Why no P232 in 9mm


PDA






SIGfiend
November 10, 2005, 02:22 PM
I like this gun but wish it were made in the more mainstream 9mm variant...no not the kurz/.380!

Why haven't SIG done this?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why no P232 in 9mm" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
cookekdjr
November 10, 2005, 02:27 PM
It's a blow-back design that does not work with the more powerful 9mm Luger cartridge. Generally speaking, 9mm Makarov is the most powerful cartridge you can get from this design, although a small number of blow-back pistols have successfully harnessed the 9mm.
-David

Trebor
November 10, 2005, 02:32 PM
The few blowback guns that do shoot 9x19mm have extremely stout recoil springs and are much larger than the Sig 232. Check out the Astra 600 sometime. I think the High Point might be blowback as well.

There's a limit to how small the gun can be and still shoot 9x19mm. I think the Roughborgh P9 or the Kahr PM9 are about as small as you can go. They are both locked breech pistols.

Devonai
November 10, 2005, 05:12 PM
May I direct you to the excellent Sig P239? I believe it answers your question quite succinctly.

Hawk
November 10, 2005, 07:30 PM
Why no P232 in 9mm

'Cuz it would feel like a Hi-Point.

Something about locked breach vs blow back.

+1 on the 239 - I have one in .357 and it's great fun.

Zundfolge
November 10, 2005, 07:37 PM
A 9x19 blowback pistol like a P232 or PPK or even a Makarov would hurt like hell to shoot ... might as well get a S&W 329PD and shoot it will full house loads.


Baikal experimented with a 9x19 Makarov not to long ago ... it was brutal and dangerous to shoot (at least according to the guys at the Baikal factory) ... a Mak is a bit heaver then a P232 and very solidly built so I doubt the little SIG would work.


If you want a 9x19 that small, get a Rohrbaugh or Kahr.

A Kahr MK9 is smaller.

MK9 - 9x19
Length 5.3"
Height 4.0"
Width .90"
Weight Empty 22.1 oz

SIG P232 - 9x17 (aka .380acp)
Length 6.6"
Height 4.7"
Width 1.2"
Weight Empty 16.2 oz

wardog
November 11, 2005, 09:03 AM
I want a 9mm 232 as well. I know they'd have to change the design though.

But hey, if Kahr and Rohrbaugh can make a mini 9, why can't SIG (or HK) ?

The 232 would be the perfect size for a mini 9 IMHO.

(I don't consider the 239 a mini 9)

Shipwreck
November 11, 2005, 09:39 AM
I agree. They could still keep the same shape and size, and just change the mechanics...

otomik
November 11, 2005, 10:38 AM
I like blowback guns with the spring around the barrel. they're very ergonomic and have a low barrel axis.

I agree. They could still keep the same shape and size, and just change the mechanics...be nice to the engineers now, explain to me how you're going to do that, the p232, PPK and Bersa .380 profile is dependent on a spring around the barrel and there's really no room for the barrel to tilt anyway.

also it was my understanding that the Makarov in 9mm Para had a grooved chamber (similar to H&K) which is one method of delaying blowback.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm
if you're going to do this I'd try using this russian pistol's operating system while incorporating a grooved chamber and just try to miniturized it until it looks something like a Bersa, PPK, P232.

pauli
November 11, 2005, 11:22 AM
be nice to the engineers now, explain to me how you're going to do that, the p232, PPK and Bersa .380 profile is dependent on a spring around the barrel and there's really no room for the barrel to tilt anyway.who needs it to tilt, when it can rotate?

otomik
November 11, 2005, 01:13 PM
who needs it to tilt, when it can rotate?fantastic, now what do to with the recoil spring? certainly can't wrap with around the barrel if it's rotating. again i think your best chance is here:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm

pauli
November 11, 2005, 09:53 PM
it can go around the barrel as long as it's short enough.

otomik
November 11, 2005, 10:34 PM
it can go around the barrel as long as it's short enough.I'd love to see it done but my fear is that it will damage the spring. I'm looking at my Bersa, one side grips the barrel toward the chamber the other side pushes against the muzzle area of the slide. that friction is going to cause problems with the recoil spring. might want to add a ring that attaches to the end of the spring toward the muzzle and oil the ring and muzzle contact surface to reduce friction, it's an idea. rotating barrel guns need a lot of oil, thats just another area to worry about.

SIG Beretta Walther Bersa somebody try this.

Zundfolge
November 11, 2005, 11:44 PM
Maybe a gas-retarded blowback system like the Steyr GB (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg71-e.htm)?

pauli
November 11, 2005, 11:49 PM
friction isn't an issue with captive recoil springs; thus, simply make a captive recoil spring assembly large enough to fit around the barrel.

at the same time... i'm not so sure you couldn't put a recoil spring around a tilting barrel. the lugs would be the issue, not the tilting, and they could, perhaps, be moved.

PCRCCW
November 12, 2005, 10:24 AM
The HK P7 is a fixed barrel gun, gas retarded blowback......

Id love to see a Makarov/Sig 232 9mm.............I just like the lines of the guns.

Its very possible to make.....but is there enough market to make the gun worth building???????????

Shoot well.

otomik
November 12, 2005, 11:26 AM
friction isn't an issue with captive recoil springs; thus, simply make a captive recoil spring assembly large enough to fit around the barrel.

at the same time... i'm not so sure you couldn't put a recoil spring around a tilting barrel. the lugs would be the issue, not the tilting, and they could, perhaps, be moved.i know it's possible to have a recoil spring around a barrel even if it tilts, thats why i kept linking the russian pistol :)
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/sr1-pm.jpg
see how it's profile is somewhat like the makarov?
a captive recoil spring around the barrel would be very convienent, I've never seen this on a gun, it might make the slide too wide, who knows.

Its very possible to make.....but is there enough market to make the gun worth building???????????is it possible to make? show me the blueprints, that's what we're trying to figure out here. I think there's a market everybody has thought to themselves, gee that james bond pistol is pretty nice lookin, too bad it's in a pussy caliber (true, some would say the same about 9mm).

Maybe a gas-retarded blowback system like the Steyr GB?in the gas retarded blowback system you have some gases from near the chamber go down another chamber, which pushes on the front of the slide and delays it's opening till the bullet has left the barrel. in a p7 this gas chamber occupies the position where the guide rod would be on a more conventional pistol, people sometimes call it the gas piston, a company made a similar product for 1911s which turned them into gas operated pistols and replaced the guide rod. the Steyr GB is a bit more exotic, look at the front of the barrel, that's where they put the gas chamber, I don't have one but I'd imagine that makes it even harder to clean than the P7. the Steyr GB has a recoil spring under it's barrel, I guess you could try to put in on the barrel between the gas chamber and the cartridge chamber but I have some doubts. Some people complained about the GBs balance, I can see how the gas chamber near the muzzle would make it top heavy.

carebear
November 12, 2005, 07:00 PM
Now I'm moving further afield but how bout a Colt Mustang (or Gov't) in 9mm? As small or smaller than the Rohrbaugh.

Tilting barrel/semi-blowback, dual recoil springs. You could leave it alloy and just beef up the frame a bit.

How bout it science?

otomik
November 12, 2005, 07:40 PM
Now I'm moving further afield but how bout a Colt Mustang (or Gov't) in 9mm? As small or smaller than the Rohrbaugh.

Tilting barrel/semi-blowback, dual recoil springs. You could leave it alloy and just beef up the frame a bit.

How bout it science?more like how about it legal eagle? colt already made it, it's the colt pocket nine and they got sued by kahr for making it. all they'd have to do is revisit the design enough to satisfy kahr's lawyers. I think it's all about the offset barrel lug, serves them right considering how litigious Colt has been.

http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Other;action=display;num=1091153937

carebear
November 12, 2005, 07:47 PM
I completely forgot about the Pocket Nine. :banghead:

I wasn't too hip on it at the time for some reason. Wasn't it DAO?

Cause DAO is for circus freaks and carnies, those kind of people. :D

I want SA and alloy frame.

otomik
November 12, 2005, 08:15 PM
dao, with external concealed hammer, so it had second strike ability unlike kahrs and glocks.
I want SA and alloy frame.get an STI LS9, but i think it's steel frame.

Zundfolge
November 15, 2005, 12:50 AM
Okay, so back on a 9x19 P232 ... what about the miniature roller locking system of the HK P9 (http://www.hkpro.com/p9.htm)?

There's a 9x19 in more of a P232/PPK type shape.

ABBOBERG
November 15, 2005, 12:00 PM
The gun you guys describe is in the works - I am doing the best I can to get it ready for the market. It will be the same size as the Kahr PM9, but have a much better grip and duplicates or exceeds the kinetic energy and accuracy of a full-size 9mm, such as a Sig p226 or a Glock 17 using the same ammunition. I just hope there are enough of you out there to buy it .......

Alan Fud
November 16, 2005, 12:01 PM
Now I'm moving further afield but how bout a Colt Mustang (or Gov't) in 9mm? As small or smaller than the Rohrbaugh. The Colt Pocket Nine is about the same size as the Colt Mustang and it is bigger than the Rohrbaugh R9 ...

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f152.jpg
Colt Pocket Nine (above top) & Rohrbaugh R9 (above bottom)

Alan Fud
November 16, 2005, 12:04 PM
The gun you guys describe is in the works - I am doing the best I can to get it ready for the market. It will be the same size as the Kahr PM9, but have a much better grip and duplicates or exceeds the kinetic energy and accuracy of a full-size 9mm, such as a Sig p226 or a Glock 17 using the same ammunition. I just hope there are enough of you out there to buy it .......Now you got me curious. Care to share any details? DAO? DA/SA? striker fired? hammer? Photos?

Alan Fud
November 16, 2005, 12:11 PM
While we're wishing for things, I'd like to see a PPK in 9mm. If a Rohrbaugh R9 can be made in 9mm and it's smaller than a PPK ...

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f144.jpg

... then there is no reason why a PPK can't be made in 9mm.

wardog
November 16, 2005, 12:47 PM
Yes, Yes, details, details.

ABBOBERG
November 16, 2005, 02:54 PM
Since I have not finished the patent yet, anything I publicly reveal about how it works will cause the clock to start ticking for a 1-year deadline of patent filing. But I can tell you that it is double-action only with smooth constant trigger force (7 lb) until hammer drop, gas-delay action with fixed barrel, 7+1 capacity. Size: 5.63" overall length, 4.2" high, .94" thick. Weight 17.5 oz. Some ballistics: 323 fpe with 147gr Fed Hydrashock (289 for Sig p226, 298 for Beretta 92FS, 252 Kahr PM9), 472 fpe with Hirtenberger +P+ (475 for Sig p226, 375 for Kahr PM9).

Alan Fud
November 16, 2005, 07:43 PM
Okay, you got me interested. Sounds like it's the size of a Colt Pocket Nine.

Zen21Tao
November 17, 2005, 07:22 AM
My normal daily CCW is a .40 S&W Sig P239 IWB BUT for pocket power I also have an AMT .45 Backup. Quite heavy for a pocket gun but you get 5+1 rounds of .45 ACP.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/9855/amtbackupresized23bx.jpg

Marko Kloos
November 17, 2005, 07:48 AM
then there is no reason why a PPK can't be made in 9mm.

Because the PPK is a fixed-barrel blowback design, while the Rohrbaugh is a Browning-style short recoil tilt barrel design. In order to have the PPK use the same operating principle, you'd need to redesign the entire gun to the point where it wouldn't be PPK-sized anymore.

The Rohrbaugh is neat, but shoehorning the 9mmx19 into such a small platform comes with severe limitations on the gun...there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The Rohrbaugh can't use +P or +P+ ammo, and the life of the recoil spring is only a few hundred rounds.

Hawk
November 17, 2005, 01:11 PM
The Rohrbaugh was also at the center of pretty entertaining lint storm between Gun-Tests and the maker. I don't recall the details.

There are quirks. TANSTAAFL.

Still wouldn't mind having one myself.

Alan Fud
November 17, 2005, 09:27 PM
I've been reading GunTests for nearly a decade and while their publication is informative, I don't always agree with their conclusions.

DesertFox01
November 30, 2005, 05:02 PM
well why cant they make a PPK type pistol with a rotary locking action in
9x19? walther has a PPK in 9mm makarov (9x18)

ABBOBERG
November 30, 2005, 05:28 PM
It would have to be Beretta, since they hold the patent, which expires next year. Coincidentally, they discontinuing the Cougar.

Robert J McElwain
December 1, 2005, 10:30 AM
I've got a P232 and, given the weight of the gun, .380 is about as much as can be fired a lot without taking all the fun out of it.

I also, own a Kel Tec .380, which is considerably lighter than the P 232 and, although it's reliable for what it's intended for, it's not a fun gun to shoot, simply because the felt recoil just isn't that pleasant. Kel Tec also makes a 9mm pistol in super-small, which I've never fired, and I've got to believe that it, like the .380, is only good for saving your life but not much fun at the range.

OTOH, I also have a SIG 239 which has the weight to handle 9mm very comfortably. I can shoot it all day, and not tire of the recoil. So there are always compromises. But if I'm going to shoot 9mm or .45 ACP, I want enough weight to the gun to deal with it.

Bob

wrangler5
December 1, 2005, 12:13 PM
I have Kel Tecs in both 380 and 9mm (P11) and neither one is a real joy to shoot much. The 9mm is a double stack, though, with a much wider grip, so the recoil is spread over a much wider piece of your hand. As between the two, the 9mm is more pleasant to shoot. Not as nice as my Browning Hi Power :) but not really all that bad, at least for a few dozen rounds. I'm considering getting a finger extension baseplate for the magazine, which gives a place for the little finger, and which on other short guns is said to make a big difference in the feel and controllability.

Something to remember about a 9x19 PPK project is that the 9mm has an overall length spec nearly 0.2 inches longer than the 380. This is a non-trivial dimensional difference in a gun design that probably has already had all the excess space squeezed out of it. Just deepening the grip to accommodate a deeper magazine would change both the length of pull and the overall feel, and it wouldn't be a PPK any more :(

Everything is a compromise.

otomik
December 1, 2005, 12:27 PM
It would have to be Beretta, since they hold the patent, which expires next year. Coincidentally, they discontinuing the Cougar.Beretta doesn't hold the patent, there have been many rotating barrel action pistols made by other manufacturers.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg89-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg64-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg126-e.htm

then there's the Savage .45, the Obregon .45, The Colt All American 2000, etc...

And Beretta is moving production of the Cougar to another company in Beretta Holdings, they are not discontinuing it in any permanent sense but there will be a gap in production as it moves to factories in Turkey and future Cougars probably won't have "Beretta" on the slide.

walther has a PPK in 9mm makarov (9x18)I believe you're mistaken, maybe you mean the Walter PP Super in 9x18mm Police or Ultra.

ABBOBERG
December 1, 2005, 12:36 PM
I have a printed copy of the Beretta rotating barrel patent at home, I will have to look it up. I have seen several issued gun patents where there was prior art on the same devices - it just shows sloppy patent searching. Normally this results in an invalid patent.

otomik
December 1, 2005, 04:54 PM
Beretta Cougar is one of the best rotating barrel pistols, maybe the patent was some refinement of it. I think I'll go look up opinions on the Mauser M2.

DesertFox01
December 1, 2005, 07:29 PM
I believe you're mistaken, maybe you mean the Walter PP Super in 9x18mm Police or Ultra.
yeah its a PP my bad.
I was at a gunshot in redding Ca called jones fort they had a ppk style pistol in 9x19

If you enjoyed reading about "Why no P232 in 9mm" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!