[Number 6]

I am not sure if anyone else saw this over on Your American Backyard Forum, but someone posted an update on the civilian version of the P90 coming out.

http://www.ambackforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27075

[HighVelocity]

Oh mama :what: I've been waiting for this.

[boofus]

Argh, I need money. :(

[Dave Markowitz]

Finally, the answer to the question, "What's the best gun for goa'uld?"


:D

[starfuryzeta]

Hmmm, two dilemma:
1. How to "cook the books" to afford one.
2. How to sneak it in the safe without the wifey using it as a club.

:D

[Third_Rail]

Well, my wife wants one. Thanks guys. :uhoh:

[idakfan]

Nice gun buuuuuuuuddy. :p

[Rob1035]

5.7mm upper for AR15 using the P90 mags, very very interesting....

[JeepDriver]

well it's nice to see the manfacturers startingto build Semi Autos for the civilian market, but damn those guns are ugly!

I hope Sig does the same and builds a 550 series rifles. There are enough rumors about it atleast

[Justin]

SIG can't do a civilian legal 550 unless they build a factory in the US.

The assault weapon ban is still in effect for any firearms made outside of the US.

[JeepDriver]

SIG can't do a civilian legal 550 unless they build a factory in the US.

The assault weapon ban is still in effect for any firearms made outside of the US.

As far as I know Exeter is a factory.

They are building plenty of pistols there! They have a machining capability, they are making the stainless slides for the 229's/226's. All they need to do is make the parts count and they are good to go!

[Spiggy]

ugh, I get carpal tunnel syndrom just thinking about it...

Wait until they start making Zat-kit-nels, I'll be on one like Jaffas on Chulak

[smince]

I am completely underwhelmed.:rolleyes:

[RRTX]

Oh mama :what: I've been waiting for this.

Now you know we aren't gonna let you run around the range playing Stargate don't you? :neener:

[beerslurpy]

5.7mm guns without 900rpm cyclic rate are worthless in the same way that 10inch AR15s are, just with less muzzle blast.

It is going to be a crappy stopper. Sign me up for an F2000 if they ever make it in a caliber other than 22.

[orangeninja]

Where do you plug the mouse into that thing? Unless it is USB capable...I don't want one.:D

Seriously...that is one ugly gun.

[HighVelocity]

Now you know we aren't gonna let you run around the range playing Stargate don't you? :neener:

Whatever you say Teal'c :evil:

[SpookyPistolero]

I don't mean this as a bash, and I don't think I have ever asked this question much before, but what (aside from a cool factor ) is this piece good for? Seems like a weak .22 cal to me, nothing that another AR variant couldn't already do at least as well. I understand it's compact, I guess that's something. But what is it that it does that makes it remarkable? There's just not enough power to accomplish any realistic tasks.

[smince]

SpookyPistolero:

Now you've done it. You have angered the 5.7 Cult.:eek:

Don't you know this is THE GREATEST caliber ever invented?:rolleyes: :D

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

"Seems like a weak .22 cal to me, nothing that another AR variant couldn't already do at least as well."


At my local gunshop and adult daycare center some Yahoo brought by some samples of an acrylic 'bulletproof' window material he sells. One of the three samples had 3 expanded '9mm hollowpoints' expanded in it, which didn't fully penetrate. Anoter had a '.44 Magnum' round, and another had a '.357 Magnum'. Same story, none penetrated. Now, I've put the calibers in quotations simply because that's what he represented them to be. The huckster told the shop owner 'there isn't a handgun caliber made that will penetrate this stuff'.

Of course, later that day the owner had to prove it to himself. 2 rounds of standard velocity FN 5.7 went through it like a hot probe through that plastic fantastic. A third, subsonic round of 5.7 nearly went completely through it. All fired at 20 feet from a FiveseveN.

My personal opinion is that it's a wholly adequate cartridge for its intended purpose.

By the way, a .454 Casull effectively delaminated the acrylic as it whipped through it. Same for the .480 Ruger, but that's just an aside. I'd rather focus on the 5.7, myself.



Regards,
Rabbit.

[SpookyPistolero]

I get that it's good at penetrating vests and apparently glass, but when will that be very useful, shy of armored terrorists? And when it does penetrate, how much energy could it have left over? And again, what does it do out of a rifle that the .223 can't do as it is, for cheaper?

[jobu07]

Eh, it doesn't have to have super-duper stopping power to impress me. It's a neat gun in a neat cartridge that would make one more fun toy to own. Don't deny it, you know you want one too! :neener:

[GunGoBoom]

"goa'uld" ? :confused:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148547&highlight=piker%2Fwannabe

[CBX]

to bad its not cali legal :(

[beerslurpy]

search for Stargate SG-1 on wikipedia.

The Goa'uld are the main badguys from the first uh 7 seasons. They are parasitic snake things that take over a human body and use various technologies to live nearly forever. They pretend to be dieties and go from one human world to another through the stargates and in spaceships, enslaving people for fun and profit.

The jaffa are a race of enslaved warriors that act as incubators for the younger parasites and as meat-shields for the world-conquering activities of the Goa'uld. They fight with spears. No, no, space spears- they shoot a laser beam. It's like a laser gun, only more um urban.

Teal'c is a jaffa character from the series that betrays his master and joins the humans to fight on their side. He is a bald black guy with a gold emblem of rank embedded in his forehead. He is very serious, and this is used for comic relief, similar to Commander Data and Spock in earlier science fiction series.

The P90 became a regular weapon of SG-1 in episode "[4x08] The First Ones."

Before that they used a mix of MP5s, USAS12s (yes really, with drums) and M4s. They incorporated SPAS12s later on, in addition to M2s, M60s, SAWs and the occaisional 50 caliber rifle (much later).

I like Stargate because prior to season 9 it was actually very well written and one of the few series that displayed correct knowledge of things like physics, biology and weapons.

[beerslurpy]

This is an excellent time to repeat my disdain for the P90, when there is a nearly identical and far more powerful weapon sitting next to it on the table in the form of the F2000.

If they ever make the full auto P90 available, I will get one, but until then it is just an overpriced plinking gun. Actually, if they made a P90 in 22LR, that would be awesome.

[jefnvk]

It is going to be a crappy stopper. Sign me up for an F2000 if they ever make it in a caliber other than 22.

Fortunately for me, I live in the real world. I don't really spend all that much time worrying about how well my guns are going to drop a person, just how much fun I can have at the range with them.

And this gun looks like a lot of fun, just not $1500 worth of fun.

[Mad Chemist]

I don't mean this as a bash, and I don't think I have ever asked this question much before, but what (aside from a cool factor ) is this piece good for? Seems like a weak .22 cal to me, nothing that another AR variant couldn't already do at least as well. I understand it's compact, I guess that's something. But what is it that it does that makes it remarkable? There's just not enough power to accomplish any realistic tasks.

Clearing tight corners, carrying in confined spaces and vehicles, the abilty to operate it one-handed if necessary, while preserving the long site radius and "shouldering" ability of a long arm, come to mind.:neener: But, on the other hand, since it's semi-auto only:banghead: it won't be nearly as effective as the P90 for it's original intended purpose. Which was shredding well equiped bad guys at close range.:evil:

The P90 is a great SMG, but I'd have to have a LOT of spare cash to justify buying one of the civilian models. I'll just have to settle for my pistols, for now.

[smince]

to bad its not cali legal :(

What is?

Since I got my C&R License and started receiving dealer flyers it seems almost everything is marked "No CA Sales" or "Not for Sale in CA".

How do you guys take it?

[starfuryzeta]

Anyone know if the "integrated" system accessories (laser and scope) will be available as well, or will they just come with a standard rail system?

[ctdonath]

The point of the P90 is to have a very compact weapon which is out of the way most of the time (while operator handles other things), is easily manipulated in confined spaces, and punches a LOT of holes in a body-armor-clad opponent at fairly short range in a very short time. That's it. It's a specialized weapon, not for general combat use, not for long-range use, etc.

Allowing what it's designed for, it's extremely neat and innovative.
Short barrel and full auto are key elements.
Single shots out of a long barrel are relatively ineffective, so the semi-auto 16"-barrel PS90 is pretty useless, while the lots-of-holes compact P90 is very useful (for it's intended application).

Nontheless, I'm drooling over the PS90. (Money goes for a M4 SBR first, though.) My NAA Mini .22 revolver is pretty useless too ... but it's still mine. :D

[smince]

It's a specialized weapon, not for general combat use, not for long-range use, etc.

Allowing what it's designed for, it's extremely neat and innovative.

Actually, it was originally designed as a PDW for troops that didn't need a rifle, and would be easier to shoot than a pistol. Think M1 Carbine. Not for taking on "multiple, armor-clad BG's" and manuevering in tight spots.

SPEC-OPS is using in a role it was NEVER designed for.

[Rob1035]

snip.....while preserving the long site radius and "shouldering" ability of a long arm, ......snip



sight radius? on a bullpup type thing like this? does the p90 even have traditional sights?

[KriegHund]

If they still limit mags to 20 rnds and no one will make 50 rnders i will not buy one.

Prolly wouldnt buy one anyways due to $$.



Wellllll.....maybe iwop would...but in that case i should just get an FN 57 pistol...

[Beren]

FWIW, I'm saving my cash for a couple of suppressors and an AUG when they become available in January. :neener:

[ctdonath]

Think "red dot sight".
No iron sights on the P90.

[Rob1035]

That's what I thought.

[cslinger]

Fortunately for me, I live in the real world. I don't really spend all that much time worrying about how well my guns are going to drop a person, just how much fun I can have at the range with them.

Word!! I would surmise that the great majority of us will be well served with just about ANY firearm we own should we come across any likely self defense situations that WE are likely to encounter. For the most part our guns are as much if not more for fun then tactical use. Besides I would also surmise that to most real high speed low drag folks the firearm is just a tool that they could employ in any number of ways to kill an opponent, as for these folks it is 95% software, 5% hardware.

Me, I am a high drag, low speed sort of guy who could probably put a serious hurting on your average, untrained, idiot, who happens to break into my premises and even then I am going to be scared to death and praying I don't actually have to hurt somebody. Under those circumstances just about any firearm I have will do the job and a semi auto P90 would probably be overkill so to speak. Other than that I am not taking on any well trained armed force .

Now for real world combat, I agree the P90 is a 22 magnum on steroids. For all us gun nuts though it is some kind of cool. The ammo is just too damn expensive.

Chris

[Kharn]

Hmmm, two dilemma:
1. How to "cook the books" to afford one.
2. How to sneak it in the safe without the wifey using it as a club.

:D1. Sell plasma, blood, other bodily fluids, etc.
2. Its a PS90, if you SBR it, it'll be a very tiny club so it wont hurt too much.

Kharn

[Spiggy]

Can anyone afford .85c per bullet nowadays? Because I live in CA and I can see that price go up higher than gas prices (Irvine, CA... current prices are $2.71 for regular -and this is the lowest it's been in a long-ass time)

Think "red dot sight".
No iron sights on the P90.
it does, it's hidden under the red dot, which is bolted on... you can easily get rid of it and find a better holo-sight (maybe a nice EOTech)

I've been running around with Stargate guys long enough to know that the ones that have the rail systems are happier than the red dot users

[Hkmp5sd]

I don't care if the P90 does <insert your complaint, whine, and/or bitch here>, *I* want one. :)

[DmL5]

I don't mean this as a bash, and I don't think I have ever asked this question much before, but what (aside from a cool factor ) is this piece good for? Seems like a weak .22 cal to me, nothing that another AR variant couldn't already do at least as well. I understand it's compact, I guess that's something. But what is it that it does that makes it remarkable? There's just not enough power to accomplish any realistic tasks.

22 Magnum out of 24 inch barrel = 320 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 1900 fps)

5.7mm SS197 out of 16 inch barrel = 600 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 2600 fps)

5.7mm SS190 out of 16 inch barrel = 520 ft. lbs (31 grains @ 2750 fps)


-DmL

[DmL5]

Also.. Pistol barrels. Once again the ballistics of the 5.7x28 are far ahead. A .22 Mag will NOT give you these ballistics, let alone a .22LR.

22 Magnum out of 4 inch barrel = 185 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 1450 fps)

5.7mm SS197 out of 5 inch barrel = 355 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 2000 fps)

5.7mm SS190 out of 5 inch barrel = 320 ft. lbs (31 grains @ 2150 fps)


-DmL

[SpookyPistolero]

I realize it's got more oomph than a .22 mag at the muzzle, and don't think (though I could be wrong) that I compared it to one. At extended ranges, it would quickly start to meet those .22 mag muzzle values though. All I had meant, however, was that it seems a 5.56 variant can do the same job but for a lot cheaper. My hesistance comes from reading reports (which I couldnt specify) about the lightweight 5.56 loadings not being very effective at longer ranges (where energies are likely to match those of the 5.7).

Non of my comments are/were meant to knock the setup or dissuade anyones enthusiasm, because no one needs a reason to buy one other than 'they felt like it'.

[Kurush]

Whatever the energy is, it still doesn't penetrate 12" of gel out of a P90.

This is from FN's web site:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30911&stc=1&d=1131388210

That's about 9.5 inches. Still, it'd be very cool for plinking, but $1500 buys a lot of toys.

[DmL5]

As for the performance at extended ranges, pistol/smg encounters will not be happening out that far.

That FN gel photo is a 20% mix and in fact out of the P90 in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin, the 5.7x28 averages 12.25 inches penetration. So basically the 5.7x28 is this .85-inch long projectile (longer than a 5.56 bullet):

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30925&d=1131405110




Very consistently exhibiting this sort of behavior:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30924&d=1131405083

It's surprising to me that it still averages over 12 inches considering this is definitely not a straight-through wound channel. As for 5.56 doing the job better, the P90 is smaller and gives you less muzzle blast, recoil, and more capacity, so it does have some advantages going for it. Also what pistol can fit twenty 5.56 rounds in a mid-size pistol grip and get 2150 fps at muzzle? ;)

And finally, any curious about the 5.7x28 are invited to The Five-seveN Forum (http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/index.php?referrerid=22). I'm a moderator over there.


-DmL

[smince]

DmL5: I wondered how long it would take you to show up. What do you do, just cruise the NET looking for discussions on the P90/FiveseveN?:D

[gbran]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/gbran/Bullpup.jpg

[Kurush]

The gel picture you posted is the same one I posted and it shows 9.5" penetration and a small temporary cavity. I have since found another test which may be the one you were referring to:http://web.archive.org/web/20010623230811/http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190(2).gif

How is it "definitely not a straight-through wound channel"? It only curves slightly and is much more like a handgun wound channel than a rifle. The fact that it yaws doesn't help any because even at full yaw (and it's only very briefly at full yaw) it still has a smaller cross section than an expanded 9mm.

[DmL5]

What do you do, just cruise the NET looking for discussions on the P90/FiveseveN?:D

Yes, why not?

[DmL5]

Kurush,

By "straight-through" I meant that the round doesn't pass through the target without dragging. I wasn't referring to the angle/curve of the wound channel. As for the 5.7x28 being "more like a handgun wound channel than a rifle", it was never meant to be a rifle or take a rifle's place. Your handguns make wound channels "like a handgun wound channel", so I don't see your point.

It isn't "very briefly at full yaw" though, that pic you posted just now shows an enlarged TC (due to yaw) from about the 6 cm mark to the 29 cm mark. That is 23 cm where the round is in yaw with a .85-inch projectile height and about 13.4 inches penetration. Here is another one:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9282/spring2003experienceswiththefn.jpg

And although a low quality pic, it can be seen that the round begins yaw at about the 3 inch mark and continues until about the 8.5 inch mark, coming to rest 10.5 inches into the gelatin.


-DmL

[Rob1035]

so is the consensus that the P90 is or is not effective for defense against blocks of gelatin?

:p

[SpookyPistolero]

Hey Rob, that's not funny. A block of gelatin ate my cat when I was a kid. I shot it with my slingshot but the rock just wouldn't yaw enough to kill it. Thank goodness for the 5.7, now I can retire my trusty rock-flinger to it's place of honor in the safe.

But seriously, it will be interesting to see how the cartridge plays out in actual shootings, if it makes it into the hands of any LEO/military.

[DmL5]

Well the 5.7x28 has made it into the hands of quite a few agencies in the USA alone:


Atlanta, GA PD
Austin, TX PD
Belleview, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Dallas, TX PD
Defense Protective Service
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Federal Protective Service
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Little Rock, AR PD
Missouri State Highway Patrol
Montana State Highway Patrol
North Little Rock, AR PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
San Francisco, CA PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Slidell, LA PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
Washoe County, NV SO
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD


But there have reportedly only been a little over a dozen shootings with it. Of these shoots, no-one has survived a COM hit from a 5.7x28. Many think this isn't a large enough sample to prove that the round is adequate (which I agree with), but I do think that it gives more evidence/probability of it being adequate.


-DmL

[SpookyPistolero]

I agree, it does. Do you have any links to reports of the shootings by chance? That's neat that LEOs have made use of it, do you know if it was with the P90 or the FiveseveN?

Knowing the ranges and what the targets were wearing would be interesting info.

[boofus]

Didn't they use the P90 during the Japanese Embassy hostage crisis in Peru?

[DmL5]

Well if you're looking for more in-depth info (but not too in-depth as the info is still scarce), there is a stickied shootings thread in the ammunition section over on the 5-7 Forum, that's the best I can offer. Would be hard to copy/paste it here since it spans several posts. I know that (at least) most of the ranges in the shootings were very close, as would be expected. Some of the shootings were with the pistol, most with the P90. Three of the terroists in the Peru siege were taken down with P90s, all were wearing soft armor too. Of all the shootings with the 5.7x28, reportedly about 10 of them involved 1-3 rounds and the others involved more than 3 rounds.


-DmL

[beerslurpy]

EVERY shooting that takes place with an LEO/military P90 is shooting that cartridge at the rate of 15 per second. 900 rpm on full auto. The gun and the cartridge are designed with that in mind.

It should not come as a surprise that someone hit in the chest with 10-20 rounds of anything will die very quickly.

Hit that same person 2-3 times with a semiauto-P90 and they will probably not drop. This is why I want a P90 but not a PS90. Until the 86 ban goes away, this gun is an overpriced plinker.

[ctdonath]

Yup, key is MULTIPLE holes. One round alone is a bit anemic (2-3x better than a .22 magnum as noted above), but that it's intended for full-auto with a 50-round mag, each round punching thru body armor, the cumulative effect should be impressive.

Sure, an M4 would do better, but just as the M16 platform was designed for more smaller holes with lighter ammo, the P90 takes the small-and-fast theory farther.

[Number 6]

If they still limit mags to 20 rnds and no one will make 50 rnders i will not buy one.

There is some debate about this, but the consensus over at the fiveseven forums is that they will accept 50 round P90 mags, which you can find currently for sale.

http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548

[DmL5]

EVERY shooting that takes place with an LEO/military P90 is shooting that cartridge at the rate of 15 per second. 900 rpm on full auto. The gun and the cartridge are designed with that in mind.

You are wrong. Firstly, as I said the shootings mostly did not involve more than a 1-3 round burst. Secondly, the civilian PS90 has a longer barrel and there increased velocity. A fragging 40 grain V-MAX at 2600 fps will hurt bad.


-DmL

[artherd]

LOL, the post right above you, referencing actual 5.7mm shootings in the real world;
Of all the shootings with the 5.7x28, reportedly about 10 of them involved 1-3 rounds and the others involved more than 3 rounds.


EVERY shooting that takes place with an LEO/military P90 is shooting that cartridge at the rate of 15 per second. 900 rpm on full auto. The gun and the cartridge are designed with that in mind.

It should not come as a surprise that someone hit in the chest with 10-20 rounds of anything will die very quickly.

Hit that same person 2-3 times with a semiauto-P90 and they will probably not drop.

Look guys, it's not supposed to be a 20" M16 replacement.

It does produce 9mm or better energy-on-target out of a handgun, it does provide less felt recoil allowing for more shots per second on target, and it does defeat soft body armor (which few/no handguns it's size will do.)

It is a wholey competent round, but it is not a .308 softpoint to the head.

I'd love to have a PS90 in every VEHICLE I own! I think it's a great vehicle weapon.

[Kurush]

The list of agencies is really not useful information, all it tells us is that they evaluated the gun not that they are actually using it or used it successfully. As much as I love the obligatory "attacked by jell-o" jokes, the point of shooting gel is to be able to make a controlled comparison between rounds. Just recording incidents is not very helpful because there are countless factors involved.

The fact that there is TC does not show that it's at full yaw, you have to measure the crush cavity or take high speed photos to see that. These pictures are very small but if you look at the second one I posted you can see the crush cavity as a thickening in the middle of the bullet track. It appears that the bullet yaws over the course of about 4 inches then travels base forward. In other words it shows basically a .22 hole with a brief keyholing where it yaws.

When I said full yaw I mean that the bullet is actually orthogonal to its direction of movement. This position is very unstable and it is indeed only very briefly fully yawed.

Are there tests showing a 40 grain VMAX will fragment out of a P90? I'd like to see them if so.

[Medusa]

As of the complains about the penetration issue, the 5.7 round was ment NOT to overpenetrate, meaning the bullet stays is the body and thus minimizing the risk of shooting somebody behind the BG. FN notes that the single bullet with COM hit will at least incapacitate the BG in distances up to 100m (through CRISAT) from FiveseveN, but as is often noted - anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice (or more times). So 3 bullets will surely do the job dispatching the tango.

High speed, low drag.

EDIT: http://www.fnherstal.com/html/5728.htm
Or small arms - 5.7x28mm system

[DmL5]

The list of agencies is really not useful information, all it tells us is that they evaluated the gun not that they are actually using it or used it successfully.

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The list does not include units that have evaluated it, I know of units that have evaluated the weapon that aren't included on the list.



Just recording incidents is not very helpful because there are countless factors involved.

Exactly. Factors that cannot be reliably reproduced by a block of gelatin.



The fact that there is TC does not show that it's at full yaw, you have to measure the crush cavity or take high speed photos to see that.

Bullet yaw is the only way to explain the TC of the 5.7x28 growing 2-3x its original size. And like I said, the TC is enlarged in the second pic from about the 6 cm mark to the 29 cm mark, and in the third one it becomes enlarged at about the 3 inch mark and continues until about the 8.5 inch mark.



Are there tests showing a 40 grain VMAX will fragment out of a P90? I'd like to see them if so.

Well actually the SS197 hasn't been made available yet, it was due in October but that didn't end up happening. Yes it is expected to fragment plenty, the V-Max was designed to fragment at 2500 fps and even does so at 2100 fps (with the .17 M2). There is no reason to believe it won't at 2600 fps, even the 5.7x28 SS195 (which is not even a V-Max) will fragment in some cases at 2150 fps.


-DmL

[Kurush]

Exactly. Factors that cannot be reliably reproduced by a block of gelatin.What I meant was that there are variables in every anecdote that aren't recorded that can confuse a comparison between two rounds. For example, there might be two very similar anecdotal shootings involving two different rounds but also slightly different angles. Is the difference due to the bullet or due to the angle the bullet struck a bone? Who knows. That's what gel is for.

Bullet yaw is the only way to explain the TC of the 5.7x28 growing 2-3x its original size. And like I said, the TC is enlarged in the second pic from about the 6 cm mark to the 29 cm mark, and in the third one it becomes enlarged at about the 3 inch mark and continues until about the 8.5 inch mark.The start of the TC is associated with yaw. The continuation of TC is not. The crush cavity in the second pic is very visible so I don't see why you're trying to infer it from the TC when there is not a 1-1 correspondence.

Well actually the SS197 hasn't been made available yet, it was due in October but that didn't end up happening.I look forward to seeing the results then.

[DmL5]

Is the difference due to the bullet or due to the angle the bullet struck a bone? Who knows. That's what gel is for.

But that's what I'm trying to say -- ballistic gelatin doesn't even take into account the theoretical bone you mention, let alone everything else in the chest cavity. Gelatin is really only "perfectly good" for determining penetration. The rest differs too much to be simply replicated by firing into a block that simulates "generic tissue".



The start of the TC is associated with yaw. The continuation of TC is not.

It certainly is or appears to be. In that picture, note how the TC returns to its original size toward the end of wound travel, due to the round coming out of yaw.


I look forward to seeing the results then.

Same here, and I think it has a lot of potential. If a .17 M2 (17 grain at 2100 fps) gets 8.5 inches penetration and a lot of fragmentation, what about the SS197 (40 grain at 2600 fps)? FN also claims that in testing, the SS197 also gets better tissue damage than the other 5.7x28 rounds. I would love to see gelatin pictures of it.


-DmL

[DmL5]

Think "red dot sight".
No iron sights on the P90.

The P90 does have backup iron sights aside from the standard optical sight. Even the P90 TR variant (the one that has three rails for mounting optics and accessories) has backup iron sights.


-DmL

[QuarterBoreGunner]

*whistle whistle*...

awww.. never mind...
http://www.32loislane.com/online_assets/office_safe_web.jpg
ok I admit; great format weapon... the round needs work though...

[Hkmp5sd]

QB,

That photo makes me drool every time I see it. I *really* want a *real* P90.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

...yeah, I really miss those guns. Aside from getting shot at, that was a great job.

[ctdonath]

There but for the curse of 922(o) go I...