Best Combat Sight I Ever Used


PDA






lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 11:38 AM
Awhile back I wrote on some of the froums about a new sight a gunsmith in Sedona Arizona came out with. It is called a Hex Site. I wanted to know if anyone has used them. No one had used them but had some ask me if I try them to write my thought on them. So here are my thoughts on the sight and a little why I decided to try his sight.

First about what made me try them. Heading to my upper 50s my eyes are getting real bad. It was to the point after a few shots I could barely see the front sight let alone focus on it. I strated with just the 3dot sights that my Sig had. When it was hard to see them I went with the night sights. Using the night sights made no improvement. After thinging about it I thought maybe a bigger sight would make the difference. So I went the the Express Big Dot sight. My eyes couldn't even focus on them.

When I got the Big Dot Sights I brought them to the Gunsmith in Sedona to get them put on. I found his name in the phone book Until I brough the gun to him I had never know him. As I talked to him I was telling him how bad my eyes were and that is why I needed a Big Dot Sight. He told me about a sight he came out with. One you look through not at. He said it was a combat sight. I only was half way listening thinking it was just a sales pitch. So I droped the Sig off and picked it up in a day or two with my Big Dot Sights.
After getting the Big Dot Sight I thought now my troubles were over. It seemed to work for me until a shoot about 1/2 a box. Then just like the other sights I couldn't hardly see it let alone focus on it.
One day sitting home thinking maybe my shooting days were drawing to a close I started to think about that gunsmith what he said. A sight I don't have to focus with but just look through.I remember thinking if it could only work. I let a few weeks go by and decided what the hell all the sights i've tried what is one more.
I took my Sig to him and had him put on his Hex Site. All I can say is it works!! With the Sight I would say my accuracy and my speed of getting on target has improved by way over 50%.Anyone who is serious about Combat Shooting (the only shooting that can save your life) No matter your age or how good or bad your eyes our I would strongly recommend you look into the HEX SITE!My shooting went from not being able to hardly see my Sight to having a Sight I don't look at I look through. Now for me a 4inch diameter post at 20 to 30 yards I hit just about every shot. That for me is a big improvement. If it did that for me imagine what it could do for you.
Just a couple more things. One I have no interest in the Sight I make no money and I still pay for any gun work he does the same price you would pay. I wote this because the Sight impressed me so much and I sure other shooters would have an open mind and check it out.
You can read about the Sight and get some info at http://www.goshen-hexsite.com Check them out and let me know what you think of them after you read about them or if you get them if they did for you what they have done for me I you want to let me know what you think you can private E-Mail me if you want so your sure I see it

If you enjoyed reading about "Best Combat Sight I Ever Used" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Zak Smith
November 6, 2005, 12:08 PM
So it's basically a rear ghost ring for pistols. This is not a unique idea. Aro-Tek has been selling a ghost rings sight for quite a while. All the people I know including myself that have tried them, got rid of them. I've never seen anyone in USPSA/IPSC use them either.

-z

Preacherman
November 6, 2005, 12:39 PM
Like Zak says, basically a hexagonal ghost-ring. The problem with these sights is that they encourage focus on the target, rather than on the front sight - and the front sight is where you want your focus to be. Hit ratios in gunfights confirm this time and time again... he whose focus stays tightly on his front sight, wins.

lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 02:04 PM
Like Zak says, basically a hexagonal ghost-ring. The problem with these sights is that they encourage focus on the target, rather than on the front sight - and the front sight is where you want your focus to be. Hit ratios in gunfights confirm this time and time again... he whose focus stays tightly on his front sight, wins.

Most of what i've read and people I know who have been in gunfights say they wern't even aware of the front sight. To me it seems more logical that you would be fixed on the threat. He gets into how the hex sight differs from a ghost ring as far as how it draws your eye. I to have years ago had the ghost rings. All I can say it works for me. 20 to 30 yards out hitting a 4 inch diameter stump was a very big improvement. I look at when I read about 25 yards in the ammo tests shooting 2 inch groups they are shooting from a rest With how I do it just look at the stump and shoot

Chris Rhines
November 6, 2005, 03:21 PM
Any time I run across someone offering the latest, greatest shooting gizmo that will improve my life, my antennae go up. Particularly when that someone claims (loudly) that I've been doing everything wrong up until now.

To me it seems more logical that you would be fixed on the threat. Depends. If you're not focused on your sights, those sights may not be aligned with the target. It does not take a whole lot of misalignment to miss a torso at seven yards. How consistent is your shooting index?

- Chris

Zak Smith
November 6, 2005, 04:16 PM
Most people panic in an emergency, too-- doesn't mean it's the right or best thing to do.

Sighted fire is the most reliable way to make hits.

lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 04:26 PM
One thing I did before I bought the sight I was thinking my shooting was about done when I couldn't even focus on the Big Dot. When I was thinking what he said about how the Hex worked different then the Ghost Ring. I've had Ghost sights years ago myself. But I just want to prove that their was a chance it would work. What I did was cut a straw about an inch long. I would look at an object and hold the straw at arms length. Same as you would hold your gun out. To me every time I did that the object appeared in the center of the straw. I'm not saying it will for you but it did for me. Give it a try. When I hold the Hex sight up and make a effort to look at the front sight and most of the time I shoot I don't even see the front sight. Everytime the front sight was in the center of the Hex Sight. Like I say something to thinnk about they worked for me maybe they will for you maybe not.

Gunpacker
November 6, 2005, 04:34 PM
I'm not sure what your problems with your eyes are, but maybe you can improve with your glass Rx. I too have lost the ability to focus on the front sight with my normal prescription. I now shoot with my required computer glasses. They set me up with a focus automatically at the distance for a sharp front sight. Now you lose the ability to sharply focus the target, but that is usually not a problem anyway, since the proper sight picture will have a blurred target. If you haven't tried to use a different prescription, look into it. I am mid 60's and the iron sights are still fun. I think I will lose interest in shooting when I can't see the sights well. However with the proper Rx, I expect to be shooting till I can't see.

lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 04:42 PM
Use the glasses Trouble is at that range of the sight i'd get headache. Never had a pair worked right. Beside i'm always one who goes off and forgets his glasses. One thing that helps me see better with the Hex Sight I keep both eyes open. I read some of the responses i've been getting. Not yours but other ones even on other forums It seems people look at me like i'm selling snake oil. I have no interest in the sights all I write is they worked for me like he said they would. If people aren't interested don't bother. But if you have the trouble I did shooting it just might be something worth looking into

ctdonath
November 6, 2005, 04:46 PM
it seems more logical that you would be fixed on the threat.

Instinctively, yes.

Those with proper training report seeing a HUGE front sight when dealing with a real threat.

If the sights aren't lined up on the target, you won't hit it - no matter how fixated on the threat you are (to wit "you can't miss fast enough").

lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 04:53 PM
To me when I look at hex sight it lines up the front sight on its own. The police overall that I know are trained to focus on just the front sight. When is it at less the 21 feet they miss 83-87% of their shots? With this at least to me the front sight aligns with the rear automatic So if I see the threat through the Hex Sight it will be a hit. Try what I did with the straw. See if what you look at in the straw is dead center in the straw. Maybe it will work for you maybe not I know it did for me give it a try

Lucky
November 6, 2005, 05:47 PM
sounds cool.

I like the 2 tone paint style, makes sense.

sm
November 6, 2005, 05:58 PM
Preacherman's Post -
+1

Now even tho my eyes are not what they used to be...Personally I still feel for Combat / Defensive sights- the fixed sights such as on a Model 10 are going to be real hard to beat on a Revolver.

For a semi, something akin to Gov't model of 1911.

Why? These are tough sights. In a defensive situation where one may be scrambling on the concrete, banging door facings in a vehicle, or stucture, these sights are not going to bust off as easily as some.

The focus in on front sight as Preacher stated. Model 10 does not have a rear one to worry about per se' ( part of the frame) , if the rear on a Gov't 1911 busts off, you still have a front one.

Lose the front sites? Well the training of learning to shoot without sights as I was taught - and having that big end of a bbl on a Model 10 or 1911 ( or similar) still allows one to focus on front , with target a bit blurry , and pull trigger.
One learns to use side of bbl or slide.

My mentors suggested I NOT learn with a crutch in anything - I lose that crutch I have nothing to fall back on.

I am 50 and have had some eye problems. Still I shoot without scripted glasses a LOT. In the real world - I may lose my glasses before the fight ever gets started good. Even my scripted glasses - I do not want them to be a crutch.

Just another perspective.

rbernie
November 6, 2005, 07:19 PM
So it's basically a rear ghost ring for pistols. This is not a unique idea. Aro-Tek has been selling a ghost rings sight for quite a while. All the people I know including myself that have tried them, got rid of them.Why?

Rear aperture sights work well for me on a rifle - why would it be bad on a pistol? I/m not trying to be a smarta$$ - I'm genuinely curious to hear from folks who've tried this sort of thing....

Chris Rhines
November 6, 2005, 07:36 PM
The rear apeture is usually too far away from the eyeball on a pistol.

- Chris

lostone1413
November 6, 2005, 07:37 PM
To bad you don't live in Arizona you could try mine. Most people read about something like this have a closed mind already. Being Hex it draws your sight faster then a Ghost Ring. Best you could do is read the reviews and make some phone calls and see what they tell you. All I can say is even with the Big Dot Sight I couldn't focus on the front sight. With the Hex at anywhere form 15 to 30 yards i'm hitting a 4inch diameter stump. At least for me that is a big improvement. I put the post up in hopes to maybe help some shooters or get some to think about that type of sight. To be honest some of the responses i'v e got on some of the fourms I wish I never even posted it. But they work for ME that is all that counts!!!!!

Chris Rhines
November 6, 2005, 08:09 PM
Lostone, I'm glad that the hex sights work so well for you. I've tried ghost rings (and make no mistake, the hex sights are ghost rings. The hexagonal shape of the aperture makes exactly zero difference) and they do not work well. Standard notch and post sights, for me, are both faster and more precise.

I suspect that with a few hours of competent instruction (and perhaps some corrective lenses) you would be able to shoot a standard notch-and-post sight arrangement just as well as you ever did.

Furthermore, I find the marketing hype on the Hex Sights webpage to be distasteful at best, and disingenuous at worst.

You asked what I thought. There you go.

- Chris

EddieCoyle
November 6, 2005, 08:46 PM
Glad to hear it works for you, and you should use whatever works for you.

You should also not care too much what other people think or what competition shooters use. I don't shoot competition and probably never will, but I enjoy shooting as much as any champion and I'll use what works for me.

Heck, if I found that matches duct-taped to my gun made me shoot better, I'd use them. However, based on the flack that you're getting I wouldn't post it on this board. I might just try a set of the hex sights. I always liked the ring-type rear sight on my M1 Carbine (the first gun I learned to shoot).

GunGoBoom
November 7, 2005, 09:06 AM
I can see a slight advantage to this hex sight over a normal circular ghost ring....the two "elbows" of the hex at 3 and 9 o'clock give a more precise point for centering the front sight elevation-wise. I kinda like it.

lostone1413
November 7, 2005, 10:38 AM
Glad to hear it works for you, and you should use whatever works for you.

You should also not care too much what other people think or what competition shooters use. I don't shoot competition and probably never will, but I enjoy shooting as much as any champion and I'll use what works for me.

Heck, if I found that matches duct-taped to my gun made me shoot better, I'd use them. However, based on the flack that you're getting I wouldn't post it on this board. I might just try a set of the hex sights. I always liked the ring-type rear sight on my M1 Carbine (the first gun I learned to shoot).


I agree with what you say to. Reading most of the responses I to wish I never posted about the sights. Funny were I did post at all the ones who put them down have yet to say anything intelligent as to why they wouldn't work. Guess that comes from a closed mind

TooTaxed
November 7, 2005, 11:05 AM
Took a combat pistol course at Ft. Benning...and had to struggle because I'm so used to sight alignment from target shooting all my life. Current emphasis is on getting your braced pistol combat grip and focusing on the target, not the sights...the gun follows where you look, and if you are rigidly braced in a combat hold, the sights will be naturally close to where you look. Gun grip and trigger squeeze is completely different from my target shooting habits...double-tapping and Mozambique?!!:eek:

The ghost rings sound like just the ticket...would like to try out one.:scrutiny:

rockstar.esq
November 7, 2005, 11:44 AM
I don't know enough about how the whole aperature sight system applies to a handgun to really make an informed opinion. That being said, the oh so cherished 1911 of yore came equipped with what I consider to be among the worst sights I've ever used! Fixed sights on a revolver are generally better! As for whether the Hex works differently than a circle, I'm not so sure. One point observed from the link you posted is that the Hex sight has a concave profile facing the shooter. This would make it different from the handgun aperature sights I've seen which were more akin to a small tube or a round hole in a piece of flat steel. An intial hunch is that the flat surface reflect slightly whereas the concave surface likely wouldn't. Just so that you don't come to the conclusion that THR is populated with critics of innovation, please understand that many shooters encounter folks at the range that have had similar problems that were generally mitigated by better technique, form etc. Often I find myself explaining why it "really matters" which part of your trigger finger contacts the trigger. Shooting a handgun seems to me to be considerably less forgiving than shooting a rifle. The subtlety of form plays havoc with marksmanship even at "combat ranges". I believe that for many THR's, good advise is cheaper than more equipment and they are trying to help. I for one applaud your willingness to change and adapt to the situation which as you pointed out, led to your success. These are key components of proper attitude.

Zundfolge
November 7, 2005, 11:54 AM
Clearly Zak doesn't know what he's talking about ... I mean its not like shoots all that regularly or anything :rolleyes:

Zak Smith
November 7, 2005, 12:14 PM
Chris Rhines has it right about the rear aperture. It might be fine if you are shooting at a slow rate. If you are trying to obtain a sight pictures fast and engage multiple and/or moving targets, locating and looking "through" the rear aperture is a "fine" not "gross" skill. It's like threading a needle at arms' length. The rear ring obscures both the front sight and the target until it's all aligned properly.

I mentioned USPSA/IPSC shooting because it is entirely "obtaining sight pictures fast and engaging multiple and/or moving targets." This is the basis of the shooting skills needed in a serious situation, not some advanced technique relegated to obscure games. If rear ghost ring sights gave an advantage to shooters in "Limited" classes (ie, not Open) in terms of ability to make hits faster, they'd be using them.

Another point... If you have trained with conventional notch-post sights, and then try to just "change over" to a rear ghost rings, you may find yourself shooting high because you are used to seeing the rear sight more or less "under" the front, not "in back of" the front sight. At some Force on Force training, one of our UTM-converted Glock 17's had the rear ghost ring (I believe it was Aro-Tek, but I didn't examine it very closely). In those high stress situations, I found myself trying to get sight pictures that looked like a conventional Bomar/Heinie/Novak/Trijicon sight picture, but that put the ring under the front sight, not the front sight "through" the rear ring.

If a guy is coming at you with a knife, the rear ring is a "choke" point through which it is very hard to see. What you want to see is the front sight on the attacker, which is made more difficult IMO by the rear ring.

-z

lostone1413
November 7, 2005, 01:30 PM
Took a combat pistol course at Ft. Benning...and had to struggle because I'm so used to sight alignment from target shooting all my life. Current emphasis is on getting your braced pistol combat grip and focusing on the target, not the sights...the gun follows where you look, and if you are rigidly braced in a combat hold, the sights will be naturally close to where you look. Gun grip and trigger squeeze is completely different from my target shooting habits...double-tapping and Mozambique?!!:eek:

The ghost rings sound like just the ticket...would like to try out one.:scrutiny:

You just said the exact reason the sights work for me. Most people forget combat shooting and target are two different things.
Think it was Annie Okley when asked the secret of her shooting. She would tell them one secret is never take your eye off the target.
One thing i'm sure you know about the HEX SITE how it is different then the ghost site. The shape of the Hex will draw your sight to the center that will automatically put the front sight in the center of the hex sight without you knowingly looking at the front sight. Shooting that way what you see is what you will hit. But i'm sure as you read the responses I got most have a closed mind.

J.BELLINO
November 8, 2005, 12:44 PM
Lostone.....where abouts in Az. are you located? If close by, I would like to see your Hex sights.

lostone1413
November 8, 2005, 03:02 PM
I'm in Cottonwood. That would be South of Sedona and North of Prescott. If you want to meet up let me know the Gunsmith who puts the sights on is in Sedona. This Friday after shooting I have to run my Sig to him i'm having new springs put in it and a trigger job. If you want you can meet him and if I have the Sig back you can try mine to see if the sights don't do everything I said they will do. If you read the post I got at www.arizonashooting.com one other person who has the HEX SITES wrote and said how his shooting improved 50% since he put the sights on.

ghost squire
November 8, 2005, 03:46 PM
According to that website it is outlawed by ISPC and IDPA, hence you wouldn't see any competitors using it there.

One must wonder why it was outlawed. There are really only two reasons something is outlawed in a sport, it is unsafe or it gives a tangible competitive edge.

Zak Smith
November 8, 2005, 03:49 PM
According to that website it is outlawed by ISPC and IDPA, hence you wouldn't see any competitors using it there.

One must wonder why it was outlawed. There are really only two reasons something is outlawed in a sport, it is unsafe or it gives a tangible competitive edge.

A ghost-ring or "HEX" sight is legal in ISPSA "Limited" and "Limited 10", because they have neither lenses nor are electronic.

I don't see anything in the IPSC rules which would prohibit the HEX or Ghost Ring site in Open, Standard, or Modified division with the possible exception of their 225x150x45mm "box" rule.

A clarification and cite on their claim would be helpful:

HexSite™ is a steel battle sight, congenial to competitive shooting under stress. So why is it
outlawed by IPSC & IDPA? Because the HexSite™ gives an
unfair advantage to the shooter ---to you.

Or perhaps, more to the point, is the HexSite™ a threat to old-school money??;

Geo.Az
June 15, 2008, 12:23 AM
Who the H ll is Chris Rhines and what does he Know ?

Zak Smith
June 15, 2008, 12:47 AM
Thread brought back from the dead for that? I think not.

If you enjoyed reading about "Best Combat Sight I Ever Used" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!