[wingman]

I'm curious as to how membes of this board see themselves, working class, middleclass, or other. Not asking for pay stubs but what really is middleclass.
I consider myself a member of the working poor group.:(






By Mark Trumbull, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Mon Nov 7, 3:00 AM ET



For all its strength, the current economic expansion is not boosting the American worker's paycheck.

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Wages have been rising nominally: Average pay rose 8 cents last month to $16.27 an hour, according to a government report Friday. That's not fast enough to counter inflation.

By one common measure, average pay for an hour's work has less purchasing power than it had four years ago - when the current growth cycle began.

It's a pattern of weak wage growth that's now several years old, but the trend has worsened in recent months. Wages for the most recent quarter were 2.3 percent lower, after inflation, than workers received a year before.

While energy costs are the most obvious culprit, other forces may be playing a role, from globalization and illegal immigration to the weakening of labor unions. Politicians, too, could share in the blame.

Experts differ on just how wide and deep the problem runs. But the disturbing implications are clear enough. America's proud heritage as a land where the standard of living rises like late-summer corn seems, to many, to be at risk.

Even the fact that budgets have grown tighter for many debt-laden families is a volatile issue for the nation politically and financially. And economists say that while the pay pinch affects a wide swath of occupations, the impact is hardest on those without college degrees.

"It's two different worlds," skilled and unskilled, says John Silvia, chief economist at Wachovia Corp. in Charlotte, N.C. "There's no way you can consider this one overall labor market."

Well-trained job seekers are in hot demand, he says. But the labor market is weak for those whose education ended in high school. In some cases, "weak" is an understatement.

The automotive industry, and the nation, got a shock a few weeks ago when Delphi Corp., a major auto-parts supplier, demanded that union workers take a gargantuan pay cut so the company can survive.

The airline industry, too, faces a period of intensive restructuring that is difficult for workers of all skill levels.

Pilots at Northwest Airlines last week approved a 24 percent temporary pay cut, to give the beleaguered airline breathing room while a new labor contract is negotiated.

In the grocery industry, the spread of Wal-Mart has had a similar pay-squeezing effect on some unionized supermarkets.

Nor is the challenge confined to the United States. Wage growth has been slowing in Europe and is tepid in Japan, as those regions work through a difficult restructuring of their economic base.

What these industrialized nations share is growing competition for lower wages, from factories in places like Portugal, Poland, and China.

US manufacturers have done remarkably well at responding to global competition by finding ways to make workers more productive.

Traditionally, rising productivity allows employers to raise wages without raising prices. Thus it holds the key to rising living standards in society.

But lately, wage growth has lagged behind fast-rising US productivity.

Several reasons, beyond the downward pressure of global competition, may be involved:

• The cost of benefits. Some employers have stopped offering health insurance, but those that do are spending more, and thus boosting overall compensation even though hourly wages aren't rising.

• Price-sensitive consumers. As energy costs rose, many companies didn't feel able to pass those costs along to customers. So they have to pay their oil bills by cutting costs elsewhere. Pay hikes get smaller.

• Government policies. Some researchers say a failure to crack down on illegal immigration - whether at the border or in the workplace - has depressed wages for the less skilled.

• Weak bargaining power. The decline of union membership in the private workforce has had a significant dampening effect on wages, some economists say.

"The auto and airline industry - these were some of the best jobs you could get," without a college degree, says Dean Baker, codirector of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington. Those unionized jobs were "a boost to wages for less-educated workers generally, because to some extent other industries had to compete for those workers."

Other economists counter that a more flexible, less unionized labor market has helped the US trounce its European peers in job creation. Americans spend less time unemployed, but their incomes have arguably suffered as a result.

The result of all these forces is an environment in which wages tend to rise at a glacial pace. And when inflation picks up, that means they don't rise at all in real terms.

Inflation has now reached a 5 percent pace. The upshot is that hourly earnings are effectively 2.3 percent below last year's level.

"The inflation bar is very high right now," says Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute. So even the 2.7 percent hourly earnings growth, from a year earlier, "doesn't get you over."

Assessing just how far wages are falling behind inflation can be tricky. The federal government gathers data in several regular surveys, from the Census Bureau to the several sets of data produced by the Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).

The results can vary. The numbers above, for example, come from a widely cited wage report, a BLS survey of nonfarm employers called "current employment statistics."

In this survey, hourly wages for nonsupervisory workers rose by a total of just 4.6 percent during the 24-year period from 1979 to 2003, a recent Labor Department study found.

Most other reports show larger gains, in part because they track a wider sample of workers or of income. And clearly, Americans have found the means to consume higher levels of goods and services during that period.

"It's not as bad as it gets painted," says Diana Furchtgott-Roth, an economist at the Hudson Institute. By broader measures of household finances, she notes, "income is rising in real terms."

Still, on the issue of real pay for an hour's work, none of the government surveys show wages rising by even 1 percent a year between 1979 and 2003.

What's the recipe for keeping wages on an upward path? Some economists point to conservative models, such as keeping taxes and regulation low to spur job creation. Others take a more left-leaning tack, calling for stronger labor unions and a boost to the minimum wage.

Experts on both sides often stress education as paving the way for individuals to boost their earnings in higher-level work.

They also focus on two areas - healthcare and energy - where inflation is eating away at spending power. "You either need wages to pick up or inflation to slow down," says Mr. Bernstein. "There may be a bit of both in coming months."

[neoncowboy]

I'm doing well enough that I can afford a career in aviation :)

[308win]

Our business is doing well enough that the banks still want to loan us money. Cash flow is a killer.

[lee n. field]

I'm curious as to how membes of this board see themselves, working class, middleclass, or other

"getting by".

[JeepDriver]

My standard of living is decreasing.

Both my wife and I work, but the was gas, energy, food and Insurance is going up we have less and less 'play' money.

We still do OK, but not as well as we could be if our pay rate increases along with everything else.

[Chad]

My wife and I have worked our asses off for 25 years, and we are finally reaping the benefits.
Inflation, gas prices, etc take a chunk...but I still manage a reasonable gun budget. :D

[dasmi]

I'm doing fine. Sometimes I struggle, sometimes I don't. I'm better off that most in the world, and probably most in the country. But in San Diego, I'm on the lower rung of the income ladder.

[pax]

Perennially broke, and getting worse because our five sons are now solidly within the "eats everything including the kitchen sink" phase.

pax

[Monkeyleg]

Ever since the World Trade Center attacks, it's been a struggle. My wife and I have been able to get by, but things that I once took for granted---dinner at a nice restaurant, a vacation, buying a new gun, etc.---have gone by the wayside.

I've been branching out beyond my core business (photography) to try to find other means of income. That means that I'm working much more. The problem is that, even in doing so, I'm making far less than I was even 4.5 years ago.

In talking with friends and neighbors, I find that some are falling behind, while others are doing just fine. And I can't find any rhyme or reason why friend "A" is going better or worse than friend "B."

[TOADMAN]

Retired Navy after thirty years. I now do contract work - spouse works - the kids are all over 21 years old but still need money.

[Atticus]

I'm Working Class. My wife is Middle Class. So, I guess WE are somewhere in between. The Gas Company will likely move us a down a notch, or at least keep us in place, this winter. But I can't complain too much at the moment. I feel bad for working class folks nowdays. In the 50's and 60's, even an "Al Bundy" could raise a family on a shoe salesman's income. Nowdays, Al and Peg, and the kids, and the dog could sell shoes all day long and not make ends meet.

[oneshooter]

Lost a job making $19(40hrs week 60miles from home), found one paying $17.85 (500miles away), left that one for one paying $15hr 58-65hrs a week and only 25miles from home. Working class and holding!!!:D

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Live Free Or Die]

I've recently taken a vow of poverty; my wife and I decided to start a family. :D

Seriously though, we're cutting back on all non-essential expenses, feverishly paying off all non-mortgage debt, and trying to see if we can live on just my salary so she can be a stay-at-home mom when the time comes. I'm willing to settle for the occasional SKS instead of AR-15 if it means my kids can have a full-time mom.

The fact that there's a good chance we'll be able to live on a single salary -- albeit quite modestly -- makes me feel like my lot in life is not worth complaining about.

[R.H. Lee]

I stay out debt and don't buy much consumer crap. I live comfortably, eat well and have two vehicles. I haven't worked since August, and life is good. :)

[sumpnz]

I would say solidly middle class. We can afford to have some fun (e.g. long trip to New Zealand over Christmas, but we have places to stay for free and a car to borrow, and that trip won't be repeated for another half dozen years) but its at the expense of other things like buying a new(er) car or as many guns as I'd like to buy.

I'm an engineer in the defense sector, so at least I know my job won't be going to India or Malayasia. My wife's still in college for Chem. Eng., so between her tuition and part-time daycare for our daughter (and eventually for our soon to be 2nd kid) we are seeing a squeeze on the budget. But once she graduates and starts working (about 3 more years at current pace) we'll be sitting pretty. Of course, that will also depend on how many more kids we have (and considering both weren't exactly planned who knows how many we'll end up with). But, I expect a combined income of at least $150k when she starts working.

[Colt46]

Sunk a lifetime of savings into a house in a nice neighborhood and despite blue collar pay have a pretty good standard of living in a really financially tough area to survive.

[Monkeyleg]

Live Free Or Die, sacrificing the "toys" to enable your wife to be at home with the kids is noble. You're lucky to be able to cut expenses that much, and I'm certain you'll see the rewards when your kids head off to school.

[444]

I can pretty much buy anything I want.
I am doing better than I ever even dreamed I would ever do.


That being said, my average two week paycheck shows me working close to 200 hours.

A lot of people tell me: "I wouldn't want to work that much", or "I don't want to spend that much time away from my family", or "I have to many other things to do: I can't spend that much time working".
I guess it never occured to them that I certainly don't want to work overtime: hell, I don't want to work at all. I have been doing this same thing for a hundred hours a week for over 20 years: yeah, I'm tired of it. Been tired of it. But, nobody is giving away money for nothing that I know about. I have no education. If I want to make the money, I got to work hard to get it.
And, I do.

I am going to retire at age 52.
Again, this is going to happen because I am going to make it happen.
The ball is in my court. I am not doing anything to derail my progress and doing everything to reach that goal.
I am doing it all without suing anybody, and without anyone else's income. What I got, I got myself.

[Old NFO]

My standard of living is decreasing.

Both my wife and I work, but the was gas, energy, food and Insurance is going up we have less and less 'play' money.

We still do OK, but not as well as we could be if our pay rate increases along with everything else.
+1 on JeepDriver... sigh....:banghead:

[Oleg Volk]

Can't get everything I want, do have everything I need. Trying to save a little and investing in business tools and connections for the future. My income seems to replate directly to the value I give to others, and to my work habits and organization. Both much improved and so have the attendant benefits.

To me, inflation seems to run about 15%/year on things I find useful. Also helps that I have neither kids nor an expensive harem to support.

[dmallind]

Middle to maybe edging into upper middle here. Not wealthy by any stretch but the usual nice house, nice cars and moderate play money of the double postgrad-educated earner family I guess.

Couldn't go out and write a check for a Mercedes out of petty cash or anything, but can essentially afford any normal expenditures with a modicum of planning and budgeting.

In other words I'm a very grateful product of 95% luck in conditions of birth/life opportunities, and 5% work on academics and career progression.

[GoRon]

My great grandparents came here with nothing.

My grandparents were working class south siders in Chicago.

I was raised in a solid middle class home.

My income is very solid upper middle class and if I were to marry a woman with a career that equaled my income I would consider us well off indeed. Not rich but well off.

There has not been a year since I started working where my income has gone down.
Most of my life I have worked with my father in our family business.

[f4t9r]

Middle classs at best
Its tuff at times , but I still got my guns for now

[Sindawe]

Single Income No Kids. Solid "Middle Class" for what its worth. I have the "toys" I want for the most part (HOA would object to the Quad .50 Cal AA gun I want for the common area :evil: ), and currently earn enough that I can pay my freaking taxes, stash away for a rainy day, pay the mortgage/utilities/my own health insurance and be able easily absorb the cost of a car payment. I have have enough to eat, as do the animals, and can cover some major medical for 'em if/when it comes up.

More $$$ would be nice, but its not really needed. I'm where I am due to NOT buying into the "Keeping up with the Jones" consumer mindset, and chosing to not have kids. My income is about 40% below what Salary.com thinks it should be for my field (SysAdmin), but I'm in a very small shop, don't have to worry about somebody sniffing around my urine, and nobody gives me a ration about having a long ponytail.

[boofus]

I'm debtor class. :o

[Tokugawa]

I'm doing OK for a kid who dropped out at 15. Have a nice home (my wife and I built it ourselves ,I.E. drove the nails) and a small biz we run. We arn't getting rich, but are comfy. Low debt load, older cars, etc. The scary thing is medical insurance. It keeps going up and up and we pay every nickel ourselves. It is a bit tough to go to the dentist and have to pony up over two grand for a root canal and a crown. (no, we don't have dental insurance, can't afford the premium.) Every thing we have we earned ourselves with the help of parents who taught us to work hard. Thank you Mom and Dad!

[backphil]

I've been to countries all over the world and I have to confess I'm a millionaire compared to most of the rest of the world.

It's all relative.

[Sindawe]

I've been to countries all over the world and I have to confess I'm a millionaire compared to most of the rest of the world.

It's all relative. +1

[Janitor]

We do pretty well, but I'm getting on in age, and it's been a long hard road to get here. Starting to reap the benefits of long careers (> 25 yrs) and long relationships (30 years & still on the first wife).

Bought two Smiths in the past week. :D

-

[Gordon Fink]

By Republican standards, my wife and I are poor and live partially on welfare. By Democratic standards, we are rich and should pay our share. I guess that puts us in the middle class.

Seriously, though, our cash flow is positive but just barely. Our wages have been stagnant for the last few years, but that hasn’t stopped our expenses from increasing. Discretionary income is nice. I miss it.

~G. Fink

[Biker]

Lost a 40k a year job a few years ago (big money in Idaho), outsourced partially and in-sourced the rest. We lost the contract, end of story. Getting by on 15k. No fun, but do-able. Thank you, Jorge Bush.
Biker

[Standing Wolf]

I've got enough money to go shooting and paint. I guess I'm doing well.

[beerslurpy]

These past 3 years have been awesome. Got my first house, have a positive net worth for the first time, even applying to law school this year.

The economy is picking up, because I have friends that are working after having difficulty for a long time.

The CA economy is still screwed tho.

[dpesec]

I've also been having a struggles since 2001. I don't see things getting better for a while, if ever. I still have about 15-20 years before I can retire. don't look too rosy.

[gc70]

I'm over the hill - that is, the financial hill. My wife stayed home to raise two sons while I worked and things were tight at times. Required expenditures dropped dramatically when the kids finished college and I have been surprised how our desire for consumer goods (other than guns :evil: ) has fallen off in recent years. In short, life is good for this sharecropper's grandson.

[peteinct]

Hi, I don't want to come across as some sort of cultist, but money isn't what makes you happy. Oh yeah, it helps and being poor sucks, BTDT, but there are so many things that are important and not about money at all.

As Americans our standard of living is so high compared to other parts of the world and our ancestors that we can't bitch at all. In general we have bigger houses, more cars, better education, travel more and have better health care. I went through central Mexico and am not suprised that people will go to great lengths to come here.

But even that skirts the point. I just was out with my wife and we had a great evening just a couple beers together with some good conversation. My dog is asleep at my feet. My brother's family made it through the tornado in Ill. with no damage.

I am a rich man.

pete

[frenchwrench]

I make the bank and my daughters college very happy.:cool:

[xd9fan]

I am lucky and blessed.....and we work for everything we get.....just wish the Federal Govt would "back off" and practise family kitchen table accounting!!

For some reason at the age of 12 I always knew that no matter what happens or how much money you dont think you have.....always always invest some of it. See www.ricedelman.com his cheap $20 "the truth about money" book is the best book I have read and I read a ???? load.
After our third boy(in as many years) will be born in Febuary the Wife will quit work (so we continue the no daycare thing) and we'll see......we'll make do.
Oh and she wants me to get cut:eek:

[zahc]

Not too bad for an undergrad.

I have no debt, truck is payed for, my split living expenses are trivial, no S.O., and my pizza delivery job allows a steady, though very very slow trickle of expensive toys.

Poverty level by income, I feel middle class through smart spending and modest tastes.:)

[Biker]

Hi, I don't want to come across as some sort of cultist, but money isn't what makes you happy. Oh yeah, it helps and being poor sucks, BTDT, but there are so many things that are important and not about money at all.

As Americans our standard of living is so high compared to other parts of the world and our ancestors that we can't bitch at all. In general we have bigger houses, more cars, better education, travel more and have better health care. I went through central Mexico and am not suprised that people will go to great lengths to come here.

But even that skirts the point. I just was out with my wife and we had a great evening just a couple beers together with some good conversation. My dog is asleep at my feet. My brother's family made it through the tornado in Ill. with no damage.


I am a rich man.

pete
Well Pete, here's to Ya. Can't put a price on that, can ya?
Biker

[grimjaw]

If I was still in Cleveland, OH, and was married w/kids, I'd be in the poor house. The costs of parking and gas alone would make my surplus income plummet.

But now I live in Washington state, where there's no state income tax. (compared to Cleveland's state AND city income taxes) I live within a one minute, low stress drive from work, groceries, fuel, and the post office (walking distance, basically). The only other mouth I've got to feed is the cat.

So I'm doing OK, but I'm not saving much. Health care costs eat that up.

jmm

[sumpnz]

Oh and she wants me to get cutDo it if you're OK with the concept and are sure you don't want more kids. I'm lucky in that I really do want more kids than my wife (2nd is due in late May). She's thinking 2 might be enough but is willing to go to 3. I'm really thinking 4-5 would be good (which is strange since I before the first I didn't particularly want any). It's nice to have leverage like that. If she's says she's done, she can get cut if she really want's to guarantee no more kids. With the advances in laproscopic (sp??) surgery, it's really not that significantly worse for the women anymore than for the men.

[cracked butt]

Wife and I both have jobs where we make about twice the stated average wage. She's salaried and works 60+ hours per week. I'm hourly, work 50+ hours per week and my company has pretty much unlimited overtime I could volunteer for available for the forseeable future. We have no debts except our mortgage, but we didn't mortgage ourselves to the hilt either.

The only thing I'm lacking is time. Money doesn't buy happiness and it certainly doesn't buy time. I think life was a lot more fun when I was making 1/2 as much and had a lot of free time.

[bratch]

Past four years of school have been good. The future looks good but the industry is very cyclical so who knows.

My degree is the highest paying undergrad at O.U. plus I'll get to stay in OK where the cost of living is LOW.

I'm doing pretty good and in May will be doing a lot better.

[Sharps Shooter]

We're doing okay. I'm not sure where the lines are, but I think my wife and I would fall into the "lower middle class" category. Like 444, I worked my rear end off for 30 years and I retired at 53. I'm 57 now. We're starting to understand very well what it feels like to be living on a fixed income while prices just keep on going up. Especiallly gas prices. Both my wife and I are in good health, we already own more hunting and camping equipment than we really need, and for 30 years we looked forward to the time when, come hunting season we would just throw everything in the truck and head for the hills for as long as we wanted to stay. We thought we wouldn't have to worry about how far we were going and we wouldn't have a deadline as to when we would have to be back. Well, with $3.00 per gallon gas this year, we ended doing our hunting in the same old places we use to hunt before I retired - less than 30 miles from home! But, we got our meat. So, like I said, we're doing okay.:)

[Scott F]

I was hurt on the job four years and one month ago. Lived two and a half years on $0.00 per month. If we were not debt free when I got hurt we would have lost everything. Hope it is over, we are waiting for a tiny settlement and help finding work since I can not go back to my trade. So. I would have to say that we are dirt poor and all of our savings have been spent.

[Art Eatman]

As an Old Retired Fart, I have more assets than income. But, I don't have any debt, and I'm not "eat up with the I wants".

During my working years, I was able to have fairly serious toys, but one at a time. I did some neat stuff; sporty-car racing, for instance, but most of it came from a lot of do-it-yourself effort. A lot of five-to-midnight, plus things like hustling at coinshows and gunshows on weekends.

I guess you could say middle class, but by virtue of a full-time day job and a lot of other work. The harder I worked, the luckier I got.

:), Art

[AnthonyRSS]

I am a student in ME living with my parents. I was given a scholarship to UAH, and I have a coop job in my field making more money than I am worth there. I have also been laying ceramic tile for 5 years, and I think I like blue collar better than the office...

I have no debts, and I spend too much money on guns.

The Lord is good to me.

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have, for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5

[el44vaquero]

Well, I keep the folks at Visa, Discover, and Mastercard in business. :banghead:

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've been to countries all over the world and I have to confess I'm a millionaire compared to most of the rest of the world.

It's all relative.
Ain't that the truth...




I'm just starting out, so I don't make much. I have more than enough to cover my true needs, and I have little interest in consumerism. A coupla guns, a good stereo, the public library, and my lovely girl provide all the entertainment I could ever need.

I have a sound education, no debt, and money in the bank/markets. If I stay smart, my investments will someday be able to cover all of my expenses. At that point I'll be "rich". But for the moment I'm living at the lowest end of middle class.

More importantly, I'm happy! I like my life and my lifestyle. I could happily live this way until I die. Isn't that the ultimate measure of "standard of living"??

[Zundfolge]

I have more money then I've ever had in my entire life however I'm married to a woman who is so tight with a buck I swear she can squeeze a dime between her thumb and index finger and 10 pennies fall out.

So I actually feel poorer then when I was young, single and living on Ramen and frozen corn.

:banghead:

[Koobuh]

I owe more to Sallie Mae than I make in a year. That's not counting the other debts I have accrued by starting a business (since closed). Gas prices have NOT been helpful in this regard.
It's all I can do to bring my used Jeep back up to spec (not much vital maintenance of ANY kind was done for it- should have made a lower offer) bit by bit every paycheck.
I'm still living at home, working for $9.50-11.00 an hour. :o

Not much on the horizon either. My college degree is vastly different from anything I have grown toward lately, and beyond my hobbies there are few things I really excel at.

Pretty much the couple-years out of college doldrums.

[beerslurpy]

I'm married to a woman who is so tight with a buck
Dude, like 99 percent of the male public is looking for a woman like that.

Most women are spend-crazy and dont know the value of a dollar. Most men are too, but I'm not looking to marry one, so it wont be a problem.

[solareclipse]

i would be doing much better if i didn't have to feed my gun habit.

[Capteddie]

UPPER MIDDLE CLASS

Driving the big boats makes the big bucks...

still...

I can't always get what I want, I can't always get what I want, but if I try some times, I just might find, I get what I need.:neener:

[Capteddie]

Don't Remember Where I Read This....

Q: Who Is Rich?

A: He Who Is Satisfied With What He Has.

[af1acura]

Active duty E-4 residing off base with no dependents. I'd say lower middle class.

[Barbara]

Perpetually broke. :)

On the other hand, I don't want or need a lot, so I'm good with it for the most part. The kids are fed, the house is warm and the dog seems happy.

[telewinz]

My wife is an RN, I'm a state employee. The house has been paid off for a number of years and the kids are all over 18. Life is good and we enjoy job security. We live better than our parents but their is always room for improvement:D

[farscott]

We are doing fairly well even though we are always cash-poor. In February, the only debt we will have is our mortgage, and we have over 50% equity in our home. I am able to provide for a family of three on one income while saving and investing over 25% of that one income for the future. We are now looking at a big change since we want to send our daughter to private school, meaning I need to come up with another $500 per month.

To make it work, we pinch pennies. We live very simply. We eat out very rarely. We cut coupons and watch our expenses. We are members of a wholesale club and shop wisely. Both of our vehicles are second-hand and we have clear title to both. Our living room furniture is second-hand. Instead of buying something cheap every couple of years, we save for the best value and buy for a lifetime.

Sounds like middle-class to me.

[skidmark]

I am probably the luckiest person on the face of the earth, when it comes to finances.

I picked the right set of grandparents! They have made me Independently poor before retirement. I could quit work and live for the expected rest of my life without having to worry - so long as prices do not get too far out of hand. On the other hand, I would not be eating any better than my current frugal means allow, and I might have to slow down just a tad on the already slow acquisition of more guns. [Homer voice - "More guns!" <drool>]

No dependents, no mortgage (OK, so I rent but I do not have to cut grass, shovel snow, etc.), and nothing bought that can't be paid off in full when the credit card statement comes in at the end of the month. Oh, yeah! I'm also a state employee looking at a major bump in pay who actually loves doing what I get paid for.

Life is good. I want to find an outdoor range somewhere close by. Once I find that life will be great.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Smoke]

I view that as personal information and it's nobody's business.

Smoke

[peteinct]

Hi, Just some more on this topic, To start off my wife and I make upper middle class money but live a lower middle class life style. Once we got a positve cash flow going and cleared our debt the snow ball effect works in our favor.
Weath isn't large amounts of spending it's about having large amounts. I think there are some people living large on a credit card who will be hurting if the slightest thing happens to their income. If you get into the habit of spending less than you make and it is a very hard habit to get into you are more prepared to face a downturn and you can build up an emergency reserve.

No offence intended if your spending and debt is out of hand that is the SHTF you should be working on not dreaming of another expensive thing to buy such as a gun or whatever.

I think that feeling wealthy whatever your circumstances is something we should all learn to do. I haven't got it all the time yet. Sorry if I'm getting all cultist again, but there is always somebody who has more money or more toys than you. Even if you don't know that person in life there is an advertisement to make you unhappy with what you have. So the trick is being happy within yourself.

That shiny new gun isn't going to make you a different person and some of the best things about the gun hobby are the experiences and the memories of hunts or shoots or good times with family or buddies.


I also have noticed that economic conditions seem different to different members here. Things that make the company where I work busy or slow don't always seem to match other peoples. So I bet there is always opportunity but you may have to work hard to catch it.

pete

[El Tejon]

Doing just fine, now if the government would get out of my way and if people would get out of the wagon and help me pull this thing, I would be even better.:)

444, retire at 52? By that age, I'll just be getting warmed up. I'm in for a long long career of eeevil.:evil: Carry me out horizontal--on my desk.:D

[armoredman]

I must be working for the wrong state agency - I make just enough to keep ramen in the cupboardm and buy a gun a year, if lucky enough to keep it all year.
We may get a raise, but unlikely, as people are leaving my Dept in droves. We will probably start mandating overtime, and go to 12 hour shifts in February - that would suck even worse, as they have me on the graveyard 12 hour roster.
No raises soon, and I may look for other work....
Would prefer to be a career lottery winner, but they keep rejecting my weekly application....

[artherd]

I started with nothing, but turned it into some bucks. I can buy some weapons/other toys, but I TRY keep the toy/asset ratio at 10% max. I've paid cash for every vehicle I own, and never bought new for instance.

However, In the modified words of Chris Rock, "Man, We could get some wealth goin if we weren't buyin up all the guns!"

[mtnbkr]

Not rich, but I make enough that my wife gets to stay home with our daughter. She works, to get out of the house, but at a job that lets her have our daughter with her (daycare at a local gym).

Barring any unforseen disasters, we'll be debt free (other than mortgage) this time next year or earlier. I have enough liquid cash to pay off most of that non-mortgage debt, but I prefer to keep that handy "for emergencies".

Mostly, our situation is from us not being the types to "keep up with the Jones" and both of us being fairly frugal in the day to day stuff. We don't have cable, we don't drive (or buy) new cars, etc. My only significant consumer spending is gun related stuff and I'm pretty tame in that regard to a lot of folks (been trading for things lately).

Chris

[Fido]

After reading the statements and replies in this thread I have this perspective to add.

First, the scale on which you are taking the "standard" must be defined.
On one end of the scale you have the very wealthiest of humans, the Bill Gates, Donald Trumps, Opra Winfreys of this world.

On the other end of the scale you have the very poorest of humans. Lets say a man living in a dirt floor mud hut, no running water, no electricity, hunting and gathering for existence, third world country.

For myself having been raised in the USA the richest most powerful Nation in the history of the world, I am closer to the rich end of the scale than I am the poor end.

God Bless the USA

[xd9fan]

God bless the USA so long as the people and not the Govt rule. We're not trending well. Each Generation asks more and more from the Federal Govt. :banghead:

I think the word wealth needs some clearification(my word) wealth is assets after liabilities not consumtion power/debt potenial. I know many MD's that make a snot load each year and are wealth-poor.

Like mom said "If you have your health you've got everything"

[444]

Just a few random thoughts I had while reading this thread.
I am not really intested in comparing my standard of living with the rest of the world. I know I have it better than most of the rest of the world and I intend to keep it that way. Rather than worrying about the standard of living in third world countries I am more worried about setting new and higher standards of living here in this country. I am not intested in the lowest standard of living. I want the highest standard of living.
By the same token, I am not satisfied with what I have. I want to continually improve my lot in life which includes buying newer and better toys. This is what motivates me to get up every morning to go to work. That is what keeps me going when I haven't had any sleep for 40 hours. It isn't knowing that I can maintain the status quo: it is knowing that I am working to go way beyond. One of the most miserable periods of my life was when I was married and my paychecks just disappeared and I simply existed: I didn't move forward, I wasn't improving and neither was my standard of living, I was just in a holding pattern.
The most important thing to me is that I am spending as high a percentage of my income as possible on things that I want to spend them on. Not stuff I have to spend it on, but stuff I want to spend it on. Obviously, this gets tougher every day.

[JPM70535]

My story mmics the majority of those who have found the path to relative financial independence, i.e., spend less than you make and save all you can,while you can.

My wife and I were mere babies when we married 42 years ago, and didn't have the provebial pot to pee in or the window to throw it out of. We had 2 high school diplomas between us, and a U.S. Navy salary of $280 a month.
When I was forced to retire in 1996 due to an on the job accident, we still had the same 2 High School diplomas, but due to a lot of hard work and a little luck in having chosen the right career paths,(Law Enforcement for me and Administrative for my wife) We are now debt free. Our home is paid with the exception of $25000 being paid at $1000/month. Cars are paid for, we bank wifes salary and live on mine, always pay cash for everything, and have an obscene amount of money in the bank.

Sounds like upper midle class, right. One small negative, medical costs are rising atronomically, health is declining, and income (mine) is fixed. When the wife retires in 5 years, (hopefully) we seriously doubt that income will match out go, so in fairness We have to say lower middle class. Just hoping to leave this world with more than the Pot.

[Fido]

Fair enough 444. I agree with what you have to say. We should be striving to better ourselves and our positions. Thats what respondsible citizens do.
Just thought I heard some whining earlier.

[NHBB]

self employed and always a rollercoaster. some years upper middle class, some lower middle class... but at least I dont have to take crap from anyone and make my own hours from home.

my wife doesn't make much, just about enough to offput her spending :D

nevertheless, I still feel like I am usually spinning my wheels and not making much headway. still have student loans, back taxes etc. that take a nice chunk out of the income, and of course heat for the winter, that is always a nice notch out of the cashflow.

[Boss Spearman]

Well I disagree that wages have been rising. I lost my job of 22 years when the company closed its doors and had to take one in the same field making about 45% less a year. I pretty much consider myself now lower middle class or upper poor.

[GunGoBoom]

I'm always SABA (scratching a broke arse) - that's how it feels anyway.

[HKUSP45C]

I view that as personal information and it's nobody's business.

Smoke

Is it just me, or are posts like this completely inane?

I know some of us are paranoid freaks living in castles that could withstand a small British onslaught. Also, that our identities and bank account are subject to review by "the authorities" and public at large. That our lives are only left secure by keeping as much "intel" as close to the vest as possible.

But, most of us are just "gun nuts" posting on a forum. Replies like this, IMHO, further the idea, to everybody that "gun nuts" are the former.

So, you think it's personal? Don't hit the reply button.

It takes more effort to say "I won't participate because I disagree with the premise" than to simply not participate.

Gah, I appologise to the quoted member, but sheese, let the forum "become" before stifling it with silly quips about how you're "above it" or "better than that" or that your "privacy" is more important (whether you were asked to chime in or not) than discourse.

[/rant]

My lovely lady and I pull a decent living, Upper-middle Class, I still don't have all the toys I want. Neither does she. It's not from the lack of trying on either of or parts. :neener:

[Joey2]

I am where I am because of a good wife and the grace of God. We raised 6 children, all grown now thank God!.

I am retired military after 26yrs. and worked as a union carpenter until May31,l995 when I retired. My military injuries forced me to stop working.

We are very comfortable. We can pretty much spend what we want without pinching pennies. I spend a lot on reloading. We live the farm life. She has chickens for eggs and meat, a large garden for fresh vegetables to eat and can. She bakes her own bread and basically makes everything from scratch.

I have 7 pet goats that do cost me a lot to feed and maintain. They are my pets and off limits other ideas of raising goats.

[SalTx]

For the past several years I was doing okay..lower middleclass I think. Then I decided to be happy, get married, and make a home. I left my "career" with the government and going to school now. Wife just became an LVN. I now work part-time, full time school for two years. In a year or two, we should be back to being okay...and a lot happier. I just wish I had done this from the beginning, wasted several years working in places I never wanted or intended to live and die in. So presently, can't afford any toys of any kind, but I'm doing great.:)

[backphil]

I owe more to Sallie Mae than I make in a year. That's not counting the other debts I have accrued by starting a business (since closed). Gas prices have NOT been helpful in this regard.
It's all I can do to bring my used Jeep back up to spec (not much vital maintenance of ANY kind was done for it- should have made a lower offer) bit by bit every paycheck.
I'm still living at home, working for $9.50-11.00 an hour. :o

Not much on the horizon either. My college degree is vastly different from anything I have grown toward lately, and beyond my hobbies there are few things I really excel at.

Pretty much the couple-years out of college doldrums.

My advice (http://www.daveramsey.com/)

[Ellie]

Also helps that I have neither kids nor an expensive harem to support.

dang, I was hoping I could move in :rolleyes:

Me an' husband are doing good because we have two good incomes and no kids. It's weird her in Kali bc the property values have gone up so dramatically in the past 10 years, and property taxes are frozen at purchase value (thank gawd, but still, it squeezes the young folk),

[SamlautRanger]

Doing well right now, thanks to the grace of God.

Am 37, single, and hopefully Lord willing will have my house paid off in 6 months and be able to retire at age 40.

Of course working overseas helps out. Tax free and my company pays for all my living expenses and gives me Per Diem.

But, after living and working overseas for so long. I can tell you that you are very wealthy if you have the following:

Roof over your head, food to eat, medical care, and can afford some recreational activites and hobbies. You got it better than most in the world.

Most of the people here in Cambodia would do anything to have the opportunity to work at a McDonalds for minimum wage in the USA. Their pay, medical, children's education would be so much better.

I give thanks to God everyday that I was born in America and the opportunities that we have as Americans.

[Nathanael_Greene]

Well said, Samlaut.

I'm doing okay. Not as bad off as I have been, nor as well off as I'd be if I'd had steady employment, but I really can't complain.

Health care costs, though, scare the bejeebers out of me.

[FXR]

I am graced with good health, a wonderful marriage, and two perfect children. Any other measure is irrelevant to me!
K

[Ryder]

I would say my standard of living is relatively low. Roof leaks, basement floods, dog eats better than me, and no health care.

Oh money? Never better. Don't need anything. No debt. Paychecks are above average and piling up in the bank.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Has anyone else noticed that almost none of us are complaining about our lot in life?

This can't be normal. Optimism is not a very common trait in the general population. How many other groups of people would show such a universal sense of contentment and satisfaction with their lifestyles?

[HKUSP45C]

Has anyone else noticed that almost none of us are complaining about our lot in life?

This can't be normal. Optimism is not a very common trait in the general population. How many other groups of people would show such a universal sense of contentment and satisfaction with their lifestyles?

I think alot of that comes from the same place most of us got our "gun nuttieness." I think most of us here are independent, hard working, freedom loving Americans. That leads to the attitude that we aren't owed anything, therefore we made our own lot in life. I don't know about y'all but I'm proud of all the things I've made, even if it turned out worse than I'd hoped.

I belive that is why there is so little whining, that, and coupled with the fact that most of us know we have it better than the majority of the world.

[LAWDOGKMS]

I'm 34 and my wife is 32..

2 kids, a 5 y/o and 13 y/o

I've got a real nice big brick house (2600 sf), with 4br/3ba, 2 car garage, workshop etc....with inground pool and hottub, in a great neighborhood, in a wonderful town, and some great friends..

We have bills..

We have 75K left on mortgage, one vehicle payment (wife's Z71 Suburban, I drive a 93 F150 that is paid for), and one loan payment on my fish/ski boat (Cajun 19').., and one credit card.

Yes, we have bills, but we're making ends meet, driving safe vehicles, and have enough money to get away for the weekend when we want to, and take a 2 week vacation every year..

Sure...I could go the "Dave Ramsey" route, sell my wife's Suburban and buy her a beater, sell my boat, move into a little apartment etc...

What fun is that though?

As long as I am not sinking "deeper" into debt, these are probably my best years 30-40's, and I plan to enjoy them!!

I can be "frugal" later, when the kids are gone..

I make about 70K, and my wife makes 25K..

I don't know where this places us in the "class" category, but I know we're doing fine and enjoying life..

I'll assume the income makes us "lower middle class",..

Correct?

[NCP24]

I'll assume the income makes us "lower middle class",The last time I checked it would be “upper middle class”.

[sumpnz]

I'll assume the income makes us "lower middle class", The last time I checked it would be “upper middle class”.
Depends. With $100k combined income that would be "lower middle class" in some areas like SanFran, LA, Seattle, NYC. In others, like Alabama, most of AZ, heck most of "flyover" country it would be "upper middle class".

I'd say that as long as you're living a life style that keeps you happy, whatever that may be (without going into heavy debt), and you can save enough to have at least some kind of retirement, you're pretty darn well off.

[LAWDOGKMS]

Depends. With $100k combined income that would be "lower middle class" in some areas like SanFran, LA, Seattle, NYC. In others, like Alabama, most of AZ, heck most of "flyover" country it would be "upper middle class".

I'd say that as long as you're living a life style that keeps you happy, whatever that may be (without going into heavy debt), and you can save enough to have at least some kind of retirement, you're pretty darn well off.


I'm in West Texas (Midland/Odessa area), and it's pretty darn inexpensive to live here..

I'm a Fed employee, and have a pretty decent Thrift Savings Plan (basically a 401K) that I contribute 13% of my salary to annually. The TSP and my govt. pension should set us up okay in the future. My wife was contributing to a Mutual Fund monthly, but stopped it when she gained a 401k with her latest job..

Who knows how the economy will be when I retire, or if I'll even have any of that money I invested in the 401K?

Hopefully, when the G forces me out at the mandatory age 57, I will be able to go fishing for the rest of my years..

Unfortunately, my peers in my career field that are currently retiring, seem to be looking for odd jobs even after they retire.. I think it's to fend off boredom, and not for the $$ though..

Anyway, I'm going to enjoy my life..

Like the Tim McGraw song "my next 30 years", I'm going to enjoy these years!!

That said, I leave in about an hour for a 2-day 4-wheeling and camping trip at Terlingua Ranch..

See yall next week...

[seansean]

well, I'm an actor, that's how I make my living, I literally live in hollywood,I'm 36, single, no wife or kids, decent apt, good car, income last year was 57,000 this year it's in the 40's. I don't own anything yet, hoping to get a condo next couple of years. housing prices in L.A. are unbelievable, there's a 2br house on my corner going for $869,000:eek: Same house in middle america MIGHT crack 100,000.

[iamkris]

Quote:
I'll assume the income makes us "lower middle class",

The last time I checked it would be “upper middle class”.

Agree with other posters...depends on where you live.

$100K combined income in the north chicago suburbs where I live would not be considered upper middle. Not when average (yes that's average) housing price is $500-600K. Places like SF, NY, Seattle are even worse.

My wife and I were deciding whether to move to a new house or add on to our Victorian, we found we couldn't touch anything that would fit our family for under $800-900K. We decided to add on.

[wingman]

I think alot of that comes from the same place most of us got our "gun nuttieness." I think most of us here are independent, hard working, freedom loving Americans. That leads to the attitude that we aren't owed anything, therefore we made our own lot in life. I don't know about y'all but I'm proud of all the things I've made, even if it turned out worse than I'd hoped.


Wow, I'm very pleased with all the post, I also believe that people who enjoy
there hobbies, guns, cars, airplanes, etc, tend to be more stable, happy.
I am suprised by the optimism. In my younger days I did consider myself
middleclass however with age and inflation I feel that has changed in terms
of money but like Art I purchased hobby gear in the days it was lower priced
and I feel lucky on that scale and in terms of my children who are doing
very well.
Thanks for all the reponse guys and I hope everyone continues to enjoy
there hobbies and do well in life.

[Monkeyleg]

Most of my neighbors here in my part of Milwaukee make about $70,000 to $100,000. But that's with both spouses working.

Houses in the area range from 1,300 square-foot brick homes like mine to 2,400+. They're all older homes with character. Prices are $150,000 to a bit over $200,000.

A neighbor of mine sold her home for $180,000 and moved to San Diego to work for Cisco. She quickly found out that she couldn't afford a house, and she's very, very well paid.

[petrel800]

Call me old fashioned, but my parents told me it was impolite to ask or talk about peoples personal finances in Public.

[odysseus]

From today's Yahoo Finance page titled "A Scientifically Proven Way to Be Happy"


...from Vietnamese Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh.

"When I have a toothache, I discover that not having a toothache is a wonderful thing," he writes in "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching." "I had to have a toothache in order to be enlightened, to know that not having one is wonderful. My nontoothache is peace, is joy. But when I do not have a toothache, I do not seem to be happy. Therefore, I look deeply in the present moment and see that I have a nontoothache, that can make me very happy already."

...As Aristotle wrote, "The life of money-making is one undertaken under compulsion, and wealth is evidently not the good we are seeking; for it is merely useful and for the sake of something else."

[Soap]

I'm technically right out of the gate since I just graduated a year and a half ago. However, I'm doing very well considering how new I am to the job market. I feel very blessed to be in my current position. The wife brings in more than her major in school said she would and so do I. The current plan is to stay financially stable then hit the books again for an MBA.

[wingman]

Call me old fashioned, but my parents told me it was impolite to ask or talk about peoples personal finances in Public.


Please note in original post that I stated "not looking for pay stubs".

[beaucoup ammo]

..and hope it's vice-versa. Let's hear it for relativity...compared to where I expected to be at this point in life, all is well. Better than expected. As good as any and better than many.

The criteria I attach to a good life doesn't match many, or most, who've posted here. If getting more toys is your motivation for getting out of bed, more power to you! I hope your pile of goodies grows every day! Seriously.

I prefer being on "Beaucoup Ammo Standard Time" and good health to anything else. With very modest income, but zero debt, Mrs Ammo (of 35 years!) and I can be working in the vegetable garden..look at each other with the same thought, and hit the road for weeks at a time, anytime...both retired 9 years ago and still in our 50's (for another 2 months anyway!).

Having raised three children who are doing well..expecting 1st grandchild in 3 months..I'm a happy man and a lucky skunk. A Charter Member And At The Vanguard Of The Baby Boomer Generation!:O)

Take Care

[gm]

the average wage here is 7.50 an hour..I left a 14 dollar an hour job of 8 years and no future that was an hour and a half away to a temporary one that is 15 minutes but pays 7.50 an hour, which is the higher income most places pay here...but am going back to college,taking up the health field and have a 4.0 cumlative average in my final 2 years, I have a degree in LE but here, they are letting them go because of no money.

My wife makes 11 an hour but her place "lays off" every single year and employ a bunch of wannabes.Its my goal to graduate,get a decent job and offer my wife the choice to quit.

[matis]

Like Art said, rather sparse income but have assets that generate enough to live off.


I've always been frugal and now reap the benefits. Waste not; want not. Don't eat the seed corn.


The proverbs are true.


My lady sweetens my life, my daughter makes me proud and even my dog puts up with me.

I can't afford a Lear Jet, but I can afford the toys I want.



Shakespear said, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players on it."


I've got good health, it took me quite a while, but I finally learned the secret of happiness. And I intend to hang around as long as possible to watch the show.



matis





P.S. Don't Remember Where I Read This....

Q: Who Is Rich?

A: He Who Is Satisfied With What He Has.


It's a Chassidic saying. But it is probably found in other traditions as well.

The answer serves double duty: it's also the answer to the question, "Who is a happy man?"


So based on all this, I'm as rich as Bill Gates.

[ctdonath]

Doing OK, comfortable. Own country home, live in apartment elsewhere, have more stuff than we know what to do with (trying to cut down & clarify life's needs & purpose). Do what we want so long as refrain from the extravagant (and even get a bit of that at times). Debt means we got a bit ahead of ourselves, but that will pass in time. Bit of a pay cut while prepping for a significant pay increase. Selling some assets would be very reasonable and clear up the cash flow, but a hassle at the moment.

Upshot: Standard of living is comfortable but not quite where we'd like it to be - but that's because we always want more. I could get that integrally suppressed tricked-out Ruger Mk. II, or the genuine Colt semi-auto SBR LEO-marked AR-15, RIGHT NOW (paperwork aside) ... but that's not really prudent at the moment. Now is a proper time to enjoy what I've got.

A loving wife, a faithful dog (Teddy, stop licking my foot), a humble abode, WiFi, and a Steyr Scout - truly, what more does one need?

[Waitone]

Recently underwent a radical lowering of breakeven. I'm using the opportunity to set myself up as an independent sales broker. I wanted to do it 20+ years ago but my interest in commodities (food, clothing, shelter, and household harmony) prevented me. Right now I don't even own my own pot but that will change. I look forward to my doublewide on the side of a hill with a range in the back and a hot tub on the front porch. Grazing fire all around. :D

Retire? I simply can not imagine being retired.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

The Party says that we're rich and should be taxed heavily.

But then again, the Party says that everyone is rich and should be taxed more heavily. :fire:

Seriously, we're DINKs and have enough for the material comforts. What my job is currently depriving me of is time. I'd rather have a bit less money and a lot more time at this point.

- NF