with a weak bow. It can be done.

BluesBear
November 12, 2005, 02:32 AM
You might be right to compare a FMJ 9mm bullet with a target tip on a bow, but most 9mm bullets would be more comparable to a 3/4" broadhead.
Dr C., My point was NOT to compare an arrow to a bullet.
What I was attempting was a general comparison of bullets to bullets and arrowheads to arrowheads that could be easily understood by the greatest number of people.

mindpilot
November 12, 2005, 03:01 AM
My disability (heart disease) allows to to hunt the Federal Ntl Grd land up here with a pistol and I use a 10mm and have brought down 2 deer nicely with it. a 9mm is illegal to use in Minnesota

DELUX6969
November 12, 2005, 09:10 AM
I have seen a lot of things take place in this world. Right or wrong, this is one of them. The 9MM HiPoint Carbine rifle shooting FMJ's placed through the Heart/Lungs area does the job. The distances were from 40 yards out to 85 yards give or take, put through and through both sides of the deers with a very clean and humane kills. Within 20 yards of were shot, they were down!!!

Now, for my disclaimer: I use my favorite and most dependable- "NEF" 45-70(I handload "HOT" for this gun--2100+ FPS..with less than 3/8ths of an inch center to center, 3-shot groups@100yds!..."I FEEL THE LOVE"), & a few others such as--- .223,.280,30-06,&.303 Brit. which all have staked claim on deer.

I, like most others in here, somewhere/somehow has known of a "person" or two in there life/family who has taken deer in a "not so conventional" ways..such as spotlighting or flashlighting and using questionable calibers.

My point to the "non conventional" people.....WHATEVER YOU DO-DO IT CLEANLY AND HUMAINLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Byron Quick
November 12, 2005, 10:47 AM
If I were going to limit myself to 9mm and a carbine there really wouldn't be a problem as long as I also limited the shots I would take with it. Same as any weapon. If I use a bow, I must limit the shots to the ones that I can make with that bow.

As long as I do so, then I am hunting ethically. Shotgun, pistol, rifle, bow, no difference. The principle is the same. Different weapon, different skill levels, different parameters. But all ethical as long as you limit yourself to shots that you can make and that will kill cleanly with that weapon.

Based on experience, I don't shoot deer that are closer than 50 yards with a .300 WinMag. Why? Two reasons. In my experience they run further than deer shot at longer ranges with a .300 WinMag. Two of the deer that I have shot and lost were shot at about twenty yards with a .300 WinMag.

dfaugh
November 12, 2005, 11:31 AM
I could legally hunt here with a 9mm Carbine...Lighter and handier than a shotgun, and a bit more accurate to boot...

Note, however, that I would be using +P+ hollow point ammo...And, I've just finished setting up my tree stand (alongside the "deer super-highway", that runs through my property), and my maximum shot would be less than 35 yards, and will probably be more like 20 yards...Given those constraints, I would think it's OK...A man's just gotta know his limitations!

Michael Courtney
November 12, 2005, 05:34 PM
I could legally hunt here with a 9mm Carbine...Lighter and handier than a shotgun, and a bit more accurate to boot...

Note, however, that I would be using +P+ hollow point ammo..


Good point. A 9mm carbine is not only lighter and handier than a shotgun shooting slugs, it is more accurate, has much less recoil, and the less expensive ammo is much more conducive to lots of practice time.

To avoid exposing youngsters to the recoil of a 20 gauge, I've developed light .45 caliber muzzle loader loads that shoot .355 and .357 bullets which are comparable to 9mm carbine loads. Terminal ballistics are more than adaquate.

Michael Courtney

Starter52
December 22, 2005, 09:54 AM
Well, guys, hunting season came and went and our older gentleman took his 9mm carbine out into the woods and never saw a deer. Nonetheless, thanks for all the useful comments. S-52.

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