Remington Enfield P17. Worth $330?


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Redlg155
April 1, 2003, 09:34 PM
Looking at a local Milsurp dealer I found a Remington Enfield P17 in pretty good condition. Other than the wood being really dark, it is a pretty nice rifle. If I'm not mistaken, the stock has what appears to be the ordnance flaming bomb stamped on it. It is also chambered in 30-06. All metal stampings seem to be clean and legible. Other than that I don't know too much about the rifle.


Anyway..I have no clue on what these are going for these days. They seem pretty high when compared to other Milsurp rifles, but it definitely has my interest. I might just go down and put a couple of bucks to hold it.

Good Shooting
Red

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Art Eatman
April 1, 2003, 10:53 PM
I saw two of them at the Tallahassee gunshow, a couple of years back. One was okay; the other was pretty doggy. Roughly, the asking for the dog was around $400 or a bit over; the decent one had an asking price of over $600. I had a distinct lack of interest...

Haven't seen many around, so $330 might not be too bad.

Have you checked any of the other sites?

Art

Gordon
April 1, 2003, 11:14 PM
If its a real clean Remington or Winchester that would be a good price . Eddystones are going for $300 or less unless exceptional. A mint Remington is my favorite of any Milsurp bolt guns.

Redlg155
April 1, 2003, 11:34 PM
Have you checked any of the other sites? ]

I've looked at a couple of other sites, mostly Parallax's Curio and Relic sites and found some information, but it doesn't seem that these 1917 Remingtons recieved the same amount of popularity of something like the 03 Springfields. More than likely this is probably due to the smaller number of rifles produced.

If I'm mistaken this one has "Remington Model of 1917" stamped on the reciever. I'll have to take a peek this Thursday for more information and to check on the condition of the bore.

Good Shooting
Red

swingset
April 2, 2003, 04:10 AM
Look for maker's stamps on the small parts. If it's all matching, all Win or Eddystone, that will make it worth a bit more. Also, bore condition is a big determinate of price, obviously.

Sounds like a fair deal, IMHO.

Jack19
April 2, 2003, 09:51 AM
Go ask over at Parallax, they know everything about milsurps over there.

Parallax (http://pub109.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums)

Tamara
April 2, 2003, 11:03 AM
The prices of all U.S. milsurps have gone crazy of late, but the 1917's probably the least crazy. I'd cheerfully pay $330 for a decent one. (It's my favorite WWI rifle; I could just sit and fiddle with the rear sight alone all day.)

Art Eatman
April 2, 2003, 11:59 AM
Gee, Tam...

Nah, won't say it. :D

My first-ever centerfire was an old '17. Musta burned up close to a thousand rounds of GI stuff, that first summer of pasture-wandering. My uncle's comment was that there wasn't a rock or tree on the ranch that I hadn't shot. :)

Art

Redlg155
April 3, 2003, 04:32 PM
I spent the last couple of days thinking of the Enfield, so much that I went and took a couple of bucks out for a down payment. Went in for one last inspection and after about ten minutes of scrubbing I found the bore beyond redemption. :(

Needless to say I was pretty dissapointed because the price was good. The bolt looked to be in excellent condition. No obvious wear marks and the firing pin hole was sharp and uniform. No impact marks from extended firing was evident on the bolt face, which lead me to believe the bolt was switched given the condition of the barrel.

Oh well...you can't win them all.

Good Shooting
Red

BHP9
April 3, 2003, 08:22 PM
If you can find a U.S. Enfield for that price ($300 bucks) you had better grab it because they are going for $450 to $700 dollars in my neck of the woods and this is for beat up old rusted out junkers not mint condition guns which basically no longer exist except in advanced collections and they are naturally seldom if ever for sale unless the owner happens to pass away.

U. S. Enfields were made in far greater numbers than any of the 03 Springfields and are considered by the old time gun writers (most of whom forgot more than most modern gun writers will ever know) to be the better rifle as opposed to the 03 Springfield.

So what in the hell happened to all of them? Most were given away to foreign countries like China during WWII. But do not ever expect to buy any re-imported mint condition x-chinese owned weapons because they were not very well cared for or seldom cleaned after corrosive ammo was fired in them. Sadly most weapons still in the U.S. are in similiar shape with rusted out barrels found in most of them.

Rebarreling can sometimes run up the cost to more than the gun is worth and of course destroys the collector value of them.

Some things to look out for when collecting the U.S. Enfield.

Eddystone rifles had very brittle receivers much like was was encountered in eary low number 03 Springfields. Many were rebarreled both by the Government and by local gunsmiths with original gov't barrels but in the process many of the brittle recievers cracked. This can be readily seen by removing the stock and pouring a rapidly evaporating liquid on the reciever of the weapon that will often reveal the hairline crackes. Weapons in this condition should never be fired.

Remington made Enfields suffered from the opposite condition often being found with very soft recievers and excess headspace. Once again if you have one check out the headspace before you shoot it.

Winchester made Enfields were considered the cream of the crop and bring the highest collector prices but like all U.S. Enfields are extremely scarce even in beat up rusted out condition.

Not so long ago U.S. Enfields could be found in mint condition for as little as $150 dollars at many gun shows but this is a thing of the past as most either were destroyed (like most fine old miitary rifles) through the use of cheap corrosive ammo or went into long time advanced collections that become only available when the owner dies and then are auctioned off for very big bucks.

The lesson to be learned is this. Today some very fine weapons like the Swiss K31 can be presently bought for only a song (about $100) and only a few years ago when they were rare were bringing $450 dollars and up. This will very soon happen again. So if you find a quality weapon such as this or a quality Swedish Mauser for sale grab it now or you will soon find it in the same price catagory as the now almost extinct U.S. 1917 Enfield.

Sadly and in short if you do not alreay own a mint 1917 U.S. Enfield you probably never will unless you are willing to pay astronmically high prices for the very few original mint guns that are still in existence.

rennaissancemann
April 3, 2003, 09:20 PM
I really want to tap into your experience base. I have read about the problems that Springfields had with soft receivers in the pre-war years, but this is the first I've heard about the P14/P17 rifles having this problem.

Please share your sources, and the serial number ranges to watch out for.


Respectfully

Gordon
April 4, 2003, 01:42 AM
You are correct about the Eddystones but WRONG about Remingtons being soft. If pushed I'll Get John Lawson a WWII Ordinance officer to tell you exactly why the Remington was the Gubbamint choice to recon for secondary service duty. Also it is the choice of Art Alphin (spelling?) for his Hannibal series of DGR rifles and every other oldtime gunsmith. Ever hear of Mod 30 Remington?:banghead:

BHP9
April 4, 2003, 09:23 AM
You are correct about the Eddystones but WRONG about Remingtons being soft. If pushed I'll Get John Lawson a WWII Ordinance officer to tell you exactly why the Remington was the Gubbamint choice to recon for secondary service duty. Also it is the choice of Art Alphin (spelling?) for his Hannibal series of DGR rifles and every other oldtime gunsmith. Ever hear of Mod 30 Remington

Please remain calm. Everything is under control..

What often is not realized is that even the early low number Springfields where not all brittle. Some were and some were not. They were not all made bad.

I would be the first to admit that not all the Remingtons had soft recievers either. I am not an expert on this story of the soft Remingtons but they may have been early production runs and just as the problem of the brittle early 03's was finally corrected I imagine that the Remington problem was probably corrected as well. This would account for the strong reaction of some people on this matter especially those that have converted them to powerful sporting calibers and had no problem with them.

I really want to tap into your experience base. I have read about the problems that Springfields had with soft receivers in the pre-war years, but this is the first I've heard about the P14/P17 rifles having this problem.

Actually to my knowledge there were no "soft" 03 Springfield receivers, it was the opposite, they were to hard.


I once saw a demostration many, many years ago where a man hit a low number '03 Springfield with of all things a plastic hammer and give it only a light tap and the reciever shattered before my very eyes. That was a shocking sight.

Hey thanks for your reply and although I can definately tell you where I read about the brittle Enfields (which was in the American Rifleman magazine from many, many years ago,) I just read about the soft Remington recievers about a year ago and I cannot remember wether it was in the "American Rifleman" or perhaps in "The Rifle" magazine.

I read about every magazine on guns that is out there and my basement is stacked to the ceiling with magazines as far back as 1949. So some times I do lose track of what magazine and what issue I read something in. And at the other end of the basement it is piled up with gun books. I wish I had all of it on computer so all I would have to do is punch in a queastion and come up with the book or the magazine that had info on the subject in question.

If you belong to the NRA, and every gun owner should, you could write them a letter and they may be able to give you the production years and serial number ranges of the Soft Remington Recievers.

Redlg155
April 6, 2003, 03:37 PM
Ok..I went back for another look. For some reason I keep getting drawn back to this particular rifle. Looked at the bore one more time and got a couple of opinions. Rifling is solid but there are small amounts of rust in there. I ran a bore brush through it a couple of times and things looked a bit better. Everything is shiny except for the darker spots. No snags were felt running those felt type Outers cleaning patches through it..so I take that as a good thing. Oh well..I think some more cleaning is in order to get the bore looking good.

Everything is looks great. Stock has a few dings, but more Issue wear than abuse and the crown looks very clean. I looked for some stampings on the metal and didn't find anything other than the Remington Model of 1917 marking. A small E is stamped on the bolt, but nothing on the reciever. The serial # is 591600. Can anyone give me a range of numbers by manufacturer?

Anyway, I got him down on the price. $289.00 out the door. Put some money down and I'll pick her up next payday! :D

Good SHooting
RED

Mike Irwin
April 6, 2003, 06:33 PM
P17?

No such critter. It an M1917. :)

P, for pattern, is British.

And speaking of which, I saw a P14 at the gun show today for $365. Decent condition, but I just don't know anything about the prices on these rifles.

I was very, very tempted, though.

Cosmoline
April 6, 2003, 08:34 PM
"The prices of all U.S. milsurps have gone crazy of late, but the 1917's probably the least crazy."

Too true! It just goes to show how absurd the collector's market can be. The Eddystones are superior in almost every respect to the Springfield 1903's. Heck, a VZ-24 is superior in almost every respect to any Springfield.

Adventurer_96
April 7, 2003, 02:31 AM
Eddystone rifles had very brittle receivers much like was was encountered in eary low number 03 Springfields.

This, to my understanding, is incorrect and based upon the prevalence of these rifles as surplus. I don't have source material but this is the story as I heard it shortly after I researched a 1917 "Enfield" over the summer. The Eddystone rifles were barreled with an extremely high amount of torque/force, and when these rifles were rebarreled, many receivers cracked. I believe that this myth has been propagated by the number of gunsmiths across the country who have run across Eddystone rifles that they tried to rebarrel which cracked, but it might have come from the ones that were rebarreled by Johnson Automatics in WWII. I've also heard that a small number were considered brittle and recalled, but the situation is very different than the so-called "low number" 1903s as the errant guns were recalled. The "Enfield" action is reputedly very strong, much stronger than is required for the .30-06 cartridge, which is why you see several custom rifles in larger or high-pressure calibers being built on these actions. The P14 actions I've seen have "Nitro Proof" marks, or something to that effect, stamped on the side.

If you do a search at the parallax board, and some of the others, there's lots of info. Here's a couple of links:

Link (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60918&highlight=eddystone)

Link (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60918&highlight=eddystone)

Tamara
April 7, 2003, 02:42 AM
Hey thanks for your reply and although I can definately tell you where I read about the brittle Enfields (which was in the American Rifleman magazine from many, many years ago,)

Hmmm... According to the NRA's An American Rifleman Report: Military Rifles, the problem with the Eddystones wasn't "brittle recievers", but the fact that the original barrels were installed very tightly by machine at the Eddystone plant, which could result in cracked reciever rings when rebarreled. Go figure.

Adventurer_96
April 7, 2003, 02:55 AM
Tamara:

Thank you for finding the source that I couldn't. :)

I just don't want people to overlook an otherwise excellent rifle because of a rumor which should be nipped in the bud.

Redlg155
April 7, 2003, 03:00 AM
It will be next week before I can bring her home for a good review of the markings. I did find an interesting site to look up Serial Number Manufacture Dates (http://oldguns.net/cgi-bin/f2f/f2f.pl?[url)

Did some searching and found a pic of an Eddystone reciever stamping. Mine is definitely a Remington and according to the site, made in November 1918.

Went in for one last inspection and after about ten minutes of scrubbing I found the bore beyond redemption.

Well..I said this earlier in the week. Perhaps the ten minutes of scrubbing and letting it sit a bit did it some good, because when I checked this time the condition was definitely better.

I did a check over at theCMP Website (http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm#m1917) and they wanted $425.00= $20.95 S&H for one, so I think I did pretty good. Not to mention that they are Sold Out....

They also had a great article that I will definitely have to finish reading by Dick Culver in PDF Format (http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/M1917.pdf)

Good Shooting
Red

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