[deadly50bmg]

Does anyone out there have any experience handling night vision rifle scopes? I have been thinking about getting one for my AR and needed some direction. First of all I can't find anywhere exactly how far these things can see.

Gen 1, Gen 2, Gen 3?

I really didn't want to spend the money on a Gen 2 or 3. Will a gen 1 enable you to see up to 200 yards? What about an infared illuminator how far can you see with one of those atatched to your weapon?

Thanks

[444]

I have a little experience with them: not much.

First of all, you definitely get what you pay for. Even the stuff that is considered really good is not nearly as good as you wish it was. The cheap stuff is really bad: almost useless.

Of course some of this depends on what you intend to do with it and where you intend to use it.
Since "starlight" scopes amplify ambient light, the more ambient light you have, the better they will work. If you have very little light, they don't work very well at all. You can however provide your own light in a form not visible to the naked eye. However, like everything else, how well the light works depends on how powerful it is. Something like a flashlight will work at very close range and that is about it.

My experience with this is not with the military: or maybe I should say that very little of my experience is with the military. Most of my experience comes from playing around with Gen. 3 scopes, on AR15 rifles, WAY out in the Nevada desert: the goal being the elusive jackrabbit.
First of all, trying to spot jackrabbits using only the night vision scope is a complete waste of time. Imagine looking through any rifle scope trying to find targets without being able to see any other way. So, we used regular visible spot lights to locate rabbits then shut them off and tryed to find the rabbits using night vision. If the rabbit was sitting in the middle of the road, it was no problem. The rabbit was visible almost like it was sitting in broad daylight. HOWEVER, the second a rabbit was off the road and in brush, it was absolutely impossible to tell what was brush and what was rabbit: in other words, the brush was basically just a blob of dark stuff in the scopes. Again, keep in mind that this was in an area that was completely free of artificial light. The nearest electrical service might have been 50 miles away: 100% of the light amplified by the night vision scopes was moon and star light. To put this in context for humans: if a man was standing in the road, he would be totally visible. If he was standing up or walking through the brush, he would have been totally visible. If he was prone or behind a bush: you would have no idea he was there. Even if he would be obvious during the day, at night with a Gen 3 scope and natural light he is all but invisible. Keep in mind that with moonlight alone, a guy standing in the middle of the road would be visible from a fair distance using the naked eye. A man walking though the brush would be visible with moon and star light without any night vision also.

We also played around with a four cell mag light that was invisible to the naked eye. When looking through the scopes, it was just like using a visible flashlight without night vision. You could see good for a short distance and after maybe 10 yards, things started to get dark fast. In addition, you get shadows, just like you would with any other flashlight. If something is in the shadow, you won't see it with night vision anymore than you would see it without night vision.


Now in a more urban environment, I would have to assume that night vision would work a lot better simply because you have more ambient light for the scope to amplify. More light = better vision. I have never done much with night vision in these types of environments: very little.

To answer your specific question, it depends. How far you can see depends on a lot of factors including how much light is present, and what you are looking at. If a guy was standing in the end zone of a football field and you are standing in the opposite end zone and you have a nice clear night with a nice clear moon and stars, you could probably identify the person by name if you knew him. In the woods, you probably can't see 200 yards in broad daylight.

Now if you want to see something that is all you hope for, check out thermal imaging. I work as a firefighter and we have termal imaging "cameras" on a lot of our trucks. I have been inside a cinder block building which had absolutely no light at all visible. In addition the room was full of dense black smoke, banked down to the floor. You couldn't see anything at all: absolutely nothing. You don't even know if your eyes are open or closed. Turn on the termal imager and you could sit in that room and play cards. You can see all around the room, close to as good as you could in broad daylight.

[Risasi]

Very interesting reply...

[.45Guy]

I'm going to try to billy rig my digital camera to my "worthless" 1st gen scope. I'll throw some pics up shortly. A picture of the rig can be found here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158719

[Gordon]

I have a Sibir Yukon 1+ gen scope($600) that works good on my Weaver railed 1100 Rem for coyotes at night. However the IR laser illuminator built on REALLY lights up things to 150 meters the resolution is OK. The resolution on my ANPVS 2 ($500)on my M-14 CAN be dialed pretty good, I really on have it there for nostalgia, but HAVE sighted it in at 100 yards under a 1/2 moon or so and it works , although heavy. I have an ANPVS-4($1300) that is on a 70's CAR that ocasionally patrols around my ranch at night. It has better resolution than the others but is really not brighter than the 2001 Sibir Yukon 1+ WITH the laser on. It does have about a 1/4 mile range with a moon however!
I wish I could aford a Raptor or other day/night gen 3($3000+) or 4(4500+) , but I don't think so!:(

[Texfire]

Now if you want to see something that is all you hope for, check out thermal imaging. I work as a firefighter and we have termal imaging "cameras" on a lot of our trucks. I have been inside a cinder block building which had absolutely no light at all visible. In addition the room was full of dense black smoke, banked down to the floor. You couldn't see anything at all: absolutely nothing. You don't even know if your eyes are open or closed. Turn on the termal imager and you could sit in that room and play cards. You can see all around the room, close to as good as you could in broad daylight.

I don't know about your department, but our TICs (Thermal Imaging Cameras) cost about $5000-6000. And even though they are handheld they would be a little bulky mounted on a rifle. :)

But you are right about it's superiority to night vision. Nothing cuts through smoke as well. But forget about looking through glass with it. Everything has it's limitations.

[444]

I actually took part (in a very small way) in the evaluation process when our department was buying those thermal imagers. I tried about 10 different units, in fires.
Most of them were about the same bulk as a Gen 1, night vision scope. Their shape is not best suited for a rifle, but then they wern't intended to be mounted on rifles. Most are FAR more durable than a riflescope. Every thermal imager we tried was thrown full force against block walls, dropped down stairs etc. If they didn't hold up, we eliminated that unit from consideration.
The devices we have cost more than 6k.

The point of the statement is basically my opinion that I have never been impressed with any "starlight" scope or optic that I have played with. These thermal imagers actually ARE what I WISH starlight rifle scopes were.

[beerslurpy]

Dude I have been totally sold on thermal imaging since day one. EXCEPT for the price. The price makes me pucker up.

[444]

They ain't giving them away.
That's for sure.
But, cutting edge technology costs money. R&D costs a lot of money.
This is another example of how government spending allows the development of new technology. These devices were paid for with grant money. If some genius had a brillant idea that would enable people to see in the dark, he wouldn't get very far depending on you and I to pay for it (directly), someday, the price of this stuff will come down to a level where people with decent incomes, who desire stuff like this, could own it. After the R&D was paid for by the government. In the mean time, they have proven to be very valuable in my job.
Imagine the stuff coming out of this war. :what: I am pretty sure that the original thermal imaging gear was used in military weapons sights (just a guess on my part). It has now filtered down to other uses that benefit the public.

[deadly50bmg]

Like you said 444 it would be great if "we" could own these types of devices. I usually can look over high prices in the gun department, but Thermal imagers... too high for my blood.

[Gordon]

Don't thermal imagers require a cyrogenic liquid supply?

[Lucky]

Gordon "Don't thermal imagers require a cyrogenic liquid supply?"

Depends how accurate you want them to be. On howstuffworks they describe that the good ones need their temperature regulated, and then they are accurate to less than 1/10 of a degree.

About nv (these days you really have to specify image intensifier or thermal imager) I got a used Russian-made starlight scope (packaged in English), and I love it. You put a 9v battery in, and hold down a button. It makes rapid clicking noise, and that phorphorus screen glows green. Clarity? Clear as anything. I always suspect that people complaining about clarity aren't focusing properly. The IR light is something you can fasten onto it, take 2 AA batteries, and in all honesty it's only good for less 50 feet/20 meters. It's a small flashlight.

Also, you can see laser pointers (red) very very well.

When wandering through the forest, a flashlight is good. The scope is 3.4X magnification, so you could use it for navigation, but it's not as easy to use as a flashlight. Better for looking arond, deciding where to go.

On a rifle, especially and AR15, I don't see how you could go wrong with a Gen1 scope. The only problem might be if it doesn't hold it's zero.


Also, unless there's a temperature difference between white paper and black paper at 1 in the morning (and I don't think there is) you can't shoot targets at night. And that would be the funnest thing to do!

In fact, if I saw someone with an IR scope, I'd kind of suspect that they might be poaching at night or something.

Summary - cheacp Gen1 scope is still a miracle of technology, convenient, clear, fun. I've been considering some way of using scope mounts and solder to fix my gen1 in front of my scope.