Curio and Relic Question....again..


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cslinger
April 1, 2003, 03:00 PM
Say you own a non C&R firearm, say an M1 Garand that was made 48 years ago or some such.

Does this have to be logged into your bond book when it turns 50 years old since it technically becomes a C&R firearm at that point? I would assume it does.

Thanks
Chris

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Chipperman
April 1, 2003, 03:03 PM
No. You only have to list C&R guns that you acquire since you've had the C&R license.

cslinger
April 1, 2003, 03:09 PM
technically if I have the license in affect and I have a firearm that becomes C&R elligible in my personal collection doesn't that technically count as acquiring a C&R firearm while I have the license?

Thanks again
Chris

ajacobs
April 1, 2003, 03:15 PM
acquiring = buying

You only need to log it when you buy it with your liscence. Now I would thing that if it becomes C&R eligible and you decide to sell it you can log it into your book listing yourself as the sourse and dispose of it. You would only need to do this if you are shipping out of state.

Chipperman
April 1, 2003, 03:17 PM
You should log any C&R guns you acquire when you have a C&R license, even if they are not acquired using the license.

BenW
April 1, 2003, 04:04 PM
doesn't that technically count as acquiring a C&R firearm while I have the license?
No. You acquired the firearm before you had a license. The fact that it becomes C&R while in your possession is not part of the definition of "acquiring". You would in fact have to enter it into your log if you sold it after it hit the 50 year mark. Otherwise it's just like any C&R you owned prior to your license. They were ALREADY C&Rs, but you didn't have to record them as acquisitions when your license arrived, you just have to record their disposition when you sell them.

At least that's my interpretation of the regs. A call or email to the ATF would give you a more legally valid answer than us schmucks here though :)

goon
April 1, 2003, 05:01 PM
You should log any C&R guns you acquire when you have a C&R license, even if they are not acquired using the license.


Not me.
I will happily show the ATF the guns that I bought with my C&R, since that is one of the terms of having a C&R, but they can keep their mitts off of the rest.
The way I look at it, is that if I buy a Kimber 45 at a local dealer, then that is no different than buying an M-48 at that dealer. AFAIK, I only have to log in the guns that I buy using the license, and that is exactly what I do.
The point is academic, since I have bought all of my current C&R's with the license, but I still feel that it is none of their business.

RUT
April 1, 2003, 05:30 PM
>>Not me.
I will happily show the ATF the guns that I bought with my C&R, since that is one of the terms of having a C&R, but they can keep their mitts off of the rest.<<

I agree with Goon. Only those I acquire using my C&R get logged in my book.

BenW
April 1, 2003, 07:29 PM
Sorry goon and RUT, but stolen off the Parallax site , the following ATF letters refute your thesis:

-------------
From a 1996 BATF letter signed by Charles Bartlett, Acting Chief, Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch.
I have the letter.

"If, after acquiring your license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collector's license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records."

Another BATF letter addressing this issue:

Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
F: PD: FB: FT: nvc
AUG 10 1998

(inside address redacted)

Dear Mr. (redacted):

This is in response to your letter dated July 20, 1998, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In your letter, you have inquired whether it is necessary to record the transfer of a curio or relic firearm in your acquisition and disposition records.

Please be advised that, in accordance with 27 CFR [S] 178.125 (g), a licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. Therefore, regardless of whether the curio or relic firearm was obtained using your collector's license, the acquisition must be entered into your records upon receipt. Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your request. Should you require additional information or have any questions, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
(initialed) KRD
for Christopher M. Cuyler
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

goon
April 1, 2003, 08:08 PM
If that is the case, they can have it back!
...right after I get another M-39 Finn. :D
Like I said, I haven't bought any C&R's through regular sales, nor do I intend to.
Too much mark-up for the middleman...
But still, as a matter of principle, what business is it of theirs if I buy a dozen Mausers from a dealer?
I think that they make this stuff up as they go, but then again, haven't they always?

Chipperman
April 1, 2003, 09:21 PM
If you buy them thru a dealer the ATF is gonna know you have them anyway, so why not enter them in your book?

goon
April 1, 2003, 10:54 PM
It is a matter of principle.
If you buy a Penthouse with your credit card, they could figure that one out too. But that doesn't mean that you should have to notify the police every time you feel the need to buy one.
Truth be told, they really have no right to monitor any of our purchases anyway that you go about it, firearms or otherwise.
But, I knew when I applied for the C&R that I could possibly be required to show them to the ATF someday. That is the price of being able to buy neat old guns through the mail.
But, that doesn't mean that it is right.
It isn't.
I just put up with it because it is worth it to me to jump through their hoops.
Like the whole Full-Auto debate.
There are those who say that I don't need one, and they are right. I really don't need one.
But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to go to the local gunshop and buy one just like I could buy a 30-30.
It isn't right, but it is the way that it is.

Chipperman
April 2, 2003, 07:44 AM
I won't argue the principle with you. We're preaching to the choir here.

The bottom line is that you must list any C&R guns you get in the log, whether or not you use the C&R to get them.

Thanks to BenW for the link to the letter.

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