Never take anything for granted... ANYTHING...

[Lee Lapin]

Not making fun of this officer/department, not cop bashing. Just trying to point out that Murphy is always around and when he isn't he still has volunteer human helpers. Don't take anything for granted in terms of your own equipment and training or that of people you supervise. You can't afford to assUme...

lpl/nc
=====
From John Farnam-

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/27Oct05.html

27Oct05
Caught in the nick of time:

"Our department recently purchased G22s. Today, I received from Glock NY1 Trigger inserts with instruction from our chief to install them on all department pistols. One of our deputies dutifully came into the armory in order to have the part installed. She was in uniform and in the middle of her shift. I asked her to remove her pistol from its holster and hand it to me. As I 'unloaded' it, I discovered it was already unloaded! She then informed me, 'Oh, the pistol isn't loaded. I shot all my bullets up last week during training.' Trying to retain my composure, I asked her if she saw a problem with this! She sheepishly told me that she was too 'embarrassed' to ask for replacement, duty ammunition! As supervisors, with all our coaching and directing, we obviously sometimes fail to note philosophical gulfs in our charges. What followed was yet another half-hour lecture on the nature of police work and this young officer's role and responsibilities in it. I sincerely hope I 'got to' her this time, albeit late!"

Comment: Supervisors have to be watching all the time, as many of our young officers are naive and, dare I say, adolescent. We need to see to it that they live long enough to be able to laugh someday about their youthful ignorance! /John

[trickyasafox]

im confused, are officers reprimanded for drawing extra ammunition? or is it they are asked to use seperate practice ammunition?

[pax]

Yikes.

Hmmm. If she was too embarrassed to ask for more ammunition (understandable; in some depts she'd get teased for shooting defense ammo) -- I wonder if it occured to her that a box of 20 Hydra-Shoks only costs around $15 at the local gun shop? For some people, $15 isn't too high a price to pay to avoid embarrasment!

pax

[Lupinus]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :cuss:

How is it embarrasing to get more ammo? Heck I would think practicing so she could put up all in the ten ring or make a smily face on her target and show up the guys that arnt practicing would kind of be the opposit of embarrasment?

And you know it isn't so much her that I feel for. It's her partner or the person that gets hurt cause the criminal was able to shoot someone cause she couldn't shoot them.

Can we say.....http://www.geocities.com/deadbrokereality/bsflag.gif

[TallPine]

I wonder if it occured to her that a box of 20 Hydra-Shoks only costs around $15 at the local gun shop?
Probably not ... she probably doesn't know that a non-LEO can legally buy ammo at a store :p


So does she carry a bullet in her pocket now ????? :D

[mete]

Not a unique situation at all.Go through this forum an check how many times you see questions about - should I load my carry gun, should I have a round in the chamber, should the gun be cocked ???....BTW I took Farnam's course ,it's one of the best !

[sm]

I am not surprised.
I am saddened, and upset, not surprised though.

I used to assist on a Private Range. We had officers come out to shoot, we had armored car , and other security folks come out as well.

I saw and heard some things that flat scared me. I also got angered as well.

We had two officers show up to shoot before re-quals, one Hk fired once , the other HK fired only twice. We had to knock out the casing - these were corroded and would not come out of the chamber any other way.

Scared the officers, they often partenered up. I asked to check the duty shotgun, I am glad I did. Case heads were corroded, ammo would not chamber, crimps were whomperjawed, swollen shells. Ammo would not work in my gun.

Seems these officers were not really raised in a shooting environment. They were told they could only draw so much ammo for training, and duty carry. Only the Armorer was allowed to mess with the guns. It was not uncommon for officers to be "made aware of" of Budget cuts, and how they did not need to "bother" Armorers and all.
They were NOT encouraged to buy ammo other than from dept. They had been frightented. Just seems coming out to our place was okay - and the only place "other ammo" was okay...never figured this out.

The older officers were really great folks, mentoring the difference from what learned in Academy to Real world on the streets.

One of the older officers showed up during this problem. He did not scold per se' - instead he had a sit down and anytime you have a question or problem - call him - even tho he was not their supervisor. We cleaned up the guns, we had new ammo for the duty sidearms, and shotgun - even tho not the official duty ammo, it was close enough. He later came up with the correct ammo, even tho these two did go on duty with something else. I even volunteered to take the blame, make a call saying I used up the ammo...anything. Older officer said he would take the rap...just suggested the officers not shoot anyone they didn't have to...

Security and armored car folks - saw the same thing. One company said the officers could shoot any ammo they wanted out the Model 10s they had to use - as long as it was 158 gr LRN.

Again - afraid to ask for more ammo for fear of gettng yelled at. I replaced the corroded ammo, cleaned the guns, and instead of Rem ammo, I sent them off with Winchester 158 LRN - still met reg's.

WE reloaded Montana gold bullets in a variety of calibers, we didn't make any money of it - thank goodness some folks donated money, powder, or bought bullets and primers. Even had some help reload. This allowed not only CCW students to shoot, but many many officers to shoot and learn. I am grateful to seasoned officers, and even retired ones that volunteered to share some things not taught in the academy.

Never told the Armorer either for one Dept. He finally left, still the seasoned officers said to do what is right and not what the regs said.

Not real happy with some beauracratic , budget minded, paper pushing folks myself.

Yes I also introduced the Civilians to LEO sometimes. This opened eyes, made friends, and better explained the LEO is not a bad person nor is the Civilian with a gun concealed a bad person either.

That "Us vs Them" mindset we hear about.

Sad, upset, not surprised tho'.

Steve

[whm1974]

Probably not ... she probably doesn't know that a non-LEO can legally buy ammo at a store

In lot of Depts Officers who are gun collercters or hunters are frown apon. In some areas most cops havn't even touch a gun until they went to police adcadmy.

Security and armored car folks - saw the same thing. One company said the officers could shoot any ammo they wanted out the Model 10s they had to use - as long as it was 158 gr LRN.

This is stuiped, what happends if they had shoot a perp and the bullet goes thourgh and harms a bystander?

I have heard that here in IL a security guard can legally only use a .38 revolver while on duty. A guard at work has told me that if she purchase a gun for work use, under federal law she could never sell that gun to another person. I call BS on this one.

Do company lawyers make up stuff to keep the compant from getting sued?

-Bill

[antarti]

-- I wonder if it occured to her that a box of 20 Hydra-Shoks only costs around $15 at the local gun shop? For some people, $15 isn't too high a price to pay to avoid embarrasment!

I know embarassment is the least of her troubles, but shouldn't the department be embarassed instead?

DISCLAIMER: I am pretty ignorant about LEO training, armorers, etc., but:

My friends in the local Sheriffs dept basically show up with a tackle box and rattle off the calibers they shoot, and the box gets filled with practice ammo by their armorer. When we get a group together for a range trip, these guys start first, shoot fastest, and finish last. They're very grateful to have access to so much practice ammo (and the rest of us good naturedly rib them about shooting the ammo we bought them, lol).

My childhood friends in the Marine Patrol are probably at the range a minimum of 2 days per week, blowing off a serious number of rounds each time. When I had more leisure time, I would watch them practice. They are amazingly skilled guys, and weren't shy about helping make others better shooters. Each of them easily had to eclipse over a couple thousand rounds a month, every month, for the past 15 years.

How many bullets is the typical weekly "training" load where this happened?

Wouldn't LEOs getting large volume practice with their firearms be encouraged in any department?

[sm]

Hey,
Don't fuss at me. I can only convey what the Companies posted and employees reg's they had to follow.

Some security guards are not allowed to carry firearms - thier job is to "observe and report". This includes the door to fire extinguisher not wanting to stay closed, to an extension cord that may cause someone to trip, to the light bulb in the bathroom needing replaced.

Folks even allowed / qualified to carry firearms are often sent to jobs to where the Business does not want an armed security guard. This costs a few more bucks per hour, and perhaps the duties of this officer "does not really require being armed" , or " we don't want to give the impression things are that serious around here". The officer is not allowed to carry on duty while at that site.

Understand - many times the appearance of a security guard is to satisfy 1) Insurance requirements, 2) give the public a feeling of being secure.

Many Security companies have to satisfy Their insurance needs. How many folks are qualified to carry a sidearm, and how many are on actual duty with one.
The model 10 is about as PC, simple to maintain, idiot proof as it gets. Some of these guns the Security Companies have are old. A person "draws one" and the 158 gr LRN ammo, with a holster and goes on duty. When duty shifts ends , he returns it.

I mean the public dont' know about 158gr LRN. The media has taught the public about "evil cop killer bullets with gaping hollow points , Talons, and special coatings that do this, that and so on..."

CYA and use the simple 158gr LRN that "cops walking the beat used 40 years ago" this is PC and not only does this keep the public all warm and fuzzy because Uncle Joe was a Cop and carried it - but the insurance said they liked the ammo...keep the insurance company happy and the rates dont' go up- or you get cancelled. Part of CODB ( cost of doing business) Overhead if you will.

So as Lee so aptly titled this thread:

Never take anything for granted... ANYTHING...

The reality is - each individual is responsible for their own safety, any kids or family they are out with.

The LEOs and Security Folks on this forum will share this reality and back me up.

I know LEO and some older Security folks, that do know how to shoot, can shoot, that will back me up.

Reality is at $7 an hour, Security with a firearm really does not want to pull the trigger. NO more than any us of us want to.

Then again if $7 an hour security person , with a Model 10 with 158 gr LRN - has presence - it makes the shoppers ( sheeple) feel better. They see Security take the bank bag to the cashier for change, walk out front and view the shoppers coming in and leaving parking area.

Someone gets mugged, and even Security is not around -- in another part of blgd, the store has covered its butt by having security on premise - armed or not- and the business lawyers and media handlers have something to satisfy company lawyers. Add some video cameras and its golden.

Hence the reason it is best for individuals to CCW.
Cannot take for granted someone else is going to there for you when you need it.

Well there is that part where your injured,or dead body is observed and report is made out by someone...eventually.

Steve

[ceetee]

Deputies in our local Sheriff's Office are allowed to carry any handgun off a fairly good list of "approved models". They have to purchase the guns themselves. Many do choose to forego expensive 9's, 10's, forties, or forty-fives, and equip themselves with .38 revolvers.

They are issued one full load and two reloads of "department issue ammunition". That's it. If they carry a six-shooter, they get eighteen rounds (and they'd better have all eighteen with them whenever they get inspected, too!). Off-duty practice is neither encouraged, or discouraged, but if you happen to shoot one or two of your "carry ammo", you had better visit a gunshop, pronto, for a resupply!

[whm1974]

CYA and use the simple 158gr LRN that "cops walking the beat used 40 years ago" this is PC and not only does this keep the public all warm and fuzzy because Uncle Joe was a Cop and carried it - but the insurance said they liked the ammo...

Like most crimmals used the same guns they did 40 years ago. And like I said above, what happends if a bullet goes through and hits a bystander?

-Bill

[sm]

I am not going to argue what happens if a 158gr LRN goes thru and hits a bystander.

Same damn thing a JHP that misses and hits a bystander- the shooter is in a world of hurt -that is what.

The reality is everyone is responsible for any and all projectiles exiting a firearm no matter if LRN, LSWC, JHP or FMJ, or OO buckshot or slugs.

NO matter if Security Guard, Armored car guard, LEO, Professional Body guard, Psycopath, Meth dealer, street thug , or a child that finds a loaded gun and fires it striking a family member or anyone else for that matter.

I choose to carry FMJ in 45ACP and 9mm on purpose , or in a extra mag, at times. I also choose to prefer 1oz rifled [Foster slugs] in a 12 ga shotgun too.

Now if you have a bone to pick with me - say it in a PM to me - not on this forum and not in this thread. Stand down, get off my ass or send me a PM - please!

Now Clint Smith has admitted and suggested to others to carry FMJ ammo in 1911s. Awerbuck is one instructor whom has shared he prefers slugs in 12 ga shotguns for defense.

Now IIRC the topic of this thread is:

Never take anything for granted... ANYTHING...

I suggest we get back on topic, and take note of the fact this is the Strategies and Tactics forum. Meaning - we learn from it.

WE have learned from original post someone had an unloaded duty weapon. Now the officer would have been in a world of hurt if a situation had occurred while on duty and needed that weapon to discharge a bullet. Officer could have been injured, dead, her partners were in danger and so would have been any civlians.

WE have learned about dept practices and ammo distribution along with training regimes. We have learned some officers have poorly kept firearms and these would not have discharged due to poor maintenance and/or ammo.

We should all know by now - before reading this thread - the 4 Rules including Rule 4 which is know your target and what is behind it. I have never seen rule 4 make any mention as to specific ammo that is to be used - or not used.

Steve

[4v50 Gary]

Like most crimmals used the same guns they did 40 years ago. And like I said above, what happends if a bullet goes through and hits a bystander?

-Bill

Lawsuits of course. Would anyone expect anything different in this litigious society?

Getting back to the point Lee Lapin was trying to make, it's not surprising how many officers (or guards) see the sidearm as a tool of the trade. To them it's just part of the job. The involved officer shouldn't have been embarassed to ask for more ammo and the range should have a post-range cleaning session followed by a loading at the range (muzzle down range). This allows the firearms instructor to ensure that the guns are clean and loaded when they hit the streets.

[Kodiaz]

Will Hydrashock have the same penetrating power of good ole FMJ I dont know much about pistols I purchased mine 3 years ago I taught myself how to use it and i think im a decent shot. But I cant see a bullet designed ti mushroom right away penetrating an interior wall (interior wall made from dry wall or sheet rock) or a car door without mushrooming and giving up a lot of its energy when it penetrates an object. Am I wrong to think that fmj would penetrate better because of higher velocity and the fact that it doesnt mushroom as much.

I dont have a concealed weapons permit so I don't carry i would use the pistol for home defense and I think that for that scenario i would have an advantage of putting rounds through an interior wall that someone would be shooting from

?? Am I wrong here??

[Double Naught Spy]

Just trying to point out that Murphy is always around and when he isn't he still has volunteer human helpers.

Actually, this is Finagle's Law, not Murphy's Law

"Finagle's Law of Dynamic Negatives" and usually rendered "Anything that can go wrong, will".

Murphy's law is "If there are two or more ways to do something, and one of those ways can result in a catastrophe, then someone will do it."

Dallas PD has a sign on their gate that faces into the range. It reads something like, "Stop and Load Weapons."

Apparently like the female officer in the original post, many cops have managed to do their required shooting and leave without ever reloading or topping off mags. So the sign had to be put into place.

[Jeff White]

Many THR members are continually complaining about the militarization of our police departments over in the Legal and Political Forum. Then they come over here and cry and moan because police officers aren't all gun nuts and as well trained as an operator assigned to the unit the Army won't officially acknowledge exists even though Lee Marvin and Chuck Norris made B movies about it.

Not one of you would like to see his or her taxes raised enough to actually pay for enough training, instructors, ammunition etc. to turn your neighborhood cop into a warrior.

Administrators and police boards don't like hiring new recruits with an interest in firearms or a lot of military combat arms experience. It's two different mindsets they say.

Let me say this, I doubt that the level of training of people holding CCWs is any better then the level of training a police officer gets and is probably much worse. I read some statistics here at THR once that said that a great majority of CCW holders almost never even carried their weapons. The different states have varying requirements to get a CCW, some states require no training. I don't think any require the 24-40 hours that most states require police officers to have at the basic level.

How many private citizens posting in this thread train regularly? Plinking at the range doesn't count. I'm talking about training with tasks and conditions they must be accomplished under and standards that you have to meet to pass? I'd bet its not many.

So, do you want warriors or social workers on your local police department? And are you willing to foot the bill so that they can meet your high standards for them?

Jeff

[The_Antibubba]

It's also "no-gun" training. Just as there are cops who are barely proficient with the tools of their trade, there are also those who are the opposite, and can't wait to draw gun, baton, or Tazer and show someone who's in charge. Or those who think that if one shot is good, then thirty or more is perfect (I'm thinking Amidou Diallo).

Whether it is using too much force, or not enough, or improperly applied, training is the most important tool. It used to be what set SWAT teams apart from the regular police; now there's less emphasis on training and more on tactical black uniforms and state of the art toys--er, tools. A rifle that can consistently make 1/2 moa at 500 meters isn't worth anything if the shooter can't hit the broad side of a barn-or shoots the wrong guy. Yes, there are many outstanding, well-trained and tempered officers out there. A high percentage of them are the ones who, on their own and often at their own expense, seek out more training than their department offers.

[Jeff White]

The_Antibubba,

I agree that it's all about training. There isn't enough of any kind of training. Why, because the public won't pay for it. It's just that simple.

And you're right, the best trained officers are usually the ones who take classes on their own time and pay their own way thru training courses and practice on their own.

The fact of the matter is, that until the average pay is increased to that of other professionals who routinely pay for their own inservice training, i.e. doctors, lawyers, etc. you aren't going to find that many who will do it.

Unfortunately I don't see any level of government paying that kind of wage for what most people consider a blue collar job. Outside of larger agencies, the police in this country are pretty much under paid. Around here it's not uncommon for a small municipality to pay an officer $7.75 an hour to start. I make more then that where I work, but if I didn't have an army pension and benefits, I couldn't afford to work where I do. I read somewhere that the majority of police officers in the US work for agencies of 10 officers or smaller. Even with larger, urban and state agencies raising the average, I would bet that overall it's one of the lowest paid professions.

It all boils down to money. If you want a well trained and professional police department, you have to be willing to pay for it. Either by paying for the training, to include the overtime or comptime, or by raising the salary high enough so that the profession attracts the kind of people who will take care of their own professional development.

Jeff

[geekWithA.45]

I'd like to point out that policemen and military warriors are two separate things, for two separate purposes.

Their skillsets happen to overlap in certain areas, such as sidearm proficiency, and demanding competence in this area is NOT inconsistent with objecting to the militarization of police.

Is demanding minimal competence in sidearm proficiency of ourselves tantamount to the "militarization of the private citizen"?

It's not too much to ask that our policemen have enough common sense to realize that not having any ammo is a situation that requires immediate rectification. This is plain ol' common sense. I'm also fairly certain that the concept that a gun isn't useful unless it's loaded is mentioned at least once at the police academy.

The thing is, we DO pay for the training of our police officers, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that at the end of it, we get someone who is able to connect the all the dots on the purpose and use of their sidearm.

[G27 Hider]

I have heard that here in IL a security guard can legally only use a .38 revolver while on duty.

In Florida, security guards can only carry a .38 or .357 (loaded with .38) and Private Investigators can only carry the above or a .380 auto or 9mm. One may only carry a firearm of the specific type and caliber one qualifies with.

This includes bodyguards! So if you hire a bodyguard to protect you from a very real threat, he is prohibited by law from carrying anything larger than 9mm.

Additionally, there is a "two guns" limit and an ammo restriction - no:

1. Glaser-type or any other pre-fragmented-type bullets
2. Exploding bullets.
3. Full metal jacket(fmj)/full metal case(fmc) bullets (except this type may be used in semiautomatic pistols only)
4. Teflon-coated (ktw-type) or any other type of armor piercing bullets
5. Full wadcutter bullets (except on firing range)
6. Reloads (except on firing range)

To recap, in Florida:

Bank Guard/Armored Truck Guard: takes a "D" license course for guard certification and then the 28 hour "G" license course with 4 hourse of recert per year for firearms certification -- can carry a .38 (or a .357 with .38 ammo) with the above ammo restrictions

Bodyguard/Investigator: does 5000 hours of intern work for "C" certification and then the 28 hour "G" license course with 4 hourse of recert per year for firearms certification -- can carry .38 (or a .357 with .38 ammo), .380 auto or 9mm with the above ammo restrictions.

Armed Citizen: takes a hunter safety course and submits prints and a background check: no caliber restrictions, ammo restrictions, etc - can legally carry a S&W 500 Mag with ANY legal ammunition.

Nice eh?

[Jeff White]

geekWithA.45 said;
I'd like to point out that policemen and military warriors are two separate things, for two separate purposes.

That's true, however we expect both of them to go into harms way for us and a warriors mindset is necessary to win those encounters.

Their skillsets happen to overlap in certain areas, such as sidearm proficiency, and demanding competence in this area is NOT inconsistent with objecting to the militarization of police.

There already are minimum standards. I don't know any state that doesn't have minimum standards for competency. You the taxpayer through your elected officials appointing members of police training and standards boards have set those standards. If you feel they aren't high enough, perhaps you should contact your elected official about that. Whining on an internet forum may be a good way to vent, but it won't fix the problem.

Is demanding minimal competence in sidearm proficiency of ourselves tantamount to the "militarization of the private citizen"?

Would you support the same 24 to 40 hours of firearms training a basic police recruit gets for everyone who wanted to carry a sidearm? How about an annual pass/fail qualification shoot? Fail to qualify, lose your CCW. I'm not sure, but I don't think that any state that permits CCW has those kinds of standards.

It's not too much to ask that our policemen have enough common sense to realize that not having any ammo is a situation that requires immediate rectification. This is plain ol' common sense. I'm also fairly certain that the concept that a gun isn't useful unless it's loaded is mentioned at least once at the police academy.

No it's not too much to ask. But anyone can have a memory lapse. You know every open enrollment shooting course I have ever attended reminds you when you leave the range for lunch or at the end of the day, to place your weapon back into the condition you normally carry it in. Why is this reminder necessary? Don't the tuned in citizen shooters who pay good money to attend these classes have enough common sense to load their weapons before they leave the range? Surely every CCW training course, (if your state requires one) tells everyone how useful an unloaded weapon is?

Years ago when I was still on active duty and a reserve officer with a local PD, I was walking out of the station at the end of the shift and met a State Police Master Sergeant who was walking in. This man (who is now long retired) had been working the desk at state police headquarters (45 miles away) and was stopping in to drop some paperwork off on his way home. I noticed his holster was empty. "Lonnie, where's your weapon?" I asked. He dropped his hand to his holster and went pale. :%^&$ I left it in the desk drawer at post!" he said as he got back into his squad to make the 45 mile trip back to pick it up. "I'm glad I didn't decide to stop a car for a contact on the way down." he remarked. This trooper was very switched on and had won at least one gunfight with an armed robbery suspect that I knew of. But that night, he took his weapon out of his holster and locked it in the desk for comfort, then he finished his boring tour on the desk, walked out, got in his squad car and drove home. My point is, that anyone can have a momentary lapse of memory. One habit I got into in the army is before I move from one location to another, I do a precombat check to make certain I haven't forgotten anything. Usually just amounts to a quick pat down to make certain everything is where it's supposed to be but I do it subconciously.

The thing is, we DO pay for the training of our police officers, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that at the end of it, we get someone who is able to connect the all the dots on the purpose and use of their sidearm.

As long as you hire human beings to be police officers, things like that will happen. The only way to fix it, is to change the way the system works. Change the hiring criteria some and change the training to better instill a warriors mindset. The female officer who worked for a week with an unloaded weapon pointed out some glaring problems in the selection process that hired her, the training process that allegedly trained her, and the mindset of her superiors.

Jeff

[walking arsenal]

In lot of Depts Officers who are gun collercters or hunters are frowned upon. In some areas most cops havn't even touched a gun until they went to police adcademy.

Not the first time i've heard this.

An officer asked me once "you know a lot about guns don't you" i said yes and he told me not to tell anyone in the department i got hired at because they would think i was trigger happy.

[Skyviking]

Kodiaz, JHPs will plug up and act like solids when passing through sheetrock walls, upholstery, and even clothing. Handgun rounds have been found to penetrate more dwelling walls than .223 JHPs. You are right on in your thinking that most interior walls are concealment, not cover from even handgun rounds, so hiding behind a sheetrock wall is false security.

You are to be commended for training yourself to shoot your handgun, but I would encourage you (and everyone else) to seek out some professional training. Some extremely good, nationally-renowned trainers like Randy Cain and Jeff Gonzalez regularly give 2, 3, 4, and even 5-day classes at a range facility up in Lakeland, FL.

Randy Cain has a website: http://www.cumberlandtactics.com

It's a wise man who admits that the more he learns, he finds out how little he knows. I'm still learning.

[Zundfolge]

The fact of the matter is, that until the average pay is increased to that of other professionals who routinely pay for their own inservice training, i.e. doctors, lawyers, etc. you aren't going to find that many who will do it.
I don't buy that.

Police officers are paid on the same level as many other professionals who routinely pay for their own inservice training, i.e. nurses, IT people, etc. We expect professionalism and proficiency from them, why not cops?

I certainly don't expect your average beat cop to be on the same level as some Delta Force or SAS operator, and I don't expect them to be able to shoot like Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham, but for crimany's sake I do expect them to know they have to have ammo in a gun they carry on duty (and be willing and able to procure it on their own if they have to).

[M-Rex]

If I was partnered up with this officer, or relying on this officer for back-up on a call, I would be VERY concerned.

If she is so meek that she couldn't ask for more ammunition when she shot all of hers up, how in the world is she going to handle the vulgarities of working a beat, and dealing with criminals?

The mind boggles...

[Jeff White]

Zundfolge said;
Police officers are paid on the same level as many other professionals who routinely pay for their own inservice training, i.e. nurses, IT people, etc. We expect professionalism and proficiency from them, why not cops?

Maybe where you live but not around here and not in many parts of the country. I will try to dig up some average pay figures, but like I said before, all of the good paying departments don't up the average pay all that much.

I certainly don't expect your average beat cop to be on the same level as some Delta Force or SAS operator, and I don't expect them to be able to shoot like Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham, but for crimany's sake I do expect them to know they have to have ammo in a gun they carry on duty (and be willing and able to procure it on their own if they have to).

In the first post in the thread, the statement was made that the officer knew she had no ammunition for a week. Somewhere there was a failure in the system. Someone with that type of mindset, a) shouldn't have been hired in the first place b) should never have made it out of the academy c) should have been checked by her supervisor. Any or all of those checks failed.

M-Rex said,
If I was partnered up with this officer, or relying on this officer for back-up on a call, I would be VERY concerned.

Everyone has officers they work with who you'd just as soon not see show up to back you up. If this story is true, it really makes you wonder about what kind of leadership there is in that agency.

If she is so meek that she couldn't ask for more ammunition when she shot all of hers up, how in the world is she going to handle the vulgarities of working a beat, and dealing with criminals?

This makes me wonder if the story is even true. I can't imagine someone so out of touch lasting long on the street. Of course, she could work for a large agency in an administrative job where she had no real contact with police work.

Jeff

[beerslurpy]

This is NYC I beleive, so yeah the story could very easily be true. Many people in NYC go their entire lives without ever being exposed to a gun. Why should the police be any different?

Someone once exclaimed "how can Citrus county deputies be so stupid?" I answered "because they hire them out of the local population." This is the exact same reason NYC cops lack familiarity with firearms or the concept of purchasing ammunition from a gun store (a gun store in NYC, when was the last time you saw one of these?). If you want cops who know how to use guns and have common sense, ensure the population at large has these traits.

ps- I grew up in NYC, so I speak with some authority on this subject

[geekWithA.45]

The female officer who worked for a week with an unloaded weapon pointed out some glaring problems in the selection process that hired her, the training process that allegedly trained her, and the mindset of her superiors.


Jeff, despite having taken different trails, I think we both arrived @ the same destination.

My beef is not with the particular officer in question, and I'm always willing to make allowances for the general slop that comes up when dealing with humans. Your example of the switched on guy who left his sidearm locked in his desk is a good example: a human failing, which he immediately understood to be wrong and rectified, at some personal inconvenience.

My beef is with the constellation of systems and processes you point out that seem to be systematically indifferent to their results.

My contention is that the same time/money, if used in a smarter manner, would produce higher quality results than the current process, and do it more consistently.

[NCP24]

She then informed me, 'Oh, the pistol isn't loaded. At least she didn’t leave her loaded duty weapon in a public restroom.

This is stuiped, what happends if they had shoot a perp and the bullet goes thourgh and harms a bystander? Are you talking about 38spl 158 gr LRN? I don’t think it happens to often, in fact I can think of several cases where 38spl +P 158 gr JHP failed to penetrate breastbones.