Why doesn't Ruger or somebody make a 9mm w/ fixed barrel like a Mark II?


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WonderNine
April 1, 2003, 09:44 PM
That would be awesome, a single stack slim 9 or 10 shot with a fixed barrel 6" or whatever how come there is no :love: smily :D

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Mr. Purple
April 1, 2003, 09:58 PM
The 9mm is too powerful to be practical in a fixed barrel gun as this usually means blow back action or rotating bolt guns.

Beretta comes closest with both its 92/96 series with their falling locking blocks rather than the tilting barrel of the 1911, SIG, Glock, etc.

I believe that Beretta's cougar series uses a rotating barrel similar to the Colt (2000 all American I may be wrong with this designation the gun came in two forms one with a polymer frame the other with aluminum).

In both of these systems the barrel remains in the same plain even if not firmly fixed to the frame such as a Walther ppK.

Handy
April 1, 2003, 10:06 PM
Because a weapon that operates with the recoil and pressure of a 9mm generally needs something more complicated than a simple blowback action (like the MkII's) to function correctly. (Unless you want to make it really heavy.)

There are lots of designs for fixed barrel 9mms (or larger calibers), but because they are generally misunderstood and rarely seen by most shooters, they have received very little development outside of a few daring companies.

95% of all modern pistols 9mm and up have recoil actions loosely based on either one Browning or one Walther design. There are lots of way to skin a cat, but these are the only two anyone really bothers with.

If you want a cheap fixed barrel 9mm, look for a Benelli B76. The combat models can be had for $400 used. Other designs include the HK P9S, VP70 and P7, Steyr GB, Heritage Arms and the recalled Vector CP-1. The good ones all command high prices due to their rarity, quality and collectibility.

WonderNine
April 1, 2003, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have to check them out. What about the Luger pistol? Does anyone still make them? The recoil operation doesn't seem significantly different than a Mark II and it definately has the look. Alot of people think the Mark II's look like Lugers.

I really like the idea of having the sights on the barrel. Greater accuracy and all. I've had way too many autoloaders with crooked lockup.

10-Ring
April 1, 2003, 10:37 PM
My P7M8 has a fixed barrel ;) And I really like it alot :cool:

DT Guy
April 1, 2003, 10:51 PM
Handy, you stole the gun recommendation right out of my mouth! The B-76 is a remarkably accurate gun, at least the example in my safe is. Somewhat finnicky about ammo it's fed, but otherwise top drawer.

Did you see that CDNN has mags for CHEAP? I had two imported from Italy years ago for $70 each! Doh!

Larry

Handy
April 1, 2003, 11:02 PM
Yeah DT,

I've been monitoring the Benelli for awhile. It's system is supposed to be quite unique. You should buy some of those mags, it could be a great boost if you should ever choose to sell.

It's nice to know they are as accurate as I've suspected. I've toyed with the idea of getting one of Target models I've seen on the net. But I just bought a GB instead.

DT Guy
April 1, 2003, 11:07 PM
Handy,

I'm pretty, um, set for mags (whoa, wife alert!)..

My Benelli is good for an inch or an inch and a quarter at 25 yards with ammo it likes. Only prob is that it really prefers FMJs-HPs are generally a no-go.

If you can live with the FMJ thing, it's a GREAT gun. All hard-chromed internals and an exquisite locking action.

I've only seen the target in .32-a 9mm would be a real tempter.

Lary

WonderNine
April 1, 2003, 11:24 PM
No problem at all, I only shoot 9mm NATO FMJ :cool:

But if it chokes on hollowpoints, how reliable of a gun do you think it is?

Are they single action autos?

Handy
April 2, 2003, 02:14 AM
da/sa

Here's a target model:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976300881.htm


Lots of guns only feed ball. The stock 1911 is one. Maybe this thing could be throated, too.

makarov
April 2, 2003, 02:14 AM
I posted a while back that I thought a MK II in .380 would be neat. It could be made in a blowback action just like the standard MKII.

There have been 9mm guns with blowback designs, but the recoil spring is very stiff. Astra made one. Model 600 I think.

The Luger design uses a toggle link for it's mechanism. Very complicated compared to the MK II which is just a simple blowback design. They are similar in outward appearance though. Both classics.

I would buy a MK II in .380, but then again I like weird guns.

Triad
April 2, 2003, 02:36 AM
I'd like a gun like this too. I've been thinking along the lines of a pistol that is externally similar to the Ruger with a roller locking action like the P9. It could be adapted to the new PDW rounds used in the FN P90 and HK MP7, so it might attract police/military sales. Another bonus would be that you could have a bull barrel version with integral suppressor like you see with the Ruger .22's. The suppressed version would have the advantage of not requiring a recoil booster like the Browning locking method does and it wouldn't have any of the problems that can occur in suppressed weapons with moving barrels.

DT Guy
April 2, 2003, 11:41 AM
The Benelli is FMJ only mainly because of the grip angle-very acute, like a Luger, sort of. Steep feed angle, and I haven't seen anything that could be done about it.

It's a military design, which is why HPs didn't figure into the design.

DA/SA, AND cocked and locked.

Larry

BevrFevr
April 2, 2003, 12:20 PM
Don't subguns have fixed barrels and operate on blowback?

Aren't some subguns quite small?(mini uzi, mac's etc)

And aren't fixed barrel 9mm's out there already?

What is the name of the ugly ones that have a fixed barrel .45 that is cheap reliable and accurate? I forget. Oh wait it's a Hi Point right?

If you used a markII target with the a 6 inch bull barrel or better and a steel frame and put a really heavy spring behind the bolt it should work right?

I think it could be done. And it would be cool.

-bevr

Handy
April 2, 2003, 02:54 PM
For a blowback to work, it needs both a stong recoil spring AND a massive bolt (hence the enormous slide on the hipoint).

Even the Micro Uzi is huge and heavy compared to a big pistol. Mac-10s have a bolt full of lead.

A Mk2 has a tiny, light bolt. If you just upped the spring pressure with a light bolt, the bolt velocity and cycle time would be out of this world and the gun wouldn't feed, or work very long.

The Astra and VP70 seemed to do the blowback thing without too massive a slide, but it's a fine balance.

9mmepiphany
April 2, 2003, 05:52 PM
the smallest pure blowback in 9mm, that worked, had to be the detonics "pocket 9"...don johnson wore it on his ankle during the last season of "miami vice"

not a blowback, but is mitchell arms still making the stainless steel "luger"?

BevrFevr
April 2, 2003, 07:07 PM
Of course redesigning the bolt would be in order among other things. I don't know if you have seen the spring in a mk2 but they look like it came out of a bic pen or something. I don't think it would be practical to "convert" a mk2 but I think some of the basic design principles could be incorperated into a new gun.

I just think that the right engineer could make it work.

When you say "massive" what do you mean exactly? Big, heavy, Big and heavy? Dense? And why would that neccesarily be the case?

Did the broomhandle mausers have a really big bolt/slide? and about the Nambu's were they fixed barrels? and did they have really massive bolts and slides?

I should know these things, probably will someday.

-bevr

Dave Markowitz
April 2, 2003, 09:50 PM
Did the broomhandle mausers have a really big bolt/slide? and about the Nambu's were they fixed barrels? and did they have really massive bolts and slides?

Broomhandles are recoil-operated, as are the Nambus, IIRC.

Handy
April 3, 2003, 12:05 AM
Bevr,

Ditto what Frodo said.

When I said massive, I meant containing much mass, or being heavy.

If you aren't going to use some sort of lock or delay, mass and spring pressure are the only things containing the pressure. Spring pressure with little mass would either fail to cycle or cycle with incredible speed.

You have to have a lock, delay or sufficient mass. Period.



PS The Detonics Pocket 9 was a delayed blowback. The chamber had annular grooves that the brass expanded into, creating a friction delay.

makdaddy03
April 3, 2003, 12:28 AM
I want 1 too.:D

Handy
April 3, 2003, 02:05 AM
Oh, so this week fixed barrels are a good idea?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10113&perpage=25&highlight=luger&pagenumber=1



Great.

WonderNine
April 3, 2003, 05:45 AM
Oh, so this week fixed barrels are a good idea?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...er&pagenumber=1



Great.

I sense your incredible lack of open mindedness towards non-standard designs :rolleyes:

Triad
April 3, 2003, 05:55 AM
Handy, you're not alone, but there's a quote along the lines of "There are none so blind as those who will not see". IMO the only thing that would convince most of those folks is John Browning coming and telling them that fixed barrels are better. Even if that happened I think some of them would suddenly decide John Browning was an idiot.

WonderNine
April 3, 2003, 05:58 AM
Was that posted response to me or Handy? I'm assuming you made a mistake?

Triad
April 3, 2003, 06:06 AM
WonderNine, I think you misunderstand. His post was refering to a discussion were it seemed he was the only one who WAS open minded about non standard designs.

Handy, you mentioned the chamber grooves in the Detonics design, and the Russians have something similar in a Makarov redesigned to use 9x19. Do you think something like that could be made to work with this idea? I don't know if the grooves alone would be enough considering the bolt of such a design would not have mass comparable to a full length slide. Perhaps the bolt could be made of tungsten to make up for the weight difference?

WonderNine
April 3, 2003, 06:34 AM
Ok, I wasn't sure what you were saying. I actually read that post a couple of weeks back amazingly just as I was getting extremely irritated with with all the semi-autos I've shot that had crooked lockups.

I'm just extremely tired and annoyed with all of the shooters that claim to have 1 & 1/2 groups at 25 - 30 yards with their perfect 1911's and Browning Hi-Powers, when all the examples I've owned won't hit the target at 15 while I can deadeye with revolvers at 25.

Mylhouse
April 3, 2003, 10:26 AM
I'm just extremely tired and annoyed with all of the shooters that claim to have 1 & 1/2 groups at 25 - 30 yards with their perfect 1911's and Browning Hi-Powers, when all the examples I've owned won't hit the target at 15 while I can deadeye with revolvers at 25.

Wondernine,

Don't feel bad. You're just a natural revolver shooter. Just because you can shoot a wheelie with proficiency and you can't hit crap with a semi (with Browning-style lockup), doesn't mean that the auto was inaccurate or the owner was full of crap. It just means you suck with most autos and you rock with a wheelgun...JMO.

Handy
April 3, 2003, 11:42 AM
Triad,

I think the grooved chamber is a poor way to do business. It relies to heavily on the ductility of the brass casing to function. If it doesn't function, your beating the gun to death.

A think mechanical leverage or gas delay are the best methods. But I thing that there may be a decent way to get a Lahti/Luger/Broomhandle design to work efficiently and reliably.

dude
April 3, 2003, 11:49 AM
of course fixed barrel 9mm-s are superior!!
...........that's way God invented the P7

which btw has nothing 'huge' or 'clunky' even though it is blowback operated

9mmepiphany
April 3, 2003, 01:04 PM
with the exception of the P7M10...whose slide is both huge and clunky.

it is a example of a balanced 9mm design upgraded to the .40 and the mass needed to deal with the additional recoil/pressure

dude
April 3, 2003, 01:09 PM
.........the M10 in an insult to the artwork of the P7!!

When I am King it will be re-named and deemed a 'clone'.

BevrFevr
April 3, 2003, 02:19 PM
Handy,

I see your point about blowback operated bolts. I wonder though if a recoil operated bolt/slide could not be implemented in a mk2 "like" pistol.

Actually I'm seein it in my minds eye. Make the reciever (already heavy) into a slide(like a buckmark or S&w). Have the slide run on rails that extend back from the bull barrel.

I'm seeing it. Now some bastard will get rich with my idea.

Same ol Same ol.

-bevr

Handy
April 3, 2003, 08:33 PM
Bevr,

What you just described is how a Mauser Broomhandle works.

It's essentially a packaging problem, because whatever locks the slide and barrel together ends up doing it behind the chamber, rather than in front like other recoil guns. That is why a Luger has that goofy toggle action and a verticle recoil spring, and the Mauser has a front mag.

I'm sure an elegant solution exists, but no one is currently looking.

Dr.Rob
April 4, 2003, 06:12 AM
Well, a Luger sort of looks like a blow-back but it's not. Lugers are also ammunition finicky and even Federal FMFJ might bind up on the feed ramp of a Luger.

They are neat peices but there are far better designs to skin this cat. The P7 has a fixed barrel and it achives success by bleeding gas, heating the trigger guard, and requiring more metal.

I agree it would be neat to see a large caliber SA pistol set up sort of like the lines of a mark 2 (ala Automag) who would buy it? maybe that's the cool way to make a 10 shot 7.62x25 pistol.

AZ Jeff
April 4, 2003, 03:53 PM
This is an interesting thread, but I think some of you don't understand what the limitations are on creating blowback operated weapons.

Blowback guns are designed using Sir Isaac Newton's law of Conservation of Momentum. Stated simply, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Thus, the bullet weighing "X" grains, moving down the barrel a "Y" feet per second translates into a slide/bolt (weighing "A" grains) moving rearward at "B" feet per second. The following math must apply: "X" times "Y" must equal "A" times "B"

Now for .22 LR, the 42 gr. bullet at 1100fps must be balance by a slide weighing 1000 grains (estimated for Ruger Mark II?) at 4.2 fps.

One can see that, as the weight goes up for the bullet (assuming bullet speed is held constant), then either the slide must get heavier, or the slide speed will start getting pretty high pretty fast. Once the slide speed gets high enough, the breach mechanism is opening up before the chamber pressure has dropped enough, and case rupture starts to occur.

The solution here, of course, is to increase the slide/bolt mass to compensate. The problem, of course, comes when the bullet gets really fast and/or really heavy. To illustrate this point, back in the 1920's, Ordnance Corps Major Julian Hatcher calculated that a blowback arm chambered for .30/06 would need a 23 POUND breachblock to function safely. That sort of makes the whole issue of portablility problematic.

So, designers seek alternative solutions to avoid the weight penalty. If they are desperate to keep the barrel fixed (and avoid locked breach solutions), then the need to retard the blowback somehow. Heavy springs work, to a point, as is the case with the Astra 600. Gas retardation works well, as the P7 has shown. Retarded blowback, like the P9S, works, at the price of breachblock complexity. Grooving the chamber works, assuming you can control the ductility of the brass carefully. (This has proven to be a problem for military arms that use ammo from all kinds of sources.)

The key here is that WEIGHT becomes the driving limit as to why blowback is not used in many arms with power levels higher than 9x18 Makarov.

PS>>>using subguns as a comparison as to why blowback works for larger cartridges like 9x19 and .45ACP is not very valid. Most subguns weigh in excess of 7 pounds, which is far greater than any true handgun, which almost always weighs less than 3 pounds.

Handy
April 4, 2003, 04:53 PM
Excellent post, AZ.

glockgazda
April 4, 2003, 06:34 PM
Before we get hung up on the fixed bbl designs....

WITH A TWO PLANE SIGHTING SYSTEM WHAT MATTERS THE MOST IS HOW YOUR SIGHTS ARE MOUNTED.

That's assuming that you have already maxed out the standard ingredients for accuracy (trigger, ammo, bbl, etc.). That leaves you with sight placement, you want FRONT and REAR sights ON THE BBL. As far as combat type guns go, you are talking DA revolvers, where for all practical purposes this is the case.

Could be done easily on Beretta 92 or P-38 for example. Couple of ways to do it depending on how much sight radius you want (and you want maximum available).

Problem is, combat guns have to be tough, reliable, and easy to disassemble which kinda leaves little room for playing with sight configs.

Handy
April 4, 2003, 09:33 PM
glockgazda,

The Mausers, Lugers, Lahtis and Nambus mentioned all have sites fixed to the barrel, and the barrel is not fixed. A P-38 is the next closest thing.

Fixed barrel guns tend to be accurate because the slide (and attached sighting plane) have every reason to recenter on the barrel reliably, since there is not camming action inhibiting that.

A Luger or similar are probably the most accurate simple design, since the sights really are all attached to the barrel.


I've considered buying a cheap Walther P1 and building a sight bridge that clamps around the barrel and extends aft to the hammer. I imagine the results would also be phenomenal accuracy.

nbs2005
September 9, 2008, 05:53 PM
Hi all, I'm reviving an old thread. Please let me know if this is not proper etiquette on this forum.

I want the most accurate 9mm that can be had for less than $750 ($500-650 leaves more for ammo).

I want a gun that, with the right ammo and in a rest, can shoot 2 inch groups at 50m (or come as close to that as I can given my price, a Sig P210 would be great!). I think I have a better chance at that with fixed barrel guns, but I'm open to others.

Any other fixed barrel guns to suggest? Anyone have anymore info on the the B76 (links, PDF manual, etc)? Any others?

I know this theme gets beaten to death, and I apologize for that.

Thanks,

J

1KPerDay
September 9, 2008, 07:04 PM
Look into the Sig P226 and CZ75... not fixed barrels, but some are capable of 2-inch groups with the right ammo IIRC. I think my 226 might do it with someone else shooting. :D

G.A.Pster
September 10, 2008, 02:17 AM
Iíll piggy back on here, does anyone make threaded (or extended unthreaded barrels) For the handfull of fixed barrel 9s?

Iíve looked extensivly but it seems like a big no, unless you want custom work.:banghead:

Nimble1
September 10, 2008, 10:50 AM
I can only add to and agree that the B76 is an extremely accurate pistol. I love shooting mine. Its much more accurate than I am.
I just wonder if anyone has tried CorBon Powerball ammo to solve the feeding problem for defense ammo?

jackstinson
September 10, 2008, 11:00 AM
Why doesn't Ruger or somebody make a 9mm w/ fixed barrel
Here are a few, take your pick:
Hi-Point C-9
Jimenez JaNine
Bryco M-59
Intratec DC-9
Lorcin L-9
FEG PA-63 (9x18)

CypherNinja
September 10, 2008, 03:35 PM
When you say "massive" what do you mean exactly? Big, heavy, Big and heavy? Dense? And why would that neccesarily be the case?


Uzi bolts are in the neighborhood of 1.5 POUNDS. I imagine most other blowback 9mm bolts are close to the same.

The changes in firing rates from UZI -> MiniUZI -> MicroUZI are due to the change in the recoil distance of the bolt.

The bolt has to be at least a certain weight in order to hold the case in the chamber long enough, and the recoil spring has to be an appropriate strength to cycle the action reliably. The recoil spring has VERY LITTLE effect on how fast the bolt recoils while under pressure, that is a LOT of force being applied by the case and the spring doesn't come anywhere near being able to counteract it significantly.

usp9
September 10, 2008, 06:12 PM
nbs2005,
Go find yourself a Astra 400 or 600...just what you're looking for. The link will explain.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg78-e.htm

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