[MMcCall]

I realize that autos are easier to fire in certain situations, like prone, etc., but other that that, why should I choose one over a pump?

I like semi shotguns in theory, but I don't see why they're twice as much as pumps. I know a little less than nothing about shotguns, so any advice from you old timers, err, experienced users would be useful ;)

[hondo68]

If you were injured and only had one good hand you could still shoot.

[Hkmp5sd]

Autoloaders have less recoil than a pump and in a stressful situation, a person that rarely or never practices with the shotgun they keep for home defense can panic and not think to pump the action. With the autoloader, they just point and pull the trigger. K.I.S.S. principle.

[Bainx]

Although I have some autos, I lost all kinds of faith in their reliability when I saw not one, but two, fail during a sheet shoot at my place with in-laws. There were only five shot guns there. Two semis failed with gas ring/seal problems almost right-out-of-the-chute. The two pumps and SXS went on blazing.

[jthuang]

Can't short-shuck an auto.

Also, if you're accustomed to semi-auto rifles, you can find commonality of weaponry with a semi-auto shotgun. I use a semi-auto AR15 quite frequently and I found that I would forget to pump my buddy's Winchester 1300 Defender during skeet rounds. My Benelli M1 usually does the pumping for me. :)

Justin

[MMcCall]

Hmm.. all these are good answers about "why an auto vs. a pump", but I'm still curious why they're so much more expensive. Parts is parts, right? Put in these parts, you make an auto, put in those parts, you make a pump?

Plus, aren't semi shotguns subject to more of the Crime Bill that pumps?

(I'm still more likely to get a semi than a pump, I just want to have reassuring thoughts going through my head when I reach for the checkbook ;))

[rugerfreak]

I have 2 semi's---a 12ga and 20ga---both Berettas---they are lightweight and fit me "right"-----although not all semi's can be considered lightweight.

The things I like about them is the recoil reduction and you don't have to think about operating the action and just concentrate on the target and shooting.

The Beretta system also doesn't use those stupid O-rings like on the Remington.

[TIMC]

why an auto vs. a pump

The biggest reason for me is just one less thing to think about when shooting at fast targets moving in opposite directions.

as far as faliures my 391 which I picked up used has yet to fail one time.

Low recoil is also a plus with the auto's but my O/U is still my favorite for Skeet. I like the auto for trap.

I have used pump guns for the better part of 20 years and have always liked them. Today I don't even own a pump. I guess taste change over the years.

[Dave McCracken]

I doubt I'm completely objective about this, but here's some long held and informed opinions....

What we call autos covers a few different styles and designs. There's few universals, but there are some common probs, and non common advantages to some designs.

Gas autos have that reduced felt recoil thing going. This is a MAJOR selling point for obvious reasons.Blowback operated autos do not have the major reduction like gas autos, but do have some reduction and tend to work in worse conditions.

All autos are dirt sensitive. Newer designs and better cleaning methods have improved this, but no auto I know of will continue to function in conditions that many pumps will handle.

Autos tend to be more ammo sensitive. The old A-5s worked wonderfully well with heavy loads, but oft glitched on target fodder.IOW, the pump has a greater variety to its ammo.

A decent 12 gauge pump can handle anything from 3/4 oz, 1000 FPS cream puffs to the barnburners.

And while I've not seen an auto with a clean, crisp, safe 3.5 lb trigger, I'm only 56.

As for one handed firing with autos, try it. Some autos will glitch up if not pulled back hard into the shoulder cup.

As for prone, I've shot pumps prone, and had little trouble so doing.Worst I can say is the support side elbow abrades.

IMO,an auto may be a good hunting or target tool, but for Crisis Management I want a pump.

And finally, how mnay 870s can be bought for the price of a 391?

[Gary G23]

Every time I go to the gun club I normally shoot a case of ammo. That turns into work when you're shooting a pump.

[MoNsTeR]

And while I've not seen an auto with a clean, crisp, safe 3.5 lb trigger, I'm only 56.
Guess I'm just lucky, got one on my first try! My Beretta A303 has a better trigger than any factory Remington pump or auto on the planet ;)

[Dave McCracken]

You are lucky. Even a 303 fan like Bruce Buck talks about Timney-izing his.

OTOH, the only 870 out of 5 here with a trigger heavier than 4 lbs is the 20 gauge. Two came like that, and two needed a little attention from a good smith. And the 20's cleaner than most.

[MMcCall]

I guess it's unfortunately going to come down to money, much like everything else lately.

[Robby from Long Island]

About 10 years ago I purchased my first shotgun. A Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical with 8 round capacity, an 18 1/2" barrel, ghost ring sights and pistol grip/shoulder stock combo.

I originally bought it because it sounded at the time like the antis were going to get their way with the banning of many different type guns and this was one of them. Therefore, I definitely had to have one.

Up until then I had never even fired a shotgun so I really had nothing to compare it to. The only comparison I could make was my pre-ban Colt HBAR and if you like the feel of an AR-15, you would like the feel of the M1.

I have to admit, I'm not a shotgun person at all even though I have very recently bought a Winchester Defender 1300 with an 8 shot capacity. While I'm now getting used to the pump, the auto is still my favorite. Maybe I'm just lazy but that's the way it is.

My varmint rifles are what get my attention, much more so than either handguns or shotguns so I really can't give a "true" shotgunners response as many of the above fellas have.

Safe shooting.

[BlkHawk73]

I choose the one that appeals to me the most and fits me the best regardless of what action type is is. I do have an auto (Benelli) but also have a pump and an bolt-action. Each has it's own purpose. choose what fits your needs and appeals to you not what the majority has!

[Smoke]

It's kinda like a transmission in a car.....

Some like autos, some like manual.

Hmm.. all these are good answers about "why an auto vs. a pump", but I'm still curious why they're so much more expensive. Parts is parts, right? Put in these parts, you make an auto, put in those parts, you make a pump?

Lets use the transmission analogy again. Its not as simple as put it these parts instead of those. Auto guns are designed differently than pumps. Same with transmissions. You have to pay for parts, technology, engineering, etc. Does an Auto tranny cost the same as a manual?

[MMcCall]

Does an Auto tranny cost the same as a manual?

Maybe not on the sticker, but it is after I get my haggle on ;)

I think I'm going to scratch my auto shotgun itch with a 12-ga. Saiga. Can't beat $300 for a mag-fed semi shotgun. Not to mention it's cheap enough I can bowflage it without feeling guilty.

Should be interesting to see the reaction from the Benelli and Beretta snobs that I see at my range :evil:

[Sir Galahad]

I've heard a lot of good things about the Saiga. There's an LEO over at ammolab who swears by the Saiga. It's probably the best deal going for a semi-auto shotgun. The design is Kalashnikov reliable, chrome-lined bore, and you can get extra mags for it. You cannot go wrong with a Kalashnikov.

[Braz]

M1,

That's a nice 1st shotgun Robby. I have a 1300 and I'm happy with it, but I'd like to have a simi-auto. The new Rem 1100 competition master has a video showing what a pro can do.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/1100_competition_master.htm

Imagine 80 thirty caliber balls going down range in 3 seconds. That's serious firepower.

[Robby from Long Island]

Braz,

That new Remington competition model looks pretty good. Definitely a lot of firepower.

There should be a write-up in one of the gun magazines pretty soon.

That new 12 gauge Saiga ought to generate a lot of interest, at least from everything I've read. Might be another one to consider.

Safe shooting.

[labgrade]

But, something to consider is that any semi-(machine-operated system) can only be fired as quickly as that system is designed to be cycled.

A manually-operated system can be operated quicker a(ny) semi can cycle, based only on the skill of the operater.

Witness Ed McGivern & (?) Brian Enos - with DA revolvers.
(I'm having total brain fade as to some names .... )

These speed records - with accuracy - are made with manual systems.

'Course, I haven't kept up with SGs & have seen some amazing 1st-hand shooting w/Benellis.

& Dave's correct about the pumps eating anything at all - and, about the supporting arm eating a bit of roughage sometimes in prone - my only reason not to have a pump & one position that has never come into play with a SG - 40+ years.

BTW, I have still yet to ever shoot a semi shotgun .... crazy, huh?

[Dave McCracken]

Lab, perhaps you're thinking of Jerry Miculek, the revolver ace(8 shots in under 2 seconds,IIRC) who did a very fast COF on American Shooter with an 870. 5 targets, 2.5 seconds.

The big prob with that Saiga seems to be the box mag. Kinda eliminates low prone. And like most K guns, it has an industrial trigger.

[foghornl]

One of my brothers is a guy with well lets say less "physical presence" than a lot of us 5' 6", 145 Lbs. Other brothers 870 pounds him pretty good with the same loads he can comfortably use in his 1100. He only shot my synthetic stocked lightweigt Maverick 88 ONCE, using 3" mag #4 (My preferred Duck load, untill we had to use steel shot)

[labgrade]

"perhaps you're thinking of Jerry Miculek, ... "

That's the guy. Told ya = brain fade.

JM, IIRC, also did the speed-shoot with a 10/22 on the "outdoors sprortsman-thingy." ... Or, it coulda been ona the Clark Bros ....

[Navy joe]

If you were injured and only had one good hand you could still shoot

870 can be easily run single handedly. If doing it for myself I toss the gun between hand on comb and hand on forearm, always shooting the gun from a shouldered position. I know it's supposedly gun abuse to cycle the gun by holding the forearm and cycling it like that, but the Remington takes it well. With spectators present I pick one foot of the ground so as to make a place to rest the butt of the gun on my upper thigh, then cycle the slide against the weight of the gun. A little slower, but not much. Helps to practice as holding the thing shouldered one handed will get a lil tough on the weak of grip.

[Dave McCracken]

Navy Joe,back when the Miami shootout was fresh news, we instructors for MD DOC tried to figure out the best way to cycle an 870 one handed. After burning up some discretionary ammo and lunch hours, we came up with two methods that seemed to work best.

First, trap the butt between the arm and side in the armpit, and shoot by moving the firing hand back and forth. One runs the last finger or two on that hand under the action to keep the weapon level when moving from Point A to B.

Second, same mount but leave the firing hand in position. After shooting shove the whole weapon forward hard and then back to chamber the next one. This takes considerable arm strength, but an adrenaline charge makes it easier.

Needless to say, best to practice these before need.

HTH...

[sm]

Autoloaders reduce the felt recoil , nice for extended shooting like skeet, trap, S/C. Teaching a new shooter, especially a tyro, an 1100 20 ga is very good IMO. The confidence of busting targets, not developing a flinch--due to recoil, allows the new shooter to learn proper skills, and keeps them interested in the sport. The basic skills, well learned are easily transitioned to 12 ga and other platforms.

Pumps: In my day one learned on a manual trans. Probably still a good idea. Pumps are reliable, not ammo sensitive, and take abuse. Actually 'some' people shoot the pump better. Huh? On a pump you fire, shuck, re-aquire target. One whom has learned or shoots as I do the 'old fashioned' swing-through method, means I'm gonna come up from behind, matching angle, speed,...etc., continuing through the target.[ Some call it bird, belly, beak, boom]. Autoloader shooter may 'just blast away', zipping to find target so to speak.

I competed with a autoloader, Super X model 1, I found Bristers' tests to be spot on, the most reliable auto in all kinds of conditions. I like the pumps because I learned on them, and I still chuckle when a pump beats the guy the high dollar O/U. I like a free soda and candy bar when that happpens.

One hand and the pump. I have used a method similer to Dave's. Just happened and made it up out of "What If". Other method was keeping control with firing hand and using "cover" to rack slide, support, fire and repeat. Everything has to be just right , but it works, gives the forearm character too.;)

[Navy joe]

I tried, I can't get my head around those methods. As I have good arm strength I'll keep tossing my shotgun around. It works. I like being able to have the same cheekweld and point as two handing it.

[Manny]

I've had an 870, a Winchester 1300 and an old Sears pump over the years and never really cared for any of them. I really wanted to like the 870 but it was my least favorite, just didn't feel good. First time I picked up a Benelli M1 S90 it felt right and I knew I'd found my shotgun. It's been rock reliable for me and I hit good with it. Sure wish they sold them cheaper, but thats my only gripe. I learned that for me a least the money is secondary to the feel, as much as my budget wishes I liked mossbergs, the only one I do like is the Benelli.
Manny

[riverdog]

Shooting Skeet the other day one of the guys brought a Remington 1100 (20 ga IIRC) and had numerous failures to eject due to the soft target loads. He had lots of trouble with doubles. He has a number of shotguns, so this one will probably stay home from now on, either that or he'll switch to field loads. OTOH my $225 Rem 870 continued to function flawlessly. There's no doubt in my mind that a pump is the best "first" shotgun.

[Dave McCracken]

Amen, Riverdog. Regardless of what other fine shotguns someone may have, a battery without an 870 is sadly lacking. For a first shotgun, it's the best choice, mayhap.

Before I get lynched in Effigy by outraged Benelli, Mossberg, Ithaca, and other brand loyal pumpgunners, I'm not dumping on your choices. They're good guns.If you shoot them well, fine with me. But 40 years plus of unblemished 870 use under many diverse conditions and missions leave me biased and judgemental as heck.

The 870 has an unmatched rep for working no matter what and no matter what mission. Bet some are being used even as I speak packed with Iraqi and Afghan sand, and I also bet they're working fine.

And yes, I know the 590 is the Milspec shotgun, but I keep seeing 870s on the news and know from experience how non-GI shotguns show up toted by GIS where the Wild Things Are. GIs are pragmatic, they go with what works....

[Leaky Waders]

I prefer autos....everyone in my duckblind last year did.

*they have faster follow-up shots...I know everyone will debate this...but for the average shooter who has a semiautomatic rifle, the similarities in shooting habitually carry over. (The same could be true for someone who used a pump rifle/pump shotgun).

*they are quieter in the carry...there's no slide rail slapping about when your carrying it through the woods. I know that a well kept pump may not be a rattler, but as you can see from this passionate group here...they keep their pumps for years...it's worse than my thread bare favorite pair of underwear...they just keep going and going until poof...one day the drier fairy takes them.

*my auto fits me better than the pumps I've tried. Better fit = more comfortable shooting, regardless of the action. Mine's gas operated so it gets the bonus of lower recoil too (Beretta A390st).

I've had pumps before and really enjoyed them. But I still prefer auto's for the most part.

As for the best 1st shotgun...I'd say (if they all cost the same) a double would be best for starters. It's less mechanical in nature and easier to use for the casual shooter. Imagine having a cousin visit you for the weekend...they are constantly asking/tasking you how to load/unload the auto or pump you've loaned them. While a double has like 3 moving parts - the safety, the latch and the trigger. But, since they don't all cost the same, then I'd vote for the pump as a god first choice learner's gun.

As far as shooting different loads...show me a man w/ one shotgun and I'll show you someone who could really give a flip about diverse loads. Most shotgun owners have several for specific applications - home defense, wetlands, upland game, skeet etc. I'd recommend purchasing the type of gun (use) w/ the action that you feel most comfortable w/ and the gun w/ the best ergonomics (fit)...then you'd be happy for a while - until you justified your next purchse ;)

Well...just my two cents...I would like to add, if your rich uncle visited you this weekend and said "Lets go to the sporting good store, I'll buy you any shotgun you want." Nine out of ten dentists would pick an auto or double...the tenth would be trying to pry the trident gum from his belt after just Sh#$%^$# on himself surprised by his uncle's gift ;)

- L. W.