Pit Bull Rampage

[lysander]

Ladies and Gents....a "real life" scenario for you to ponder:

You live on a quiet suburban street. Two young children are being escorted by an adult door to door while they make an effort at collecting for a fundraiser. It is a pleasant Saturday afternoon. The two boys arrive at a house in the neighborhood (the wrong house) and are met by 3 Pit Bulls...who escape from their owner's home and attack them. From inside your home you hear a ruckus and come outside and see the three dogs mauling a young boy. What do you do?

This just happened on Saturday in one of Chicago's far northwest suburbs. The final tally was:
Owner gets his thumb bit off.
One boy in critical condition.
One boy in serious condition.
Father attacked.
Neighbor attacked.
Finally police arrive and rack up 3 dead Pit Bulls.

Sadly...Illinois is not a CCW state. Nor is it terribly friendly to gun owners...I am surprised that not one neighbor had at least a shotgun available.


Escaped Pit Bulls Attack Six in Illinois

CARY, Ill. - A 10-year-old boy was in critical condition Sunday after three pit bulls escaped from a home and went on a rampage, attacking six people before police shot and killed the dogs, authorities said.

No charges had been filed Sunday, but McHenry County Sheriff Keith Nygren said it was being investigated as a crime scene.

Neighbors said the attacks started late Saturday afternoon when children going door-to-door for a fund-raiser arrived at the home of Scott Sword, 41, who owned the dogs.

"We had music playing, and I heard this bizarre sound," said Debby Rivera, who lives three houses away. "I looked out the window, and I saw a young boy. The dogs were just jumping on him."

"The screams were horrible," she said. The dogs were "relentless, like they were possessed."

The pit bulls attacked the two children, and when the dogs' owner tried to stop them, the dogs turned on him and bit off his thumb, Nygren said. The boy's father also tried to protect his son and was attacked. The dogs went after another neighbor as well.

"The scene sprawled over a couple blocks, it was a very chaotic scene," said Lt. Michael Douglas of the Cary Fire Protection District.

Residents threw rocks at the dogs and honked car horns to try to distract them from attacking before police arrived and shot the animals.

Jim Malone said he and a neighbor tried to beat the dogs back with baseball bats. "He'd hit them, they'd run, and they'd come back," Malone said. "This went on for 15 minutes."

The boy who was attacked, Nick Foley, was hospitalized in critical condition Sunday. His friend Jordan Lamarre, also 10, was in serious condition. Nick's father was listed in good condition. Sword and two others were treated for injuries and released.

[HighVelocity]

Very bad indeed. I hope the boys recover. As for the owner, he should be locked up in the nearest state housing facility. This is unacceptable! :cuss:

[Stevie-Ray]

If I have clear shots, I kill every damn one of the dogs. Only good Pit Bull is a dead one. I for one am sick to death of hearing about these and Rottweilers also. And don't bother to try to argue that "My Pit wouldn't attack anybody, he's just a pussycat."

One of the reasons I carry. There's too many idiotic morons on macho trips that own these dogs and can't control them. One approaches me or the wife without a leash, it's dead. Period.

[Mastrogiacomo]

One of the thoughts I had when first reading this story was "Why doesn't anyone grab a damn gun and kill them one by one?" Then I realized it was probably those wonderful gun control states with the safety of the people in mind....:cuss:

My heart goes out to those children. If something like that happened near me, I would emptied every gun I had to save them. I realize some people love this breed of dog but why do we continue to tolerate violent animals like they're some sort of status symbol?

[EddieCoyle]

I hate pitbulls. I've had experience with them too. If you're in a reading mood, check out this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156409

Here's a synopsis of my pitbull experience from that thread:
A pitbull attacked a little girl on my street. I was unarmed and working on my car at the time, so I sprayed the dog in the eyes and mouth with brake cleaner and it let go of the girl. Her father didn't pursue it, but the same pitbull later took care of itself by picking up a lit M-80.

For those pitbull defenders out there, beware of your dogs! One of my best friends had the sweetest, good-with-children, would-never-hurt-anybody pitbull that for no apparent reason (other than something suddenly and unexpectedly triggering in the dog's pea-sized brain) jumped out of the window of his van and brutally attacked an old woman on a bicycle. This dog was lovingly raised with his kids (and mine) and never showed any signs of aggression.

[P95Carry]

We must be careful here - previous pit threads have finished up going south!

I will admit tho I have little or no wish to see such dogs - anywhere. I know some folks love em and do not wish to upset good responsible people but - for me a Pit is as needy of control by its owner as a loaded gun. Some other dogs too in truth.

There is something genetic in there which lies dormant it seems so often - and ''ping'' - suddenly everything changes. Things are even worse when those dogs are brought up by macho dudes who train them to be aggressive - and then maintain inadequate control.

[torpid]

The pit bulls attacked the two children, and when the dogs' owner tried to stop them, the dogs turned on him and bit off his thumb, Nygren said. The boy's father also tried to protect his son and was attacked. The dogs went after another neighbor as well.

The thing that concerns me is when people have any animals that they can't control.

I don't mean folks not caring about what their animal does, I mean decent people who just cannot stop the animal from its misbehavior (running, attacking, etc.). I especially get irked when I see things like a 9-year old girl being dragged by a dog twice her size on a leash.

If you are going to have an animal, you must be able to keep control of it during a "malfunction" (for lack of a better word). In my opinion, it's the gun equivalent of keeping the muzzle pointed downrange. If the animal is beyond your ability to restrain (or stop- even through grave measures if necessary) you're in essence "sweeping" the world with your animal with your "finger on the trigger".

This goes for any animal that can do serious harm, I'm not on any bandwagon here.

.

[Warren]

Almost all of the homeless/streetscum in the downtown area have one or more Pits.

It is only a matter of time until something happens.

[Lupinus]

I will never own a Pitbull, Rottie, or Doberman nor will I even even allow one in my home. And if one comes at me or my family and even hints at being violent it will get a bullet in the head, if no gun its getting stabbed or a steel toe boot. They are usless animals bred for nothing more then to kill. Do I blame the dogs? No, it is what they were bred for. I don't blame a pitbull for attacking any mroe then I blame a hunting dog for bringing home a rabbit. But that does not mean you have to accept it and I far from accept it as not not being dangerous. That is what they were bred to do you can't train genetics out of a animal, simply won't work.

For those "my pit bull" or "my rottie" "is nothing but a big pussy cat" people are casulties waiting to happen, its like holding a grenaide with the pin removed convinced it wont go off cause it is wet, simply isn't the way things are. I know a man who was mauled by his rottie, thing was the biggist pussy cat you ever saw and was one of the best trained dogs I have ever come across. Jumped through a window and damn near killed him. Nother family two dobermans, they attacked the couple that owned them its jsut damn good luck their two young children were with their grandparents for the day. I could go all day with how many times I have met someone attacked by a pit bull but the ones above were close personal friends.

Those breeds are worthless and if you own one as a family pet you are nuts and in my prayers.

[joab]

Aw hell P95 this thread started going south by the third post

Everything said here about the owners need for these dogs to boost their macho level is very similar to what anti gunners say about guns being an extension of our manhood.

All the "He was such a good dog and never would do that" comments are eerily similar to what we hear the mothers of shot by cop delinquents.
We seem to dismiss their statements as poor excuses for bad parenting, but accept the pit bull owners statements as proof that pits are evil dogs.

As I have said many times before the majority of press described pit attacks are in fact pit mixes usually pit/lab mixes.
Maybe it's the labs that are evil.

As far as the man going to jail
Was the attack on his property? Within a fenced yard?

Pits are hunting/fighting dogs with a strong prey instinct, but with minimal natural human aggression instincts when you start mixing and otherwise practicing in irresponsible breeding practices problems start.

Regulation before the fact , of all large dogs, is what is needed.
Not holding the owners up for condemnation after the fact

[Warren]

The difference between Pits and guns is that a bunch of guns won't crash through your screen door and chase innocent people down the street shooting them.

[HD]

every macho ftard in our town has a pittrottiemastiffbulldog to make up for their tiny little 'clinton'...
hate the dam'd things , only good use is in soups and stews...

[joab]

The difference between Pits and guns is that a bunch of guns won't crash through your screen door and chase innocent people down the street shooting them.The comments are still based on ignorance
The association between a pit bulls free will and an inanimate gun has never been made

[JohnKSa]

So, would this thread generate the same ire on both sides if it the caption read "Large Dogs Rampage"?

Personally I don't care what breed or species it is, if it poses a real threat and it is attacking me or someone else, it's going to be lucky to live.

[silverlance]

I used to love the idea of owning a big scary rottweiler that will function essentially as an extension of my youknowwhat.

But a certain incident changed my mind.

About two months ago, I was out walking my Jindo (it's a korean dog, primitive breed, sticks VERY close to its owner and sort of resembles a huskie). We're walking down the street, leash/harness in my right hand, wrapped around fist (i never want to take chances), pooper scooper in my left.

Across the street, Mel, this guy who keeps a big rottweiler named Exo (he says its armenian for love) has him out on his front yard without a leash. There is no fence.

So, I wisely choose to keep walking on the other side, keeping a firm grip on Stalin, who is visibly eyeing the other dog very warily. Exo is just lying on the grass, thumping his tail.

Mel calls out, "Come on over! Exo is very friendly, he won't do anything. I guarantee you HE (emphasizes HIS dog) will be good."

Stupidly, (this is my first dog and i figured it might be good to teach socializing skills to Stalin) I walk over.

Everything is fine, Mel says good morning, we talk about the nifty allen scooper than i'm using, and then WHAM! all of a sudden Exo jumps up and charges Stalin and I (probably more stalin than me).

Just like that - no warning, tail thumping on grass second, charging 125lb (i'm guessing) full-grown rott the next. Stalin leaps up and meets him mid air, 45lbs vs ~125, and they go down in a tangle of snarls and paw punches. I pull stalin back behind me, shove my side into exo, and try to keep myself between the two dogs (which in hind sight was probably risky... but exo seemed much more interested in getting to stalin than me). Mel starts yelling and hitting exo with a CUCUMBER, beating him a whole bunch of times before the dog retreats. mel chases him back into the back yard, apologizing the whole way, saying that "maybe he smells something he doesn't like, he's never like this with any dog, just ask nydia (neighbor) , he plays with her dog all the time."

in short, some things learned:

1: NEVER let your dog outside without a leash, even if it's a 6" poofball. this is for far too many reasons to get into, use your head. what if your poofball runs out into the street? bites a baby in a stroller? starts a fight with a rott? the list goes on.

2: NEVER fall for "oh, he's totally friendly, he won't mess with your dog". unless you see a form of control, stay the hell away. no leash = irresponsible, stupid owner. you should also notice that very often the same ones who run their dogs around with no leash are also the ones who never walk their dogs because they're too damned lazy, so they figure that 15 minutes in the front yard will do the trick. rotts/pits also never get walked beceause their owners are afraid of "accidents".

3: carry something to deal with dogs. these days i never walk stalin without either a boker 3" knife, black bear's 951 maglite, or sabre tear gas/pepper spray. today, if i saw exo running to attack me, i would

a: pull my weapon.
b: drop leash.
c: spray, beat, or stab the hell out of the offending dog. i don't care if the neighbor hates me for life, this is a dog that can kill mine and then go for me. stalin (now 80lbs) may or may not win, but there is for sure no way I can outrun a pitbull.

final note: while i certainly agree that it is almost always the UPBRINGING that causes animals to be monsters, i am also certain that dogs are not tabla rasa or all equally "good at heart". from what i've read and seen over the years, pits and rotts are the equivalents of hand grenades, rpgs, and land mines.

safe if properly cared for, inexcusably dangerous if even slightly mishandled.

[Mad Chemist]

Pitbulls are dangerous.
We should ban them.:evil: :evil:

It's about RESPONSIBLE ownership....
Responsible dog owners,
responsible gun owners,
and responsible drivers work very hard to prevent and avoid accidents and injury.

Irresponsible people do not.:banghead:


Nearly all dogs have the potential to be dangerous even if they have never been aggressive before. Smaller weaker breeds can be just as dangerous as a pit. Generally the breed matters much less than the training and temperment.

[JohnKSa]

silverlance,

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

You know how you can tell someone's lying about their dog or their child? (Sometimes they don't know they're lying.)

When they start a sentence with the words:

"My child/dog would NEVER..."

Mammals are complex organisms. So complex that it is not possible to reliably predict their behavior to the extent that one can accurately say "NEVER' about any voluntary action.Generally the breed matters much less than the training and temperment.Perhaps, but NEITHER means anywhere near as much as keeping them under CONTROL. And I'm not talking about shouting at them. Even a leash can be insufficient control in some circumstances.

[antarti]

every macho ftard in our town has a pittrottiemastiffbulldog

Lupinus can probably vouch for the fact that most of rural and suburban Florida is crawling with Pits. You can't open a newspaper/flier/adbook without finding people breeding and selling them. You see them everywhere.

I'm leery seeing them walked at the beach or at parks. Kids playing (and what kid doesn't want to pet a dog?) everywhere.

[joab]

I kill every damn one of the dogs. Only good Pit Bull is a dead one.
"Why doesn't anyone grab a damn gun and kill them one by one?
I would emptied every gun I had to save them.
And if one comes at me or my family and even hints at being violent it will get a bullet in the head, if no gun its getting stabbed or a steel toe boot.
every macho ftard in our town has a pittrottiemastiffbulldog to make up for their tiny little 'clinton'...
hate the dam'd things , only good use is in soups and stews...

I see your point.
It is so obviously the pit bull owners that have the "macho" attitudes here

[pax]

I don't see a whole lot of discussion of Strategies or tactics here ... nor do I see anything at all even vaguely gun-related if we aren't going to discuss strategies or tactics.

I guess if this were the strategies or tactics forum, we might expect people to discuss what strategies or tactics would be appropriate for dealing with large, aggressive packs of dogs.

pax

[joab]

Well, we've learned that further aggravating them by throwing rocks and blowing car horns doesn't work.

Maybe wading in and actually making the dogs break contact would be a more appropriate method

[pax]

Joab, my aunt tried that -- and had to have her face surgically re-attached. I wouldn't recommend going hand to hand with an aggressive dog.

pax

[sm]

In this case, with the firearms laws being as they are-

Sounds as if the neighbors with baseball bats were the only ones with a plan, with tools and took action. Strategies and Tactics if you will.

As far as an Adult with two kids going door to door, only things I can think of is the adult having a walking stick, or heavy cane and pepper spray - if these are legal in the area this occurred.

Does not sound as if time to run to the responsible adult's car , inside of owner's house, or that of a neighbor was an option. Matters went south too fast. Evade to safe area would be a thought, like I said does not seen time , or distance were in these folks favor.

[joab]

and had to have her face surgically re-attached. I wouldn't recommend going hand to hand with an aggressive dog.The only other option is sitting back and watching
loud noise and rocks only further exites them
Going hand to hand when not qualified (for lack of a better word) only gives them more targets.
If your not willing to get into a dog fight don't interfere with one

I have never had to fight multiple dogs, but I have won a few full fledged fights one on one, once with a wolf hybrid.
The owner was a dainty woman sge had no "clinton at all"

[joab]

Sounds as if the neighbors with baseball bats were the only ones with a plan, with tools and took action. Strategies and Tactics if you will.Just my opinion based on experiences and some of the training films I've seen on the matter.
But swinging for the fences is not always the best tactic or strategy.
You may be better served by holding the dog off with the bat or stick or whatever.
The dog wants/needs to bite something stick the bat in his face and give him something to occupy his time as you back away to safety.

A purse , belt, leash or jacket would work also, as he is satisfying his oral fixation and thrashing his head you maintain just enough back pressure on the object to keep his attention on that object as you slowly back away.

[Warren]

Regulation before the fact , of all large dogs, is what is needed.
Not holding the owners up for condemnation after the fact

Wrong and wrong.

Government can't do anything but make the situation worse.

And the owner of a dog that mauls someone should be beaten then sued for his being an idiot.

But I suppose that is more of a legal and political option.

The only strategic or tactical option is for everyone to armed at all times. Kill all such dogs as soon as they show vicious behavior and to make sure that the owners are well aware of what will happen to them if their dogs attack someone.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Years ago I worked at a house where a woman owned a part Rot/Doberman female that was all pup, loved to play fetch and was very people friendly. Surprised the Hell out of us because none of us knew what to think before we played with her. A lot also has to do with people who buy dogs and train them to be dangerous and don't reward gentle behavior. If someone wants to own one of these breed, they need to be held accountable if something happens. I think they should also have surprise visits from the animal control officer to see that their home is secure to prevent the dogs from getting out.

[joab]

And the owner of a dog that mauls someone should be beaten then sued for his being an idiot.

But I suppose that is more of a legal and political option.

The only strategic or tactical option is for everyone to armed at all times. Kill all such dogs as soon as they show vicious behavior and to make sure that the owners are well aware of what will happen to them if their dogs attack someone.
Will beating the hell out of the dog owners or suing them heal the scars on the little girls face or bring the child back to life,

Why is there so much resistance to simple precautionary regulations such as mandatory fences.

And I thought it was just us evil penile deficient Pit owners that practiced all the macho posturing

[Snake Eyes]

Just to contribute something....

I was taught to back away from the attack while "offering" the inside of my left forearm to the charging dog. Cover/shield face with right arm. Hopefully you're wearing a coat or heavy sweatshirt, but in any case the forearm is pretty meaty and tough.

When the dog latches onto your left forearm, you grab a front leg with your left hand and a rear leg with your right (free) hand.

Raise the dog off the ground and bring it down sharply over your rising knee, breaking the dogs back.

Seek medical attention for the forearm bite.

Critiques?

[Lupinus]

Just like that - no warning, tail thumping on grass second, charging 125lb (i'm guessing) full-grown rott the next. Stalin leaps up and meets him mid air, 45lbs vs ~125, and they go down in a tangle of snarls and paw punches. I pull stalin back behind me, shove my side into exo, and try to keep myself between the two dogs (which in hind sight was probably risky... but exo seemed much more interested in getting to stalin than me). Mel starts yelling and hitting exo with a CUCUMBER, beating him a whole bunch of times before the dog retreats. mel chases him back into the back yard, apologizing the whole way, saying that "maybe he smells something he doesn't like, he's never like this with any dog, just ask nydia (neighbor) , he plays with her dog all the time
While I will admit I got a laugh out of the image of someone beating an attackin rottie with a cucumber that is NOT how you break up a dog fight. Two dogs are fighting and you get between them even your OWN dog can and often will bite you, when dogs fight they process threat and not nescisarily from who, they just know there is a threat infront of them they will make zero distinction between their owner and the dog they are attacking.

http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

I reccomend reading that to learn how to break up a dog fight.

Lupinus can probably vouch for the fact that most of rural and suburban Florida is crawling with Pits. You can't open a newspaper/flier/adbook without finding people breeding and selling them. You see them everywhere.
Yes they are everywhere. I've been looking at breeders too cause I plan to buy a dog and every search no matter what I try always turns up a good bit of pitbull and rottie kennel links.

[Warren]

Will beating the hell out of the dog owners or suing them heal the scars on the little girls face or bring the child back to life,

Why is there so much resistance to simple precautionary regulations such as mandatory fences.

And I thought it was just us evil penile deficient Pit owners that practiced all the macho posturing


1. No, but it teaches a lesson.

2. We are way over regulated as it is now, why add more?

3. It's not macho posturing. Vicious dogs of any breed need to be destroyed. Their owners must be made to pay a cost. What is so hard to understand about this. I think the same idea should be applied to DUIs who harm someone, or someone who causes an accident because they were talking on their cell instead of concentrating on their driving, or someone who acts like an idiot and shoots someone.

[joab]

No, but it teaches a lesson.
Yes, and lessons after the fact are so much more important:rolleyes:

We are way over regulated as it is now, why add more? Apparently we are not very over regulated or at the very least not effectively regulated. Why add more inefficient regulations on what to do after the fact.

You can already be sued into bankruptcy and imprisoned if it is found that you were negligent.

As has been pointed out most dog owners feel that those repercussions are for people with really bad dogs not theirs

And wouldn't it take some more regulation to be put into effect to start the destroying/banning of so call vicious breeds


Their owners must be made to pay a cost. What is so hard to understand about this.The fact that you feel that paying money or sending the owner to jail can some how mitigate the injuries done.

[jfruser]

I've taken up walking with my boy in the early AM (0515-0615). My boy is in a jog stroller (12 months old) & I wear my old jungle or leg boots from service to Unlce Sam*. I always bring my Taurus 651 Total Ti snubby in .357mag. I stoke it with Winchester 180gr Partition Gold HP. Not only does POA=POI at 7 yds, but they are very likely to penetrate even a pit bull's skill after the portion forward of the partition does its work.

My course of action in case of an unavoidable attack would be:
1. Interpose self between poochie & boy
2. Launch 2-3 rounds at poochie.
3. If poochie keeps coming (due to my misses or his toughness), I wait to get a contact shot on poochie's skull or boiler room with my remaining rounds (5 rounds, total). I don't expect to have time for a reload.
4. If I am out of rounds and poochie is still full of vim & vigor, I will do my best to choke out the poochie.

In case of multiple poochies, I might be in some trouble.

Snake Eyes has brought up another response that bears some scrutiny. Has anyone else heard of/practiced this technique? I would think it has advantages over choking out the poochie in multiple-dog attacks.

* I don't run, only walk (with a purpose) due to lack of light & rough sidewalks. I have added a 45# rucksack to my back once a week to increase the workout I get. The boots keep my feet tough. I only go a couple of miles most days, but rucksack days (usually Sat AM) get stretched to 4-5 miles. I need to get a better ruck, though.

Just to contribute something....

I was taught to back away from the attack while "offering" the inside of my left forearm to the charging dog. Cover/shield face with right arm. Hopefully you're wearing a coat or heavy sweatshirt, but in any case the forearm is pretty meaty and tough.

When the dog latches onto your left forearm, you grab a front leg with your left hand and a rear leg with your right (free) hand.

Raise the dog off the ground and bring it down sharply over your rising knee, breaking the dogs back.

Seek medical attention for the forearm bite.

Critiques?

[Pilgrim]

I was taught to back away from the attack while "offering" the inside of my left forearm to the charging dog. Cover/shield face with right arm. Hopefully you're wearing a coat or heavy sweatshirt, but in any case the forearm is pretty meaty and tough.

When the dog latches onto your left forearm, you grab a front leg with your left hand and a rear leg with your right (free) hand.

Raise the dog off the ground and bring it down sharply over your rising knee, breaking the dogs back.

Seek medical attention for the forearm bite.

Critiques?
Ahhh, how often have you practiced this? :what:

Pilgrim

[HD]

I was taught to back away from the attack while "offering" the inside of my left forearm to the charging dog. Cover/shield face with right arm. Hopefully you're wearing a coat or heavy sweatshirt, but in any case the forearm is pretty meaty and tough.

When the dog latches onto your left forearm, you grab a front leg with your left hand and a rear leg with your right (free) hand.

Raise the dog off the ground and bring it down sharply over your rising knee, breaking the dogs back.

Seek medical attention for the forearm bite.

Critiques?

[joab]

The forearm trick was one of the techniques taught, minus the back breaker.

I have used a similar trick a couple of times with medium to large dogs.
With your forearm in the dogs mouth grab him by the collar or scruff and force your arm further into the dogs mouth to lessen the leverage of the jaws.

You can either kick the hell out of him at that point or drop with all your weight on your forearm either breaking or dislocating the jaws or at the very least causing a great deal of pain.

Choking a determined dog is very difficult, they will instinctively protect their throat.

I saw a guy grab a Shepard by the tail once and start running backwards in a semi circular path to get him off a meter man.He pulled him until he got to a fence he could vault over.

The dog was trying to turn and chase and bite the guy but was so off balanced that he could not effectively do anything.

Other than the wounded meter reader it was kind of comical

[Lupinus]

I saw a guy grab a Shepard by the tail once and start running backwards in a semi circular path to get him off a meter man.He pulled him until he got to a fence he could vault over.

The dog was trying to turn and chase and bite the guy but was so off balanced that he could not effectively do anything.

Other than the wounded meter reader it was kind of comical
If you read the link I posted it discribes basicly the same thing but you do it by the hind legs and lift like a whellbarrow, it keeps the dog under more control and you get a better grip then the tail.

[Warren]

Yes, and lessons after the fact are so much more important:rolleyes:

Apparently we are not very over regulated or at the very least not effectively regulated. Why add more inefficient regulations on what to do after the fact.

You can already be sued into bankruptcy and imprisoned if it is found that you were negligent.

As has been pointed out most dog owners feel that those repercussions are for people with really bad dogs not theirs

And wouldn't it take some more regulation to be put into effect to start the destroying/banning of so call vicious breeds


The fact that you feel that paying money or sending the owner to jail can some how mitigate the injuries done.




Regardless of preventitive measures dog attacks are going to continue. No amount of government regulation is going to stop them. Therefore individuals must be allowed to apply their own justice to the situation.

[joab]

If you read the link I posted it discribes basicly the same thing but you do it by the hind legs and lift like a whellbarrow, it keeps the dog under more control and you get a better grip then the tail.I think the tail would be easier to grab.
It's sticking straight out begging to be used as a handle.

To grab the legs you would have to reach down into the animals biting zone usually with your face just a quick turn of the body to the animals face.

[Lupinus]

not if you come in right, two animals facing off are focused on each other. Move in behind it get down and grab quick and lift. If the dogs arn't grabable let them fight. And once you grab an animal by the tail if you dont get him completly off balance he can turn and get you much easier then the legs. And legs are very easy to hold, tails are not.

[DJJ]

deleted by me.

[Lupinus]

There is a distinct difference between a gun and a violent dog breed.

A gun requires someone to pick it up and use it. It has no brain, has no feelings, can not hurt someone without someone there to pull the trigger.

I violent dog on the other hand requires no help to attack. It has a brain, has feelings, and can hurt someone seriously with no human help.

Gun injuries require an irrisponsible owner. Dog attacks only require a dog to feel a threat reguardless if there is one or not and from there it can be damn near imposible to stop without serious injury.

[joab]

Regardless of preventitive measures dog attacks are going to continue. No amount of government regulation is going to stop them.Same way preventative measures have not cut down on automobile accidents. Same way safety regulations in the work place have not helped to decrease industrial accidents
Therefore individuals must be allowed to apply their own justice to the situation.There we go:rolleyes:

And legs are very easy to hold, tails are not.The guy I watched didn't have any problem at all.
And while the dogs may be concentrating on each other, they are also in a concentrated ball with legs wrapped in all kinds of weird positions.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/bugman/fightingmalpups.jpg
Legs have strong muscles that can be used to fight their way out of a hand hold, tails do not
But my comment was about a dog attacking a human.
If the person is standing the dog will likely be in a position that makes grabbing tails or legs easier.


In almost all dog attacks there is almost always some irresponsible act that can be traced back very easily to one of the humans involved

[Lupinus]

I've had a dog by the hind legs three times following whats on that link, one has never gotten around to nip me or gotten one leg loose let alone both, all three were dogs pretty intent on going at it and the other guy didn't loose hold either.

I have had several animals slip a grip to the tail and they wernt going at it. Fur tends to go twoards the tip of the tail making it easy to slide a tail free.

Did the guy have gloves of any sort on? Or maybe he just has a hell of a grip lol.

[Lupinus]

didn't see hte pic before posting, must not have loaded.

And in a situation like that you do one of two things. Let the dogs fight, much as you or your kids love fluffy im sure you love your fingers and limbs more.

Or notice one dogs legs are open? Grab its legs pull it back and the other dog will go for it opening its legs up for someone else to grab.

I will admit one thing, the links one person method requires some really big cookies and I might be a tad slow to try it lol

[joab]

Notice also that tail at full staff just begging to be made into a handle.
That photo was a split second in time. If you don't time your grab right you may find your self grabbing the end that you don't want to

Either way would work

And I'm not talking about grabbing the tip of the tail, I'm talking about down at the base with a two handed forceful grip and lift and backward sprint all at the same time

[lysander]

I've seen some comments on the owner's liability...

Like other states, Illinois regulates owners. The full text of the Animal Control Act can be found here (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1704&ChapAct=510%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=41&ChapterName=ANIMALS&ActName=Animal+Control+Act%2E). But basically it says that if the boys and the dad were trespassers...the owner might not be liable. Essentially...owner is liable so long as the bite victim did not provoke the dog, was peaceably conducting themselves and was not a trespasser. The legal questions for this owner will be 1) Provocation. 2) Trespass.

The Act also includes provisions for vicious and dangerous dogs...to include, enclosure, euthanasia, fines, etc.

The owner is on the hook for a misdemeanor if the dog is deemed dangerous and attacks someone, a felony if it kills someone.

From a strategic and tactical standpoint....it seems that at bare minimum a Dad might want to carry some pepper spray if he is walking kids door to door.

This would be a scary deal....one dog...I think I could handle physically....two dogs or more, I would want a pitchfork or something.

[joab]

"Enclosure" means a fence or structure of at least 6 feet in height, forming or causing an enclosure suitable to prevent the entry of young children, and suitable to confine a vicious dog in conjunction with other measures that may be taken by the owner or keeper, such as tethering of the vicious dog within the enclosure. The enclosure shall be securely enclosed and locked and designed with secure sides, top, and bottom and shall be designed to prevent the animal from escaping from the enclosure. If the enclosure is a room within a residence, it cannot have direct ingress from or egress to the outdoors unless it leads directly to an enclosed pen and the door must be locked. A vicious dog may be allowed to move about freely within the entire residence if it is muzzled at all times. I highlighted the parts I agree with, with enclosure and pen to include a fenced lot. I would extend this to all large breeds capable of inflicting serious injury on a person or domestic animal

Vicious dog" means a dog that, without justification, attacks a person and causes serious physical injury or death or any individual dog that has been found to be a "dangerous dog" upon 3 separate occasions. this dog should be put down

[Tokugawa]

As a 15 yearold I was charged by a big German shepard late at night, it came off it's yard, across the street and stopped about 10 feet away . Not another soul around, in the country and 2 am. I took out my folder, blade up and resigned myself to the fact I was going to be hurt really bad, but the dog was going to die. The plan was to try to sucker the dog into grabbing my left arm , and stick the knife in at it's balls and cut till I hit the ribcage, then just keep cutting in. I was scared bad but didn't see any other way to take the big dog. I started screaming at the top of my lungs at the dark house acoss the street-"get your dog or I'll use it's f*****g guts for clotheline!" It's pretty funny now, I don't have the faintest idea why I said that, but all the lights came on and this guy comes running out of the house in his bathrobe, hollering at the dog. All was resolved peacefully, to my great relief- I was shaking like crazy.

[Warren]

Same way preventative measures have not cut down on automobile accidents. Same way safety regulations in the work place have not helped to decrease industrial accidents
There we go:rolleyes:



Accidents still happen. They will always happen. :banghead:

Individuals have a right to get even with those that harm them.

[pauli]

dogs are the reason i've got a loaded shotgun in the house. not too worried about people around here - but a dog attack at the school bus stops outside my house does concern me.

[Lupinus]

main reason my uncle got a gun was he lives in the country and there are some wild dogs around.

[joab]

Accidents still happen. They will always happenWhere have I refuted this:banghead:

Do you deny that safety regulations have decreased the number and severity of injuries caused by auto and work place accidents

Individuals have a right to get even with those that harm them.And this is somehow more important than taking measures to prevent that harm?
Or is it just that getting even is so much more macho.

dogs are the reason i've got a loaded shotgun in the house. not too worried about people around here - but a dog attack at the school bus stops outside my house does concern me.If a dog is attacking a small child how much good is a shotgun going to be.

[joab]

I took out my folder, blade up and resigned myself to the fact I was going to be hurt really bad, but the dog was going to die. The plan was to try to sucker the dog into grabbing my left arm , and stick the knife in at it's balls and cut till I hit the ribcage,If you know that you are going to be bit anyway it makes sense to choose what he gets to bite

[Warren]

Where have I refuted this:banghead:

Do you deny that safety regulations have decreased the number and severity of injuries caused by auto and work place accidents

And this is somehow more important than taking measures to prevent that harm?
Or is it just that getting even is so much more macho.


The value of gov regulations has not been proven. A persuasive argument that they do more harm than good can (and has, elsewhere) be made. Though this is not the thread or the forum for that.


It is not about "macho" it is about the natural right of a harmed individual to get retribution. It need not be physical, it could be financial. It is up to the harmed person to decide which route to take.

[joab]

It is not about "macho" it is about the natural right of a harmed individual to get retribution. It need not be physical, it could be financial. It is up to the harmed person to decide which route to take.well you would at least have that satisfaction every time you look at your child's ruined face.
And when you go into their room to comfort them from the trauma induced nightmare you can console them by telling them how big the cash award will be.


If you have a large dog you must have a suitable fenced enclosure.
If you do not have a suitable fenced enclosure you would be subject to the same criminal penalties as you would if your dog bites someone now.

Tell me how that will not work or how it some how violates anybodys rights.
Tell me how imposing bans or shooting it out with dogs in the neighborhood is a better option

[silverlance]

i think that the cali-crap foisted on gun owners would be put to better use on dog owners. i own a relatively large dog, about 80lbs, and i would totally understand the gov making me take a "class" like HSC and making me prove that i have proper enclosures of at least 4" in height all around.

I should also have to prove an immunization record, and i should also be required to "chip" the dog (for many, many, reasons).

then again, maybe i am required to do all these things, but since my dog is a rescue, i don't have any idea. hehe.


Ps: i already do all these things; any dog of mine that bites anyone innocent will be a dead dog by sunset, however much i love that dog.

[Warren]

well you would at least have that satisfaction every time you look at your child's ruined face.
And when you go into their room to comfort them from the trauma induced nightmare you can console them by telling them how big the cash award will be.


If you have a large dog you must have a suitable fenced enclosure.
If you do not have a suitable fenced enclosure you would be subject to the same criminal penalties as you would if your dog bites someone now.

Tell me how that will not work or how it some how violates anybodys rights.
Tell me how imposing bans or shooting it out with dogs in the neighborhood is a better option


Shooting it out WITH dogs? Damn, that is a tough neighborhood.

My way means that there is less gov involvement, which is always a plus.


And why do you assume my child will be injured or that your fencing regs will prevent it?

Do we agree that if your methods fail to stop an attack I have the right to go after the dog owner?

BTW (and OT) this is a link (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html) to a different view on traffic regs.

[Biker]

I kinda glanced through this thread and I havta call BS on the genetic thing. A dog will conduct itself as it is trained, and the burden falls on the owner. A pit is no more a 'assault dog' than is a AR-15 a assault rifle.
Incidentally, I've never owned a pit or a rotty, but I know dogs. I can train a poodle to be a killer or turn a pit into a pussycat. It has little to do with the breed.
Biker

[Warren]

i think that the cali-crap foisted on gun owners would be put to better use on dog owners. i own a relatively large dog, about 80lbs, and i would totally understand the gov making me take a "class" like HSC and making me prove that i have proper enclosures of at least 4" in height all around.

I should also have to prove an immunization record, and i should also be required to "chip" the dog (for many, many, reasons).

then again, maybe i am required to do all these things, but since my dog is a rescue, i don't have any idea. hehe.

Giving gov more rules to enforce is not the answer.

Ps: i already do all these things; any dog of mine that bites anyone innocent will be a dead dog by sunset, however much i love that dog.

Good first step. Be prepared to shell out some cash as well.

[Lupinus]

I kinda glanced through this thread and I havta call BS on the genetic thing. A dog will conduct itself as it is trained, and the burden falls on the owner. A pit is no more a 'assault dog' than is a AR-15 a assault rifle.
Incidentally, I've never owned a pit or a rotty, but I know dogs. I can train a poodle to be a killer or turn a pit into a pussycat. It has little to do with the breed.
Biker
Nothing to do with genetics? That Im sorry my friend is BS. When you breed an animal for aggressivness that is genetic plain and simple. And animal that has had aggressivness bred into it is a GENETIC trait. It has zero to do with training in some cases. Sure any dog can be trained to attack, but which takes to it more naturally?

[joab]

And why do you assume my child will be injured or that your fencing regs will prevent it? History shows that the majority of dog attacks involve dogs that have gotten free or children have had too easy access to where the dogs are.

A proper fence would have prevented this attack, or do you dispute that

Do we agree that if your methods fail to stop an attack I have the right to go after the dog ownerwhere have I suggested otherwise.
If you read my post responding to another states vicious dog rules you will see that my views are much less tolerant.

Do you deny that keeping dogs in proper enclosures greatly lessens if not eliminates the possibility of them attacking an innocent party.

Do you dispute that securing the fence from the outside as well as inside will prevent children from inadvertently entering the dogs enclosure/territory

I have many more conditions that would put on owners of large dogs in my kingdom, the fence is one of the most minor

[Warren]

History shows that the majority of dog attacks involve dogs that have gotten free or children have had too easy access to where the dogs are.

A proper fence would have prevented this attack, or do you dispute that







Do you deny that keeping dogs in proper enclosures greatly lessens if not eliminates the possibility of them attacking an innocent party.

Do you dispute that securing the fence from the outside as well as inside will prevent children from inadvertently entering the dogs enclosure/territory

No times 3. Need it be by government mandate? Is there a better way?


I have many more conditions that would put on owners of large dogs in my kingdom, the fence is one of the most minor

Your property, your rules.

the problem is this mixture of commons and private property that we have. If it was all private property many of these prblems would disappear.

[ziadel]

wow, theres some really ignorant people on this board...


:rolleyes:

[JeepDriver]

Crap like that is why there is a loaded Glock/Sig in my night stand and close by at all times.

If that were my wife, niece/nephew or (if I had one) child, there would be no doubt what would happen.

[rem]

"Only good Pit Bull is a dead one."

"I hate pitbulls."

"I will admit tho I have little or no wish to see such dogs - anywhere."

"They are usless animals bred for nothing more then to kill."

"only good use is in soups and stews..."

ad nauseam

Good thing none of you people run things. Makes me sick. Sounds exactly like those ignorant Brady fools. :barf:

[joab]

I kinda glanced through this thread and I havta call BS on the genetic thing. A dog will conduct itself as it is trained, and the burden falls on the owner. A pit is no more a 'assault dog' than is a AR-15 a assault rifle.
Incidentally, I've never owned a pit or a rotty, but I know dogs. I can train a poodle to be a killer or turn a pit into a pussycat. It has little to do with the breed.Yes and no

Throw a ball a just about any lab you come across, he will chase it and bring it back whether he has been trained or not.

Ever notice how people generally regard chihuahuas as spawns of Satan it's because almost all of them have nasty attitudes.

Most of my customers over the years have had dogs, and since most of them live in neighborhoods like Isleworth and Bayhill they have pure breds.

I can almost judge how a dog will act by the breed.
I am more worried sbout Cockers than any other breed because I've been bitten by them more than any other breed

Pits can be trained to be aggressive towards humans and the problem with that is for centuries or posibly just decades, only alphas were bred.

When you have a large alpha dog that has been taught, contrary to it's breeding, to be human aggressive it will just as likely bite you or the other human members of the pack as fast as it will attack outsider animals or humans that it sees as invaders

Pits are not good guard dogs, they have no off switch and they are too terriotorial.
Once the fight has started they will do every thing in their power to end it their way.

[oneshooter]

In my mind a Pit bull dog is a time bomb waiting to go off, and nobody knows when. With this in mind I will not let my children around them. If one hurts my child it will DIE, and the owner will never see the way out of the trouble he will have.:evil:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[joab]

Need it be by government mandate? Is there a better way?
The next falling star you see make a wish that every one will take responsibility for their actions and the actions of their animals.
let me know how it works out.

you rail against my suggestions of government involvement in enforcing responsible dog ownership but then you talk of using the government courts to penalize the person who failed to use those same minimal precautions.

And some, not sure if it was you, suggest government jail time for violating government laws violated by their dogs actions, some again even suggest stronger government laws to penalized the owners

it's all proaction versus reaction.
The very definition of reaction means you failed to fully anticipate and safeguard against the action

[LAR-15]

I own a pitbull and two other dogs. :evil:

However if someone shoots my pit , a 4 month old mange weakened puppy, they will be shot at back. I found it along the road. Heck my brother found one of my other dogs along the road.

Why is it people in this thread posture like vigilantes claiming they'll go around at night and kill any dog they don't like within a 500 mile radius of their house??

And kill the owner's too?

[LAR-15]

Nevermind.

[joab]

If one hurts my child it will DIE, and the owner will never see the way out of the trouble he will have.This brings up something that is interesting to me.
What if it is found that your child is at fault?

If he had been taunting the dog for days or even weeks and this day he pissed the dog off enough to break through it's enclosure.

Or if your child threw a ball into the yard and decided that he could out run the dog.

What if your child is hanging out with the stupid fat girl and her brother from down the street .
Even though the dog's owner has put up a separate gate to lock the dog in the now separated back yard, because he caught the little bitch throwing rocks at the dog a few days after he caught her nitwitted brother trying to hit the dog with a mop handle by standing on a bucket and reaching over the fence to swing at the dog.
Now they decide to trespass on the next door neighbors yard in order to throw eggs at the dog while the brother stands on a bucket trying to hit the dog with a now shorter mop handle
They're doing all this after the owner has gone to talk to the parents of the children and also the police.
If the dogs gets a hold of one of them who's fault is it?
Are you still coming down to my house to kill my dog?
are you expecting me not to shoot back?
Just thought I would put that last one in there to get in on the testosteronefest

[P95Carry]

Hey!!! As Pax mentioned earlier - strategies and tactics is the deal primarily.

As ever, inevitably it seems - things get heated on Pit/dog threads and this is going the way of most. There are strong feelings on both sides but - only so much need be aired here.

Keep it cool or the thread will close.

[LAR-15]

Joab,

Quit making sense.

Next thing you'll know they will want to ban white-tailed deer because one might jump through their child's bedroom window and go wild.

Or coyotes (a type of DOG) because they might drag little kids off into the brush and eat them.

[onerifle]

It amazes me how much misinformation is floating around about the breed.
It's as if some of you were reading press releases written by Sarah Brady... :rolleyes:



1). Pitbulls need not be 'trained' to fight, no matter how much some choose to believe otherwise. Some dogs are animal aggressive at an early age, some after adulthood, some never become animal aggressive, and some will only become aggressive in response to aggression by another animal. I have seen puppies go after adult dogs at the age of four weeks. My dog only showed an inclination to go after larger dogs, never my daughter's cats, and not once did she ever show any aggression toward people in nearly 16 years. She was a awful guard dog, but an unfailingly loyal part of the family.

2).There is zero correlation between a dog's aggression toward animals, and a dog's aggression toward humans. Trust me- the dogs know the difference. It's a shame some people cannot.

3). Pitbulls have been bred to fight for at least a couple hundred years. Until they became the 'canine du jour' in inner cities and general ne'er do wells, they were never bred to be aggressive toward people- they were not bred that way since a fighting dog that showed any aggression toward people was at least, a liability, at worst, a danger to those handling them. People aggressive dogs were put down immmediately, even if they were good "pit" dogs.

4). The majority of what passes for "pitbulls" nowadays is a shadow of a once great breed. In the past, most dogs would run 45-50 pounds, tops, with big dogs running near 60. Where do you think the cliche "it ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" got coined? Since the breed has been perverted by gangstas, 60-70 pound dogs are the norm, with some weighing over 100 pounds. Many, if not most, show aggression toward people.

All to impress the 'homies'.

The dogs that are responsible for unprovoked attacks on people, especially kids, are pitbulls only in name.

Any dog that initiates an unprovoked attack on a human should be confined. Any breed capable of causing grave harm to to a human being that initiates an unprovoked attack on a human being should be terminated with extreme prejudice.

The "let me offer my weak arm" scenario is useless with pitbulls, or any other large breed that has some physical strength. If a large dog, pitbull or otherwise gets a good hold on your arm, you are in serious trouble.

In addition to my ccw, I carry Fox Labs OC. I am prepared to use either in response to an unprovoked canine attack.

I find this thread to be remarkably similar in tone to a "hunting rifle" vs. "assault rifle" thread....:fire:

[Lupinus]

However if someone shoots my pit , a 4 month old mange weakened puppy, they will be shot at back. I found it along the road. Heck my brother found one of my other dogs along the road.
I don't care how old it is it comes at my family in a threatning manner its time on this planet is cut short, if it doesn't I have no problems with it.

[LAR-15]

So you would not shoot a threatening Norweigian elk hound or threatening beagle?

WTF?

:confused:

Just threatening pitbulls?

And would you shoot it if it was on a leash and not threatening?

Some folks in this thread sound like they would.

[Lupinus]

Did I say I would only shoot a pitbull? Where the heck did I single out pitbulls as being the only threatning dog I'd send off to the great beyond?

Only thing I singled pitbulls (along with rotties and dobermans) out for were as an aggressive breed with genetic aggresivness, not the only ones I would shoot. I don't care if it is a fluffy little bunny rabbit or a llama, if it attacks or makes a pretty damn good impression it is about to attack me or mine its time on this earth is being cut short.

If it is not threatning? No of course not I think they are a usless breed and anyone who owns them is asking for what has a decent probablity of coming for them. Never said I plan to buy some bulk ammo and drive around shooting pitbulls on sight. And leash or no leash doesn't particuarly matter. If the person can handle it MAYBE, but if it snaps at me within the distence of my boot its getting a steel too or a bullet to the head.

[boots]

it's the chihuahuas that i detest. barks at everything, and barks at nothing, they don't stop barking. insecure personalities contribute to this, i guess. overgrown rats, good for nothing, and the owners don't do anything about the barking because it's their dogs, and they are used to it.

did i mention that i hate chihuahuas?

[Lupinus]

LOL boots.

I always wanted one of thsoe and name him spike. Why? I don't know something about onea them named spike just makes me laugh.

[onerifle]

I forgot to ask- why is it when it's a breed other than a pitbull, it's an "attack", but when it's the fearsome pitbull- it's a "rampage"??? :barf:

[LAR-15]

Good point

[boots]

the issue is not clear cut. both sides make excellent points. too much government control is bad, but not enough government control could let negligent owners get away with murder. what is that called?.... a paradox? i have seen a lot of pitbulls in my day, as i live in the "hood", and there are more mean ones than nice ones. i'm not saying that pits are genetically predisposed to being aggressive, but in reality, it seems that way. i believe that the solution to this problem exists, but banning all pits for the behavior of some, is kind of like adopting the brady/feinstein view towards firearms. but then i realize that guns and dogs are two totally different things. what is my point?... i don't really know, i'm just summing up my thoughts relevant to this thread.


and did i mention i hate chihuahuas? i should add that to my sig line.

[silverlance]

1. Government, under election from the populace, should rightfully DEMAND that owners of ANY dog, even a 6" licks-its-own-balls-all-day nit:
* KNOW how to raise dogs - feeding, play, how-to care, etc
* be EQUIPPED to raise dogs - space, enclosure, harness & leash, etc
* UNDERSTAND consequences of irresponsible ownership - liability, etc

2. People should be READY to deal with dogs - ANY DOGS - that have been irresponsibly raised, or "gone berserk" - just as people should be READY to deal with people who have been equally irresponsibly raised, or "gone berserk". If that same 6" ball-licker tries to bite me, I will kick it so hard that they'll need a plunger to remove the dent. If it tries to bite my toddler, I will kick it likewise, just three or four times more. Replace ball-licker with pitt, rott, lab, retriever, shep, st.bernard, etc ... and boot with equally escalating disciplinary action.

3. Anyone who harasses a dog should be SUBJECT to prosecution the same way that anyone who vandalizes someone's vehicle would be prosecuted for damages. (You don't shoot someone who throws a rock at your dog. You kick arse, then sue their pants off.)

Did I leave anything out?

I own two dogs, a Jindo (large) and a Scot Terrier (tiny and very high-pitched). I would not hesitate to apply the above to myself and my dogs. As for people who say, "no gov intervention" - gov taking responsibility for punishing idiots and loose dog-cannons is much preferable to my having to do it myself.

[boots]

basically, make the owner accountable for the dog's actions... if you can't control it, why be able to own it? that's precisely the reason that people takes tests to prove that they can handle a car.

[c_yeager]

I kinda glanced through this thread and I havta call BS on the genetic thing. A dog will conduct itself as it is trained, and the burden falls on the owner. A pit is no more a 'assault dog' than is a AR-15 a assault rifle.
Incidentally, I've never owned a pit or a rotty, but I know dogs. I can train a poodle to be a killer or turn a pit into a pussycat. It has little to do with the breed.
Biker

I gotta say that genetics definatly play a role in behavior. Find an old shepard breed that has never been trained how to herd anything in its life. Look it right in the eye and run away, see what it does. Its even funnier to watch when they try to keep wandering children around their folks.

[Devon]

I have one of those awful pitbulls. I really should keep it to myself but I can't. I walk her almost daily, on a leash. When we walk we stop to visit friends, human and animal. She sleeps in my bed, plays with our little dog and my sons cat. Our backyard has a 6' privacy fence with a gate that can only be opened from the inside. I've taken her to my sons school to pick him up and made new friends. She's food aggressive, don't try to take my dinner either. I guess I'm one of those white trash, pitbull / gun owning rednecks some people fear. Go ahead, kick my dog, I bite back, she won't. This June while we were out walking downtown Lawrence, Ks. a lady tried to provoke my dog, it didn't work, and I wasn't disappointed in my dog. I felt sorry for the lady, she might provoke someone else's dog someday.

Take care of your dog, treat it right and with respect, you'll have no problems. The folks that don't do so are causing all of this hate & discontent.

Now, as for the strategy, I've found that the best way to break off a dog attack is to grab the dog's tounge with your strong hand and hang on. If you're going to get bitten, you might as well choose where rather than the dog. Takes all the fight right out of them and will, if done long enough, suffocate them. I learned that when a Doberman came at me and I have a couple of small scars as a reminder. I've never been bitten badly by any other dog than a German shephard, took a chunk out of my right calf. Heck, I was 10 years old & hadn't learned these lessons yet & deserved what I got. I was in it's yard.

Mods, sorry for the rant

Devon

[Tokugawa]

I have grudge against dobies, pit bulls or any otherdog. I will admit, is is pretty strange to hear of a dog that has lived with people for years with no problem, then one day freaks out and chews off a face or two. Hmmmmm...

[Tokugawa]

Sorry, the above should read, "I have NO grudge"

[onerifle]

Devon- good post.

[Devon]

Thank you onerifle.

[oneshooter]

To All,
The bottom line to me is that my/anybodys children are more important to me than ANY animal. If worse comes to worse then the animal looses. The rest can be worked out after.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[LawDog]

I think we're done with this one.

LawDog