[MMW]

Welcome :)

Is here such a person, who uses 4" N-frame revolver full of .44 Magnum for self-defence and maybe CCW? :)

How long does it take to recover between shots in Magnum .44 self defence load [I mean: not typical, heavy hunting load]?

How much longer is recovery time comparing to 125 grans .357 Magnum from L-frame stainless 4" revolver?

What loads in .44 Magnum do you reccomend for self-defence [if they exist].

Best wishes,

Michael

[.45&TKD]

I don't have a .44 mag yet, but I am shopping for a S&W Model 29 in 4 inch. I would just load it with .44 specials for self defence, unless I was defending against a bear attack.

[Wedge]

Hi Michael,

Welcome to THR. My wife is a first generation American (her father is from near Krakow).

Time between shots will be longer than with a light .357 magnum. Full house .44 Magnum's aren't really necessary since a .44 Special with good bullets will do a fine job for self defense without all the recoil or noise. The bullet is already starting out at 0.429", so that will lead to a decent sized wound. A decent self defense bullet will expand rapidly and reduce the risk of overpenetration. CCW is possible but probably not practical or comfortable (I have CCW'd a .45 Colt Blackhawk with 5.5" barrel on occasion as it was the only gun I had). A sturdy belt is a must.

What are the laws like in Poland regarding CCW and self-defense? My father-in-law has no experience with firearms, but he also left Poland in the 1960s and I would assume laws were quite strict when under Soviet rule.

[WT]

Yes. I know 2 former US Army Special Forces soldiers who use the .44 magnum for concealed carry and defense. I also know a New Jersey State Trooper who keeps one for home defense.

Certainly, the .44 magnum takes a little more effort for followup shots .... but with good shot placement, one doesn't need followup shots.

[SpookyPistolero]

Just to second things, the .44 special would be an exemplary defensive cartridge and it's what I'd load up if it's what I had for sd. The .44 mag can be a bit much without much good reason, and overpenetration is going to be a big concern.

[MMW]

As I wrote in another topic, laws are VERY, VERY STRICT. For typical citizen there is no possibility to get permission for self-defence gun. Even police officers have problem with permissions for off-duty guns. You have to be politician, VIP, or rich bussinesman who was attacked and robbed. No hollowpoints are allowed. Maximum caliber is .357 Magnum [no 45 ACP, 40 S&W etc]. Of course 357 Magnum without hollowpoints makes no sense.

Consequences of using weapon are terrible. Judges are often against you. Here in Poland we have no tradition having guns among citizens. Everyone looks on armed citizens as on bandits. Only bandits and police officers have guns, but police shots once a year, six shots from P-64 :D They are afraid of using weapon [mayve not all, but many of them].

That's why I asked so silly questions. I have no possibilities to get permission. And I don't have enough money to get sport shooting permission. But I'm very interested in handguns and terminal ballistic. I'm very curious if somebody knows exact differences [in seconds] in recovery after shots, especially .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum.

So what .44 Special loads are reccomended for 4" revolver self-defence? :) Do they mushrooms from from 4" tube?

[WT]

MMW - what you describe sounds like New Jersey. We have similar rules here.

Your questions are not silly. Feel free to ask anything about firearms.

[Mad Chemist]

I've had good luck with Speer Gold dots in .44spl. They somehow manage to give reliable expansion from a 1 1/2 snub revolver. Out of a 4" tube they should perform excellently. I don't know how widely available .44spl is in your area. If you can't find a decent spl load, you may have to go with a magnum with a lighter bullet(200-240gr). The lighter round will reduce muzzle-flip and out of the large revolver recoil shouldn't be too severe.

Sorry, I didn't see your post about the HP restrictions. Try light SWC,(semi-wadcutter) it won't expand but it will cut a big hole any they are very accurate.

BTW. if you do go with a lighter load from the mag revolver you'll need to punch some holes in paper with it first. The reduced muxxle flip will make the POI lower than a standard mag load.

[MMW]

MMW - what you describe sounds like New Jersey. We have similar rules here.

Your questions are not silly. Feel free to ask anything about firearms.

Thank you. That's a very kind of you :)

I'm not interested in guns because I'm afraid of sth. Simply gun theory is my hobby and I love look of revolvers. Maybe blued S&W with wood grip are not practical [corrosion, felt recoil of wood grips], but they are so beautiful :D Stainless with rubber grips aren't bad too ;) But my only gun is Sabre Red pepperspray against dogs :D

My dream is to check could I manage recoil of N-frame .44 Magnum - and there buy one ;)

[MMW]

I've had good luck with Speer Gold dots in .44spl. They somehow manage to give reliable expansion from a 1 1/2 snub revolver. Out of a 4" tube they should perform excellently. I don't know how widely available .44spl is in your area. If you can't find a decent spl load, you may have to go with a magnum with a lighter bullet(200-240gr). The lighter round will reduce muzzle-flip and out of the large revolver recoil shouldn't be too severe.

:D In my area people think that Tulskij Tokariev is best pistol in the world :D I'm from Poland. I'm theoretician only :(

But theoreticians also may ask questions, I hope ;)

[Wedge]

That explains why my father-in-law has absolutely no experience with firearms! If you ever get a chance to visit a country where you can try shooting by all means do so. I find handgun shooting the most enjoyable of all shooting sports.

I am sure someone here has timed themselves doing double-taps with the 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum. A SWAG would have me say that the .357 would be twice as fast than the .44.

A full bore hunting load from a .44 Magnum will not give you much chance for a follow up. While I regrettably have not shot a .44 Magnum I have shot some other rounds that are pretty closely matched ballistically (at least for a full bore hunting load), specifically some .45 Colt 300 gr. Cor-bons going about 1300fps. The gun would rotate about vertical (SA style, so it has the comfortable old west grips that rotate the wrists intsead of pushing straight back), and my arms would go up to about my head. I didn't fight the recoil...if you do that you tire yourself out.

When you get up to some of the really serious recoilers, like my friends .454 Casull, the effect is even more dramatic. I hope someone has some actual times for you.

[Fish Springs]

I have an S&W 629 Mountain Gun in 44 Magnum as a "carry piece" when I am in the woods or want more power w/o having to carry a 44 Marlin Guide Gun.

It is a hand full, but with either factory 180 grain loads or with hand loaded 250 grain SWC at @ 1000 FPS it is potent and portable.

http://tkcustom.com/moonclips/images/products/m629mtnfull.jpg

The recoil is managable and one can empty the cylinder, accurately in 5-6 seconds--a short barreled (SP

101) .357 can be emptied in 1/2 that time or better.

[MMW]

Thank you very much :) Your informations are extremely useful for me. Now I can imagine [only imagine] practical differences in shooting .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. I understand, why most people prefer .357 for selfdefence. 357 revolvers are smaller, lighter [L-frame comparing to N-frame], and shooting speed is approximately 2 times bigger in .357 comparing to "light" .44 Magnum [we can't even compare heavy hunting loads]. So one can buy for example Doubletapammo 125 grans .357 Magnum and has 7-shot [S&W 686P] of proven load - 2 times faster than Magnum .44.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.

Very interesting. Thank you again :)

[dasmi]

Welcome to THR.
Folks like yourself are always welcome in the US, should you ever get the inclination to move.

[Coronach]

:)

Welcome to THR. And by all means, if you ever make it to America, I'm sure one of us would be happy to take you to a range so you can test your theories. :)

Mike

[afasano]

Go ahead, make my day, and I've seen .38 slugs bounce off of windshields. :D ;) :cool: :eek:
How did I get to be a Senior member, it's do I get a break on coffee at McDonalds?

[Marshall]

Hell, if you hit 'em the first time you'll need no follow up shot. :evil:

[Standing Wolf]

Of late, my main carry gun has been a pre-agreement Smith & Wesson model 629 .44 magnum with a three-inch barrel. I've been carrying openly, concealed, and carelessly concealed about equally.

The .44 magnum round is harder to shoot accurately than the .357 magnum, primarily because recoil is considerably heavier. Most shooters do, indeed, need slightly longer to fire the second and subsequent shots—but the bigger caliber delivers a much greater likelihood that a single shot will be enough to stop a criminal.

I carry the .44 magnum, and keep a couple more .44 magnums with longer barrels around the house. It's not a caliber I'd recommend to everyone, but if you're willing to put in the range time, it's a fine cartridge.

[rbmcmjr]

I've always loved the "bulldog" concept and consider the snubby .44 magnum as the ultimate iteration of that idea. I have three. One has been modified by Weigand with barrel porting. One is at C&S even as we speak. One is in the safe waiting for a need. Silvertips are the ammo of choice.

Rick

[el44vaquero]

I have a S&W Model 29 in a 4 inch that I carry. Gets a little heavy in the shoulder rig, but well worth it. Second choice is a S&W .357 mag in a shoulder rig.

Light loads and practice. Followers aren't a problem.

[el44vaquero]

I have a S&W Model 29 in a 4 inch that I carry. Gets a little heavy in the shoulder rig, but well worth it. Second choice is a S&W .357 mag in a shoulder rig.

Light loads and practice. Followers aren't a problem.

[skag7]

I own 3 44mags All S&W 629 3", 329pd 4" & my hunting 629 8 3/8" out of my 629 8 3/8" I've shot 200 rnds every weekend for over 5 yrs now, I reload 240 gr Berrys fp with 22.3 Win 296 WLP, after shooting that many rnds its not to hard to recover for the next rnd, with any of my 44s, practice practice & practice:)

[BluesBear]

My favorite carry gun for the past 15 years has been my S&W 3" Model 29-3.

When shooting 180-200gr magnum loads I can recover faster than I can with .357 mag ammo from a 2".

I have found that the real secret to recovery with magnum revolvers is using the right grips. The bigger grips of the N-frame really help. There's just more to hang on to.

Before I got the 3" Model 29, I carried a 4" S&W Model 58 .41 Magnum.

[gunfan]

With modern, reduced loadings, the "big .44" can be a viable round for self-defense. I would heartily recommend the same load perameters defined for the early .41 Remington Magnum loads, (read: 200-210 grain SWCHP bullets from a 4" barrel between 950-1050 fps maximum.) This will provide the maximum effective power/penetration combination available from the cartridge, without compromising control. It worked well in 1964 with the introduction of the .41 Remington Magnum, and it should work today.

Scott

[Jet22]

Silvertips are the ammo of choice

I live on a river and test expansion by shooting down into the river at about 15 yards and comparing recovered bullets. I know, its not a good comparison to flesh and bones, but its an equal medium to compare expansion of different bullets in. I have had Remington 185 grain 45acp "flying ashtrays" look like they could be reloaded and shot again and have had Federal 180 grain 357 Maximums disintergrate and only leave a piece of lead the size of a no. 1 buckshot behind. Silvertips are unbelievable. All calibers expand violently. In the 45acp they will shed their jackets half the time. They even almost double in size when shot in the 380acp. I have had good luck with the Remington Golden Saber also, but velocity has to be regulated to get desired results with these bullets. Shooting the 125 grain 38 Special Golden Saber above 1100fps will cause it to disinigrate. Shooting the 125 grain 357 Golden Saber under 1000 fps will cause little or no expantion. Bullets like the Speer Gold Dot, Federal Hydra-Shock, and Hornady XPT expand well also. Other lesser hollow points don't work as well. You get what you pay for. For non hollow points, I like the 168 Grain Lyman (358429) or 240 grain (429421) hard cast using linotype. As pointed out in an earlier post, it will go through and leave a good hole. What was not said is that the large flat nose will send out a shock wave and damage a lot of tissue around the wound channel. I shot a deer through the heart at close range (20 yards) with the 358429 and had the stomach explode without damaging the diaphram. Now thats a shock wave!! Of course, overpenetration is a problem. I have never recovered a 357 bullet shot through the heart or lungs of a deer. I did have the above mentioned Federal 357 Maximum bullet explode and not exit with an 80 yard shot. I call that a bullet failure for game hunting but it might be perfect performance for self defense. It was a spine shot and knocked the deer off its feet, so I didn't need tracking blood anyway.

Getting back to your 44 question, I have a 4" 44 Smith thats been Magnaported. The recoil is not any different than a 357 4" with full loads. I am not recoil sensitive, so its tough to tell but I can empty the 44 just as fast as the 357. I have an 8" Smith 44 and its not too hard to shoot fast, but is harder to control than the Magnaported gun. I also have a 10" octagon Contender 44 mag barrel and thats a different storie. I have cronographed 300 grain Sierras at 1600FPS and in the light octagon barrel and that will definently wake you up!!! I don't shoot this load in the Smiths. It would be too hard on the gun. The bullet weight would definetly add to the recovery time if you wanted to shoot it quickly.

I also have a 4" Smith 44 Special. It is a little faster to shoot but my hot loads are only about 950fps with this gun. Its more like a 4" 38
Special to shoot than a 4" 44 mag.

The worst kicking 44 Mag I ever owned was a 7 1/2" Ruger Flattop. All the gun writers aways said how bad the Flattops kicked. I aways thought they were a bunch of whiners untill I owned one. When you shoot it, your middle finger is resting on the back of the trigger guard. when it kicks, its just like hitting your finger with a hammer. By the fifth shot you are just quivering. Like I said, I'm not recoil sensitive, but I'm not immune to pain! There would be no recovery from the first shot to make a second shot with this gun. The same might be said of my 4" Ruger 41 mag 3 screw, but there is no pain, and you can get off a second shot, just not quickly. This is due more to the grip style (and my HOT handloads) than anything else.

One thing I didn't mention is that all my Smiths have Hogues on them while all the Rugers have factory grips. Thats what fit my hands. This makes the Smiths a little more "user freindly", even though the Rugers fit my hand good.

If I had to use a 44 mag for self defense carry (I don't, I use a model 38 airweight cause guns are heavy to carry all day) with no hollow points, I would use a 240 grain 44 Keith style (Lyman 429421) hard cast at 800-900fps. A 215 grain (429215) might work as well or better, but I like the penetration of the 240 grain. If I could use a hollow point it would be a factory loaded 44 Special Silvertip load or Federal Hydra-Shock. I doubt you would need a second shot with any of these loads. For deer and around home field use I like a maximum load of 2400 or H110 with a hard cast 429421. I know where they hit at 100 yards (or more) and they leave one hell of a blood trail!!!

[mete]

I would agree that for non HP the best would be a 240 gr semiwadcutter at 900-1000 fps. I use 249 LSWCHPs. 44 special loads are a good option for HPs like the Win Silvertips and soon the Corbon DPX. ......As far as Poland is concerned , you should all read how a few people armed only with pistols changed the entire German strategy in the Warsaw ghetto in WWII !!!!

[MMW]

Your posts are impressive :D

As far as I understand, many of you prefer lighter Special loads or handloaded lightly Magnum loads. But I'm afraid, that Special loads may not mushroom from 4" tube. Most of factory velocities are from 6,50" tube. What are your experiences, e. g. with wet newspapers. Did you test your Special loads for mushrooming from 4" or 3" barrel?

I've found some Magnum loads which could be useful for selfdefence. Gold Dot Short Barrel [200 grans], Federal Hydra Shock, Cor-Bon [165 grans], Winchester Silvertips [210 grans]. But IMHO only Gold Dot is modern design and expands reliably in 4-layers denim test. Other are not so consistent. What do you think?

And last question: is there any commonly accepted number of ft-lbs recoil, which is a limit to quick followup shots? Which is to much for self-defence for you: 10 ft-lbs, 15, 20 ft-lbs of recoil?

[Jet22]

(44) Special loads may not mushroom from 4" tube

It dosen't have to. Because it is a major diameter bullet, it will do lots of damage without mushrooming. Also, reread my comments on the effect of the semi-wadcutter bullet. That flat nose makes a hell of a shock wave.

But IMHO only Gold Dot is modern design and expands reliably in 4-layers denim test

I think the Silvertip would do quite well expanding. There starts to be a problem with unreliable penetration sooner or later with hollow points. This is where a semi-wadcutter may be more effective.

quick followup shots? Which is to much for self-defence for you

I believe a self defense gun has different requirements than a battle gun or a police gun. I am not looking to get in a firefight with a self defense carry gun...I am looking to get out of one. For home use I believe the only thing a defense pistol is good for is to get you to the shotgun. As for follow up shots, I am an old revolver shooter and like to make the first shot count. I even do most of my hunting with single shots (rifles and pistols). If I ever have to shoot in self defense it will be at close range and I will be using enough gun with the right bullets. If it happens to be a magnum round I doubt a second shot will be needed. If I do need to shoot again, I don't see it as a problem of speed. I think I read it in a post earlier...practice, practice, practice.:cool:

[gunfan]

The Semi Wadcutter was used in both the W-W and the Remington "police" loadings for the .41 Remington Magnum. These fared quite well in actual shootings. A load of this nature, (240-grain Semi Wadcutter @ 1000 fps) would serve you VERY well. It features,

a) Low recoil.
b) Excellent penetration.
c) A good "smack" from a realtively big meplat.
d) Quick follow-up shots. (Due to the low recoil.)
e) No lawyer in his right mind would challenge a load of this nature. "Your Honor, this cartridge was 'loaded down' to cause greater damage!" What average jury would believe that?:confused: :rolleyes: LOL! :D :evil:

Scott

[pezo]

) No lawyer in his right mind would challenge a load of this nature. "Your Honor, this cartridge was 'loaded down' to cause greater damage!" What average jury would believe that? LOL! Now a days who know's.

[Sam]

Not being able to find the M24 S&W that Ii wanted I used to carry a M29 when I lived up north. Always wore a coat and concealment wasn't really a problem. I generally downloaded to 1000 with the Lyman 419421.

I also used that gun to shoot pins, and usually used a heavier load (429421 at 1200fps) Recoil recovery time was never my problem, always had the piece back down before I could get traversed to the next pin. Times were a bit better than for my M15 because I didn't have to be as precise to get them off the table.
I am certain that in a fight I would never notice the recoil.
I have the M24 now so the 29 went South a long while ago. My load is a 429421 right at 1000 fps and it is a bit harder to control in the 24 than the 29 but not enough to make me carry a weaker gun. Only CCW it in winter becase this place doesn't have much coat weather but I do have it and the mag on my permit.

Sam

[mnrivrat]

.44 mag in a Taurus Tracker just recently joined my family . It is a small frame ( about the size of a K - L frame Smith) 5 shot with a ported 4 inch barrel. (stainless steel version)

It's my home defense gun and may be carried under coat in the winter. Recovery time with 44 Spl's is not a problem, and muzzle jump comparable to the 3 inch 357 mag I traded in on it when using magnum loads. I would guess the porting helps on the Taurus.

I use 165 grn 44 Spl Corbons for SD , and for now have been shooting 180 grn Remington magnum loads. The recoil is rather harsh with magnum loads out of this lighter frame gun, but still managable .

I think I will stick with 44 Spl's for normal SD use , but will see what the Corbon 165 grn 44 mag loads feel like.

I have not measured recovery time - to be honest there are so many variables that measuring may still be subjective in the end.