[wanderinwalker]

Yep. It seems crazy, I fully realize it, but I had to start this.

First off, let me say that I am not exactly in favor of taking a .223 AR-15 out deer hunting. Just doesn't seem like enough gun to me, unless we're taking head-shots only on small rat-deer.

That said, I decided at the range today that I really do shoot better away from the bench with an AR-15 than I do with a "conventional" deer rifle. I mean, way better. Granted, 50 yards isn't much of a test, but 50 yards is how far a shot is likely to be in these woods anyway. But offhand, sitting, kneeling, braced, whatever, I can definitely shoot an AR-15 well.

So...

I'm looking at a longer future forecast before the budget allows this, but I figured I'd get a forum concensus. The options I see for turning an AR into a semi-useful deer gun are:

A) 7.62x39mm upper

B) 6.8mm SPC upper

C) .50 Beowulf

D) 6.5 Grendel

What is the concensus on the future of these options? I realize that in terms of power, that the Beowulf stomps all of the other. But availability and ease of use are concerns, to a point. I do reload, so finding commercially made ammo isn't a huge issue, in my mind. What does everybody think for making an AR-15 into a 100-150 yard deer rifle? Which is the most logical route?

[mmike87]

Availability of ammo be dammed - the Beowulf gets my vote. I think the AR shooting that ammo would be a fine deer rifle.

[TIMC]

This is my current deer/pig gun.
Bushmaster AR-10 chambered in 7.62 topped with a Leupold 6.5-20 LR scope
http://photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/th_AR-10PIC2.jpg
I took a nice deer with it Wednesday with a neck shot at 175 yards. Ammo used was Honady 168 grain TAP. The rifle seems to like it, 3/4" to 1" groups at 100 yards using it.

.308 ammo is fairly cheap and easy to get, a big plus for any rifle.

[rbernie]

I built a 7.62x39 upper for deer hunting. The biggest issue with 7.62x39 in an AR platform is usually hi-cap magazine availability, but that's not a problem for deer hunting. I used a free-floated Model1Sales barrel and bolt with a DPMS upper and lower. It's a solid MOA performer.

For 200 yard or less deer hunting, it's the bee's knees.

[Jim Watson]

60 grain Nosler .224" partition.

[Zak Smith]

In 223, look at the 70gr Barnes TSX bullet. It is longer than a 77SMK and over half its length is a solid shank. A guy posted on SH that he's taken multiple deer with it (under 100 yards) and it has no problem punching through both lungs and breaking the far shoulder on the way out.

In 6.8SPC, I have just loaded up some of the following rounds for the WI deer season:

110gr Sierra Pro-Hunter (2630fps)
100gr Barnes XFB (2680fps)
110gr Barnes TSX (2610fps)

Based on the bullet construction, I expect these to all perform, but I won't have the actual data until after..

Here's the 70gr 223 fired into books:
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/small/A100_1543_img.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?medium=A100_1543_img.jpg) [ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?medium=A100_1543_img.jpg)

Since the district I'll be hunting in has unlimited tags available, I may get the chance to have myself or other hunters try all those 6.8 loads in addition to the 70gr 223 (from a suppressed 14.5" no less!)

[Zundfolge]

For what B, C or D would cost you could be in an AR-10 (and .308 is plenty good for deer ... and less expensive to shoot for practice than the other 3).

I just have a problem with 7.62x39 in an AR ... but not for any logical reasons ... it just seems wrong. In addition I don't know if its as inherently accurate as .308.

[wanderinwalker]

I had thought of an AR-10. With that route I could even have it made into my beloved .260 later on in life, which would be cool. Actually, at Camp Perry in August I got to hold a DPMS chambered in .300 RSAUM. The platform has always interested me.

My father has a spare AR-15 lower hanging around that I suspect I could talk him out of for not much $$. Half the fun I see with an AR is the ability to go from a dedicated .22LR, a long-barreled varmint gun, a match rifle, a short-barreled bullet hose and more just by pushing some pins. Plug and play! And it beats my friend's Encore cause you never have to worry about shot number 2 (or 3, or 4, or 5...). :evil:

[trickyasafox]

if you get the beowolf you can use the same 223 mags. and i think a 30rnd 223 mag holds 10 50 beowolf so its legal in most areas. less fiddling around if you ask me :) that being said if you dont reload i could see how this could get to be problematic.

hey dont forget they make a 50 cal upper for the ar 15:p

[rbernie]

Are those 6.8SPC velocities out of an 18" barrel or a 16" barrel?

[Rob1035]

what about .458 SOCOM?
http://www.cyburban.com/~bluemtn/images/specia1.458_SOCOM1.jpg


might be overkill though...

[Zak Smith]

I used to own a 20" (LW) AR-10. It was heavy. I wouldn't want to carry it around the woods all day. But it would certainly get the job done, no question.

rbernie,

They are from my 18". I would not expect them to lose much FPS from a 16" however.

[MechAg94]

I would think you could do fine with .223 if you pick your ammo carefully and take only sure accurate shots.
Otherwise, you will have more ammo choices in .308 than other alternatives.

[The Tourist]

In Wisconsin, a .22 centerfire cartridge is legal for deer, as long as FMJ ammo is not used.

I know of a LEO who uses a box-stock AR-15 (a semi-automatic) and he is a very successful deer hunter.

I also have talked to several guys at the sporting goods store where I work who have wifes of slight stature. Their favorite caliber is 22-250.

Same old argument. It's the man, not the machine.

[Rob1035]

click here for picture of deer and rifle (http://www.hunt101.com/img/340812.JPG) from an AR15.com thread discussing successful Deer hunts with .223/5.56mm ARs

[artherd]

Use the Barnes 70GR TSX, it'll do great.

[Zak Smith]

Here's the thread on SH, too

http://www.snipershide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002041;p=0&r=actu#000012

[TrapperReady]

Zak - Are you hunting the CWD Eradication Zone?

[Zak Smith]

I don't believe 67A is in the CWD zone.

[Gewehr98]

;)

(As a Wisconsin resident living in Florida, myself, with the USGI home of record exemption...)


Myself, I understand why some states outlaw the .223 for deer hunting. Hell, often it doesn't even work on two-legged critters. Granted, I've witnessed poachers in Wisconsin (Sauk County) take deer with .22 Long Rifle, but that doesn't make it right. And I've owned dogs that are bigger than Texas deer, so maybe it's ok down there for .223 Remington.

I am intrigued, however, by an AR-15 chambered either for 6.5PPC/Grendel or 6.8 SPC as a Bambi-thumper.

[Zak Smith]

I plan to post an "effectiveness" report here once we have results...

Oh, we're using a pair of TA11 ACOGs too...

[TMM]

i'd go with the .50 Beowulf as a first option because:
all you need is a barrel change. the rim on the Beo is the same size as the .223. the width of the Beo is the same as a staggerstacked .223, so no mag change.
it's also powerful.

as a second option i'd go with the 6.5 Grendel.
7,62x39 is kinda underpowered. better than .223, but...
~TMM

[rbernie]

7,62x39 is kinda underpowered. A 30-cal 125gr SP @ 2400fps is not the definition of underpowered. It's just not, ah, OVERpowered. :D

[jefnvk]

Isn't there a .243 upper? Does that work on a 15, or is it a special lower?

[Zak Smith]

.243WIN is the same length as 308, so it'd have to be in an AR10 or SR25.

[wanderinwalker]

TMM,
Though I could just change the barrel on my AR, it is getting a fresh match barrel instead of being turned into some odd test rig. I have my sights set on going back to Camp Perry next year for CMP week, cause it was fun last year. While I hate to set numerical performance goals on things like shooting, I am telling myself I will practice and train and be shooting in the 95-96% range next year like I was two summers ago. My college schedule for the spring will actually lend itself to more practice time than I have had.

jefnvk,
.243 is based on a .308, so I'd have to go to an AR-10 platform. At which point I'd just have it in .260 Remington (AKA 6.5-08) for the better SD and BC of the bullets.

But I fear going to the AR-10 platform negates the handiness and speed of the AR that make me so fond of the sporter version in the first place. My match rifle is a pig (lead sled, sort of) but shoots like a dream.

One of my coworkers pointed out that I could get an Encore with a muzzleloader barrel, a shotgun barrel and a centerfire rife barrel for the cost of some of these AR setups. I thought it about, have thought about it and still think about it as a hunting gun (the Encore). I always end up thinking, "It's cool, but it doesn't load and cock itself." :neener:

We'll see. Looks like I might have a venture into handguns for a bit before this rifle thing sorts itself out. Fortunately my .260 Remington Mountain Rifle remains a perfectly useful and accurate hunting rifle, and it's PAID FOR!! :banghead:

[jerkface11]

For what B, C or D would cost you could be in an AR-10 (and .308 is plenty good for deer ... and less expensive to shoot for practice than the other 3).

I just have a problem with 7.62x39 in an AR ... but not for any logical reasons ... it just seems wrong. In addition I don't know if its as inherently accurate as .308.


I've seen Krochus print a .33" group with a 7.62x39 using wolf ammo. So i'd say the cartridge is accurate. But i'd be forced to pick the 50 beowulf upper. Load that thing with some 300 grain gold dots and let the fun begin.

[444]

>

[444]

If it was me, I would use the AR15 in .223 just like many others have done successfully before you.
As American civilians, we are free to use good quality bullets that are tailored to our task at hand.
However, I realize that most Americans think that you need a howizer to kill a whitetail deer. The minimum cartridge needed gets bigger with each generation. We now have people suggesting .50 caliber. Our kids will be using something featuring high explosive incendiary tracer (HEIT) as a minimum. On guided hunts, close air support will be provided with the optional arty barrage if things get really bad with bambi. If multiple deer are sighted, gun ships and B52s are on standby but they will require a trophy fee.

[berettashotgun]

Olympic arms manufactured AR barrels in 17 remington and 6mmx45; think it was around 1975 they were made. One of each waiting on the time to get my other hobbies taken care of.

[wanderinwalker]

444,
I may do just that next year after I get a chance to work up some loads with the hunting bullets. While it IS legal to hunt with the 77gr Nosler or Sierra match bullets (New Hampshire only stipulates a centerfire rifle and a non-full metal jacket projectile and 5 rounds only for semi-autos with detachable magazines), I just don't have confidence in the terminal performance of said bullets.

As for hunting with howitzers, I too think it's silly the kinds of rounds people use. .300 Win and Weatherby Mags, 7mm Mags, etc. I actually laugh when people come in to work and say the .30-06 is the perfect deer round, especially when loaded with 180s for "hitting power." I've been 20 feet from a couple of different New England moose and have to say I'd just launch a 140 from my .260 at them and then give them more if they're still standing. They're big, but not bullet-proof.

[rbernie]

If multiple deer are sighted, gun ships and B52s are on standby but they will require a trophy fee."It's a HUMANE kill" - the hunter's version of, "It's for the children".

Last year's camp was memorable for the guy who showed up to hunt black buck from a tree stand in thick brush with his 338 Mag. Dang, I said to him - those things must be armor plated sabre-toothed killing machines.... His reply? "I wanna drop 'em where they stand. Don't wanna have to walk around looking for a wounded animal." Huh? "I want a humane kill." Oh, ok. :rolleyes:

I'm convinced that part of the modern fascination with increasing amounts of woods firepower is directly related to the lack of desire to HUNT of most hunters. They want to SHOOT, not to HUNT. Stalking and such is simply too much work.

[mr.trooper]

Um, you dont need another upper to make a good deer gun our of an AR-15. I ALREADY IS ONE. Just load it up with a 70+ grain hollowpoint.

Dittoes on above.

"Hunters" aren't hunters anymore; They are sitters. Thats why i make sure to crawl under, over, around and through every game trail i can find. Actualy HUNTING. Who'd a thunk' it?

[cracked butt]

"Hunters" aren't hunters anymore; They are sitters. Thats why i make sure to crawl under, over, around and through every game trail i can find. Actualy HUNTING. Who'd a thunk' it?

And just how many deer do you bag walking through the woods sounding like a herd of elephants?:neener:

The .223 might work- I know a few not so serious deer hunters who use the .223 in a ruger mini- they claim it works, but I've never seen them shoot any deer, go figure. I would go with a 7.62x39 upper at a minimum, its pretty close to the 30-30 ballistically and has plenty enough killing power.

[Red_SC]

If it were me, it would be either the 6.5 or the .458 Socom. Probably the .458.;)

[browningguy]

I've got a .50 Beowulf as a pig gun, but to be honest I'd go with the 6.5 Grndel for deer. Better selection of appropriate bullets, better trajectory out to 150 yards. The .50 will definately do it, but out past 100 yards it's a great big bullet slowing down real fast.

[Matt-man]

I had thought of an AR-10. With that route I could even have it made into my beloved .260 later on in life, which would be cool.

If you're a .260 fan, the Grendel seems like the logical choice. It's kinda like a ".260 Junior" that works in an AR-15.

[Red_SC]

Don't the .458 SOCOMs use standard magazines?
Which of the other conversions use unmodified magazines?

[Zak Smith]

Both 6.5 Grendel AND 6.8SPC use special caliber specific mags.

But you can probably use a USGI mag for 3-4 rounds.

-z

[ID_shooting]

I vote for the 7.62x39. Plent of power, good commercial game loads available even more if you hand load. plent of cheap ammo for practice. Since a 30-30 will kill deer all day, so will a 7.62x39.

[Zak Smith]

Over on this thread on AR15.com, "SAB" posted that he killed a deer at 300 yards with the 110gr TSX in 6.8SPC with one shot, DRT.
http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=242233&page=16

It's been a while since I posted, and I have a "deer hunting with the 6.8" story to tell. On opening day this year, I trodded out to my favorite spot with my 6.8 with a Leupold MR/T 3-9x at 5:45am.
[...]
The buck is slow-moving, so the shot is an easy one, but he's 300 yards away, and I'm not sure if the 6.8 is up to the task, since I've never shot a whitetail with it. Since there is no wind, the buck is not moving, and I have the rifle absolutely dialed in, I decide that it's worth a try. I slowly drop into a kneeling position, with a monopod under the forearm, and lean against a nearby tree for a rock-solid stance. I crank the Leupy up to 9x, adjust the elevation appropriately, and place the cross-hairs right over the heart/lungs. After calming down and getting my breathing under control, I slowly squeeze the trigger. BANG! The buck takes about five drunken steps and falls over dead! I can't believe it!
[...]

Now, to keep this post on topic, I'll address the effectiveness of the 6.8 round. The load was factory Remington brass, 27.3gr of RL10X, CCI Mil-spec primer, and Barnes TSX 110gr bullet (DISCLAIMER: Don't start at 27.3gr if you duplicate this load - you could blow yourself up!). Average muzzle velocity is 2523fps. At 300yd, velocity is about 1700fps and energy is about 700ft-lb. The bullet entered the chest in the left armpit, destroyed both lungs, but missed the heart, and exited the right shoulder. Shot placement was pretty good, but the damage was pretty substantial. The meat on the right shoulder (exit side) was pretty well ruined.

Any of the calibers discussed in this thread will get the job done - even 223 - if a good bullet is chosen.

[FatalMove]

Which States allow .223 for deer? Im in TN and minimum caliber for deer is .240.:mad: If i could use .223 here i darn sure would cause i got an ar-10 with 20" bull barrel in .308 win............lemme tell ya its one heavy s.o.b ...heavier than a Browning Bar !

But it downs Deer like dominoes. with the 3 doe a day limit i need more chest freezers.:D

[lycanthrope]

Isn't there a .243 upper? Does that work on a 15, or is it a special lower?


.243 WSM and .25 WSM uppers from Oly......runs on the AR15 lower.

[50caliber123]

I recommend the 7.62x39. Its perfect for medium distances. I ragged on my friend even more than be fore when we got that deer. He hit it with a .308. At a range of 25yards, I have to say, it was WAAAY too much gun. Poor deer! I finished Bambi off with a 7.62x39 round from my sks to the head from about 100ft away.

[Sam Adams]

If you're going to switch (i.e. the 70 gr. Barnes TSX isn't enough for you), then I'd go with the 6.5 Grendel. Sure, you'll need some new mags, but you will get a very accurate rifle that can also be used for long range matches. Try that with the 7.62x39 or the .50 Beowulf. As for the 6.8 SPC - OK, it is all the rage right now. It was built as a very much more effective manstopper than the .223, which it clearly is - and, as such, it'll do a good job on similarly sized deer. BUT, the 6.8 is (relatively speaking, of course) a brick vs. the Grendel's sleek jet fighter. It delivers marginally more energy to a target out to about 300 yards, but beyond that the Grendel really shines. Again, to me the biggest advantage of the Grendel is its great BC, which translates into ultra great long range performance. It is a legitimate 1,000 yard gun (if the shooter is up to the task - which I doubt that I'd be). Heck, the 144 grain bullets will outshine even 7.62x51 (i.e. .308) past 500 yards, in terms of energy delivered, with much lower weight per round.

I don't have a Grendel - yet. The only reason is that I've a limited gun budget, and fixing up reliability and accuracy problems with my existing guns, plus practicing with them, take higher priority. However, within 1-2 years I plan on having one and reloading for it.

[SomeKid]

FatalMove, there is a bill before the legislature to remove that limit.

SB3445/HB3552

Gotta love the TFA, eh?

[MCgunner]

I'll keep my Remington, thanks.

[rbernie]

Hunting with ARs is fun. This is my primary woods AR platform; at 7lbs and change with scope and empty magazine and 33" long, it's a very handy and solid package with excellent knock-down...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36707&d=1141696108

I'd go with the 6.5 Grendel.The 6.5 Grendel may be the Hammer of Thor itself at 600 yards but I know very few people capable of making a clean kill at that distance. Not saying that it can't be done, but most people (including myself) simply are not up to that task. And since hunting was the topic (and not LD paper punching), I'll address that aspect of the discussion.

For deer hunting at most realistic distances, a 7.62x39 upper does just fine. I have two AR uppers in 7.62x39 and both will group five shots of my handloads (Sierra 125gr .311 bullets, 25.x gr AA1680, Remington small-primer brass) at an honest inch at 100 yards. I've proven this combination against hogs and deer up to 180lbs or so; large entry and exit wounds with *very* little meat damage. Inside of 200 yards, it just flat works. I've also seen the Sierra 150gr bullets from a 7.62x39 knock some pretty big holes in some pretty tough stuff. 7.62x39 uppers are easier/less expensive to assemble and are cheaper/easier to feed than their 270/6.5mm counterparts. Most importantly to me, 7.62x39 seems to ruin less meat than the higher-velocity 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel offerings. MGW five-round and 10-round 7.62x39 AR-15 magazines are appropriate for and work well in hunting situations.

In defense of the 6.8SPC and/or 6.5 Grendel, they offer performance between 200 yards and 300+ yards that is far superior to the 7.62x39, and there are hi-cap (25+ round) magazines available for these chamberings in case the rifle needs to see double-duty as an instrument of social order.

I intend to build a 6.8SPC upper as my next deer rifle to keep my 7.62x39 rifle's company, but that's more of a 'because I can' than it is a sign of 'I need more rifle'. I also intend to build a 458 SOCOM, just because you can never have too many... :evil: