Is Paris Burning -- SHTF yet?

I've been watching this for the last week. Latest story is here (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051106/1/3w86l.html)

1,300 cars torched last night?

I have a suggestions for my French friends and brothers (even though my ancestors left there and came here in 1679).

Try some math.

I would suggest multiplying the number 7.62 times as many repetitions it takes to regain your city and nation.

can somebody give the french Tony Blair's phone number.

AFS

AFAIK, the Islamist radicals are still rioting in the urban areas, where the population is not armed. If they begin to move to the countryside, the rural farming areas, they may be in for some surprises.

If they begin to move to the countryside, the rural farming areas, they may be in for some surprises.

I'm glad you mention that. Does anyone know what sort of gun control laws France has? It seems we hear more about England's than France's. Just curious as to what sorts of things the rioters could potentially be up against.

I'm glad you mention that. Does anyone know what sort of gun control laws France has? It seems we hear more about England's than France's. Just curious as to what sorts of things the rioters could potentially be up against.


google search turned this up:

http://www.gunsworld.com/law/laws_france_us.html

No one should underestimate the danger that this failure poses, not only for France but also for the world. The inhabitants of the cités are exceptionally well armed. When the professional robbers among them raid a bank or an armored car delivering cash, they do so with bazookas and rocket launchers, and dress in paramilitary uniforms. From time to time, the police discover whole arsenals of Kalashnikovs in the cités. There is a vigorous informal trade between France and post-communist Eastern Europe: workshops in underground garages in the cités change the serial numbers of stolen luxury cars prior to export to the East, in exchange for sophisticated weaponry.
An article from 2002 describing the (further) decline and fall of the French nation. http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

Note that I don't have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning heavy weapons. The problem is that these "disaffected youths" are manifestly not law-abiding.
__________________
-twency

Ok, I see that the French laws do allow some firearms. At least the honest folk will be able to defend themselfs. :)

Why are we calling them "youths"? Don't get me wrong, I don't know their ages either, but that is the point. Other than the LSM's portrayal of them as disenfranchised, poor and racially discriminated (none of which is accurate) what are their ages?

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13177&highlight=france

Many government hoops to jump through. Including inspection *4* times a year. Apparently even for GIGN members. :what:

Up until 1995 French citizens were allowed up to 3 fully automatic rifles or SMGs!!! So for a while they had more gun rights than us Americans.

Just saw a story on Fox News. 30 LEO's injured with 2 shot in a suburb of Paris where they tried to "regain" authority. Some story about two policewomen in Normandy (which IIRC is on the east coast of France) had to wait several hours for back up on a call.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting#rage (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting#rage)

As FARK.com says, "Watch out for fast zombies." From the article...

For a second night, a helicopter equipped with spotlights and video cameras to track bands of marauding youths combed Paris suburbs and small teams of police chased rioters speeding from attack to attack in cars and on motorbikes.

"What we notice is that the bands of youths are, little by little, getting more organized," arranging attacks through cell phone text messages and learning how to make gasoline bombs, Hamon said.

Police also found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a derelict building in Evry south of Paris, with more than 100 bottles ready to turned into bombs, another 50 already prepared, as well as fuel stocks and hoods for hiding rioters' faces, senior Justice Ministry official Jean-Marie Huet told The Associated Press. Police arrested six people, all under 18.

The discovery Saturday night, he said, shows that gasoline bombs "are not being improvised by kids in their bathrooms."

Police said copycat attacks are fanning the unrest but had no evidence of separate gangs coordinating. Officials said older youths, many already with police records, appear to be teaching younger teens arson techniques.

If the French security forces don't get a handle on this quickly they will be looking at Bastille Day II.

TrafficMan,
From that link:May 29, 1998 (Reuters) - The National Assembly, driven by fears that U.S.-style gun violence could one day spread to France, voted on Friday to tighten already rigid restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.Great. Efforts to stem US-style gun violence have, a few years later, been replaced by civilian inability to deal with more serious ME-style violence.

To each their own.

you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. hard for me to be sympathetic to the frogs.

When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
When radical muslims burn Paris, make frogs legs.

They reap what they sow.

Jubei

What exactly is "US-style gun violence"?

Is gun violence in other countries different? What exactly is "gun violence" anyway? If you use a gun to legally defend yourself, is it still violent? Is violence always bad?

What exactly is "US-style gun violence"?

Is gun violence in other countries different? What exactly is "gun violence" anyway? If you use a gun to legally defend yourself, is it still violent? Is violence always bad?

US style gun violence involves taking a gat' an cappin fools sidewayz yo. :D

US style gun violence involves taking a gat' an cappin fools sidewayz yo.

Either that, or at the other end of the social spectra....

Keeping a carbine in the baby carriage when you're out for a walk.:rolleyes:

That's pretty much how they see America.

Good! Keeps the rif-raf out.

Actually, I saw on a web based newspaper that the ordinairy citizens are so angry they "want the army called out" and are thinking of forming "local militias". :D

If this keeps up, you'll probably see the Foreign Legion giving these low-lifes "a whiff of grapeshot" (to quote Napoleon's first rule of crowd control :evil: )

The Legion to keep the Army's hands clean would politically probably be the choice.

Though bringing in (essentially) foreign mercenarys to kill (ostensible) citizens looks bad too.

It depends on how rabidly angry the "true" (European) French get about the issue.

If this turns into an overt race issue and the trouble spreads (as it appears to be doing) to the rest of Europe, especially Germany (where anti-foreign sentiment has been building for years) the veneer of European civilization could wear thin and these recent Eastern immigrants (guilty and not) could see the true face of the West that conquered the known world before it chose to get kinder and gentler.

Carebare, not to nitpick, but last stat I heard 60% of the Legion (and likely all the officers over Captain) were French citizens lying to get in saying they were from Belgium or Quebec.

That takes some of the mystique out of it...bummer :eek:

I thought the french dont have guns, but at least 10 cops have been shot in recent days as reported by the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm

Looks like things have really hit the fan over there, country wide rioting, among other things. I think someone should sell marshmellows in Paris...:evil: If they dont get a handle on this quickly I think it will just fester and grow.

With all these cars getting burned, I'm thinking this might be a good time to buy stock in a French auto company. All those barbecued cars will need to be replaced.

Anybody know what the high-volume, low-price car is in France ?

Peugeot or Simca, maybe ?

Most new cars sold in France, as everywhere else, are probably Asian nowadays. When MacArthur was shogun of Japan, the auto industry was rebuilt using SPC (statistical process control) principals which originated in the USA, although unfortunately American automakers gave mostly just lip-service to this quality-enhancing idea. Now GM and Ford are in trouble while Toyota and Honda sell like hotcakes. That's what I heard at at a SPC class given by the autoparts-making corporation that employs me anyway.

I agree that the haughty French who looked down their long snoots at us Americans for so long deserve this current trouble to a certain extent, but beyond that, yes it is to be hoped that another Charles (The Hammer) Martell will soon arise to kick the jihadists out.

http://www.memorableplaces.com/images/eifel.jpg

Don't know about ya'll, bit I'm not going o put up with s*** like that.


http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/28079DSCF0024-1-med.JPG

Anybody with any smarts has gotten the hell out of dodge already. As I have seen in the "Get Fuzzy" comic strip: "You guys are going down like a French border gate," as spoken by Bucky the cat. It is sad that this is happening, but I like the math problem of 7.62 divided by the number it takes to get the job done.

Actually, I saw on a web based newspaper that the ordinairy citizens are so angry they "want the army called out" and are thinking of forming "local militias". :D

If this keeps up, you'll probably see the Foreign Legion giving these low-lifes "a whiff of grapeshot" (to quote Napoleon's first rule of crowd control :evil: )

IIRC By their charter the Legion is not allowed on French soil except in wartime. Could be wrong about that.
Gene
:)

Wow, no wonder the French didn't help us in Iraq. Their troops would be slaughtered by a 5 year old with a slingshot.

You mean these guys? (http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=LFNArcz6kDE)

Ok, I see that the French laws do allow some firearms. At least the honest folk will be able to defend themselfs. :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4410980.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40988000/jpg/_40988190_coste203.jpg
"There could be war, "If they come to burn my car, I'll be waiting with my gun."

It never ceases to amaze ,(and enrage),me when stuff like this gets started. I can't see this even going on the second night around here. I think there would be bodies in the street. I just wonder where thugs like these come from. Also...I don't believe these are kids. My bet is that very few are less than 16 yrs old. Need to line up, march down the street,(in a dead run), and shoot whoever is out there. Do that one time and it'll be real quiet the next night.:D thats worth two cents...maybe. my rant for the week.
Mark.

I hear they are being very tough on the arsonists they've caught. So far they've sentenced 20 of them to prison. Up to a whole year!

They sure know how to hurt a criminal's feelings there.

You mean these guys?

I wasn't aware that French Military issues the SA80 rifle. Thought that was just the Brits.

In fact, don't the French issue the FAMAS?

Location: Within reach of a bag of roasted wasabi peas. Justin, that siggie line cracks me up everytime i read it.

Now, what's the trouble with the French this time?

Nem

The French are famous for their unusual riot control techniques. In 1946 the Vietnamese rioted for food. The Japanese had stripped the country of it's rice harvest. Famine descended on French Indochina. It was one of the worst in history. More than 1.5 million died of starvation in less than a year.
Most of the people came to the port cities seeking aid and food for their dying families. The French sailed their fleet into the ports and began a naval bombardment that lasted for days. There were more than 10,000 dead. No one counted the wounded. The riot was over, but the war just started.
In 1967, I wondered why they seemed so bitter and so determined. I think that the wrong riot control technique can make matters worse.

I think that the wrong riot control technique can make matters worse. I heard that.

+1.

Well, I've heard that:
- How many french it will take to liberate Paris?
- None, as this has been always done by someone else.

Legion Etrangere, I believe, could not indeed operate domestically unless war-time. Maybe CT ops too?

The rioters have momentum now. It appears that the police have not checked them at any point and the "youths" are way inside the cops OODA loop.

The longer this goes on without an effective response two outcomes become more likely. Either it burns itself out (which might be the authorities wish, if they can restrain it to the ghettos, who cares what happens (see LA riots))

or

It continues to gain momentum and "police" activity becomes completely superseded by events. At that point I don't see it ending without at least one good busting of skulls to reassert who's in charge. If that one demonstration of authority fails, then the law of diminishing returns kicks in and you have a recipe for a full on domestic revolution.

Throw in the tendency toward fundamentalism and jihad on the rioter's side and the Europeans thinly hidden racism and once again I thank the Lord for the Atlantic.

Does anyone know what sort of gun control laws France has?

note: I'm French, living in France (Paris)

shot version: the gun control laws in France are very totalitarian since the nazi invasion. very few law-abiding people are armed

nearly anything is strictly prohibited, CCW permits are very rarely delivered to civilians, and things are getting worse and worse (even a single shot .22LR is not avail). there is a pretty huge number of shotguns in rural areas but nearly nothing in cities.

details: any weapon (or part of it) firing a military cartridge (and the cartride itself) is very very hard to obtain for a civilian. any full-auto is strictly prohibited. most semi-auto > .32 are out of reach for civilians. you need a permit to obtain a a riot-gun, a single .22 or a revolver (iff it fires a non-mili ammo, otherwise this is a no-no), it only enables you to have it at home (no carry). shotguns are in a somewhat dedicated category (=> hunting permit). there is a bunch of old weapons (dating back WW2 and before) hidden in many houses but most are not usable (rusty, no recent ammo...)

terros, prolly from islamic obedience, are (illegaly) importing weapons (even AKs) from countries at war (mainly Chechnya) and hiding them, often in suburbs. from time to time the cops size a depot or some idiot use it (for example last week a bunch of guys fired at a cultural center, in a town named Roubaix, with a SMG), but such frightening and conceable informations remain concealed.

France is very centralized since approx 1600 and most citizen thinks that the gov thinks for them

[url]Up until 1995 French citizens were allowed up to 3 fully automatic rifles or SMGs!!!

no civilian can legally have a full auto for the last 60+ years :-)

> In fact, don't the French issue the FAMAS?

yep

> Anybody know what the high-volume, low-price car is in France ?

many brands! note: Simca is out (after being fed by Peugeot, under the 'Talbot' brand) since approx 1980

note: I'm French, living in France (Paris) Bon Jour

Sorry to here about your gun control laws and the situation. It seems the sheeple have been prepared for processing.

I saw a map of your nation yesterday, and I was really surprised that the "riots" had spread all over the country. It seems a bit more organized than a few folks po'd about the gendarme.

Good luck. You may see a bit of anti-french postings here. Don't worry about them. We are just po'd at Chirac for his stance (or lack thereof) regarding Iraq.

I would suggest to your government Mongo's Miscreant Muslim Movement Method of Mass Control. A three step process.

Acquire
Squeeze
Red mist.

The rioters are trying to provoke the French Govt into doing something that will p*** off the non participant more moderate muslims and get them involved in the rioting. Next starts a cycle of one uppism that ends in all out war. Read history gentlemen, the Algerian terrorists did that in 1960-62 in the Algerian war. Allistare Horne's "Algeria: A Savage War Of Peace" says it all. Another one from the soldier's perspective is "St. George's Dragon".

rk

I see in the news that the disturbances has spread to Denmark. I wonder if the USA is next?

I wonder if the USA is next?
Only in the states without CCW.

Only in the states without CCW.+1
I was thinking on the way to work, just how far the rioters would get down my suburban street as they were burning cars.

My guess is about 1/2 block (and the street I live on is a short block).

Roadkill -- I believe you are totally correct. AFAIK the Algerian war was really vile, too.

> Bon Jour

bonjour :-)

> Sorry to here about

thank you!

> the "riots" had spread all over the country. It seems a bit more organized than a few folks po'd about the gendarme.

indeed. a bunch of very determined and organized people are discreetly using youngsters :fire:

in my opinion women (GF, wifes, sisters...) bend most guys social behaviour towards more stability (especially immigrants/poors/...), mainly because they want kids, but it doesn't play here because many rioters are very young and I wonder if the real terrorists are planning on that to sustain the revolt

> Good luck

thank you (we need luck)!

> You may see a bit of anti-french postings here. Don't worry about them

:) it's ok. our countries help each other since the good'ole La Fayette, our current coward gov can not destroy that

ALL will be well soon in France! There was an "expert" on Islam who recently met with President George W. Bush, in Washington. He supposedly "adviced" our President on how to be more "tolerant" with the Muslims.

That same "expert" diverted his homeward-bound travel to go to France for the purpose of giving more "advice" on Islamic "tolerance".

That "expert" is Prince Charles, the future KING of England!

Good luck. You may see a bit of anti-french postings here. Don't worry about them. We are just po'd at Chirac for his stance (or lack thereof) regarding Iraq.

I'll second that. In fact you're a brave guy to post on here at all, as much as you'll likely see. Keep two things in mind

a) Any genuine animosity you see is mostly over recent political disputes.

b) The majority of animosity that you'll encounter is just faux animosity - it's traditional for a lot of Americans to pick on/pretend to hate the French just because of the old (is it a thousand years old now) English/French back and forth quarrel.

I think that the majority of people in America who proclaim to despise the French would get along great with you. I've been guilty of poking a little fun at the French too, but the only genuine (from France) French I've met have been great.

Throw in the tendency toward fundamentalism and jihad on the rioter's side and the Europeans thinly hidden racism and once again I thank the Lord for the Atlantic.You obviously forgot to mention the racism that is exercised by those who started the riots. Europeans (and European Americans) are not the only ones who regularly practice racism. Africans, South Americans, Australians and Asians do likewise. Of course, religion may be the driving factor right now (don't let anyone fool you that this is motivated because of poverty - this was most likely motivated by jihadist who want a religious utopia for the Muslims and use the poverty stricken but, the Europeans are too flippin blind or simply too asinine to admit it) but, once there is Muslim control, then there will be racial and or ethnic cleansing as well as religious cleansing. It all will come under the guise of religious cleansing of those not pure enough to worship. It always follows the same pattern when the fanatical oppressors succeed at taking over power, it does not matter who they are nor what their dogma.

They may well succeed in France. If they had a bit more unity and coordination they would be blowing up the police stations and military bases by now. That may yet come though although I truly hope not. I hope not because this is truly a religious war that the Muslims have initiated around the world. It has been simmering for hundreds of years and is starting to boil over now. Just a matter of time before such riots start here in the US - sure we may handle it differently, that is if it happens in NYC where there is a 40 thousand member plus police department. Instead it will probably happen at a Million Muslim march on DC, where the Politically M[/UB]isguided [U]Stooges will at first welcome them into our capital (probably by marching along side to show support) and then will cry as DC burns to the ground. (Please note my creation of the term Politically Misguided Stooges (PMS) - I wonder if it will catch on!)

Don't think it may not happen here in the US either, as FOX News reports it is also now taking place in Belgium. The Atlantic may seem like a buffer zone to some but; the thing is the enemy is already living on our home soil and many of them consider it instead to be their own home soil. That is one of the reasons that France is doomed to fall, maybe not today but within a decade or two at the most. They will become a Muslim state, unless they change attitudes drastically, because the Muslims believe it is their's already. While the Muslims belive such, the traditional French can only muster themselves to march in silence as their country burns around them. In addition they do one other thing, they depend on their traditionally liberal, leftist, socialist government, the same government thsat let in all of these so called immigrants and allowed their children French citizenship, to save them. One can only hope it will happen (the defeat of the Muslims) if for no other reason than to help defeat the Muslim holy war and, one should hope that despite any negative feelings you may have about the French.

Someone on this site actually posted a thread with a poll in which one of the options for a solution was, in essence, the creation of separate Muslims states within France. Last time I looked, and that was sometime yesterday, there were 14 votes in favor of that option. Some of those who seriously answered in favor of that option are, in my opinion, probably the same who suffer from PMS and the same who would allow America to be brought to her knees by her enemies. Yes it could happen here. The one bright light though is the picture in my mind of the Asian American sgrocery store owner in Los Angeles who was atop the store roof during the riots after the police beating of R. King. It is a nice picture indeed, the shopkeeper standing behing the cover of the wall atop the roof and firing a semi automatic rifle down into the rioting crowds(?). Of course they never showed the crowds, that is the mental picture the news clip left one with though - they left it to your imagination that this guy was actually shooting people or at least scaring them away from his store. Maybe they just paid the guy to fire into his backyard for all I know but; I also know there are plenty of us willing to defend America much as he seemed to be defending his little piece of it.

Best regards,
Glenn B

French riots claim first victim:

PARIS, France (CNN) -- A man who was beaten by an attacker during rioting north of Paris has died, becoming the first fatality since urban unrest started 11 days ago, according to the French Foreign Ministry.

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I am thinking about changing my level of tolerance for "the religion of peace". What connects the bombings in India, the fires in Paris, the hole in New York, and Female Genital Mutilation?

Getting less Socially Liberal by the minute.

I am surprised they have not surrendered yet.

The problem is that they are Unsure Who they need to surrender to.:p

Maybe Osama or Ayman Al Zawahiri should make a trip to France so they can have a leader to surrender to.

Can folks in france buy Marbles and slingshots, or at least learn how to make a slingshot from an old tire inner tube and some wood?????

Having visited Paris several times I can say this deeply saddens me... while we have our political differences the links between America and France (The French Fleet aiding us against Corwallis, Lafayette, The first and second world wars.. I could go on)

It is no accident that one of America's shining symbols of freedom, The Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French... we share many common ideals (though they go about things a lot differently).

This isn't a typical 'work stoppage' by socailist framers or trucker's union... this is organized anarchy ala the WTO riots on a larger sacle and breeding.

The French need our support, not our wrath. We share the same enemies, let's hope this is a wake up call for them.

After Martin Luther King was killed, riots and arson broke out in many large American cities, most notably Detroit and Chicago.

Detroit tried to negotiate with the rioters, the authorities tried not to "escalate" the situation, with the result that fires claimed both many lives and many buildings in that city.

Chicago's mayor Richard J. Daley (the late father of Chicago's current mayor) - seeing what was happening in Detroit - issued two orders to the police force: Shoot to kill arsonists, and Shoot to maim looters. The rioting stopped overnight.

French authorities should take note of this.
I was thinking on the way to work, just how far the rioters would get down my suburban street as they were burning cars. A little sporadic gunfire would crop up the first night . . . surprise would be a major factor. But I'd expect a great deal more gunfire the second night as people would be ready and prepared by then. (There would be a distinct shortage of rioters afterwards.)

French riots claim first victim:

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I am thinking about changing my level of tolerance for "the religion of peace". What connects the bombings in India, the fires in Paris, the hole in New York, and Female Genital Mutilation?

Bombing in India are also carried out by Hindus and Sikhs. Bombings in Sri Lanka are carried out by Hindus . . . Most bombinga in Spain/France are carred out by Catholics (Basques). . .

FGM predates Islam . . .and is practiced throughout Africa (both saharan and Sub-saharan)

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a11

Religion
FGM predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension. Where it is practised by Muslims, religion is frequently cited as a reason. Many of those who oppose mutilation deny that there is any link between the practise and religion, but Islamic leaders are not unanimous on the subject. The Qur'an does not contain any call for FGM, but a few hadith (sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) refer to it. In one case, in answer to a question put to him by 'Um 'Attiyah (a practitioner of FGM), the Prophet is quoted as saying "reduce but do not destroy". Mutilation has persisted among some converts to Christianity. Christian missionaries have tried to discourage the practice, but found it to be too deep rooted. In some cases, in order to keep converts, they have ignored and even condoned the practice.

FGM was practised by the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, a derogatory term, most of whom now live in Israel, but it is not known if the practise has persisted following their emigration to Israel. The remainder of the FGM-practising community follow traditional Animist religions.

Anyway, as a non-Caucasian child of immigrants, I can confidently say that the French/Euro model of a "mosaic society" is showing itself to be a failure. It is only a matter of time until Toronto burns like Paris is now burning . . . .

You might also recall that in WW2, the turncoat french fought on the side of the Germans against our troops, killing hundreds or thousands of Americans. That vichy government is similar to the one in power now IMO. They hate America and Americans, because they feel that America holds a place in the power structure that obviously belongs to france because of their superior culture and intellect. They aren't our friends, siding with terrorist governments enabling them to develop WMDs. They do it for the money, which makes it doubly duplicitous IMO. Burn baby, Burn!

First two quotes are excerpts are from:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051107/D8DNLIF06.html

What is "fine-grain birdshot" anyway? Also wondered what they used to fire it?
...Among the injured police, 10 were hurt by youths firing fine-grain birdshot in a late-night clash in the southern Paris suburb of Grigny, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said.
Liberals always say that France is an example to be followed for equality, getting along, non-discrimination, and so on.
Oh, really? Read this:
...The growing violence is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with high unemployment, racial discrimination and despair...

And guess who has the guns? Surprise, surprise!

Excerpt from http://www.washtimes.com/world/20051107-122439-9658r.htm
Paris police fear rioters' heavy arms; "Most of these kids are being coached by professional petty criminals and gang leaders in the suburbs," said Mr. Carne, president of Action Police CFTC.
"In the past, when we have cracked down on these criminals in their homes, we found drugs, grenades and heavy weapons such as guns. While they haven't started using these arms yet, there's also no reason to think they wouldn't."

from the BBC
Police under attack

The two police officers shot on Sunday night were hit during what police described as an "ambush" in the Paris suburb of Grigny.

They were taken to hospital with wounds to the leg and throat.

Police chiefs said their men were being deliberately confronted by gangs apparently intent on fighting them.

... Paris police fear rioters' heavy arms; "Most of these kids are being coached by professional petty criminals and gang leaders in the suburbs," said Mr. Carne, president of Action Police CFTC.
"In the past, when we have cracked down on these criminals in their homes, we found drugs, grenades and heavy weapons such as guns. While they haven't started using these arms yet, there's also no reason to think they wouldn't." ...

Yes I know that it was an article being quoted but remember the the comments about Sadam, WMD, and having no reason to think he wouldn't use them.

And now there are some trying to discredit the President because we didn't find them.

.

One aspect that seems to be overlooked is the fact that 14 year olds, rioting at 2 am for twelve nights in a row, implies tacit approval from their parents. If their parents didn't approve, they wouldn't let them out.

Here's the rub: when one of these little hooligans gets himself killed the Muslims will suddenly be "outraged" that the police are "killing our children". :banghead:

What is "fine-grain birdshot" anyway? Also wondered what they used to fire it?

I think fine grain birdshot needs to be met with course grain buckshot...

They have been our friends, and can be again.

We rebuilt Germany, the nation that gave us Hilter and 6 million dead jews, and now call them 'friends' we rebuilt Japan, whose atrocities were far flung and horrifying... what would France (only half of which 'surrendered') have to do to earn your forgiveness?

Have you lost that much hope?

The French love their 'politics' as much as anyone... they don't like being told what to do and they are still a nuclear power... I'd agree their time of "Empire' has long passed, but they still have something to offer on the world stage.

They are fighting on the front lines of a war they didn't even know they were in.

Fine birdshot needs to be countered with self propelled artillery. They've let the madness go on for almost 2 weeks now. If they don't use a strong show of force to restore order the muzzies will definitely try again in the future.

Having visited Paris several times I can say this deeply saddens me... while we have our political differences the links between America and France (The French Fleet aiding us against Corwallis, Lafayette, The first and second world wars.. I could go on)

It is no accident that one of America's shining symbols of freedom, The Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French... we share many common ideals (though they go about things a lot differently).

This isn't a typical 'work stoppage' by socailist framers or trucker's union... this is organized anarchy ala the WTO riots on a larger sacle and breeding.

The French need our support, not our wrath. We share the same enemies, let's hope this is a wake up call for them.
This isn't a popular pov nowadays, but + 10 or so. After all, "coming soon to a theater near you"...
Biker

So what do you guys think is a best case scenario for this situation? The French authorities put a rapid stop to the rioting, and are shocked into realizing the War on Terror isnt just an American issue? I'd like to hear what you guys think


Worst case?

So what do you guys think is a best case scenario for this situation?

France and most of Europe will rediscover their conservative roots. Hopefully they won't go too far in the other direction.

I'm sure that Chirac would love nothing more than to promise great welfare bonuses to these folks...but he can't offer what he doesn't have.

Consulting my 8-ball..."outlook does not look good".

Both France and Germany are in a heap of trouble due to many reasons, but the one that is sure to get them is the state of their economy. Both are running massive deficits (anyone in D.C. paying attention?) and do not have the work force to pay for all of their entitlement programs. Immigration was suppossed to solve this problem, but it obviously isn't.

France no longer has the capital to pay its elderly citizens all their benefits. But that is the least of their problems. Just think of the calamity that will ensue when the immigrants no longer get their welfare checks for having multiple children. It will be viewed as "repression".

Unfettered immigration is the immediate and underlying cause of the problem for France and Germany. The US is headed down the same road and Bush is the Flagman. Doesn't matter who did what before him, he has the power to stop it and all he chooses to do is to do is his best to see to it that it occurs.
Biker

> What is "fine-grain birdshot" anyway? Also wondered what they used to
> fire it?

as far as I know the rioters fired:

* metal shots (shotshells, grits, pellets. the French word is "grenaille"), prolly from some specific handguns which are unable, by construction, to spit bullets. they remain a common weapon here because they were sold until a few years ago, for self-defensive purpose, to any adult.

* birdshot, which is here 12 gauge shot (#x, with x>4), from some riotguns or shotguns

> Liberals always say that France is an example to be followed for
> equality, getting along, non-discrimination, and so on

as you already know: this is pure BS (I live in France)

> One aspect that seems to be overlooked is the fact that 14 year olds,
> rioting at 2 am for twelve nights in a row, implies tacit approval from
> their parents. If their parents didn't approve, they wouldn't let them
> out.

no one seems able to control those kids. most parents neglect them

> Worst case?

civil war. not now, but they are rehearsing

> Just think of the calamity that will ensue when the immigrants no longer
> get their welfare checks for having multiple children. It will be viewed
> as "repression".

indeed, and this is a major point. if all this welfare is maintained many law-abiding citizen will grow more and more angry. in any case this is a dead-end.

What I wonder is why the French are relying on the police to confront the rioters.

Don't they have an equivalent of the National Guard that can be mobilized to counter these massive demonstrations?

I've been watching this for the last week. Latest story is here (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051106/1/3w86l.html)

1,300 cars torched last night?

I have a suggestions for my French friends and brothers (even though my ancestors left there and came here in 1679).

Try some math.

I would suggest multiplying the number 7.62 times as many repetitions it takes to regain your city and nation.

In fact this is a problem that many European nations will face.....

I hate France, not fond of the French generally, but...

My enemy's enemy is also my friend.

That might seem too simple to some of you, but it is what it is. I can hate the French anytime, right now they're up against a group I hate more, so they get the nod now.

At first I found the riots poetic justice, since the French press loves to lord it over us whenever we have race problems in the states. But this thing is getting way out of control.

Contrary to the US view of France being a "soft" nation, they have EXTREMELY draconian anti-terrorist laws and a police force that's absolutely ruthless and will shoot to kill. A few decades ago they gunned down hundreds of North African protestors in Paris. The reason they're not blowing away protestors this time is not because they don't want to. It's because they're afraid if they start killing rioters the situation will explode in earnest. And they may be absolutely right. They've got a tiger by the tail this time.

As I mentioned in another thread, I remember talking with several French Jews a few years ago. They mentioned they knew how to find firearms if they needed them. I asked why they were being cached, and the answer was they fully expected the North Africans to start a civil war and expected to be in the crosshairs. It looks like they were right. It's time to break open the hidden caches, I think.

I'm curious as to how good the figures that we are hearing reported are. For example I recently heard something like 1,500 arrests have been made in 11 days of rioting, compared to 10,000 arrests made in just 3 days of rioting in LA/1992. Are French police taking the "softly,softly" approach to dealing with the problem? Are these rioters more reluctant to confront the police than our urban rioters?

Also they say only one death so far. Are North African Muslim/French rioters more reluctant to kill than our inner city rioters? Or are the majority of deaths in our riots cases of rioters being killed?

I hate the french governemmnt. Not the french. My grandfather father is from france, and my grandfather fought in WW2 for the US.

I hate liberals, but not my liberal friend.

Anyyyyways....

We should really learn from france and probably what will be europe soon. Except that in our case it will likely be caucasians vs hispanics.


This could be very interesting. AFAIK there is still a large youth-sided nazi undercurrent in germany. Cause nazism is cool :rolleyes: (That was sarcasm, nothing but bill of rights for me and everyone else thanks)
Could just erupt into something bigger...or it could quite down.

What interesting times in which we live.

The French authorities are scared, and with good reason. If they start operating with too heavy a hand they won't have a riot, they'll have a civil war. The LA riots were sparked by an array of issues from general desire to loot to legitimate problems with the LAPD. What's happening in France is much more fundamental, and goes to the nature of the nation itself--not merely local problems with the police.

I'm curious as to how good the figures that we are hearing reported are. For example I recently heard something like 1,500 arrests have been made in 11 days of rioting, compared to 10,000 arrests made in just 3 days of rioting in LA/1992. Are French police taking the "softly,softly" approach to dealing with the problem? Are these rioters more reluctant to confront the police than our urban rioters?

Also they say only one death so far. Are North African Muslim/French rioters more reluctant to kill than our inner city rioters? Or are the majority of deaths in our riots cases of rioters being killed?

Perhaps they are grossly underreporting it. I would not be surprised if this were truth.

The rioters need to face an angry populace that says "no more"

But let's have less hateful emotions and speeches. Just squeeze the trigger. No need to up your blood pressure with hate. Show compassion by one-shot, one-kill to minimize suffering for _all_ involved.

I'm going to cc my gun-doubtful friend. His resistance weakened in the wake of Katrina. I hope to bring him toward gun-tolerance in the face of these riots.

Home-safety arguments go out the window if we cannot defend our homes. (hey, that sounded deep, please attribute it to me in future uses)


I hope the French population have enough organization to form defense groups in communities much like in New Orleans.

The problem with a subsidized society finding work, is that in order to get a job that pays as well as welfare that has no taxes, requires a job that pays well above the amount that the welfare queens get for doing NOTHING. Then as reward for such a job, the state takes taxes, makes them pay for all they had been getting free, allows them no time for SOCIAL LIFE, and makes them work hard to find care for all the little ones. Then they have to pay for that care too.
No question, all the top level jobs would have to be given to the welfare class to make it worth their while. Much easier to just sit home owning nothing, knowing that EVERYTHING is provided for no effort. Also much more fun. No responsibility, no work, lots of free time to hang out and attend demonstrations for what you want next.
Face it folks, if you provide jobs for all and require those that receive funds to actually work for them, you will have race riots in all the socialized countries, including the USA.
Nope. All you society slaves just keep going to your jobs, send the govt most of your money so that they can give it to the non workers for doing nothing, and ingratiate themselves to the welfare class and get their votes.
You tell me who are the real slaves and dummies.

> Don't they have an equivalent of the National Guard

nope

> Contrary to the US view of France being a "soft" nation, they have
> EXTREMELY draconian anti-terrorist laws and a police force that's
> absolutely ruthless and will shoot to kill. A few decades ago they gunned
> down hundreds of North African protestors in Paris.

this tragic killing took place more than 40 years ago during a war opposing
France to independance-seeking Algeria

details: 8 Feb 1962 at a métro (tube) station named 'Charonne'. a huge
group of North African were protesting against the OAS (Organisation de
l'Arme Secrète, a group fighting to keep Algeria, read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_de_l%27arm%C3%A9e_secr%C3%A8te)
and some cops charged them brutally, killing 8 of them

the French government is now very probably unwilling to such an extent of
law inforcement. moreover the cops avoid fighting because some rioters may
be provocating in order to escalate the whole mess upon any over-reaction

> I'm curious as to how good the figures that we are hearing reported are.

any official information channel is here censored, often by authors. most
useful information comes to a citizen from his pairs therefore one has to
cross-check it

> Are French police taking the "softly,softly" approach to dealing with the
> problem?

yes, at least for the last 20 years and for the time being

> Are these rioters more reluctant to confront the police than our urban
> rioters?

yes, at least for the time being (but read below)

> Also they say only one death so far.

another one (61 years old, French civilian) died today

he was chating Friday with another guy (about their cars) and a guy (maybe
a youngster) wanted to know the subject of their conversation, then gave
them some fist-blows. the other guy is hurt

> Are North African Muslim/French rioters more reluctant to kill than our
> inner city rioters?

they are much younger, acting in very mobile and small mobs, always using
cellphones. but their tactic evolves swiftly, since Saturday, toward
cop-traping

> AFAIK there is still a large youth-sided nazi undercurrent in germany

in Germany they are overwhelmed by anti-nazis :-), but in some Scandinavian
countries there is a real surge of nazism amoing youngsters :-(

Cosmoline> The French authorities are scared...

imho your whole article is right. bullseye!

> I hope the French population have enough organization to form defense
> groups

don't count on it. we are prone to let the government tackle any problem
and weapons remain rare

Nat--I hope you've got one of those caches of arms! Stay safe.

France needs a new Charles Martel. Otherwise these folks are gonna do what Abd-er-Rahman couldn't way back in AD 732.

I think the tipping point is here. The question is, does France, as a nation have the Ironclad Stones to stand up and stop them? I would like to think so, but somehow I doubt it. Over half a century of Socialism has taken the fight out of most of them.

As much as I like to poke fun at them, I mourn for the French today.

in Germany they are overwhelmed by anti-nazis :-), but in some Scandinavian
countries there is a real surge of nazism amoing youngsters :-(

Well thats good, and bad.

Detroit tried to negotiate with the rioters, the authorities tried not to "escalate" the situation, with the result that fires claimed both many lives and many buildings in that city.

If you don't believe him, take a ride through some parts of Detroit someday. There are still roadblocks of burnt tyres and cars left over from 30+ years ago, coupled with the thousands of destroyed buildings that still stand.

Race riots need to be stopped as soon as they start. If that means shoot to kill, well, there is more incentive to not start riots.

I was in Paris this June and thought it a beautiful city. The people were friendly, the food good, and the scenery beautiful. I'm sorry to hear of their troubles. Unfortunately it is true they are reaping what they have sown. When will people and nations learn that socialism does not work. Care for the sick, infirmed, and those down on their luck. If you are healthy and can work you should. If you don't wish to integrate with a society find another. If you are looking to blame somebody for your misfortunes make sure you check the mirror first.

To the French: Good luck taking your country back!

Contrary to the US view of France being a "soft" nation, they have EXTREMELY draconian anti-terrorist laws . . . So? The USA has stringent laws about crossing the border illegally, accepting employment without an SSN, etc. The most stringent laws in the world are pretty much worthless when the policy is to avoid enforcement.

Hmmm....here's a thought. What would Libya, Syria, Iran, SA, or Egypt do to resident white French youths who were burning cars, shooting at cops and killing old Arabs/Persians because the state wasn't providing them with enough opportunity? Maybe the Frnech should just make them feel more at home.

If they start operating with too heavy a hand they won't have a riot, they'll have a civil war.

I fear they have it and don't realize it yet.

Ran across a datum that has some bearing on all this. First, the unemployment rate among ALL French 25 and under is 25%. For those whose background is generally Algeria, it's almost double that. This situation has existed for quite a few years.

Next, factor in that the Algerians have been treated like second-class citizens since Algerian Independence, which is a lengthy period of "being invisible but used".

In other words, lots of long-term resentments over numerous issues.

Last, I'd bet there are numerous agents provocateurs maintaining the riots. Dunno if it's Al Qaida, or not...

Art

US style gun violence involves taking a gat' an cappin fools sidewayz yo. :D

Delayed, you owe me a new keyboard and my nose is burning from the soda I coughed up while laughing. :mad:

Ran across a datum that has some bearing on all this. First, the unemployment rate among ALL French 25 and under is 25%. For those whose background is generally Algeria, it's almost double that. This situation has existed for quite a few years.

Next, factor in that the Algerians have been treated like second-class citizens since Algerian Independence, which is a lengthy period of "being invisible but used".

The answer is more socialism, Islamically-flavored. Tax the Gauls more and give to the Algerians. Everybody happy. What's the problem?

If this turns into an overt race issue and the trouble spreads (as it appears to be doing) to the rest of Europe, especially Germany (where anti-foreign sentiment has been building for years) the veneer of European civilization could wear thin and these recent Eastern immigrants (guilty and not) could see the true face of the West that conquered the known world before it chose to get kinder and gentler.


Um, as far as I can tell, this is and always has been a race and religion issue, most people are just too pansified and PC to admit it.

This IS a religious war, and it very well could be called a race war as well.

I haven't seen a whole lot of black muslims committing terrorist acts.

Nor white ones for that matter.

Terrorism from yellow muslims (indonesia....or are they considered brown too?) isn't far behind, seeing as how they are the worlds most populous muslim country.

Call me a right wing whacko redneck nazi if it makes you feel better though....:rolleyes:

They have been our friends, and can be again.

We rebuilt Germany, the nation that gave us Hilter and 6 million dead jews, and now call them 'friends' we rebuilt Japan, whose atrocities were far flung and horrifying... what would France (only half of which 'surrendered') have to do to earn your forgiveness?

Have you lost that much hope?

The French love their 'politics' as much as anyone... they don't like being told what to do and they are still a nuclear power... I'd agree their time of "Empire' has long passed, but they still have something to offer on the world stage.

They are fighting on the front lines of a war they didn't even know they were in.



True and a good point.

While I will still make jokes at their expense, I'd be all for sending US troops to help them end this, if needed....so long as we TAKE NO PRISONERS.

It is in our long-term best interests to ensure that France and the rest of Europe stays as non-muslim as possible.

I think that if they called on us for help and we declined (though I don't believe we would), it would be a classic case of cutting off our nose to spite our face.


Oh, and people have been saying "they reap what they have sown..." Well, IMO, the French and other European nations have done a HECK of a lot more to combat islamism in their home countries than we have.

The French passed the anti-burqua law, as well as a few other good anti-muslim laws, I think.

England has been seriously cracking down on radical muslims and deporting some.

What similar things have we done here in America???

Nothing that I've heard of, and I'm pretty well informed.

All this crap sure does make me glad I have an M1A on the way to me in short order!!! :D

We should really learn from france and probably what will be europe soon. Except that in our case it will likely be caucasians vs hispanics.

No it won't. The Hispanics who come here come here looking for jobs mostly. The trouble-makers in France are mainly hopeless, unemployed, not really wanting to be employed. Certainly there are some criminals among the Hispanics here (as in every group) but the vast majority of them work hard. They are willing to do jobs that most whites won't do, for money that wouldn't get most whites out of bed. Some of them are skilled workers in their areas. I know I may be one of the few here who thinks this, but I welcome them here. I only wish that their culture put a higher value on education. I'm not saying this from a theoretical perspective. I'm just a few hours north of the border in a town where whites are a minority. I actually do support a guest worker program, so they could be documented, pay taxes, and be a part of the system.

No it won't. The Hispanics who come here come here looking for jobs mostly. The trouble-makers in France are mainly hopeless, unemployed, not really wanting to be employed. Certainly there are some criminals among the Hispanics here (as in every group) but the vast majority of them work hard. They are willing to do jobs that most whites won't do, for money that wouldn't get most whites out of bed. Some of them are skilled workers in their areas. I know I may be one of the few here who thinks this, but I welcome them here. I only wish that their culture put a higher value on education. I'm not saying this from a theoretical perspective. I'm just a few hours north of the border in a town where whites are a minority. I actually do support a guest worker program, so they could be documented, pay taxes, and be a part of the system.
The problem for the Algerians in France is the welfare state. Welfare benefits are high for the unemployed, and taxes high for the employed. Even if they could find a job (which they usually can't - the tax burden smothers the economy), it wouldn't make sense to do so. After taxes, a working immigrant would have less than if he'd remainded unemployed.

The working classes who pay the tax bill resent the Algerians for living off the dole. They are understandably antagonistic towards the Algerians.

In the US, most motivated hispanic immigrants can find employment sufficient to support themselves. Some don't, but that's a personal choice. Americans won't condemn the entire class of Hispanics for the actions of a few individuals. (I hope...)

Cut off the welfare state and see what happens to American-Mexican relations.

Those Mexicans living off of American welfare would throw a fit.

But things would calm down eventually. The low-life freeloaders would stop crossing the border. The motivated, self-starter types would continue to immigrate and make themselves useful.

Immigration would then become a true benefit for America as well the immigrants. Everyone wins, except the freeloaders already here.

Let's do it!:D

I wonder if the USA is next?

The government may be tolerant, but most Americans will not tolerate having their stuff torched. I think most people here realize that, including muslims. If someone tries to set my car on fire, I will turn them into a collandar. Leaky. The US will not be next. Not even close. China might be next. They are largely disarmed and have a lot of angry muslims they have been trying hard to ignore.

Actually the really weird thing about the french riots is that for all their occaisional crazyness, muslims usually have a lot more respect than average for other people's stuff. Stealing and dishonesty is a big no-no with muslims, at least all the ones I ever met.

The muslims in france are behaving a lot like urban welfare recipients in the US do. I wonder if there is any connection here waiting to be formed.

I dont think the french should hesitate to start blasting them. Using flame tanks or artillery would be overkill, but the French have a bizarre passion for either being complete wusses or being completely bloodthirsty. I hope they use their common sense and use an appropriate amount of force to stop the riots without making it seem like they were trying to impress anyone.

Bouncing buckshot off the sidewalk in front of rioters and then into the crowd directly would have taken the fight out of them in a hurry. Better a few injured rioters than the entire country being engulfed in violence.

If you don't believe him, take a ride through some parts of Detroit someday. There are still roadblocks of burnt tyres and cars left over from 30+ years ago, coupled with the thousands of destroyed buildings that still stand.

Where? I took my wife to work for many years right down 12th street, where she worked, and that was over 20 years ago. I saw dilapidated buildings, sure, but none that were burned in 1967. I see slums and ghetto, but no evidence of the riots. It looks like any other big city.

Also you'll notice that the riots didn't spill over into the burbs. We were ready in the worst way, and if anything, we're better equipped now.

The muslims in france are behaving a lot like urban welfare recipients in the US do. I wonder if there is any connection here waiting to be formed. Nope, I think we took care of that in '68 (see Stevie-Ray, above). In STL we didn't have any issues in '68. Seems like our history (see East St. Louis -- 1917, see Fairground Park Riot IIRC 1958) dissuaded the ne'er do wells.

I just love all the peace-and-Kumbaya spread about our illegal Mexican residents. There are enough here in America to have a critical mass of activists that would spark a significant portion to intifada if they had a good reason.

Perhaps the grandkids of our 20 million nation-within-a-nation Mexicans will assimilate, but a LARGE portion of those illegally here care nothing more about America than (a) what $$ they can earn and (b) maintaining their culture in the face of ours and refusing to assimilate.

I'm all for America being the land of opportunity for the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses, but their goal should be to become Americans, not illegal guest workers.

I just love all the peace-and-Kumbaya spread about our illegal Mexican residents. There are enough here in America to have a critical mass of activists that would spark a significant portion to intifada if they had a good reason.

Perhaps the grandkids of our 20 million nation-within-a-nation Mexicans will assimilate, but a LARGE portion of those illegally here care nothing more about America than (a) what $$ they can earn and (b) maintaining their culture in the face of ours and refusing to assimilate.

I'm all for America being the land of opportunity for the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses, but their goal should be to become Americans, not illegal guest workers.

Well said!

Those Mexicans living off of American welfare would throw a fit.

But things would calm down eventually. The low-life freeloaders would stop crossing the border. The motivated, self-starter types would continue to immigrate and make themselves useful.

Immigration would then become a true benefit for America as well the immigrants. Everyone wins, except the freeloaders already here.

Let's do it!

I agree. I think cutting back social services and give-aways would make clear what the real dimension of our own problem is. And that's useful.

Actually, a "Mexifada" would probably do wonders for reinforcing our RKBA and the proper role of militias.

longeyes, you'd have the usual problem with a "Mexifada": "Some". Some illegals from Mexico. Some US citizens of Mexican origin. "Most", however, would have no involvement whatsoever except as victims. And that's the misery of any failed government policy.

Art

Regarding Mexican illegals - I don't think we'll ever see this type of behavior from them -unless either Mexican culture or our culture changes dramatically first.

My biggest beef with "Mexican" culture isn't Mexican culture, it's the culture of the children of many Mexicans who have lived in our barrio's long enough to adopt American urban/ghetto culture. I'm not at all worried about large numbers of Mexican immigrating here to work and (preferably) stay and become Americans. I'm very worried about the lack of control at the border that creates a free-for-all atmosphere for other-than-Mexicans to come across, and I'm very worried about our illegals winding up in a black market economy that pushes them towards further urban ghettoization.

We need an iron fist/velvet glove approach to the problem. Seal the border and deport like crazy on the one hand while dramatically streamlining the process and increasing quotas for Mexicans who want to come here to work, and especially to raise their families and become Americans.

... I know I may be one of the few here who thinks this, but I welcome them here. I only wish that their culture put a higher value on education. I'm not saying this from a theoretical perspective. I'm just a few hours north of the border in a town where whites are a minority. I actually do support a guest worker program, so they could be documented, pay taxes, and be a part of the system.

You're not in as great a minority as you think - even among generally conservative good-ol-boy folks (in Texas anyway). The dairy farmer across the road from has a 3 working man outfit, him, his son and his hired man who goes home to his family in Mexico every winter. He'd be living here with his family if our immigration law was a little more pragmatic. The dairy farmer told me in no uncertain terms that it's nearly impossible to find an American with his skills as a long term worker anymore. If they have his skill set they're either working their own farm or forman at a big corporate farm.

The muslims in france are behaving a lot like urban welfare recipients in the US do. I wonder if there is any connection here waiting to be formed.

I think not. The social welfare system in France is orders of magnitude more extensive than it is in the US. We spend almost nothing on welfare in this country compared with Europe. The urban welfare state in the US is for the most part a myth cooked up by the GOP to use urban/suburban divisions to leverage their guys into office. Only weak minds buy into it.

Anyone think this uprising might have been inspired more by events in New Orleans than by radical Islamic beliefs? :uhoh:

You're not in as great a minority as you think - even among generally conservative good-ol-boy folks (in Texas anyway). The dairy farmer across the road from has a 3 working man outfit, him, his son and his hired man who goes home to his family in Mexico every winter. He'd be living here with his family if our immigration law was a little more pragmatic. The dairy farmer told me in no uncertain terms that it's nearly impossible to find an American with his skills as a long term worker anymore. If they have his skill set they're either working their own farm or forman at a big corporate farm.
This is absolutely true. Immigration alone isn't the problem. It doesn't matter whether the immigrants are Mexican or Algerian. Immigrants who have a future (i.e. those who can support themselves) don't throw riots.

The problem is when you try to combine immigration with the welfare state. That's when you have trouble. The French have learned this lesson the hard way.

Let's not repeat their mistakes here in the US.

It's about more than the welfare state, it's about assimilation. And the viability of the American economy.

It's shocking more people haven't been killed... I heard on the news yesterday most of the rioters up to this point had been detained but not arrested... meaning 'released on their own recognisance?' :confused:

Arrests and curfews are supposed to start tonight... but hey YOU never violated curfew did you?

I'm not suggesting we send troops to thier aid... I am suggesting we offer up some kind of support to our historical allies and learn from their mistakes.

What good is a curfew you don't, can't, won't enforce? This is a problem of values and will. France is being tested.

The answer is more socialism, Islamically-flavored. Tax the Gauls more and give to the Algerians. Everybody happy. What's the problem?

:what:

Uhh, can you say late Roman Empire? Tribute to the barbarians didn't help things then, why would they now?

:what:

Uhh, can you say late Roman Empire? Tribute to the barbarians didn't help things then, why would they now?

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

I'm not suggesting we send troops to thier aid... I am suggesting we offer up some kind of support to our historical allies and learn from their mistakes.But should we wait until next week after they've surrendered? :D

President Jacques Chirac declared a state of emergency Tuesday, paving the way for curfews to be imposed on riot-hit cities and towns in an extraordinary measure to halt France's worst civil unrest in decades after 12 nights of violence. Full report here (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/08/D8DOF4280.html) from the ASSociated press.

After 12 DAYS of rioting with THOUSANDS of vehicles burned in over 300 cities, le Prez decides to declare a state of emergency... Mon Dieu! :eek:

The urban welfare state in the US is for the most part a myth cooked up by the GOP to use urban/suburban divisions to leverage their guys into office. Only weak minds buy into it.

You're joking, right?

... The urban welfare state in the US is for the most part a myth cooked up by the GOP to use urban/suburban divisions to leverage their guys into office. Only weak minds buy into it.


You're joking, right?

Of course he's kidding!!

Imagine if you will that somehow the people in government get the guts to close our borders, deport all illegals, and then streamline the process for them to come in as legal immigrants.

I STILL see problems

1) I know some people here in VA that hire illegals... they tell me that the price is going up, that they won't touch jobs for the same price they used to. Once they are legal, the price will go up even more they don't have anything left to fear. And they will need to be paid more for the same net that they get now (taxes you know). This will increase the cost to the employer. The employer will have to pay his share of taxes that he doesn't have to pay now. Is there any real doubt that any big advantage of using immigrant labor will evaporate?

2) I don't see any sign of the masses becomming Americian, becomming part of our culture. This would/will/is another explosion waiting to happen. Can anybody explain where this impression of mine is wrong?

3) Stop for a moment and think. The illegals are here earning money. What are they doing with it? Spending it on businesses, homes, cars, luxuries? Everything I hear says that most of the money is going back home. We have money going out of this country with this country gaining nothing in return! I'm not smart enough to know exactally what impact this will have on the economy but It simply cannot be good. Maybe it is so small of an ammount that it will have no appreciable effect. What about when we have twice the number? Three times?

You can't say that this happens with international trade now. Note the word "TRADE". Money goes out of the country. Something comes in. That something gets used or sold thereby generating more money in the US. Maybe my view of money is simplistic. Correct me if I am wrong in substance.

Last but not least...

If we implement a program of closing the borders and shipping back the illegals... might we not see here something like what is going on in France? Is it possible that some in the administration believe this is the case and THAT is why we see this inexplicable reluctance to enforce the laws?

That "expert" is Prince Charles, the future KING of England!

What a capital clown that guys is! Why is it that anybody pays attention to him at all? And no, he will never wear the crown. It will pass directly from his mother to his sons.

I think not. The social welfare system in France is orders of magnitude more extensive than it is in the US. We spend almost nothing on welfare in this country compared with Europe. The urban welfare state in the US is for the most part a myth cooked up by the GOP to use urban/suburban divisions to leverage their guys into office. Only weak minds buy into it.

If that is the case and indeed the welfare state is negligible, let's dismantle it tomorrow under the legitimate argument that it does not make any real difference anyway. Less gov expense would (hopefully!) mean less taxes, and more toys for me. :)

A wiff of grapeshot, and a touch of the cold steel. The coming days ought to be interesting; perhaps we should take notes, though probably not for what we should do, but more of what we shouldn't do.:neener:

"HOW TO BURN THE COUNTRY DOWN IN A MONTH: a primer in urban renewal"

Brought to you by who else, FRANCE.

act now and get "PARIS IS BURNING, BUT IM NOT FIDDLING" by Jacky boy


seriously, this is only going to foster Le Pen, and honestly he worries me.

Uhh, can you say late Roman Empire? Tribute to the barbarians didn't help things then, why would they now?

Hmm, this is making me want to knock 5 years of dust off Age of Empires & Age of Kings CD cases & play. :) [/hijack]

Stand Watie, I think you're right about the iron fist/velvet glove approach. And my great great grandmother and father (my maternal grandmother's grandparents) lived next door to the real Stand Watie in the Vinita, Okla area, and they were with him when the great Cherokee General died (or so the family story goes...).

\..Stand Watie, I think you're right about the iron fist/velvet glove approach. And my great great grandmother and father (my maternal grandmother's grandparents) lived next door to the real Stand Watie in the Vinita, Okla area, and they were with him when the great Cherokee General died (or so the family story goes...).

I took my username as a tip of the hat to my wife's grandad, who was a genuine oklahoma cowboy/Indian and like Stand Watie a confederate to the bone. I'd be curious to see a follow up bio on Stand Watie's decendants to see how they're doing. Texas's most famous Indian's (Quanah Parker) decendents pretty much run things in their neck of the woods - judges, state legislators etc. Contrary to Hollywood mythmaking, not all American Indians turned into degenerate alcoholics with the advent of euro society - some adapted very well.

seriously, this is only going to foster Le Pen, and honestly he worries me.


exactimundo, I wondered when someone else would say it....

Le Pen worries you more than a Muslim-controlled Europe?

There's no way the Muslims will ever control Europe. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't cuase any trouble...

interviews with French thugs from "the Guardian" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,16518,1637465,00.html)

"Sylla summed it up. 'We burn because it's the only way to make ourselves heard, because it's solidarity with the rest of the non-citizens in this country, with this whole underclass. Because it feels good to do something with your rage,' he said.

'The guys whose cars get torched, they understand. OK, sometimes they do. We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand. They did nothing, they suffered in silence. We don't have a choice. We're sinking in ????, and France is standing on our heads. One way or another we're heading for prison. It might as well be for actually doing something." Empasis Mine. Yes I would understand you torching my car. You would understand when I make my car your funeral pyre...

Doesn't Socialism create wonderful values? :barf:

We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand....We don't have a choice.I'd say pretty much the same thing after shooting them.