[2dogs]

Think they'll catch on any time soon?



http://www.edinburghnews.com/index.cfm?id=384532003

Another Iraqi shot dead at US checkpoint

BY LYNN DAVIDSON


AN unarmed Iraqi was today killed by United States Marines in a second checkpoint shooting in 24 hours.

Troops riddled his white pick-up truck with bullets after it sped towards their roadblock outside the southern town of Shatra on the main highway near Nasiriyah.

Just hours earlier, US soldiers fired a cannon at a van containing up to 13 Iraqi civilians, killing at least seven.

In the second incident, troops fearing a suicide bomb attack opened fire at the truck as it sped towards the barbed wire barrier they had laid across the road.

The man’s passenger was badly wounded. The truck was not loaded and neither of the men were in uniform or armed, according to Marines at the scene. "I thought it was a suicide bomb," said one of the servicemen who fired on the vehicle.

Troops have been on edge after a suicide car bomb attack on Saturday killed four US soldiers at a checkpoint near Najaf.

At least seven Iraqi women and children died near Hilla in the second checkpoint shooting last night, although US sources say up to ten may have been killed.

The soldiers from the US 3rd Infantry Division, who reportedly could not see inside the Toyota van, first fired warning shots and then fired into the vehicle’s engine, none of which stopped it.

Troops reported how the unidentified four-wheel drive was travelling towards an intersection held by the Army’s 3rd Infantry Division.

From their viewpoint, Captain Ronny Johnson grew alarmed at the potential threat, and was heard radioing to one of his forward platoons to alert them.

He ordered the M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle to fire a warning shot as the vehicle continued to travel towards them, and then instructed his platoon to shoot a machine-gun round into its radiator, telling them to "stop messing around" when he saw no action being taken. Finally he shouted, "Stop him Red 1, stop him". There were then loud reports of around six shots of 25mm cannon fire from one or more of the forward platoons.

After the ceasefire was called the captain is believed to have said to his soldiers, "You just killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough."

Officers said 13 Iraqi civilians were inside the Toyota . Up to ten of them, including children who appeared to be under five, were killed on the spot. Of the survivors, one man was so severely injured medics said he was not expected to live.

"It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and I hope I never see it again," Sergeant Mario Manzano, 26, an army medic said later. He said one of the wounded women sat in the vehicle holding the mangled bodies of two of her children. "She didn't want to get out of the car," he said.

The tragedy happened on the key stretch of Highway 9 at the intersection of a road leading to the town of Hilla, about 14 miles to the east, near the Euphrates River.

British forces spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon acknowledged that incidents like the checkpoint shooting undermined efforts to win the support of the Iraqi people.

But he said junior officers had the "full backing" of their superiors to make snap decisions about a situation "whichever way it goes".

[foghornl]

Well, when there are very large warning signs in both Arabic and English, and guys in desert camo start zipping live rounds in your general direction, the intelligent man would realize it is time to stop. :uhoh:

It is a shame that civilians have been killed/wounded, but unfortunately, that is the nature of the enemy...You don't know if the guys in civvies are REALLY civvies or not.

Suicide bombers are nothing new. If I recall history correctly, the WW2 Japanese Kamikaze (?) pilots were the first major use of this tactic.

[seeker_two]

He really should have stopped...:scrutiny:

[Leatherneck]

Troops riddled his white pick-up truck with bullets after it sped towards their roadblock Mother of God, did they even consider that their actions might make Americans a bit twitchy? What are these people thinking? :banghead:

TC
TFL Survivor

[TallPine]

So is anyone really surprised ...?

It is the Iraqi POS who blew up himself and four US soldiers who is to blame for these tragedies.

What a shame we can't kill him again :fire:

[Bulldozer]

How many Iraqis are actually literate? I am sorry to expose my lack of knowledge, but if they cannot read either the English or Arabic script, how do they even know what the signs mean?

Maybe the use of a recorded message playing over a loudspeaker is an option to investigate?

Just wondering out loud....

[Blackhawk]

I don't know, Bulldozer, but I think Iraq has a fairly high literacy rate.

Besides, to drive a vehicle, you need some degree of literacy.

Gunfire is pretty much a universal language.

[agricola]

i welcome the new policy on roadblocks and welcome the chance to shoot people who continue to approach it. certainly it will save on writing tickets! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[boing]

According to the CIA World Factbook 2002 (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html):

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 58%
male: 70.7%
female: 45% (1995 est.)

My understanding is that the Iraqi population is fairly well educated, all things considered.

Bullets in the engine block kind of transcends most language barriers.

[boing]

I keep thinking Suicide by Infidels. These people are sacrificing themselves, and their children, for the greater good of disgracing the coalition forces and stoking even more anti-US sentiment.

Or they're just too damn stupid to live.

[TheEgg]

Have you even considered the possibility that both of these incidents where staged? That is that in both cases, the drivers where trying to force the troops to shoot them, to provide a case of "evil US troops shoot down unarmed men and women"?

I have no evidence that this is what happened, but it should not be forgotten that when you are dealing with people who are motivated to suicide, there is more than one way to damage your enemy. Instead of a dynamite bomb, they are setting off a public relations bomb.

[jmbg29]

i welcome the new policy on roadblocks and welcome the chance to shoot people who continue to approach it. certainly it will save on writing tickets!This from police that write to their criminal repeat offenders asking them to please stop committing crimes. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[SDC]

So I take it that those big signs at the roadblocks DON'T say "Speed up, we need the rifle practice"?

[agricola]

egg,

thats true, and possible given what we know of saddam. however from a personal standpoint i have seen many instances daily of people causing accidents because they havent been looking where they are going, usually because of various factors - speaking on mobile phones, applying lipstick, messing with the car stereo etc - but of all these there is nothing more distracting than a carful of excitable kids. because the driver was distracted and that policy, seven of those people are dead, one more is likely to die and the rest are injured.

of course, this also ignores the fact that the suicide attack that sparked all this off came about when the bomber stopped, complied with the troops in all ways and opened the boot to show them what was going on.

saddam probably figures he doesnt need to send out suicide attackers when you are doing his work for him in terms of damage to the Coalition cause.

jmbg29,

sorry, i didnt stop to consider that you seemingly think all arab people deserve death for following Islam. I wont try and challenge that viewpoint of yours again.

[pinduck]

The Iraqui have had 12 years since the first war with US forces to take action on their own to rid their country of SH, they have not done so. It was best said first by John Seveir, then Chivington and then WT Sherman " Nits make lice". Its called WAR not peace initiative.

[TheEgg]

saddam probably figures he doesnt need to send out suicide attackers when you are doing his work for him in terms of damage to the Coalition cause.

Except of course for the fact that using suicide bombers is the stated policy of the Iraqi regime (see statements by Tariq Aziz, the Iraqi defense minister, and the VP of Iraq).

i welcome the new policy on roadblocks and welcome the chance to shoot people who continue to approach it. certainly it will save on writing tickets!

You are an intelligent person, even though I disagree with your world/political viewpoint. You don't really want to imply, do you, that our troops are getting up one morning and saying to themselves "well, today I am kind of bored, so I think that I will shoot 7 or 8 women and children today". You know and I know that this kind of sad incident will happen in a war zone, no matter how hard the men on the ground try to keep it from happening.

[SDC]

Ummm, Agricola? Where did you get the idea that "you seemingly think all arab people deserve death for following Islam. " out of jmbg29's post? The only thing I've seen of his in this thread is "This from police that write to their criminal repeat offenders asking them to please stop committing crimes." If someone is too stupid to realize that having a rifle pointed at you means "STOP!", what else can they realistically do? Or maybe you think that they should allow all of Saddam's Fedayeem/paramilitarys through the roadblocks?

[TallPine]

ag: maybe you all should just stick to dealing with the Irish ...?

:neener:

[boing]

- speaking on mobile phones, applying lipstick, messing with the car stereo etc - but of all these there is nothing more distracting than a carful of excitable kids. because the driver was distracted and that policy, seven of those people are dead, one more is likely to die and the rest are injured.

Give us a break, please. When you decide to drive through a checkpoint manned by guys with machine guns and automatic cannons, you damn well better be paying some attention to the guns.

Are you saying the driver was so distracted by "excitable kids" that he failed to notice the rifles being shot in his direction...and the rifles being shot into the engine of the vehicle he was driving???

Yup...another clear case of Cowboy Policy and itchy trigger fingers...

[longeyes]

One thing is certain: there will be fewer bad drivers in Iraq when this war is over.

[benewton]

Pay attention to the important point: any of our guys dead from the suicide bombers?

If not, then the policy, at least initially, is working, and that's the part we should care about.

Just think of it as an extreme method of driver education....

[cool45auto]

Longeyes and SDC::D

Like I said in another post: Stop means stop.

[dance varmint]

I just listened to a bit of the BBC Newshour on my local public radio station. An academic woman from King's College was interviewed about the relative British and American interaction with Iraqi civilians. She described us as "trigger happy" twice and said we should adopt the friendly nonconfrontational British approach learned in policing Northern Ireland and former colonies. An audio clip was played of British soliders saying to an Iraqi driver "Do you mind if we search the vehicle? Is that OK?" The BBC lauded their men for showing trust by taking off their helmets and donning berets when approaching Iraqis. She also echoed the New York Times criticism of the Pentagon planning of the war.

Oh Lord.

[Standing Wolf]

On the proverbial "bright side," I'd guess the driver has learned his lesson, and won't try that stupid trick again.

[jmbg29]

sorry, i didnt stop to consider that you seemingly think all arab people deserve death for following Islam.Care to substantiate that?

[Selfdfenz]

Parking the shot-to-heck autos right next to the warning signs might be just the thing.

If not.....then park that one there too.

S-

[agricola]

jmbg29,

from TFL: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=133449&highlight=islam

In the most cowardly fashion possible. Seemingly, no matter how evil, nor how unthinkable the act, lots of Americans will still not see the threat that radical Muslims pose. Nor will they be willing to do anything about it, at least not for very long. When the initial fear that their *** might be in a sling passes, they will return to their smug, cynical denial of the threat that the radical elements of Islam in particular, and the Arab world in general pose. (emphasis mine)

also from TFL: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107009&highlight=islam

a post by Clem which stated:

As I understand it, the Palistinians / Muslims want the Jews and ALL OTHER NON-BELIEVERS to either convert to their religion, or die. If we don't convert or die, then it is their religious responsiability to KILL US . So, we and the Jews having the same right as any other human to live free and protect ourselves, will just have to wipe them off the face of the earth. They attached us and they will attack us again and again and again.......
It appears that what ever is said or done, they ain't going to go with the flow. All they want is death and destruction in the name of Islam.
Israel is doing to the Palistinians what America will have to do to the rest of the Arab world, exterminate all who attack us. No mercy, no quarter, no nothing, just give them a degree of terror that they never dreamed about.

The kind of terror that the Japanese and Germans suffered during WWII and just how pissed off Americans can get. We killed millions of them and as we were prepaired to wipe their peoples/culture off of the face of the earth, they finally understood just before it was too late that America is a "pratice executioner". We have killed millions in the past on a grand scale.

Now is the time, lets get it over with. The fighting will not end until one side is dead.

I think it is time to remind the world, including our "friends" just who and what America is and that we are not to be messed with.

Now, or it continues for the next 2,000 years.

If I've upset anyone, too bad.

to which you replied:

Put me down in clem's column where I have been all along. Enough!

fwiw i did note in many of your posts that you make an attempt to separate "militant" and "nonmilitant" Islam, which is of course rational. However you did stand with Clem when he made that statement, ergo my statement.

[jmbg29]

And your point is what agricola? Clem said that Israel is doing to the Palistinians what America will have to do to the rest of the Arab world, exterminate all who attack us. No mercy, no quarter, no nothing, just give them a degree of terror that they never dreamed about.emphasis mine The Muslims that are currently attacking Americans are overwhelmingly Arab, with only a smattering of Egyptians, and for that matter, homegrown simpletons like Asan Akbar, John Muhammed and Jihad Johnny bin Walker Lindh. And once in a great while the Filipino contingent chimes in.

The point of course is that if one chooses to endanger the life of an American, one's chances of being not long for this world go up exponentially. Don't like it? Too bad. More importantly, what do you propose to do about it? Hmmm?

So, on the eve of Peter Arnett saying that the death of innocent women and children being the key that will assure the end of the war, and victory for Iraq; a vehicle filled with women and children just happens to try to run a roadblock after four of our soldiers were killed by a murder-bomber at another roadblock. The driver makes believe that she doesn't understand that people who put up a roadblock with signs, who are shouting, and who are shooting at them, is the universal signal to stop or die. Wow! There is a surprise, eh?

And all of this in a war zone. Which you then liken to a traffic stop on a roadside in a civilized portion of the world.

And you, the eternal apologist for thugs, the person that always blames the victim of an attack, who always calls for the victim to be left helpless, while simultaneously excusing the criminal aggressor, fulfill my prediction. To wit: "they will return to their smug, cynical denial of the threat that the radical elements of Islam in particular, and the Arab world in general pose."

You prefer to see American soldiers killed in ambush by these animals. Delight in it if you must. Just know that it will happen less and less often, as the reality of just what sort of animals we are up against sinks into the minds of those in harm's way. And the barbarians that you adore will pay the price for it.

You go right ahead and take pride in stripping people of their right to defend themselves. I'll take pride in those that do what they must to protect their own lives. 7th century barbarians be damned.

[Intune]

TheEgg nailed it. According to reports late last night on Fox, Sad Damns Fed'yeen boys took the drivers family hostage, put him in the van, brought over some women & children from another neighborhood, told him that his family was into instant death if he failed and sent him on his way. I didn't realize that this was the exact same checkpoint where the taxi blew up killing our four soldiers. I believe Sad Damn is in hell already which is a good thing. But his buddies know that their days on Earth are numbered, as in single digits. If we don't get them the Iraqis will.

[jmbg29]

Iraqi TV Broadcasts Statements of Women Who Reportedly Attacked Checkpoint

Friday, April 04, 2003



CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar — Iraqi television on Friday broadcast statements by two Iraqi women it said blew themselves up in an attack on U.S. forces, apparently in the blast that killed three American soldiers in western Iraq.

U.S. military officials said Friday that one of the women was pregnant; they said it was impossible to know if she voluntarily took part in the attack.

The attack happened Thursday night about 10 miles southwest of the Haditha Dam when a car exploded at a U.S. checkpoint. The site is northwest of Baghdad and about 80 miles east of the Syrian border.

The Pentagon said the three soldiers killed were members of the 3rd Battalion of the 75th Ranger Regiment, based at Fort Benning, Ga.

"A pregnant female stepped out of the vehicle and began screaming in fear," a U.S. Central Command statement said. "At this point the civilian vehicle exploded, killing three coalition force members who were approaching the vehicle and wounding two others." The statement said the woman and the driver also were killed.

"These are not military actions. These are terrorist actions," said Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Central Command deputy director of operations.

Iraqi television, monitored in Qatar, said the women were those involved in the attack on coalition forces. The tapes had been broadcast earlier by the Arabic satellite station Al-Jazeera.

The two women, each standing in front of the Iraqi flag, right hand on the Quran placed on a table in front of her and left hand brandishing an automatic rifle.

A woman who identified herself as "martyrdom-seeker Nour Qaddour al-Shammari" swore on the holy book of Islam "to defend Iraq ... and take revenge from the enemies of the (Islamic) nation, Americans, imperialists, Zionists" and Arabs who have submitted to the foreigners.

"We say to our leader and holy war comrade, the hero commander Saddam Hussein, that you have sisters that you and history will boast about," said the woman, who wore the red-checked keffiyeh, an Arab headscarf.

In a separate video, another woman, who identified herself as Wadad Jamil Jassem, stood in a similar pose.

"I have devoted myself for jihad (holy war) for the sake of God and against the American, British and Israeli infidels and to defend the soil of our precious and dear country," she said.

The videotapes were similar to those distributed of Palestinian suicide bombers after attacks against Israelis.

Both women were in long, loose-fitting dresses and it was not clear if one might have been pregnant.

In the first suicide attack against American forces, a bomber posing as a taxi driver pulled up close to a roadblock north of Najaf on Saturday, waved to American troops for help, then blew his vehicle up as they approached, killing four.

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein rewarded the officer, honoring him with a posthumous promotion, two new medals and a huge financial windfall for his family.

The Iraqi government has said suicide bombings will be a "routine military policy" and has promised more attacks.

The Pentagon identified the three slain Americans as Capt. Russell B. Rippetoe, 27, of Colorado, Staff Sgt. Nino D. Livaudais, 23, of Utah and Spc. Ryan P. Long, 21, of Seaford, Del. The hometowns for Rippetoe and Livaudais were not available, it said.

Go ahead agricola. Make another traffic citation joke. I dare you.:fire: :fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:

[Intune]

But we should reason with these people. Really. Force and war never solved anything. Sheesh! I sound like the Marine conscientious objector on Hannity & Combes last night. What a, um, kitty. Both of the hosts were disgusted with him.