[Atticus]

The recent dog attack story (and resulting threads) motivated me to post this. I'm looking for opinions and/or legal advice about using lethal force against other people's dogs.

I was walking with my 9 year old twins a few weeks ago when two large dogs ran at us at full speed with teeth bared. They stopped about 2 feet away because of an invisible fence. I was totally unaware of the fence, and I was a milli-second away from slashing the throat of the lead dog ( I wasn't carrrying a gun that day - just a big folder). I'm not sure what the law would say about that....but I didn't care at the time. I stood there for a few minutes waiting for the owners to come out of the house, but they didn't. Could be because I had an 8" knife in my hand and a face as red as the devil...ya think? Afterward, I really began to wonder what I would have done if I had been armed with a pistol. I was convinced they were going to attack; I would have drawn if I had been carrying; and I would have likely fired when they got as close as they did. Would I have been justified in your opinon?

On the bright side- I found out just how fast I could fully deploy my knife under stress...about 1.5 seconds I'd guess lol.

[Kurt_M]

You're with two kids and two dogs coming at you in attack mode? Hell yes you would have been justified! The only improper course of action in such a situation would be to do nothing. Glad everything worked out OK for you.

[deanf]

I was convinced they were going to attack

Are you a reasonable man? Then the above is all you need.

[Greg L]

Was the yard bordered by little yellow flags 4" apart? If not then you had no idea an invisible fence was there (and even if it was, you had no idea that the dogs knew what they meant yet). You probably would have had to wait until the dogs left "their" yard though to make it legal.

It also would probably depend on the location of the dogs. In a suburban subdivision setting where you were walking on the edge of the dog's property, you would have to wait longer to see if the dogs left their property/obvious enclosure. With my house you have to come up a 100 yard driveway & the dogs are behind a 4' fence in the backyard. If you do come up the driveway you will more than likely be greeted by them leaning over the fence barking for all they are worth (the fact that they are so stupid that they think that everyone who comes up the driveway is the UPS guy (who gives them Milk Bones whenever he stops by) is unknown to you at this point). For you to shoot them behind the visible fence might get return fire from me when I came out to see what the noise was about. At the very least you will be talking to the local police. However I have the buffer of time & distance to make sure that your actions were deliberate.

In the end it boils down to how threatened you feel & can you justify that level of threat with every other variable thrown in (which we/the jury gets to decide at leisure & not in an instant while deciding to defend our family or possibly hesitate a little too long). Not an easy choice either way.

[Standing Wolf]

I wasn't carrrying a gun that day - just a big folder...

I'd have a lot more faith in a magnum revolver than a knife versus a vicious dog.

[No_Brakes23]

I'd have a lot more faith in a magnum revolver than a knife versus a vicious dog. I agree, but some of us are geographically unable to make that choice. Good thing there is no length limit on folders here. But I'd take open carry or CCW over the blade any day.

[Lupinus]

they came at you in a violent manner you would have been plenty justified and I doubt it matters if they were on their own property or not. If you were across the street maybe but if you are on a sidewalk or the side of the street boardering their property it shouldn't so long as it is a reasonable distence from you before responding. You had no way of knowing if there was an invisible fence and even if you had I've seen plenty of dogs run right through them. They were agravated as hell but by no means confined.

[Michael Courtney]

State laws vary widely in the circumstances where they permit lethal force against dogs. In Ohio, you're in good shape if you shoot a threatening dog on your own property or on neutral territory.

Shooting a dog that hasn't left the owner's property is more complicated and will depend on the jury's interpretation of multiple factors. In the situation you describe, I'd bet on an acquittal in the criminal trial and a large monetary award in the civil trial that is sure to follow.

Property-line confrontations are legal tangles. In a sense, any property owner should have the right to agressively defend his property all the way up to the property line. Depending on the details of the castle doctrine in a particular state, the individual on his own property might have no duty to retreat whereas the individual not on his own property may well have a duty to retreat.

A final point to consider before shooting a dog on the owner's property is that one needs to be careful to never give a reasonable man justification to shoot you. What will a reasonable man think when he looks out the window and sees someone he does not know holding a gun having just killed his deceased dog? If he considers his dog as an integral part of his home security plan, he may well reasonably view the person who just shot his dog as an armed criminal attacker intent on attacking his home. How will a jury in your state treat a homeowner who interprets the situation this way and shoots someone (in apparent defense of his home) who just killed his dog on his own property?

Michael Courtney

[USMC_2674]

I have refrained from commenting in all the dog threads recently, which has been hard considering all the stupid and assanine comments from various people. But, I will comment here.

While the law varies from state to state, you do have to take into consideration a number of things.

First, in any shooting will be the criminal charges (which won't always be brought up in a self defense situation) and also the civil charges.

In your situation, you would likely be cleared of criminal wrong doing provided that you were not trespassing on their property. But, in a civil court, you would most likely pay damages IF you shot the dogs while the dogs were still on the owners property.

So, if they are running loose (they have to be off of the owner's property for this term to apply), then shoot away with little fear so long as you are acting reasonably. But be very careful about shooting any dogs that are on "their" property unless you are truly truly in fear for your life and have no other options... because you will most likely pay for it.

And be careful when walking down the street. A dog that is "charging you" could be tethered and you just miss the chain in the action. You would be criminally responsible most of the time in that situation provided that the chain stops the dog short of public property.

Anyways, there is my 17 cents (I've been in the position several times and have too much experience with both sides of this issue).

Semper Fidelis,

Kent

[Atticus]

Thank you for the great replys. Those are the thoughts that have been swirling around in my mind since this happened. I debated calling the police and complaining about the dogs...but I didn't. I am really ticked off that the dog's owners allow them to do that. I talked to a guy I know who walks by there every day, and he confirmed that the dogs chase him every time....stopping just short of the sidewalk. The owner never comes out to call them off. In my mind this is assault...no different than the owner running at me with an ax in hand and then suddenly stopping at arms length. I might just call the local PD and make them aware of the problem. Who knows, they might already have numerous complaints agains them. For now I'll take a different route. Thanks again.

[Cosmoline]

Are you a reasonable man? Then the above is all you need.

WRONG ANSWER! Think about it for a second. There was an invisible fence. If you had killed them it would have placed you on private property. You would have been killing a proper owner's dogs on his property. He'd have been in his rights to shoot you dead on the spot. I would have done it in a heartbeat. If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property and the dogs are inside their invisible fence, it means the yahoo has ignored the property line and decided to come towards my house and start attacking my dogs. There's only one rational conclusion--he's coming after ME next. Otherwise he could have simply walked away.

WHERE the dog attacks is critically important. If the blood is on someone else's property and you're trespassing you're at fault--period. You're a criminal and the dog is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

You probably would have had to wait until the dogs left "their" yard though to make it legal.

Exactly. Esp. if you're using a blade. I'm not sure why "their" yard is in quotes, though. Front lawns are 100% private property. It always amazes me how many idiots don't seem to realize this.

[NHBB]

a while back an off duty cop shot dead a local man's dog for fear of his children as the dog rounded the corner and was supposedly threatening, that aspect was disputed, but I doubt anything came of it. should have been on a leash anyways... I always have my pup on a leash just for the sheer fact I am afraid he might get hit by a car, not cause he is vicious.

[USMC_2674]

"their" property as in the "dogs" property.

I put it there because obviously the dogs don't legally own the property, but they see it as "theirs".

Kent

[Lupinus]

his only means to defend himself is a blade and the dogs rushed him in a threatening manner. Is he supposed to magicly know that the dogs will stop and just snarl at him from the boarder of the property?

If putting himself between the dogs, which he had every reason to believe would attack, and his children ment he stepped foot on the property I doubt any jurry would convict him.

If you were rushing at my children like a madman making a damn good show that you were going to attack my children I have to wait for you to cross your property line to put myself between you and them even if that means I have to put a foot on your property?

Oh right, there is an invisible boundry that I am supposed to magicly know about. Just like if you point a gun at me I am supposed to magicly know it was unloaded?

Criminaly you would be fine more then likly invisible fence or not. Civily you might be screwed.

[Cosmoline]

Think about it. The only way he could attack the dogs in that case would be if HE WENT ONTO THE PROPERTY. That's literally crossing the line. If you shoot the dog from the sidewalk because you thought it was about to attack you on the public road, there's room for doubt. But going onto the property and hacking at the dog? No way.

I think everyone knows that front yards are private property. They just ignore the rules. Now if nobody gets hurt because you trespass, nothing is done. But if you go onto another man's property and attack his dogs you're looking at both criminal and civil charges. I've never heard of launching out against a dog with a blade as a reasonable or rational response to a dog charging you. I don't think the cops or the DA would buy it for a second. The blood, you and the dogs are all on HIS property. That's not good. If the dog and the blood are on the sidewalk or street--you're golden. Private property is not a technicality in this case. It's extremely important. It's the difference between stopping a wild dog on the loose and killing a man's dog on his own property. Like I said if I ever saw a person on my land slashing at my dog, I'd blow his face through the back of his head. I have to assume such a man is kiling my dog to come and kill me. There's no other rational reason for attacking my dog on my land.

[f4t9r]

I was curious to know if you were walking in your neighborhood
or somewhere else
One would think if in your neighborhood you would know the area and what kind of dogs are there. Depending on how long you lived in the area could come into play. If somewhere else you are gotta do what you think is right to protect your kids.

[Lupinus]

ok so if he is charging my kids like a linebacker, can't do anything till he is on the sidewalk or street when it is already to late? How bout if he has an axe or a club? Oh it's different if I shoot from a public street? Funny cause last I checked I couldn't throw rocks at a house from a public street, in fact there was no different between doing it from the street or the property.

No one is talking about running onto the porch to fillet the dogs. We are talking about putting you between two charging snarling dogs and your kids.

[tetchaje1]

He'd have been in his rights to shoot you dead on the spot. I would have done it in a heartbeat.

This is one of the more choice comments I've heard in a while... :rolleyes:

Just try to pass that one off to the jury, "That summabitch kilt my dogs 'cuz they were a-growlin' at his little girl, so I done plugged 'im!!!" Yeah, I'm sure that you'd get a justified homicide decision on that one... :rolleyes:

If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property and the dogs are inside their invisible fence, it means the yahoo has ignored the property line and decided to come towards my house and start attacking my dogs. There's only one rational conclusion--he's coming after ME next. Otherwise he could have simply walked away.

WHERE the dog attacks is critically important. If the blood is on someone else's property and you're trespassing you're at fault--period. You're a criminal and the dog is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.


Except that he was walking on the sidewalk. There is no way to know that the dog is barred by an invisible fence. As he stated, the dogs stopped short of attacking him because of the invisible fence, so he didn't act with his large folder. He exercised the restrained that he should have, but if the fence had not been there, and the dogs came onto the sidewalk, he would have been more than justified to kill the dogs.

You are right that front yards are 100% private property, but the second that dog crosses onto the sidewalk it is fair game to anybody who fears for their life because of your negligence for not locking the damn creature up, and you are likely to be liable for any medical expenses incurred because of the attack.

The man said he was walking on the sidewalk with his daughter, not taking a stroll through the dogs' backyard turf. And private property or not, even if he was taking a stroll across your front yard, no jury in the U.S. is going to acquit you for killing a man who warded off an attack from some mangy mutt on your property. Now trying to get into your house is a completely different story... ;)

[Lupinus]

could not have said it better myself tet...so I wont even try lol

[Richardson]

This is one of the more choice comments I've heard in a while... :rolleyes:

Just try to pass that one off to the jury, "That summabitch kilt my dogs 'cuz they were a-growlin' at his little girl, so I done plugged 'im!!!" Yeah, I'm sure that you'd get a justified homicide decision on that one... :rolleyes:

LOL.... Even saying that the hounds were "like family" wouldn't sway any jury that isn't populated with a majority of ASPCA members.

The man said he was walking on the sidewalk with his daughter, not taking a stroll through the dogs' backyard turf. And private property or not, even if he was taking a stroll across your front yard, no jury in the U.S. is going to acquit you for killing a man who warded off an attack from some mangy mutt on your property. Now trying to get into your house is a completely different story... ;)

Good words. If I was in the situation and alone, I could run away, which would probably incite the dog's instinct to chase, and see if they followed or if I was protected by "invisible fences". But with a child to guard the first thing to do is to put your body between the dogs and the child, even if it puts you in the front yard.

If Mike kills Doug because Doug killed Mike's dogs in self-defense, I'd like to be on the jury for Mike's trial.

[Atticus]

I was on the sidewalk and never would have left it...voluntarily anyway.
Let's not get too exited here guys. The other dog threads got closed as a result of too much emotion. This was in my neighborhood, but I don't usually walk this far, or take this route. I understand that people have a right to defend their property and that they may love their dogs dearly. But I would not hesitate to use lethal force against one that is attacking my kids while they are on a Public Sidewalk...or anywhere else for that matter. A human has a right to defend their property as well...but they cannot make a habit of chasing people with an ax or chainsaw who are simply walking by the house on a public sidewalk. And not to be a Smart***, but if I had shot the dogs, my focus would have immediately gone to the house (and owner) as we backed away. The owner was on my short list anyway...it's a good thing he had the dogs between him and me.

[tetchaje1]

could not have said it better myself tet...so I wont even try lol

You know. I grew up with dogs in my family my entire life. They were loved and treated with care as though they were members of the family.

However, we never crossed the line into believing that they had more worth than a human being. They are pets. To feel justified in killing another human being because he felt threatened by your dog, whether or your property or not, is just plain insane.

If he was in the wrong, sue him and make him replace your dog with another one, but I'll be damned if I am going to acquit a homeowner for wrongful death if I am on a jury and a case like Cosmoline's comes up... :scrutiny:

[Lupinus]

I know what you mean I grew up with dogs too, one of my grandfathers snarled at a kid and that was the end of that dog. Dogs are wonderful additions to a family so long as they are dangerous and your property or not if it is a danger to me or my kids it will be delt with I don't care it involves me going a foot onto your property or not.

Go ahead and shoot see how long you spend a free man. Maybe while you are at it the kids should be shot to incase they are coming for you next too :rolleyes:

[Cosmoline]

and the dogs came onto the sidewalk, he would have been more than justified to kill the dogs.

Yes, IF THEY CAME ONTO THE SIDEWALK. That's the difference. He has no right to go onto the property because he gets scared of the dogs.

[Cosmoline]

I don't care it involves me going a foot onto your property or not.


So in order to "protect your kids" you would trespass and attack dogs with a knife because they scare you :D It's not just illegal, it's nutty from a tactical point of view. If the dogs are really serious about an attack, you're going to get mauled and a blade won't do diddly. If they're not serious they'll run off and you'll be chasing dogs around with a blade on another man's lawn. Think about it for a second.

[Cosmoline]

However, we never crossed the line into believing that they had more worth than a human being. They are pets. To feel justified in killing another human being because he felt threatened by your dog, whether or your property or not, is just plain insane.

If he was in the wrong, sue him and make him replace your dog with another one, but I'll be damned if I am going to acquit a homeowner for wrongful death if I am on a jury and a case like Cosmoline's comes up... :scrutiny:

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land. There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense. And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?

[Travis Lee]

My neighbor spent a fortune to install an "invisible fence".

The dog kept escaping and he eventually cranked it up to maximum zap.

It made no difference the dog kept running off on adventures.

I would never trust my life against a vicious dog, and an "invisible fence".

--Travis--

[tetchaje1]

Go ahead and shoot see how long you spend a free man. Maybe while you are at it the kids should be shot to incase they are coming for you next too :rolleyes:

LOL! I hadn't thought of that one. "Your honor, members of the jury, I had no choice but to take down the little girl after I plugged 'er daddy 'cause the only logical explanation is that she was COMING AFTER ME NEXT!!!"

Maybe things work out a bit differently up in Alaska... ;)
...

How about this: "I kilt that summabitch to teach 'is little girl a thing or two 'bout my property rights." :p

[Omni04]

you mentioned 2 large dogs, any idea what kind of breed/mix they were? Also that is really good you learned how quick you could deploy your weapon. How bad do you think it would of been if there wasn't a fence? Also (sorry if you mentioned it already) how long did it take for them to make it to the edge of their yard? I wouldn't imagine more then 3-5 seconds unless it was a big yard.

[tetchaje1]

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land. There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense. And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?

I'm sorry, Cosmoline, perhaps I am being disrespectful and for that I apologize, but you and I just don't see eye to eye on this one. If your dog is growling and chasing around some guy and his little girl on your property you'd feel justified in killing him because he is a "criminal"?

Maybe he's just some guy out on a walk with his kid who felt threatened by your dog. You think? Oh wait, that doesn't happen in America anymore. He's a spy...that's it...a spy for Al Qaida (sp?)...and his daughter...she must be a closet suicide bomber with that skeery teddy bear of hers.

Maybe you can do the logical thing and call off your dogs first to see what the heck is going on. I don't know about you, but I'm not a perfect person. Maybe, just maybe, it's my fault and I should be apologizing profusely for my dogs attacking him and his little girl.

Hell no!!! I'm comin' out a-guns a-blazin'!!! :eek:

[Cosmoline]

Yes, things are different up here. A lot of folks don't put up no trespassing signs, they just post a target with their group on it :D

Let's set all the legal issues aside for a moment--it's crazy to try to defend against a genuine dog attack with a blade at least when dealing with a guard dog breed. The dogs I've worked with don't even feel cuts when their blood is up. If anything it makes them madder. The males in particular have so much hair and protective tissue around their necks it's nearly impossible to make any headway with anything less than an axe or a sword. You'd be better off with a long stick to keep them at bay. Going in on the offensive with a knife is just macho idiocy. Yes, most dogs will proabably run away but in that case there was no real danger anyway. If you're dealing with real guard dogs you're going to regret it very quickly. The best defense is to back slowly away while yelling at them and if you have no firearm using a heavy walking stick to stun them if they persist.

[Cosmoline]

and his little girl on your property you'd feel justified in killing him because he is a "criminal"?


No, not if there's a little girl there. But I'd wonder why the devil he's bringing an innocent little girl onto private property protected by guard dogs. I'd secure him at gunpoint and call the cops. He probably has no business with kids.

[Travis Lee]

If your dog chews up somebody inside your house, I'm with you. If your dog mauls a child on your property, two feet from the sidewalk, I'll give her daddy your house, if I'm on the jury.

You defend your property appropriately, and that means putting up a REAL fence, to keep your dog from presenting an imminent danger to people on the sidewalk.


--Travis--

[Lupinus]

So in order to "protect your kids" you would trespass and attack dogs with a knife because they scare you
No I wouldn't care about a property line in order to protect my kid from growling snarling dog that looks like its about to tear my daughters face off. Yes, if a dog looks like its about to jump on my kid and tear her face off I might be a tad on the scared side. I'd also be a tad on the scared side if I walked into my living room in the middle of the night to some burgler leveling a gun on me. Maybe I shouldn't protect myself and my kids either cause I am scared? What in the hell does it have to do with the dog scaring me? It has to do with the dog looking like its about to tear my kids face off. You have a dog like that it deserves whats coming to it.

It's not just illegal, it's nutty from a tactical point of view.
It's illegal now to stab a dog about to rip my kids face off? Its nutty to put yourself between your kids and a dangerous animal to protect them? Guess I didn't get that memo

the dogs are really serious about an attack, you're going to get mauled and a blade won't do diddly.
No? How many dog fights you been in or seen a dog attack someone? Bit? Sure. But that dog is going down and damn sure not mauling my kids.

If they're not serious they'll run off and you'll be chasing dogs around with a blade on another man's lawn. Think about it for a second.
If they arn't serious and they run off when I go on the defensive thats fine and well. I will go on my merry way back home and call animal control to report your dangerous animals that just charged at my kids and myself snarling like they were about to attack. Who said anything about chasing them all over the property?

A man is chasing my dogs around on my land with a blade? What do you want me to do with him? Come up and discuss the matter with a CRIMINAL who is trying to kill a dog that's trying to protect me? No, I'm going to blow his criminal rear end away.
How bout you just not have mangey mutts that like to charge kids? If dogs are charging me your damn right I am going between them and my kid with a knife of better yet a gun. I never said chase them I said put myself between them and my kids and I don't give a rats behind if that invloves taking a step or two onto your property. Maybe you should ask WHY someone had to pull a knife and shield their kids from your mutts.

Now if MY dog is on HIS land chasing HIM or his family? Of course he can kill it. I'll help him. It's not about the dog. It's about a madman slashing at my dog on my land
No its about using a public side walk and being charged by dangerous animals. Sorry when my and my kids lives re in danger I could care less about a property line.

There's no way on Earth that can be considered self defense
So if Im walking down a sidewalk boarding your property Im fair game if im charged and defending myself requires a step or two onto your property? Remember your mangey mutts are charging me not the other way around.

And the question on my mind is what is this bloody loon going to attack next? I have to assume it's ME. Why else put himself at risk by coming onto my land with a deadly weapon and use it on my guard dog?
Uh maybe your dangerous animals the fact there are two kids with me and a sidewalk might give you a clue? Better yet maybe just god given common sense might give you a clue that maybe, just maybe your dogs attacked me and Im the one defending myself and my kids? If you got a gun and im two feet on your propety your protected just fine till you can process it through your brain. You can do that right?

And guard dog? So now it is a guard dog. That means you know it is a protective potentialy dangerous animal that just might perceave a threat when there is none. Part of self defense involves common sense.

Travis-
That isn't a first a lot of people with large dogs have no luck at all with those things. I have seen plenty run right through them and keep going.

[Lupinus]

Yes, things are different up here. A lot of folks don't put up no trespassing signs, they just post a target with their group on it
Yeah and they also TRAIN THIER ANIMALS. You animal is attacking me I can defend myself. YOU are attacking me I can defend myself and my children. Doesn't matter. How about the fact I was on a public sidealk when the attack began? How about the fact you have to use a thing called reasonable force?

Let's set all the legal issues aside for a moment--it's crazy to try to defend against a genuine dog attack with a blade at least when dealing with a guard dog breed.
So I should run and be chased down and mauled? Or maybe I should forget the knife and just use my hands? Give me a knife and send a guard dog at me see how long he lasts. He will get a few bites in but he damn sure wont be the dead one.

ou'd be better off with a long stick to keep them at bay. Going in on the offensive with a knife is just macho idiocy
Who went on the offensive? Me or your mutts? I was walking on a public sidewalk.

If you're dealing with real guard dogs you're going to regret it very quickly.
How bout this one? If they are real guard dogs what the hell are they doing out alone in your yard without the person to give them commands? And on top of that you jsut shot a father protecting his kids. See hwo well that goes over.

The best defense is to back slowly away while yelling at them and if you have no firearm using a heavy walking stick to stun them if they persist.
Walking away keeps an animal from begining an attack if it has noticed you and is thinking about it. Once it has begun the attack walking backwards does nothing but make you easier to catch. And yes, charging is the begining of the attack. Go find a mountian lion or any preditor and see if backign up slowly once its already began its charge helps you :rolleyes:

But I'd wonder why the devil he's bringing an innocent little girl onto private property protected by guard dogs.
WHEN DID HE ENTER PRIVATE PROPERTY WITH HIS GIRLS?!? He is walking on a friggin sidewalk!

I'd secure him at gunpoint and call the cops.
Go ahead this way they can shoot the dogs for me. YOU have no buisness with dogs.

And Travis- On that I agree (reguarding in the house and sidewalk differences) with one thing added. So long as I was invited in your house and didn't provoke the dog. Aside from that addition agree completly.

[Cosmoline]

No? How many dog fights you been in or seen a dog attack someone? Bit? Sure. But that dog is going down and damn sure not mauling my kids.

I've not only seen many dog fights between guard dogs, I've had to break them up! I've been attacked many times--thankfully while wearing protective gear. But if I hadn't I guarantee even my best hunting knife would have given little protection. Males in particular have all that protection up front because they're designed to be able to chew on each other in fights. If you're really dealling with an out-of-control guard dog trying to stab it with your folder is unlikely to do anything to stop it.

The dog I have now once came back from the woods with a piece of jagged steel sticking through the side of his face from where he ran into something. And he wanted to play fetch! There was no reaction at all from this massive injury. I would not put any money down on the ability of a man with a small knife to be able to stop the attack. The first thing a trained dog would do would be to destroy your hand. You'd be better off with dog nail clippers, becuase I have seen guard dogs who are terrified of them :D

From a tactical point of view, a knife is the last thing you want to use against a guard dog. If you're really worried about dogs attacking your kids either get a PROPER FIREARM and PACK IT or just stop taking them for walks in that neighborhood. That way the whole issue becomes moot and you won't have to chase dogs around with a knife like an idiot.

Also, backing up slowly won't trigger a prey response. Running away is what you want to avoid, as some dogs will sucker bite on the legs.

WHEN DID HE ENTER PRIVATE PROPERTY WITH HIS GIRLS?!? He is walking on a friggin sidewalk!


If he's on the sidewalk, there's no problem. What I was talking about was the notion that he should trespass onto the yard and attack the dogs himself with the knife preemptively. Maybe we're talking about two different things.

[tetchaje1]

Private property or not, though, I can understand a man attacking a dog with whatever he has on hand, even his bare hands if necessary, to protect his child. I know that I would do the same. Is it "tactical". No. Is it "the proper tool for the job". No. Is it being a loving parent? You bet.

I knew a girl who was mauled by a dog when she was a little girl. She still had HUGE scars on her face to prove it 20 years later. I'm sure that her daddy yearned to have been there to fight that dog off however he could have to have prevented that kind of disfigurement and pain that his daughter suffered.

I WILL get in between a dog that is charging my daughter regardless of where I may end up standing to do so, and I will fend off an attack to protect her even if it means losing my life. It is what a concerned loving and protective parent does for their child. I just hope I don't get plugged by some ornery homeowner because I might be a foot onto their property while my daughter is a foot behind me on public land... ;)

I think that maybe I should step out of this thread since I don't want it to drift too much from the original intent, and since I don't want to get into a heated discussion with Cosmoline over this issue. He and I just don't see eye to eye, and I would hope that my 16 month old doesn't wander too close to the claymores on his property line... :uhoh: ;)

[Lupinus]

Cos-
A knife will do just fine if you know where to stick it. You don't know where to stick it to kil lan attacking dog thats your buisness. We arn't talking slashing we are talking sticking where it could.

If you're really worried about dogs attacking your kids either get a PROPER FIREARM and PACK IT or just stop taking them for walks in that neighborhood.

And for people that isn't an option for? Oh right maybe I should hide in my house :rolleyes:

Also, backing up slowly won't trigger a prey response. Running away is what you want to avoid, as some dogs will sucker bite on the legs.

If the dog is already charging it has begun its attack it doesn't matter how you walk run or otherwise. It will stop an attack from begining (maybe) once an animal is charging it has you pinned for a target no matter how you walk.

If he's on the sidewalk, there's no problem
Good then your mangey mutts shouldnt charge me and my kids. They do they initiated the attack not me and if you think im respecting your property line instead of keeping my kids from being mauled you are out of your mind.

[Cosmoline]

It's why they won't allow me in civilization anymore. Well that and some other issues :D

I think we're talking about two different things here, and maybe I misunderstood the scenario. Obviously a man can try to protect his daughters from a dog. All I'm saying is that trying to launch some bizarre counter attack with a folding kinfe by charging onto private property is ill advised and illegal. If afterwards the cops find all the blood, you and the dogs on private property and learn there's an invisible fence you're going to need a lawyer. If you're talking about the sidewalk or area RIGHT NEXT to the sidewalk where a dog has gone over the line and tried to attack you, of course you're justified. Though how a parent could expect to protect themselves let alone their kid in this world with no iron is beyond me.

If you're not able to carry a firearm, then bring a heavy Irish walking stick/club. I'm telling you unless you're a ninth level ninja master with the wall climbing boots you will GET YOUR HIND END KICKED in a fight against a real guard dog if you have only a small knife. You either don't have a clue what a real guard dog can do or we're talking about very different breeds of animals. "Knowing where to stab" isn't the issue. Your hand will never get there, at least not in one piece. The game will be over as soon as you stretch out your arm to attack. Put on a bite suit sometime and go through the paces with one of these beasts. It's a real eye-opener.

[Lupinus]

It's why they won't allow me in civilization anymore. Well that and some other issues
Really? Aparently the goverment can make good decisions on occasion.

All I'm saying is that trying to launch some bizarre counter attack with a folding kinfe by charging onto private property is ill advised and illegal
No one mentioned chasing your dogs like a mad man. What was mentioned was not giving a rats behind about propertly lines to protect your kids from a violent animal. If you have guard dogs and only an invisible fence no offence but you're an idiot.

If you're talking about the sidewalk or area RIGHT NEXT to the sidewalk where a dog has gone over the line and tried to attack you, of course you're justified.
When has something else been mentioned? I said a few steps not half the yard.

If afterwards the cops find all the blood, you and the dogs on private property and learn there's an invisible fence you're going to need a lawyer
And if you have guard dogs no real fence and they are outside alone you are gonna need a much better lawyer to keep your house from being my house.

[Cosmoline]

Maybe we're at cross purposes. I don't think Atticus did anything wrong. He was talking about using a knife IF the dog hadn't been stopped by the fence. Later on the comments seemed to suggest going onto the property with the knife to attack the dog preemptively. That's what I have a problem with.

As with many other issues the solution is clear--GET A FIREARM. A handgun would resolve the matter legally and tactically.

[Lupinus]

Im not a father yet

And I think the fumes from whatever your dogs have been dumping have been clouding your higher brain functions.

[Janitor]

Ok. I hate getting into it on dog threads because of the rampant ignorance that so often rolls through them. But there's an important point that seems to be getting missed by most in all the excitement.

My neighbor spent a fortune to install an "invisible fence".

The dog kept escaping and he eventually cranked it up to maximum zap.

It made no difference the dog kept running off on adventures.

I would never trust my life against a vicious dog, and an "invisible fence".
This is not a fine point. If it's a big strong dog, this is a potentially dangerous situation. A big/strong (Rot, Shepard, Chessie, Lab, Mastif, ...) that is motivated will not be stopped by an Invisible fence.

Not if they're as motivated as they would be in an attack they wouldn't. For a distance of something like 4'-5', they start to feel a tingle and with some collars, an audible. At about 2' the shock increases or pulses get closer together and the audible changes. At ground zero, all hell breaks loose for them.

But only for a moment. Think about it. A 125lb Rot running full steam for 100' before it gets to a tingle is only going to be there for a moment. If that dog is attacking somebody for any reason, I HIGHLY doubt the invisible fence will even slow the approach. He's coming out there.

And once they've gotten through the first time, fence is pretty much useless. At least it is when you can no longer turn it up. They, even Chessies ( :) ) learn how this stuff works pretty quickly. They know they need to stop when they hear the beep and feel the tingle. At least - they know it when they're not really pissed off.

Atticus - think about that next time you plan a walk with the kids.

Sorry about the interuption. As you were.

-

[SMMAssociates]

Twelve or thirteen years ago I attended a family gathering at a cousin's house - I'd never been there before.

As we have a large family, I ended up parking about three houses away from his drive.

While walking to his house, I noticed a rather large dog heading straight for me. He wasn't precisely threatening, but he was BIG enough to start thinking about this whole issue. My hand went to my PPK/S about the time I saw the "Invisible Fence" sign....

Point being that those fences don't always work. The kid across the street had to fence in his back yard because the invisible one in the front yard didn't do his dog any good at all. Not that the dog across the street was a danger, but I'm sure he wasn't the first who simply couldn't be trained to respond to one. Meantime, even a trained dog is going to break training once in a while if the conditions are right.

So, if I see the sign, and/or the dog, I get ready.... The property/dog owners have the responsibility to place the signs where they can be seen, and the fence some distance (say the magic 21'?) before the edge of the property.

Sometimes it's all common sense. The wife and I were leaving our house for some reason or other when a very large dog loped over from the neighbors property, growling and looking rather menacing. My wife grabbed my hand with "look out!" as I tried to grab my 1911.... Idiot.... Fortunately, the dog merely had a funny way of expressing interest - his owners were visiting the neighbors and called him off before I could toss my wife to the dog.... :eek:

My vicious attack terrier (170# dog in a 17# body) would probably dig an invisible hole under the invisible fence. We don't try stuff like that. My daughter gave him to us. I wrote her out of my will. The dog won't leave....

(Children who give their parents Jack Russells should be charged with felonies....)

Regards,

[Atticus]

Hey Cosmo where's Wanda? (You probably have to have a kid to understand that one lol...but just kidding anyway)

A knife wouild not have been my first, or third choice for defense...but it is what I had. These dogs were not trained Shepards or such...they were mixed breed akita/husky/malimute types...mostly fur. FYI - My neighborhood is a very densely populated, 100% residential, suburban, upper middle class place. The yards are approximately a quarter acre in size. Sidewalks are throughout the neighborhood. I'd bet that 50 or more people would walk by this house on a nice night. That is why I wasn't really concerned with safety issues - but I was wrong. The last thing I desire is to shoot that fool's dogs. I was merely wondering about "what if's".

[jpIII]

Orignal Question:
Afterward, I really began to wonder what I would have done if I had been armed with a pistol. I was convinced they were going to attack; I would have drawn if I had been carrying; and I would have likely fired when they got as close as they did. Would I have been justified in your opinon?


Cosmoline's opinion:
WRONG ANSWER! Think about it for a second. There was an invisible fence. If you had killed them it would have placed you on private property. You would have been killing a proper owner's dogs on his property. He'd have been in his rights to shoot you dead on the spot. I would have done it in a heartbeat. If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property and the dogs are inside their invisible fence, it means the yahoo has ignored the property line and decided to come towards my house and start attacking my dogs. There's only one rational conclusion--he's coming after ME next. Otherwise he could have simply walked away.



I respectfully disagree with Cosmoline. From the facts presented, I think you would have been justified. You are on a public way area, the sidewalk. You have every right to be there. It is not private property. Don't forget, the question is could he have used the gun had he been armed, NOT can he go slashing them?

If the sidewalk is directly connected to private property with no obstacles in between, then there is nothing that would allow a reasonable person to infer that charging dogs would not continue their charge. Assuming you could not see their electronic collars, or other tell-tale signs, then you have no way of knowing you are NOT in immediate and life threatening danger.

I'm not saying that you could shoot when they are still on the porch, but if they are within feet and nearing contact distance, then it would be justified. If you are in a state that has a duty to retreat, your non-retreat is easily explained by your inability to safely retreat with your daughters while being chased by aggressive dogs.

The homeowner likely could not take legal force against you for this. He would most likely be considered the original aggressor in the event for letting the dogs loose. Although in a state like Tx, this poses an interesting problem as you can use deadly force to protect property if there is no alternative. (I may have to start a new thread on this idea)

Theoretically, you could have a course of civil action against the dog owner for negligent infliction of emotional distress.

But what do I know,.. i'm just a law student. This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Cosmoline]

My post was not responding to the original hypo but to subsequent posts that suggested it would be OK to trespass and counter-attack the dogs. As I pointed out this is one case where property lines matter a lot.

If the sidewalk is directly connected to private property with no obstacles in between, then there is nothing that would allow a reasonable person to infer that charging dogs would not continue their charge. Assuming you could not see their electronic collars, or other tell-tale signs, then you have no way of knowing you are NOT in immediate and life threatening danger.

Which would justify shooting from the sidewalk, but not running up onto the yard with a knife.

[jpIII]

Cosm.

Must have missed that.
I guess we might agree after all.

[Cosmoline]

I think I was at cross purposes with the main thread.

[spacemanspiff]

You defend your property appropriately, and that means putting up a REAL fence, to keep your dog from presenting an imminent danger to people on the sidewalk.
may not be an option. homeowners association might bar fences from being erected. we have some neighborhoods around anchorage with such a rule. hedges are okay, fences not.
now the true variable here, is whether or not the person percieving an attack knows there is an 'invisible fence'. not that i pretend to be a lawyer, but would a reasonable person believe the dogs to be penned by an electronic barrier? if not, would they be in the right to shoot a dog that is not visibly restrained, charging towards them? i believe so. anchorage has 'leash laws' that go unenforced, save for the times when an armed citizen or LEO has to shoot the dog that is on the loose and acting aggressively. up here, if a dogowner tried to plead a case of 'but its electronically restrained', both law enforcement and a judge would laugh in their face.

local law enforcement has stated several times on local news interviews that it is completely lawful to destroy an aggressive dog, and they urge all dogowners to keep their pets properly restrained.

[Travis Lee]

I've seen the value of an "invisible fence".

They don't work.

A dog charges me, I shoot him.

A man charges me, waving a knife, he won't get out of his yard.

You set up a cannon on your front yard, aimed at my house, don't expect to get much mileage out of the "property rights" argument.

--Travis--

[txgho1911]

This is a wired fence. Burried copper conductor jacketed with PVC. This one is #14 wire. A 24# would work as well. My dog will chase the bully black cat or unlucky twin long enough to figure out she is in a heap of trouble. She will be stuck outside the fence until I let her back through the garage. I don't do that anymore. She back accross the fence to get her medicine and she knows it now.
She will go back into the yard on her own to keep me from taking her accross to slowly. Or even to get away from anyone she doesn't know. Real brave mutt and I can prove it!

I think Cosmo you got your feathers ruffled and I cannot figure out how you got there. Maybe I am not reading everything you did. My fence is over 25' from the side walk. She charges the black cats and squirells. If she ever charged someone on the sidewalk on my yard or accross the street and is closer than say 20'. Then she goofed and I screwed the pooch for letting her. If she gets shot or stabbed outside of HER fence I will be sweating ice water because I know I will get some medicine out of this one.

[SalTx]

Having been in a similar situation..I shot and killed the dog and would advise anyone in anything similar do the same, especially if you have loved ones involved. I think working dogs are a good thing, but it's surprising that "reasonable" people here place an animal above a human. It's tough enough to get cleared for a good shoot of another human, much less because of "he shot my greater worth than a human dog".

[Cosmoline]

local law enforcement has stated several times on local news interviews that it is completely lawful to destroy an aggressive dog, and they urge all dogowners to keep their pets properly restrained.

Only if it's off its owner's property or you reasonably believe it's about to come off its property. No law in this state allows anyone to go onto someone else's property and kill their dog because they think it looked at them wrong.

One of the main reasons I like to keep dogs is as an early warning system. Part of that means if someone is in my place or on my property actively killing my dog, it gives me time to get the Mosin out and kill them first from concealment and cover. This has nothing to do with my feeling for the dog. Nor does it have to do with placing canine life over the man's. It's one of the main purposes of a guard dog--to buy me some time to get ready.

I would never rely on an electronic fence to keep dogs in. The stupid zoning and CC&R's in Anchorage that prohibit front yard fences are one reason I will never buy property in town. I like it out where I"m free to build ten foot fences topped with razor wire.

[Lupinus]

right cos so you'd kill a guy being attacked by your dog right infront of his two little girls just cause he is a few feet on your property so the dogs wouldn't get at his girls? A guy thats being attacked cause your mangey mutt likes to charge people on a sidewalk in a threatning manner giving them every reason to believe its going the attack?

Real great stance :rolleyes:

Try that one, see what it does for property defense rights or your freedom

[Travis Lee]

And when your dog attacks the man, and his daughter...
and you finish him off with your rifle, 20 yards from your house,
you go right ahead and tell the police he violated your property, and you were in fear for your life.

This will be good; I'll get the popcorn so I can watch it on Court TV.

--Travis--

[Lupinus]

Im with ya travis.

Maybe we can sell tickets lol

[bamawrx]

I have two friends involved in K9 shootings. Both were very surprised at how the dog increased its attack once shot!

Keep in mind that you will not be able to effect psychological compliance on a dog, only neurological or physiological compliance with gun fire. They tend to bite at the bullet wound and rapidly ramp up the attack on you once hit.

All of us would be challanged to shoot two determined dogs to death while protecting two small children. May not be possible depending on breed, shot placement, capacity of weapon system, etc. That is a very dangerous scenario indeed.

[MechAg94]

The one thing I was thinking was that even if an invisible fence is working and is marked, if you put it 5 feet from the sidewalk, there is no way for the average pedestrian to know if the dog will stop until the dog is on them. That was my impression of the original account. 20 feet might be enough as you would be able to see the dog slow down before that.

It seems like at least 50% of agruments on sites like these are always crossed up. People who essentially agree, but charging off in opposite directions.

[silverlance]

would i trust an invisible fence with even MY OWN dog. most of these things have a "safety" feature that turns off the device after it has moved out of "green zone" more than 25 feet or so. that means that this thing is like pepper spray - real nasty, but you better have something else handy for when the guy doesn't go down screaming right away.

furthermore, any dog that makes it past the 25-ft/yd hurdle will realize that it can do so safely again.

I have TWO retaining barriers for my dog. One stucco iron gated wall, and then a steel wire fencing secured concrete interior wall. my dog would have to jump over a 5' then 6' wall to get outside. of course, any burgular would have to vault rose bushes, 6' wall, avoid motion alarm, avoid motion floodlights, not wake the dog, hop over a 5' wire fence, jimmy a wooden-dowel secured window, not trip the window alarm, and then avoid the three interior motion sensors and my insomniac roommate in order to catch me with my proverbial pants down =)

then, of course, they still need to batter down the door to my room.

after which i'll be bright-eyed and bushy tailed!

[SMMAssociates]

The one thing I was thinking was that even if an invisible fence is working and is marked, if you put it 5 feet from the sidewalk, there is no way for the average pedestrian to know if the dog will stop until the dog is on them. That was my impression of the original account. 20 feet might be enough as you would be able to see the dog slow down before that.

20' (21', actually) is the "magic" distance often quoted for a knife attack. Probably close enough for government work in this instance. The dog's likely to be a little faster, but has shorter legs :) . I don't think you could actually draw fast enough to hit the dog, but a weak-arm parry might give you a chance to get a couple into it, and a 1911 might be more than enough. IAC, I don't trust the invisible fence. In the case I mentioned, the dog just didn't have a vicious look - he could have been moving faster, or some such; more of a "feeling" on my part that resulted in taking a second to scan for the sign while reaching for the .380. He stopped well outside the "danger" range....

Regards,

[Cosmoline]

right cos so you'd kill a guy being attacked by your dog right infront of his two little girls just cause he is a few feet on your property so the dogs wouldn't get at his girls?

Lupinus, how many times do I have to tell you that's not what I'm talking about? Take a pill.

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT ISSUES.

First of all, it's a bad idea legally and tactially to launch out on a counter attack with a knife against somebody's dog because you're afraid for your kids or yourself if doing so is going to mean you're running onto their property. As I've said about six times now if the police come and find you the dogs and the blood ALL ON HIS PROPERTY then your position is not good. It makes YOU the trespassing party and takes fault away from the dog. You want the blood, the dog and you on the road or sidewalk when the cops get there. Understand? That's one issue.

ISSUE TWO is the fact that a lot of folks with dogs, including myself, rely on them to be the early warning systems and if I saw someone ON MY LAND KILLING MY DOG I would assume he was a lethal threat to me and kill him. Of course my land is out in the sticks and as I said I would not rely on an electric fence. My point was simply that any notion that you are FREE TO KILL ANY DOG THAT SCARES YOU is not only legally wrong if you did it on the wrong property you'd be shot dead. You need to be careful about killing dogs that aren't on your personal property.

ISSUE THREE is the fact that using a knife against a charging guard dog is a last-ditch option almost sure to fail. The notion that if you "know where to stab" you'll be able to kill the dog like a ninja master is suicidal against a real guard dog. Your hand will be hamburger long before it reaches a vital area, and the thrust will expose your guts, neck, and privies to nasty counter attack.

Comprende usted?

[Travis Lee]

Got it, Cosmo.

Your dog charges my daughter at 30 MPH, and I should just trust that he'll stop at the very edge of the sidewalk...

I tell my daughter to run home and I engage your deranged canine....
and you'll take me out with aimed rifle fire from your bunker position.

Yeah.... I'll be dead.....

You'll go to prison.... And my family will own your house.

Somebody setting foot off the sidewalk does not give you carte blanche to shoot him. Comprende?



--Travis--

[Cosmoline]

You clearly DO NOT understand what I just told you, Travis. Read my post again slowly.

[deanf]

You guys slay me. Espicially you, Cosmoline.
If some yahoo is slashing at my dogs on my property

But going onto the property and hacking at the dog? No way.

But the guy who started the thread wasn't asking if it would be ok to attack the dogs with cuttlery. He was inquiring as to his legal standing if he had shot at the dogs if he had been carrying a gun.

Then there's this:

In a sense, any property owner should have the right to agressively defend his property all the way up to the property line.

So it's ok if'n I stand in my yard with my Mossberg 590 Mariner and draw a bead on everyone who walks by, as long as I stay within the property line? I'm agressively defending my property, after all. The answer of course, is no. You can't get agressive with a firearm against someone who's got a perfect legal right to be where they are. The dogs are no different than the gun. You can't maintain dogs to get agressive with every person who walks by your house, and then use the excuse "oh, they were just doing their job."

Again, I maintain that the "reasonable man" test applies in this case. How would a reasonable man respond to two dogs who he believed at the time were intent on causing serious bodily harm to him and his? Would it be reasonable for said man to judge the status of invisible fencing in a fraction of a second? Would it be reasonable to expect the man to act only while the dogs were in the small amount of space between the alleged property line and the young'uns? No, and no.

And I say "alleged" property line because it is very possible that the public right-of-way (the real estate that is owned by all that is reserved for streets and utilities) extends several feet onto what the homeowner considers "his" property. Perhaps into the invisible fence area. Maybe into the middle of the lawn or shrubbery.

[Cosmoline]

I'm sorry if I confused you. I wasn't making it clear enough that I'm talking about different hypothetical problems and concerns. I'm not attacking what Atticus did. He's fine as far as I can see, other than needing a sidearm.

Some of the responses seemed to indicate if a dog was barking at your kids you could go onto a stranger's property and kill it. Maybe I misread them. As I pointed out, this is a very bad idea and quite illegal. I'm not talking about Atticus there--he was on the sidewalk and the dogs appeared to be about to hit him. He only had the blade as a last ditch weapon and thankfully he didn't have to try to use it.

Do you understand?

[deanf]

Oh, I understand.

You're stirring the pot by opening up discussions in this thread that have very little nexus to the problem presented by the original poster.

Please comment on my "reasonable man" thesis.

[Cosmoline]

Yes, that's me, Cosmoline the troll :D

I was trying to explore some of the problems with being too assertive with the problem of aggressive dogs.

Atticus behaved as a perfectly reasonable man. I think I've already said that.

A reasonable man WOULD NOT leave his daughters in the street and try to go onto the lawn and stab at the dog because he thinks he knows how to kill it with his ninja blade. That's just silly.

[ArmedBear]

As someone who knows a bit about dogs, I am shocked at how many people think a dog running up with a big grin is "baring its teeth."

I'm going to assume, however, that you know how to read dog behavior.

I, personally, wouldn't shoot someone in front of his kids if I could help it. It's called being a decent human being. I also don't have a dog who would attack, and I know what to expect from her.

That said, if someone shoots my dog on my property, or points a gun in the direction of my front door, and I see him, then he needn't worry about his legal standing. It's my property, he is pointing a gun in my direction. When his body is picked up, after I call 911, I think I'll have little to worry about.

My point? People can be pretty fond of our dogs and not very fond of people pointing guns in our direction, on our property. Just something to think about. I hope it is never an issue, and I certainly won't put my dog in that position, either.

[Lupinus]

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT ISSUES.
None brought up by anyone but YOU. You seem to think that someone said they would walk halfway across your property to slit your dogs throat. And NO ONE said anything remotly close to that. If your dog charges me it initiated the situation not me. And I am tired of hearing out your big bad super dog that is immune to a knife blade. It isn't what id prefer but it is better then nothing. Give me a knife of my choosing and let your dog launch itself at me see how long it last's. And you seem pretty eagar to pull the trigger. Part of reasonable force is REASONABLE, key word there. You know you have violent animals with no proper fence and me in a fight with them within a few feet of a sidewalk and shoot me instead of them you are a moron that deserves to have your rifle shoved where the sun don't shine. Along with whats left of your dogs when I get done with them.

You clearly DO NOT understand what I just told you, Travis. Read my post again slowly.
Cause you stopped making sense in your first post of this thread. Could read it as slow as humanly possible and it wouldn't make sense. It sums up to this- You see dog and me in a fight you shoot to kill. You don't take five seconds to think gee, maybe he was on the sidewalk and my dog attacked him? You have to stop and thinking before pulling that trigger its called responsability.

Some of the responses seemed to indicate if a dog was barking at your kids you could go onto a stranger's property and kill it
Where? Show me WHERE it says that other in your mind. No one said they are going to kill your dog for looking at them cross eyed or barking a little. What was said if your dog charges me its time on this earth is quickly coming to an end and I don't give a rats behind if getting myself into a defensive possestions means I have to set a few feet onto your oh so sacred property.

A reasonable man WOULD NOT leave his daughters in the street and try to go onto the lawn and stab at the dog because he thinks he knows how to kill it with his ninja blade. That's just silly.
:banghead:
No he lets the dog attack them and then trys pulling them off. He doesn't put himself between them and the violent mutts with the only weapon he has at his disposal.

And you keep calling them your early warning system. Fine, they can bark all they like if they are secured. Heck they can back at me all they want from the porch or lawn. But there is a difference between that so you can poked your gun out the window and peek through your scope and them charging me and my children on a public sidewalk because you let them run around loose. Secure them or dont have dangerous animals.

That said, if someone shoots my dog on my property, or points a gun in the direction of my front door, and I see him, then he needn't worry about his legal standing. It's my property, he is pointing a gun in my direction. When his body is picked up, after I call 911, I think I'll have little to worry about.
And now someone is pointing a gun at YOU?!?
Where is this crap coming from? There wasn't even a gun in the origional post. And if there was you are going to shoot me for pointing it at your charging dogs to stop them before they attack my kids? :banghead:

[Cosmoline]

None brought up by anyone but YOU.

I was trying to explore the different aspects of the issue. Sorry if I upset you.

YIf your dog charges me it initiated the situation not me. And I am tired of hearing out your big bad super dog that is immune to a knife blade. It isn't what id prefer but it is better then nothing. Give me a knife of my choosing and let your dog launch itself at me see how long it last's.

Oh, that would be a mistake :D Or are you planning on using the special wall climbing boots and the extra ceramic plates? You will note that the only thing keeping my buddy from launching into the air is a VERY thick training leash attached to a spruce tree. And he's only half serious there because I'm the one agitating him just off screen. There's more than enough power in those jaws to snap both wrist bones on a man. He's been trained to latch onto the arm with a full bite and break it. An untrained working line dog or one trained on a full body suit will "corn cob" the attacking arm rendering it a bloody stick of hamburger in about five seconds. Then he will go to work on the neck, face, privies, or whatever takes his fancy. This is why I say don't attack a serious dog with a knife unless it's your last option. Don't even attack a bluffing dog with a knife, since a cut can give them courage. A very heavy club with some length to it is preferable if you don't have a firearm. The last thing you want to do is reach in there. You might as well try to attack an industrial meat grinder with a fork.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30976&d=1131524038

[Janitor]

You might as well try to attack an industrial meat grinder with a fork.
+1

This isn't exactly what I was thinking when I first read that Atticus had pulled his knife. It's a much better analogy than anything I came up with. I'm sure that at that moment, with the dogs charging and his daughters there, nothing else came to mind at all. But a knife? Hmmmm - I'm fairly sure that even if I were a level three mall ninja with a shirken of power I'd still think of attacking a large, angry dog with a knife as a pretty bad idea.

Dogs tend to get REALLY PISSED OFF REALLY FAST when they're wounded.

How fast? Blink your eye for a clue.

Another issue is strength.

How strong? IIRC, a dog is something like three times as strong per lb as a man - if it's a big dog like Cosmo's above, thnk of being attacked by a large linebacker with insanely great coordination and large pointy teeth.

*shudder* nasty stuff.

-

[Sleeping Dog]

a while back an off duty cop shot dead a local man's dog for fear of his children as the dog rounded the corner and was supposedly threatening, that aspect was disputed, but I doubt anything came of it.

Key word: Cop. Different rules apply.

Regards.

[The Crazy Gobbo]

My family lived in the Bahamas for three years. :p We observed some very poor handling of guard dogs. Also, more than one attack. A 200 pound, well muscled man, with a machette in hand, has little chance against a charging 100lb dog. His friend might, but that's small consolation.

Minor observation, you don't want to get hit with a machette. :eek:


I have to say, at the end of Page 1 I was trying to sort out in my head the exact angle at which the horns in Cosmoline's head grew out. :evil:

Past that I had a good chuckle watching others trying to make clear their thoughts. I could just see 10 or 11 other jurors beating you to death with leftover takeout chopsticks so they could get the job done.

Post #54 Cosmoline
"Only if it's off its owner's property or you reasonably believe it's about to come off its property."

That's pretty clear, eh?

[Lupinus]

Nice picture of the big bad doggy :rolleyes:
I never said I'd come out unscathed, I said I wouldn't let a dog get at my kids cause the only weapon I had was a knife and that I would win. I never said a word about being superman ninja and coming out without a scratch. Let ot break my arm and rip it up. Hell let him tear it up so bad I wind up loosing it. My little girls still have their faces and you got a dead dog. But then Im dead cause your mangey mutt attacked me and you blew my head off splattering my brains on my kids faces :rolleyes: .
You have guard dogs put up a real fence of don''t leave them unsupervised. Otherwise you are a complete moron that doesn't deserve a dog let alone a gun.

In simpler terms for you- Never said it would be the best weapon for the job or it would mean coming out unscathed, but it will get the job done.

My family lived in the Bahamas for three years. We observed some very poor handling of guard dogs. Also, more than one attack. A 200 pound, well muscled man, with a machette in hand, has little chance against a charging 100lb dog. His friend might, but that's small consolation.
Did super dog walk away without a scratch cause of its built in super dog body armor?

[Cosmoline]

You seem unable or unwilling to understand the distinct points I was making. As far as attacking a guard dog with a knife it's really rather simple. You don't want to reach your arm in there to stab at it, because that action exposes your arm and your vitals to attack while at the same time putting you off balance and bringing your upper body closer to the dog's level. That's why I keep saying use a stick or a club or anything that allows you to use leverage and major muscle groups, stay upright, protect your vitals and keep some distance from the dog. I really don't think you've been nailed by a big dog before or you wouldn't be continuing to make these claims. There's a sudden POW as the animal's fangs hit you. By the time your brain processes the fact that you've just been bitten badly, the dog has hit you a few more times. Being bitten triggers some deep and instinctive terror in a human. I've been nailed while breaking up dog fights and it's quite an eye-opener. And those were minor bites that had no real intent behind them and were mostly absorbed by my carharts.

And even if you're dealing with one of the 90% of big dogs who are BLUFFING you don't want to stab at them. Even a big coward of a dog who will certainly run off if you challenge him or thwap him on the head will fight like a tiger if you stab him. And the first thing he'll hit is your hand with the knife. It's even preferable to kick a dog than try to stab it with a knife. Again it allows you to stay upright and pits a major muscle group and large leg bones against the dog, not the tiny muscles and fragile bones of your hand and forearm.

Putting all legal issues aside, what I'm offering is sound tactical advise based on many years of being around big guard dogs and seeing how they fight and attack. You might seriously wound or kill the dog with a lucky knife strike. K9 dogs have been killed that way. But they aren't STOPPED with a knife slash. They die later on after they calm down and bleed out.

[MFH]

Something else to be considered. It may not be as simple as the entire front yard being private property. In most municipalities, there are easements for utility or street work. Most people do not realize that at any time deemed necessary, part of the front yard can become a construction zone. With that in mind, it may even be illegal to construct a fence within the easement. Or at best may require a waiver or permit to place it there and even then there is the understanding that if needed, it will be destroyed. The city easements in this case would probably be more than 2 feet from the sidewalk. The owner at least was stupid in placing the fence that close to the sidewalk,especially with animals that are aggressive as these apparantly are. The fact that this was "invisible" fence should not make any difference legally, other than you can get away with it since it is not visible to the average person.....That location may be one reason that the fence was unmarked.

FWIW

MFH

[ArmedBear]

MFH-

True regarding private property, as well as fences, signage, etc. An invisible fence should at least have a sign, and probably doesn't count, legally, as a fence.

Realistically, though, someone with a couple of human-aggressive guard dogs and an invisible fence is obviously trying to scare people off. To me, that means that they are probably involved in something like the drug trade. Around here, that's what it means, even in a good neighborhood. It could be the high-end drug trade, but it's probably something illegal they're into. They don't want anyone even going to the door, but they also want to scare people.

So, I'd say the best course of action is to move on. If a dog attacks you or your family, shoot it, and THEN move on, quickly. You don't want to pit your carry pistol against a pissed-off drug dealer/producer with a full-auto.

The point? The situation described tells me things that go WAY beyond a potential threat from a guard dog. WAY beyond.

[Atticus]

That's a beautiful Shepard Cosmoline - my favorite breed! I used to have a 75 lb female that would have made some nice pups with that guy.

Some good points brought up here in spite of a few "rough spots". Thanks

[The Crazy Gobbo]

Lupinus, the dog did not walk away. The man initially attacked did not have the time to strike the dog mid air, I wouldn't either, but back to the ground with the dog on top his friend was able to give the dog a really good whack. :uhoh: The dog was observed to have, well, lost its head, or at least most of it. :what:

To loosely quote David Koresh, "a tank can run over my body, but I'll be biting the track." Even if its with a pool noodle, I'm going to be between an attacking dog and my family. With ya there. :)

Cosmoline, you don't have to let your dog know you told me, but, he's chasing flies, isn't he? :D Our female rottweiler would even catch the occasional bee/wasp if it didn't interrupt her afternoon naps. ;)