Black hills 75 grain HP 223/MK 262 MOD O


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Tady45
November 9, 2005, 11:37 PM
Well, ordered a bunch of Black Hills 75 grain 223 HP 's today...By the way, got them from North West Loading supply, in WA state. Ken, (the owner) is a very nice gentlemen to work with. Now, i bought these heavier rounds as a result of a article I read, about a FED unit in Iraq. The moral or the story is that these 75 grain HP's have stopping power that say a 52 grain would not...What do you guys say..? By the way...I THINK the military call these rounds MK 262 MOD 0...Are they the same rounds? Does a heavier 223 remove concerns about this round?

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Langenator
November 10, 2005, 12:24 AM
Most of the concerns come from rounds fired from the short barreled (14.5") M4. The 62 gr SS109 round was optimized for a 20" barrel.

The 75 grainers are also optimized for the 20" barrel, especially at longer ranges. But they do pack more of a punch than the 62s

nipprdog
November 10, 2005, 06:58 AM
What do you guys say..?
what is the twist rate of your rifle?

MartinS
November 10, 2005, 08:54 AM
Try shooting some water jugs with a witness board behind. See what happens, maybe the longer bullet, with whatever twist rate you have, will yaw quicker.

355sigfan
November 10, 2005, 09:15 AM
Most of the concerns come from rounds fired from the short barreled (14.5") M4. The 62 gr SS109 round was optimized for a 20" barrel.

The 75 grainers are also optimized for the 20" barrel, especially at longer ranges. But they do pack more of a punch than the 62s


Your only giving up range with the shorter barrel. Since most gun fights even in the military context happen close its not much of an issue. There is no point in my opinon for a 20 inch 5.56. This round is a cqb tool. Its not at its best at long range anyway. Why try to make it something its not. its great from 0 to 300 yards or so depending on the ammo. If you need to have stopping power at long range get a 308. Thats what battle rifles are for.
Pat

Don't Tread On Me
November 10, 2005, 09:22 AM
The 75's basically give the 5.56 "5.45" yawing characteristics. That plus fragmentation and greater weight makes for a much more lethal package.

Zak Smith
November 10, 2005, 01:04 PM
Black Hills 75 or 77gr New Mfgr or Reman ("red" or "blue" box) is NOT Mk262 Mod whatever. The Mk262 ammunition is loaded 100-150fps hotter than the commercially available Black Hills ammunition.

The Mk262 uses a 77gr bullet, either Sierra or Nosler.

A 77gr bullet will stabilize just fine from a 1:8" twist or faster (eg. 1:7"). Reports indicate that some 1:9" twist barrels will shoot 75-77gr bullets out to 200 yards, but success is not guaranteed.

The 75gr Hornady bullet has a shorter "neck region" in its wound profile than the 77gr Sierra, giving it slightly better terminal ballistics. They violenty fragment within the first 5", and continue to penetrate to 10-14". They will fragment at lower velocity than M855 or M193.

The 75-77gr bullets will have superior terminal effects against unarmored targets compared to M193 or M855, at any range when fired from the same rifle.

See http://www.ammo-oracle.com for more info.


Q. What about Mk262 or Mk262 Mod1?

Due to the poor performance of M855 ammunition, particularly in short-barreled carbines of 10.5-14.5" in length, Navy SEALs, and eventually other SOCOM units, began experimenting with using loads originally designed for marksmanship units for combat. It was soon discovered that while these loads were both very accurate and had excellent terminal ballistics even from short barrels, the loads weren't quite ideal for combat. The target bullets had no cannelure, and the bullets weren't crimped in place, which could allow bullet set-back during feeding and raise chamber pressures to dangerous levels. Further, most loads were of somewhat mild velocities, as the load was chosen with accuracy, not terminal ballistics, in mind.

Sierra was asked to produce a bullet cannelured version, but they intially refused.

Nosler did not have any problems putting a cannelure on their 77 gr bullet. Black Hills Ammunition was approached to make a slightly modified version of these loads for combat use. A cannelure was specified, the bullets were to be crimped, and the load was to be up to military chamber pressures, with maximum safe velocity being desired. The primers were to be crimped and sealed, and of course, overall length had allow for loading in standard magazines.

The Marines (in conjunction with a large Federal LE agency) did extensive testing of this large experimental batch of BH loaded Nosler 77 gr cannelured OTM's in the Fall of 2002. It offered outstanding terminal performance out to the maximum test distance of 300 yards. They then ordered 1.1 million rounds of cannelured 77 gr OTM's via the existing Mk262 SOCOM contract (which did not specify a manufacturer) administered through Crane. The cannelured 77 gr load was designated Mk262 Mod 1, and the orginal Mk262 was re-designated Mk262 Mod 0.




According to one observer: "At this point bureaucracy, nepostism, and capitalism converged. Sierra realized they were about to lose a VERY LARGE contract and suddenly they agreed to make the 77 gr SMK with a cannelure. Crane pushed for Sierra to get the contract over Nosler, although the Nosler offered better terminal performance. On the other hand, in all fairness, the Sierra bullet was slightly more accurate out of government test barrels than the Nosler--both shoot nearly the same out of real rifles, such as the by then type classified Mk12 SPR."

Therefore, while a few hundred-thousand rounds of 77 gr Nosler OTM was manufactured and used primarily for testing, the cannelured 77 gr SMK was used in the the multi-million round contract for the Mk262 Mod 1.

Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk262 Mod1. As of April 2004, Mk 262 Mod1 has seen extensive use in Afghanistan and Iraq, in carbines with barrels as short as 10.5", and has proven to be very effective at ranges that M855 is woefully inadequate from the same weapons. It is also commonly used in the Army's "Special Purpose Rifles" (SPRs), which are accurized 18"-barreled rifles used by soldiers with additional combat marksmanship training in a squad sharp-shooter role.


http://www.ammo-oracle.com/images/75tap.jpg

MTMilitiaman
November 10, 2005, 02:48 PM
I was going to bring up that the military version had a cannelure while the commercial version does not but the article Zak posted already brought that up.

Tady45
November 10, 2005, 04:05 PM
So then are the MK262's available, or are they only for LEO / Military use?

Zak Smith
November 10, 2005, 04:06 PM
Rejects are periodically available from different sources such as Fulton Armory or Cabellas. Hornady makes a 75gr TAP "NATO" sold only with LEO letterhead, which is the hot spec also.

Don't Tread On Me
November 10, 2005, 05:38 PM
Well, it is nice to get the extra FPS...and the cannelure is great too, but the black-box Hornady TAP is just fine. It is significantly better than regular military ball ammo. The rest is just splitting hairs. Get that and you've almost doubled the terminal performance of your rifle. No need to stress out looking for the NATO variety. Unless of course you'd like to brag about having some.

Zak Smith
November 10, 2005, 05:42 PM
+1

Buy yourself some Black Hills Blue Box (reman) 75 or 77gr (or 68-69gr if you have 1:9") twist and shoot it until you can hit 10" targets to 400 yards from field positions, or silhouettes to 500-600. There's no point in having a small stash of "Super Ammo" if you can't shoot it regularly to maintain zero and train enough with it to know hold-overs.

-z

Don't Tread On Me
November 10, 2005, 06:36 PM
Exactly!


For cheap practice ammo that mimics my defense loads, I take LC or Winchester military brass, and load it with 68gr Hornandy BTHP, CCI 556 mil primers...


If not, get that blue box. It's more lethal than 855 or 193 and its a "practice" ammo...lol

artherd
November 10, 2005, 06:37 PM
Buy yourself some Black Hills Blue Box (reman) 75 or 77gr (or 68-69gr if you have 1:9") twist and shoot it until you can hit 10" targets to 400 yards from field positions, or silhouettes to 500-600. There's no point in having a small stash of "Super Ammo" if you can't shoot it regularly to maintain zero and train enough with it to know hold-overs.
+100

ctchapman
December 10, 2005, 10:23 PM
Well, it is nice to get the extra FPS...and the cannelure is great too, but the black-box Hornady TAP is just fine. It is significantly better than regular military ball ammo. The rest is just splitting hairs. Get that and you've almost doubled the terminal performance of your rifle. No need to stress out looking for the NATO variety. Unless of course you'd like to brag about having some.

If you want terminal velocity out of a 223 try the 223 wssm, you will not be disappointed. For the rest, has anyone tried the Winchester silver tips, they are available in several weights and work very well out to 400 yard on white tail and smaller critters

444
December 11, 2005, 12:11 AM
Can anyone give me the muzzle velocity of the military Mk262 (or whatever it is called) ? The heavy 77 grain bullet muzzle velocity ?

Alex45ACP
December 11, 2005, 12:41 AM
Only problem is, the stuff is so expensive.

Regular 5.56mm ball ammo is pricy enough, and hard to find at the moment :(

ARperson
December 11, 2005, 01:20 AM
Bother. Just reload your own and get exactly what you want. :p

Zak Smith
December 11, 2005, 12:46 PM
Basically, it's 120-180fps faster than the Black Hills commercial 75-77gr.

-z

yesterdaysyouth
December 11, 2005, 04:14 PM
Can anyone give me the muzzle velocity of the military Mk262 (or whatever it is called) ? The heavy 77 grain bullet muzzle velocity ?


2615fps

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