Just how powerful *IS* the .460 S&W Magnum?


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MikeHaas
November 13, 2005, 03:40 PM
You know what they look like...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/460-308.gif (http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92)

But to see how powerful the .460 S&W Magnum really is, click here...
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92

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Rupestris
November 13, 2005, 05:17 PM
:what: IIRC, One of the local indoor ranges here limits muzzle velocity to 2000 FPS.
Guess I won't get a chance to rent one there.:p

sm
November 13, 2005, 05:23 PM
Yeah well ...

Still got to nuke 'em from orbit. Only real way to be sure you know...:p

I dunno, read that and heard that a lot of late, never have posted it...first time for everything I guess...:p

fisherman66
November 13, 2005, 05:42 PM
not near as powerful as a 300 winmag, but not too bad for a "handgun.";)

TMM
November 13, 2005, 07:10 PM
i'm thinking i should put the .460 on my "list" to get someday for hunting...

~tmm

MikeHaas
November 13, 2005, 10:56 PM
That Ballistic Comparison Tool displays a lot of great info, but too much to show here. However, shouldn't be too much to show the one chart that impresses ME anyway (but some say I'm easy)...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/460-308bct.gif (http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92)

Yeah, the once-again-American S&W (Yay!) sure is doing a "bang up" job of making up for the sins of the old may-they-rot-British S&W. Guess those anti-gunners learned that you can't own an American gun company and betray American gun owners with partners like the Clinton administration. (I'll restrict my comments to that British firm, since the Blair gov't has been pretty stand-up in the WOT. BTW, a recent non-profit I helped launch this year is http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/ - take a look!)

Whether you like big rounds or not, who would argue the .460 is "All American", in the tradition of the B-52, A-10 Warthog and the M1 Abrams? Only "we" could build such a brute. :-)

Think of consecutive serial-numbered S&W XVR's, one .460, the other a .500, in a (forget walnut) red, white and blue-tinted thick-glassed box. Remember, you heard it here first. :-)

brokendreams
November 13, 2005, 11:58 PM
The .500 Magnum is really not that bad, considering. I mean, all that gun really helps. Now the 3.5 inch, or whatever... I can only imagine (and Imagine I will!).

P95Carry
November 14, 2005, 12:02 AM
Tho I have a .454 platform, in SRH and Raging Bull - I do want a 460. main reason being - I can again shoot my .45LC, and my .454 Casull - but also ramp things up to the max with the true 460 load - which as a hunting round does (in theory at least) about eclipse anything much else re handgun stuff.

I guess unless I get a small lottery win that gun will wait - until which time I don't reckon I'll be too incommoded by the SRH - or come to that even - my BFR with stout loads in 45-70 :)

Guns_and_Labs
November 14, 2005, 06:07 PM
I think I've found the perfect niche for the .460 S&W... Montana elk hunting in the Restricted Weapons zone, where only handguns or shotguns can be used.

"Handguns" have to utilize straight-walled cartridges designed for handguns (eliminating the .45-70 in a BFR, I guess).

My slug gun is not accurate beyond 100 yards, but this seems to extend my range nicely.

So, either crawl closer or come up with a $1000 for one hunt. Well, I guess my kneepads will last one more year.

Cascade Hunter
November 14, 2005, 10:56 PM
I think I've found the perfect niche for the .460 S&W... Montana elk hunting in the Restricted Weapons zone, where only handguns or shotguns can be used.
Yep! I bet it will work!

[IMG]http://www.hunt101.com/img/340630.jpg[IMG]

Cascade Hunter
November 14, 2005, 11:00 PM
Opps! No images allowed I guess. Try this. (Sorry. I'm new at this.)

MachIVshooter
November 14, 2005, 11:28 PM
That Ballistic Comparison Tool displays a lot of great info, but too much to show here. However, shouldn't be too much to show the one chart that impresses ME anyway (but some say I'm easy)...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/460-308bct.gif (http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92)



That table is severly flawed. They have used a top Hornady load for the .460, and very sedate loads for all the rest. Here are rounded max energy figures for each, listed w/ barrel length required to achieve it:

.45 ACP: ~550, 5"
.45 Super: ~650, 5"
.454 Casull: ~2,100, 7.5"
.480 Ruger: ~1,400, 7.5"
.50 AE: ~1,700, 6"
.460 XVR: ~2,400, 8"
.500 S&W: ~2,600, 8"
.308 Win: ~2,700, 22"

I have .45 auto's (5), a .454, a .50AE and 2 .308's. I have done extensive chronographing. My results pretty much fall in line with claims of premium ammo manufacturers. The exceptions being the .454 and .50 AE, which are not factory loaded anywhere near there abilities within SAAMI spec. I'm betting the .480 could be safely pushed significantly higher as well.

I'm not disputing the power of the .460, and would like to get one. But it is not as high above the rest as this table would have you believe. And it is not above the .500.

kasTX
November 15, 2005, 11:16 AM
MachIVshooter - good catch. That table looked flawed to me too, so I did some looking and found the following for the 500S&W:

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S500PTHP&cart=NTAwIFMrQUNZLVc=

1800fps and 400 grains for 2877 ft-lbs.

BluesBear
November 15, 2005, 11:49 AM
The chart is a good example of the differences between statistics and facts. ;)

MikeHaas
November 24, 2005, 07:02 AM
That table is severly flawed. They have used a top Hornady load for the .460, and very sedate loads for all the rest... I'm not disputing the power of the .460, and would like to get one. But it is not as high above the rest as this table would have you believe. And it is not above the .500.

As the author of the program that generated the table, I respectfully differ with your assessment.

1. The Average muzzle energy for the .460 is based on 13 loads, the factory 200 grain load and 12 handloads using Hodgdon powders. The value for the .460 is definitely not that high because we "used a top Hornady load for the .460, and very sedate loads for all the rest" - we didn't! All available loads for all rounds are calculated for each round, and in the case of the more popular rounds, that can be hundreds of loads. Over 60 loads are used to calculate the .500's values - all available on the site - they aren't "picked and chosen" to end up with a specific result.

2. The reason the .460 has an edge over all the other rounds - including the .500 - is it's maximum average working pressure of 65,000 psi. This is in the realm of high-performance short magnum rifle rounds and long-range competition cartridges - unheard of in handguns, especially revolvers. The .500 does not come close in the regard. Note that the .460 requires special manufacturing techniques the .500 doesn't need to prevent top-strap cutting and throat erosion. It also requires gain-twist rifling (1-in-100 inches at the start of rifling, 1-in-20 at end of barrel.), which the .500 does not. The .460 is simply a much hotter round.

The full ballistic comparison at http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92 shows how many loads are calculated into each average. The algorithm even uses a weighted average, meaning a predominance of loads using light or heavy bullets will not skew the result.

Mike Haas
author, http://ammoguide.com/

MachIVshooter
November 24, 2005, 04:21 PM
As the author of the program that generated the table, I respectfully differ with your assessment.

1. The Average muzzle energy for the .460 is based on 13 loads, the factory 200 grain load and 12 handloads using Hodgdon powders. The value for the .460 is definitely not that high because we "used a top Hornady load for the .460, and very sedate loads for all the rest" - we didn't! All available loads for all rounds are calculated for each round, and in the case of the more popular rounds, that can be hundreds of loads. Over 60 loads are used to calculate the .500's values - all available on the site - they aren't "picked and chosen" to end up with a specific result.

2. The reason the .460 has an edge over all the other rounds - including the .500 - is it's maximum average working pressure of 65,000 psi. This is in the realm of high-performance short magnum rifle rounds and long-range competition cartridges - unheard of in handguns, especially revolvers. The .500 does not come close in the regard. Note that the .460 requires special manufacturing techniques the .500 doesn't need to prevent top-strap cutting and throat erosion. It also requires gain-twist rifling (1-in-100 inches at the start of rifling, 1-in-20 at end of barrel.), which the .500 does not. The .460 is simply a much hotter round.

The full ballistic comparison at http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=30|239|144|193|143|221|389|92 shows how many loads are calculated into each average. The algorithm even uses a weighted average, meaning a predominance of loads using light or heavy bullets will not skew the result.

Mike Haas
author, http://ammoguide.com/

Disagree or not, your table does not represent the potential of the other cartridges. The small number of loads currently available for the .460 are all premium hunting loads, where the others have many lower-powered loads that you factor in. That would be like suggesting a GM vehicle has less torque than a Ferrari by averaging the torque of every vehicle in each companies line up. It would be foolish to assume that, by this conclusion, a Ferrari would out-pull a GM Kodiak 6500 HD just because GM has so many lower powered vehicles that bring down the average.

To make an accurate comparison, you have to take the top performers in each category and compare them, which is what I did.

And maximum working pressure as rated by SAAMI does not dictate a more powerful round. The .416 Rigby is more powerful than the .416 Rem mag, despite its lower pressures.

The .460 is a powerful round, but is not more potent than the .500 and is not half again a .454.

MikeHaas
November 24, 2005, 06:32 PM
Disagree or not....

>your table does not represent the potential of the other cartridges. The small number of loads currently available for the .460 are all premium hunting loads...

No, half the loads listed for the .460 are Starting loads, the other half are Maximum loads, as labeled by Hodgdon. Again, your claim is simply not factual. I am not picking and choosing data to arrive at a certain result, but it appears you may be.

>where the others have many lower-powered loads that you factor in. That would be like suggesting a GM vehicle has less torque than a Ferrari by averaging the torque of every vehicle in each companies line up. It would be foolish to assume that, by this conclusion, a Ferrari would out-pull a GM Kodiak 6500 HD just because GM has so many lower powered vehicles that bring down the average.

Automobiles? I'm afraid I fail to draw the similarity.

>To make an accurate comparison, you have to take the top performers in each category and compare them, which is what I did.

Never heard THAT before. When comparing two objects, it is usually not helpful to consider the extremes in one's available data. Such an approach is vulnerable to specific variations not related to the actual phenomenae under review. For example, a handgun with loose bore, moly'ed bore, tight chambers, etc. - these and other characteristics of a specific handgun will yield different ballistics than another handgun in the same caliber that is at the other end of the scale. The concept of weighted averages takes into account these other factors to a much greater degree and is a more reliable indication of what the average shooter can expect.

Besides, the .500 has 60 loads on AmmoGuide, and the .460 has only 12 (so far). It is likely that when the .460 has as many posted, it will include a load that exceed that .500 maximum load you want to hang your hat on as proof. That's another example why comparing exdtremes is not reliable.

>And maximum working pressure as rated by SAAMI does not dictate a more powerful round. The .416 Rigby is more powerful than the .416 Rem mag, despite its lower pressures.

Again, I believe your analysis is flawed. First, the.416 Rigby is a MUCH larger case - 122 gr. H2O vs. 97 gr. H2O. Who is picking and choosing data now? The Accurate Powder Co. would seem to agree with me: "...Although smaller than the .416 Rigby, the .416 Remington Magnum produces nearly the same ballistics because of its higher working pressure..." It's at http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerPowder2Guide/Rifle/AA2495/StandardloadsRifle/416%20Remington%20pages%20326%20and%20327.pdf#search='416%20Rigby%20416%20Remington%20magnum'

Common sense and basic ballistics tell us that, when dealing with similar bore sizes and bullet weights, that a round that develops higher pressure will produce higher velocities and energies. The .460 is simply more powerful because with similar case capcity, it can generate much higher pressures to expel similar-weight bullets than the .500. The .500 has nothing to make up this "edge" because it simply cannot be loaded as hot. When a 300 gr. something whatever leaves the barrel, velocity is determined purely by how much acceleration can be applied to the bullet, not to the caliber stamped on the bottom of the case. That acceleration is determined by the amount of pressure pushing on the base of the bullet (and firearm variations such as friction coefficient of the barrel and other variables INDEPENDANT of the ammunition.)

>The .460 is a powerful round, but is not more potent than the .500 and is not half again a .454.[/QUOTE]

That case has yet to be made. It is usually helpful in a discussiont to come up with some verifiable facts rather than stating your opinion as fact. Unfortunately, your opinion violates a few rules of physics as far I can determine.

Both are very powerful rounds, surely the most powerful 2 in the world.

UnTainted
November 29, 2005, 05:27 PM
I think I've found the perfect niche for the .460 S&W... Montana elk hunting in the Restricted Weapons zone, where only handguns or shotguns can be used.

"Handguns" have to utilize straight-walled cartridges designed for handguns (eliminating the .45-70 in a BFR, I guess).

My slug gun is not accurate beyond 100 yards, but this seems to extend my range nicely.

So, either crawl closer or come up with a $1000 for one hunt. Well, I guess my kneepads will last one more year.

OK, SO YOU'VE GOT ME INTERESTED NOW...

I got the 460 mag 2 weeks ago and I'm very interested in finding hunts where handguns have an advantage or are allowed when rifles aren't. what can you tell me about the montana restricted hunts?

thanks.

newfalguy101
November 29, 2005, 05:32 PM
k I'll bite How powerful IS a S&W .460 :neener: :neener:

Cosmoline
November 29, 2005, 05:33 PM
Averaging out the loads does make the .460 appear to have more of an edge than it really does. I don't know too many tables that cite "AVERAGE" loads. I don't even know what that's supposed to tell us. The .308 is loaded in hundreds of configurations and can certainly best any handgun in a standard hunting load let alone a light magnum at near 3,000 ft lbs. If you want to compare maximum potential power, you cite the maximum potential loads and compare them. If you want to cite maximum potential range of loads, you cite the smallest and the largest and compare the spread. But what does the "average" load tell us? It may just tell us that one cartridge covers more ground than another.

WHat's an "average" .308 load? Does it even really exist? Do I care? You should redo the chart showing maximum possible loads, since that's what we're really interested in when we ask "just how powerful is the xxxx"

MachIVshooter
November 30, 2005, 02:41 AM
No, half the loads listed for the .460 are Starting loads, the other half are Maximum loads, as labeled by Hodgdon. Again, your claim is simply not factual. I am not picking and choosing data to arrive at a certain result, but it appears you may be.

That is exactly what I am doing. I am picking the top loads for each cartridge.


Automobiles? I'm afraid I fail to draw the similarity.

:confused: The similarity is in the ill-concieved logic of this averaging technique. Again, compare comparable items, not the average or medium of a sum that is heavily weighted. Apples to apples, if you will.


>To make an accurate comparison, you have to take the top performers in each category and compare them, which is what I did.

Never heard THAT before. When comparing two objects, it is usually not helpful to consider the extremes in one's available data. Such an approach is vulnerable to specific variations not related to the actual phenomenae under review. For example, a handgun with loose bore, moly'ed bore, tight chambers, etc. - these and other characteristics of a specific handgun will yield different ballistics than another handgun in the same caliber that is at the other end of the scale. The concept of weighted averages takes into account these other factors to a much greater degree and is a more reliable indication of what the average shooter can expect.

We are not comparing different guns and are not arguing a finite 2 or 3 ft/lbs of energy here. We are talking about substantial differences. And in case you hadn't noticed, virtually all publications will compare top performers. To cite automobiles again, when Car&Driver does Mitsubishi vs. Subaru, they compare the Lancer Evo and the WRX, not a 3000GT VR4 vs. Legacy Wagon.


Besides, the .500 has 60 loads on AmmoGuide, and the .460 has only 12 (so far). It is likely that when the .460 has as many posted, it will include a load that exceed that .500 maximum load you want to hang your hat on as proof. That's another example why comparing exdtremes is not reliable.

Sure it is. If that is ever the case, then the .460 will hold the title.


>And maximum working pressure as rated by SAAMI does not dictate a more powerful round. The .416 Rigby is more powerful than the .416 Rem mag, despite its lower pressures.

Again, I believe your analysis is flawed. First, the.416 Rigby is a MUCH larger case - 122 gr. H2O vs. 97 gr. H2O. Who is picking and choosing data now? The Accurate Powder Co. would seem to agree with me: "...Although smaller than the .416 Rigby, the .416 Remington Magnum produces nearly the same ballistics because of its higher working pressure..." It's at [URL]

Ahhh, you got what I was saying:First, the.416 Rigby is a MUCH larger case . Hence it's greater potential despite lower pressure. And the .500 is a larger case than the .460.

Common sense and basic ballistics tell us that, when dealing with similar bore sizes and bullet weights, that a round that develops higher pressure will produce higher velocities and energies. The .460 is simply more powerful because with similar case capcity, it can generate much higher pressures to expel similar-weight bullets than the .500. The .500 has nothing to make up this "edge" because it simply cannot be loaded as hot. When a 300 gr. something whatever leaves the barrel, velocity is determined purely by how much acceleration can be applied to the bullet, not to the caliber stamped on the bottom of the case. That acceleration is determined by the amount of pressure pushing on the base of the bullet (and firearm variations such as friction coefficient of the barrel and other variables INDEPENDANT of the ammunition.)

I agree with most of this, except the "similar bore size and bullet weight". .048" is a HUGE difference in the world of small arms, and last I checked there are no 600 grain pills in .452" or .454" diameter

>The .460 is a powerful round, but is not more potent than the .500 and is not half again a .454.

That case has yet to be made. It is usually helpful in a discussiont to come up with some verifiable facts rather than stating your opinion as fact. Unfortunately, your opinion violates a few rules of physics as far I can determine.

That has been done. Nothing in this thread regarding cartridge power has included my opinion. Sources are Hornady, Winchester, Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Sierra, Barnes, Speer, Accurate Arms, IMR, Hodgdon, Freedom Arms and Cartridges of the World. I can gather a few more if you like.


Both are very powerful rounds, surely the most powerful 2 in the world.

Finally, something to agree on.

On that note, I am done arguing. It is your website and you can compare as you like. Just don't expect praise for it.

UnTainted
December 1, 2005, 01:55 PM
Go to

http://www.gunsandammomag.com

to get ballistics charts for penty of cals.

the 460 is about 2300 feet per second and 2450 lbs muzzle energy. I'll be clocking it myself soon. It doesn't kick as bad as I would have expected with the hunter-compensated barrel from the performance center. i haven't shot the standard 8 inch 460 revolver. p.s. i checked their website, they still haven't updated it with the 460, but it has 500 data. their 2006 annual (on the shelves right now) has the 460 ballistics as well.

UnTainted

Lichen
February 20, 2007, 12:29 AM
Hey, guys,

I am new here...I have been lurking a little bit for a week or two. It took me about a week to do enough research to make the decision to buy a new 460 XVR. I have owned a .44 mag for a long time, and various rifles and pistols and I'm an arrow shooter, too. I was aware of the .454Casull for some time, and had fired one a few times.I was very impressed.

But I am now the proud owner of a new 460 S&W XVR, 8 3/8" barrel.

I have several different types of .454 Casull rounds, a lot of Cowboy Colts, and the Hornady 200gr 'lipstick' rounds, as my wife calls them. I took them to task, along with my .44 mag, to compare these rounds as to penetrating power. I use a peice of 1/2-inch mild steel for this purpose. I set it up at 20 yards, and popped it with the .44 mag first, then the 225gr long Colt, then a 240gr Casull, a 300gr Casull, and finally the 200gr lipstick bullet.

My .270 pops right through that half-inch steel, even at 100 yards. The Colt .45 rounds barely even dent it at all. The .44 mag puts a respectable ding in it, and so does the 240gr Casull. The 300gr Casull put deep gouge in it. But the lipstick round put a much bigger, deeper pit, shaped like a flower.The Casull round left a much smaller, shallow gouge, much less impressive. The lighter, faster Hornady round is amazing. The 460 is a very strong revolver.

Lichen
March 2, 2007, 09:05 PM
I have a question for you guys with more reloading experience than I have:

I started out with a pound of Unique powder, and was told in a sort of off-hand manner that it's not the right powder. Can someone explain why this powder is wrong? Why does it expand the cases more than Lil' Gun?

I am chasing the limits. I have already found out that if I put a few grains more Unique powder than recommended, it swells the casings out tight in the cylinder. But I just put 39.5 grains of Lil Gun in a 454 Casull round with -admittedly- a 200grain bullet, and it fired fine, didn't swell the casing at all, and made but a little dent in the steel.


By the way, for those who feel the Casull is only a little less powerful than the 460 XVR, I have some interesting comparisons to make:

There is no Casull round to be found that will punch through this piece of 5/16" steel I found. However, the 460 does it easily. Almost all my handloads have, including various experiments with Lil Gun powder, up to 50 grains of powder in both 200gr and 250gr bullets.

Why does the Unique powder swell the casings? Is it just a more powerful powder, or is it something else?

P95Carry
March 2, 2007, 09:27 PM
I am chasing the limits

All I can say is if you playing with Unique to ''chase limits'' then you are using a powder that is IMO way over the top for burning speed, dangerously so.

I would class Unique as a mid range powder with a bias towards fast - and is well up on the burning rate chart compared with such ''hot'' load powders as 2400, H-110 etc. That said it could be used to produce light ''powder puff'' loads, I'll grant you, but even so generating a faster burn the pressure peak is likely to be much higher than desirable This is not the same BTW as ''more powerful''! - it just produces a much faster pressure rise.

I have already found out that if I put a few grains more Unique powder than recommended, it swells the casings out tight in the cylinder

I am not surprised and wonder what recommendations were followed because if you are loading to excess with this sort of powder you are treading on very thin ice IMO. I have no loads to hand for 460 but certainly when I reload my .454 I put a 300 grainer over H-110 and would imagine using a similar powder with 460 for full loads.

As for intentional light loads for that - I would not even bother and would put .45LC ammo thru the gun!

SnWnMe
March 3, 2007, 12:41 AM
Lichen = the next Elmer Keith:what:

Lichen
March 3, 2007, 10:51 PM
I took the 460 out to pop some rounds today and while doing so, I used a pine tree to sort of steady my gun while I slowly squeezed the trigger...the tree was on the right side, and when she exploded, the blast gas escaping from in between the forcing cone and the cylinder blasted the bark loose with enough force to splatter my face.

I had 53 grains of lil gun in that load...and it was a caution. I felt then that I was indeed playing with fire and so I decided that was way too much powder for that load...it was a 250gr hornady hollow point, and it had swelled ever so slightly in the chamber. So I came back to the bench and reloaded them to 50grns. I will see now. I am getting some serious punch out of this monster magnum, beats the hell out of the 454 casull, hands down. You simply can't fit as much powder, not by ten grains, and that makes for a BIG difference. As far as I am concerned, the debate between the Casull and the 460 is waaay over. I can't load the casull hot enough to penetrate 5/16 steel; in fact, it's not even close.

The 460 is an entirely different machine from anything else I have ever owned, hands down.

I believe that if the cases are not swelling, I am safe. Now I need some stainless steel cases, so I can pump them up just a little bit higher...I believe the 460 will be hard to beat and soon I will invest in a chronometer so I can see what I am getting out of this indomitable revolver.I believe it's possible to punch it up to 2,600fps and 2,500foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Furthermore, I believe the specs are too tame by 25%, of course they are, they set the bar way low in order to make sure everyone is safe.

I just hope I don't blow myself up.

P95Carry
March 3, 2007, 11:32 PM
I just hope I don't blow myself up.

I hope so too - but I get the impression you are dabbling a little incautiously from your descriptions.

Even X frames can be blown up - and the shooter too if unlucky.

Please play it safe.

(Are you reading other posts - or was my comment re Unique a waste of typing time?)

dejr2000
March 4, 2007, 12:25 AM
I believe that if the cases are not swelling, I am safe. Now I need some stainless steel cases, so I can pump them up just a little bit higher
I just hope I don't blow myself up

This is insane. What is the point of all this that makes it worth taking that kind of risk?

SnWnMe
March 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
Ransom Rest and Lanyard will be a wise investment at this point :D

454c
March 4, 2007, 01:41 AM
I don't think wisdom fits in this mission of self destruction.

CrawdaddyJim
March 4, 2007, 01:28 PM
Ummmm...... Six posts in one thread and started off with a "mall ninja" take on the 454/460 debate. Guess you have to start somewhere. Just a suggestion for Lichen. Google up some pictures of blown up wheel guns and blown up guns in general. But if you want to cut to the chase just pull the pin on a pineapple and don't throw it. Seriously man you need to read the manual first and then reread it. Dead is permanent. But if you don't want to go in that direction can I get you to video your tests?:D Should make for alltime high ratings on youtube.

GSPKurt
March 4, 2007, 09:01 PM
Dead is permanent.

WHAT HE SAID!

Ratchet it down another 3 notches and work up SLOWLY!!:scrutiny:

ARTiger
March 4, 2007, 09:46 PM
I believe that if the cases are not swelling, I am safe. Now I need some stainless steel cases, so I can pump them up just a little bit higher

Not going to be pretty when the firing pin assembly, hammer and whole top-back of the gun come flying back at 2K FPS. :eek:

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 02:24 AM
I took several guns down to a place by the rio grand between taos and espanola within sight of the massive jemez volcano today with a friend, and the 460 with my 50gr handloads...and a few hotter, at 53gr lil gun.

I am a bit wary of this wheelgun, because it's so dam powerful, and unfortunately it blasted thru the canvas sandbag I was using as a rest...shot grains of sand in my face...

But frankly, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the hornady lipstick rounds and my hotter handloads, except that my own punched much neater holes in the steel wheel rim we were using. The blast and recoil of this monster magnum are simply incredible, especially with my handloads of 53gr 250gr hornady hollowpoints...punches perfect holes that looklike drilled machine holes 3/4" diameter.

Will this X-frame really pop backwards in my face?

Remember Dick Casull scooping up a load fulla Unique, seating a bullet, and pulling it with a lanyard? His puny round did no damage to his 6-shot wheelgun; the 460S&W XVR X-Frame 5-shot stainless is considerably thicker and stronger. And the shells do not swell appreciably. It's a testament to the superiority of the mag. Even pushed as far as I will dare them, these rounds will not swell the shells with that powder.

I have searched the net far and wide to find anyone who has blown up a 460S&W...Nobody has. If I had the money and time, I'd load it up with the hottest mag rifle powder compressed and pull it with a lanyard repeatedly until it blew up just to see how much it can take. But unfortunatelt, I only can afford the one gun, and my one life. So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? There is already a MR 45-70 BFR; I doubt its construction is any more robust than the 460. Do I have any chance of recieving positive constructive input data from this forum, or do I have to do this experimentation all on my own?

SnWnMe
March 5, 2007, 02:27 AM
We have no constructive data to provide because... we've never tried loading em like that.

Good on you to push the envelope though. Just please take lots of care (and notes).

454c
March 5, 2007, 02:54 AM
Quote:
***So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? ***





If you have to ask.....

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 03:23 AM
454,

I have seen you respond with sanity to all things casull. However, casull didn't make 460.

I guess (educated) that I am the one willing to push the xOMGTABMFOvr. You seem like a very very safe-player.

Is there anyone willing to play beyond safe?

come on down

454c
March 5, 2007, 04:41 AM
Whether it's a 22 Hornet or 600 Nitro, there's a safe and sane method to exploring the upper limits of a cartridge, any cartridge in any gun. You don't seem interested or concerned. I wish you the best of luck.

rolltide
March 5, 2007, 09:27 AM
Lichen if you are for real, you need to seriously do some more learning about powder burn rates, pressure spikes, and the cumulative effects of extreme pressure and metal fatigue. You seem to have little appreciation for the fact that a few grains over max of a fast burning powder can spike the pressure exponentially. If you don't understand that statement (and your buying a pound of Unique for experimentation indicates that you might not), you have no business reloading at all until you learn more about it. As far as I am concerned, you ARE on your own if you want to "play beyond safe." Please don't abuse that gun then sell it to someone else. Keep it, destroy it, or at least have the cylinder replaced so that someone else doesn't pay the price for your "playing." You can over stress that cylinder to the point that a few more factory rounds at 65K psi might blow up the gun on you or someone else. Also bear in mind that an over limit load that did not blow your gun up on a cool day in Feb. may blow your gun up on a hot day in July. Please don't have some ususpecting friend or family member standing close by when you "play beyond safe." Your own life and the lives of others are nothing to play around with.

As many here have said, BE SAFE my friend, for your own sake and the sake of those close to you.

Roll Tide

ARTiger
March 5, 2007, 11:10 AM
Here are some quotes from the guy who designed the gun, Herb Belin, S&W's handgun project manager:

"With the .500, the goal, obviously, was raw horsepower. When we put the .500 to bed, I'd already decided on my next step. And the .454 Casull was my target. The .460 Magnum was designed to be flat-shooting with a big-game perimeter of 250 yards--assuming a 10-inch kill circle and a mass of body hold. I think the .460 is a better choice for North American big game than the .500.

The substantial pressures developed by the .460 required some innovative engineering. It wouldn't do to simply stick smaller holes in the .500 and stamp ".460 S&W" on the barrel.

A mirror-smooth forcing-cone face helps prevent erosion from what Herb refers to in nonengineering terms as a "screamin' hot blast of gas." Any tool marks or imperfections could channel that hot blast up toward the topstrap, resulting in flame-cutting.

Another pressure concession: a firing-pin bushing the size of the .460's case head for additional support. In Herb's words, "It's a great big ol' circle" as opposed to the smaller bushing diameter of the .500 model. "
Reading that, it tells me they have already pushed the envelope just for this gun to shoot what it's rated for. Exceed that and you're playing with fire. Also, metal fatigue builds on a cumulative basis. Shoot overpressure loads and you may be able to fire 1, 5 or even 100 rounds before the 2nd., 6th., or 101st. round bursts something. Given the extreme pressures involved, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near when (not if) that happens.

Firing even a few overpressure loads may harm the metal to an extent that it will violently burst even with standard pressure loads at some point in the future.

Take the advice above and at least never sell that gun or use it in an area where others would be hazarded by the owner's foolishness. Otherwise, it's your life . . . as had been said "dead is permanent".

Shawn Michael
March 5, 2007, 04:38 PM
Good post!

The fact that aspect of this massive revolver had to be reworked for the insane pressures, the barrel burnout problems and the claims and decreasing accuracy down the road steered me away from the .460. These claims may be exaggerated or in some cases unfounded, but I tend to go with a "where there is smoke there is fire" attitude.

What makes the 460 so appealing is the "three guns in one" versitility but as one of our senior members points out

"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."

I dont have the knowledge base to dispute this, but it these are not the type of things that inspire confidence in a 1200$ purchase.

I also believe, based on what I have read and learned here, that the .460 really shines 1) with a long barrel 2) out at long ranges. For me long range and long barrel = rifle. The x-frames look and feel pretty balanced with 7 or so inches of barrel, but when you start with the super long 10 inch barrels it did not look or handle to my liking.

In terms of doing something really different from a 454 the edge does not seem that big. There is no doubt that there is more room to load it up, but reading the above post you tend to think where the 460 is now is pretty close to the limit. I think the 454 is just an amazing round.

"You might want to look again.The closest apples to apples comparison I've found so far is from Cor Bon.

454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 300gr.JSP - 1,650 fps

460 - 8.375"brl. - 300gr.JSp - 1,750 fps


454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 320gr. fppn - 1,600 fps

460 - 8.375" brl. - 325gr. bc - 1,650 fps


Keep an eye on the barrel length.The 460 has an edge of only 50-100 fps with a longer barrel.What do you think is gonna happen when you lose 3.375" of barrel length ?"

These things turned me away from the .460 which, due to its versitility just seemed like a much smarter buy than the .500

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 09:54 PM
I know there is a way to examine the cylinder with infrared or ultraviolet to determine if there are stress cracks in the steel. But I am not certain where to go...I could surely find out, given the power of the net.

When the shell has expanded to fit tightly in the chamber, you have gone too far. Obviously, I tried a couple of cylinders worth of too hot rounds, and they swelled the shells so that they were hard to extract: but is it reasonable to assume this has compromised the integrity of the steel? Stainless is pretty tough stuff.

454, your terse impatient responses are unhelpful.

In determining the highest possible yield, it is imperative to test the limits. If a shell casing has expanded tightly in the chamber, the test has reached the limits.

I am looking for tech support here...but like with many other arenas, it is most likely I will have to spend money beyond what I have already invested to get collaborating data that will actually be helpful.

I would use the head-pounding action-figure over there if I thought it to be appropriate, but I don't. Just a little less bull would be helpful.

However, I have found several additions to this thread to be helpful, and please don't get me wrong. I have had 45 colt cases expand with 25gr of unique...I highly doubt this has caused cylinder degredation.

P95Carry
March 5, 2007, 10:05 PM
We have a member who is known for pushing limits - it is either ''Clarke" or "Clark" .......... not sure how often he drops in but you could PM him and see if he has some thoughts.

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 10:11 PM
Thanks for that. I will try him.

One thing that I have noticed that gives me pause is the erosion of the face of the forcing cone.

It is pitted and worn, and badly. Brand-new gun, and I didn't notice this until yesterday.
Thoughts?

Lichen
March 5, 2007, 10:22 PM
And, BTW, if anyone here has a 460, take it to a 5/16" steel plate at 25 yards, pop a 454 casull round at it, and then try the hornady 460 200gr bullet. It will open your eyes to the answer to the question that started this thread.

454 casull vs. 460S&W? No contest. period. 454 casull is a wimp, not much better than a hot 45 colt. Try it on steel plate for yourself, and you will see. Use factory rounds, and your surprise will rebound against your conscience, flatter your imagination...and astound anyone who still thinks the 454 casull has anything to say at all in the world of modern handgun development.

The debate is pointless.

454, member name, challenge yourself to see the difference. You'll be surprised. By the way, maybe you could take a friend who owns a 460 out to the range, for comparison, since you don't own one.


How bout the eroded forcing cone?

P95Carry
March 5, 2007, 10:23 PM
Could be the forcing cone will suffer, altho some erosion is IMO normal.

I have a .686 which has some very obvious flame cutting on the top strap but that seems self limiting as is also a degree of erosion on a forcing cone.
Hot gasses do have their effect!.

Not so sure I'd want to see real pitting tho so hard to tell here whether this is excessive or not without pictorial evidence.

This is 686 flame cutting - from lots (I mean lots) of heavy .357's from last owner. Gun now used for PPC and light loads and shoots a dream. I know this top strap but I daresay quite a bit of forcing cone erosion can be tolerated - as long as cyl gap does not enlarge to excess perhaps.


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot6/flamecut-686--s113.jpg

454c
March 5, 2007, 11:28 PM
Helpful criticism is always unhelpful when it falls on the ears of those seeking a cheering squad.

If I'm ever attacked by a herd of screaming beer cans, I'll keep these test in mind but, I can't say that I'm gonna put on a blindfold and start grabbing powder and measurements to confirm the results.

Shawn Michael
March 6, 2007, 03:47 AM
I put this quote in my post above reguarding the 460. Does this seem accurate?

"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."

1) Does that make sense?
2) Is the same true for shooting 45 LC out of a 454 super redhawk? If so then the interchangeable rounds seem to have some drawbacks

ARTiger
March 6, 2007, 10:05 AM
I put this quote in my post above reguarding the 460. Does this seem accurate?

"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."

1) Does that make sense?
2) Is the same true for shooting 45 LC out of a 454 super redhawk? If so then the interchangeable rounds seem to have some drawbacks

I shoot .45 LC and .454 regularly in mine. Just have to clean the cylinder well. Also helps to start with the longer cased rounds in an extended shooting session. I.e.: Start shooting .460's, then .454's then .45's.

The accuracy with .45 colt shells has been exceptional. I shoot cast bullets mostly and have not seen any leading.

After 1500 rounds, mixed with about 700 being .460, my forcing cone shows negligible erosion, there is a "line" on the top strap, but very faint - more of a powder residue deposit than flame cutting.

I just bought the dies to reload this rounds and have shot factory .460 so far - wanted to accumulate enough brass first. Will be loading the .454 down or .45 up for deer hereout though. The one I took with a full house .460 load ruined a lot of meat.

I really like the gun, the caliber and the concept. Whereas I would not buy a .500, this gun is very useful to me.

Regards,
Art

Lichen
March 6, 2007, 11:34 AM
P95Carry,

Wow, that's a lot more wear than anything I've seen...and even though the angle of the shot does not allow for viewing the forcing cone clearly, I can still see it's much more worn than mine. I suppose it's to be expected. And surely these components can be replaced---for a price.


Quote:

"I put this quote in my post above reguarding the 460. Does this seem accurate?

"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."

1) Does that make sense?
2) Is the same true for shooting 45 LC out of a 454 super redhawk? If so then the interchangeable rounds seem to have some drawbacks"

Yes, I wuld say this is probably true---but it's gonna take a lot of shooting to get there. And accuracy with the 45 colt and Casull both are outstanding. I can't tell any difference. The flinch factor even makes the tamer rounds seem to be more accurate than the giant one. It takes real concentration to shoot the 460 because it's hard to get used to the blast. It would probably be easier to shoot without the compensator (less muzzle blast) but the recoil gets hard to handle pretty fast.

MCgunner
March 6, 2007, 11:48 AM
Well, I don't really wanna carry a handgun afield that's heavier than either my scoped contender or M7 Remington in .308. :rolleyes: Well, it may not be heavier, but it ain't light for hiking. Be a good hunting handgun, but I don't need that kind of power for deer and hogs and there ain't no elephants in Texas. If there were, I'd buy a .460 Weatherby, anyway.

Handguns of this level are over the top to me. Anything past .454 casull and I'm out. I used to think the same about Contenders, though, until I got one, so whadda I know. Cheaper to remain ignorant, I guess. :D

Be a good caliber for a lever carbine, but then, I guess the .45-70 sort of makes it redundant. Then, too, I COULD get a .45-70 barrel for my Contender if I were masochistic, a hand held artillery piece.

Lichen
March 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
Yes, it's a really heavy gun...and even the super blackhawk .44 mag I have is really heavy for hiking. But I suppose if I were to go to Alaska, I'd be happy to take the big gun, just in case.

460 Weatherby is an awesome gun...8,000 foot pounds of kinetic energy, wowsers.

A herd of screaming beercans? LOL...

I shot the 460 XVR at a steel wheel rim a hundred yards away, and I found out that at that distance, a lot of punch is gone already. Still plenty to kill with, I'm sure, but sort of disapointing. Of course, we were hitting it with my .44mag, too, which at 100 yards barely marked that wheel rim. It was made out of some pretty tough stuff, hardened steel.

I wonder if there's any real point in hunting with the 460 if it's going to ruin meat...unless I can get a headshot or a neck shot. Meantime, I'll just use my winchester .270 for that. It works much better for neck shots, which are my favorite.

VC
March 8, 2007, 01:46 PM
Dear Reader,

I stumbled into the ongoing discussion about pushing the limits of the new .460 revolver somewhat by accident. Ordinarily I would not engage in such an on line debate about anything, but what I read moved me so that I joined THR for the sole purpose of responding to the efforts of one individual to find the edge of the envelope regarding the .460 cartridge. Stated another way, I felt I had a duty to respond in the hopes of saving someone, or thier family from an otherwise horrible and unnecessary tradgedy.

To be clear, I own a .460. I researched the weapon for months before I purchased it and read everything I could find about its benefits before trading in my beloved .44 mag on the new .460 I bought. I even waited until the initial modifications to the reciever were standard - not an after thought to the production line. In all, I thought I had made a rational and well considered purchase, which as a researcher (my previous life) I was compelled to do.

For background, I now work as a farmer. I must carry a weapon daily for safety (cougars) and crop damage control (black tail deer). My .44 was a good weapon but not capable - unscoped in my hands - of humane kills at the distances I must acquire and quickly respond to threats with. Including at night, when most of our work must be done. The .460 as "advertised" sounded like a reasonable solution to our problems and the gain twist feature something I could understand and believe in. The "advertisd" recoil sounded manageable - including off-hand - which at night is a necessity whan the other has a light or other gear in it. [We have all the permits required to control crop damage at night; it is regulated but legal].

Anyway, the weapon I first recieved was nothing of what I expected and very little of what was "advertized." I will spare you the litany and cut to the chase here:

That weapon started to jamb and impede cylinder rotation and casing extraction by about the 50th FACTORY 200 Gr. SST load. It went back to the manufacturer FOUR times before they themselves replaced it in whole. The last replacement is now back at the factory UNFIRED as it had obvious flaws that even the dealer through whom this saga has evolved noticed on unpacking.

This exchange has taken about six months to evolve and I must say that while it has been frustrating to spend a thousand dollars on a weapon that is essentially useless and manifestly dangerous to me, the manufacturer has been patient and ultimately lived up to thier lifetime warantee. It did take more effort than I thought it needed to to recognize in the first weapon that the cylinder bore shape had changed and to admit that being able to fire more than two consecutive rounds without having to "hammer" the casings out or reseat unfired cartridge so the cylinder could rotate again... was a bit unrealistic in a "here comes the cougar again" situation.

To restate the obvious: the above was with FACTORY loads and I saved all the brass I could remove from the weapon to prove it - though 10 rounds went back to the manufacturer stuck in the cylinder (on two sepreate returns).

From a practical standpoint, I had come to the opinion that this could be a fine weapon for my use if it was DOWN loaded to a more manageable recoil level and muzzel flash. I did get tired of being hit in the face with ejected mass on every discharge as well (left side only ??) and that there is absolutely no good reason to support the weapon on the hood of my truck, the side of a trellis post, or other object unless you wanted to flame cut that object too or suffer further ejected mass.

I could go on, but simply close with an appeal to the writer determined to push the envelope of the .460... Buy a TC single shot and experiment with that in a vise and a leash if you must persist in this risk to your life. There was a great comparison article between the two weapons in the same calibre in a popular shooting magazine some time ago that I think you would appreciate.

Also, find the copy of HANDLOADER magazine that specifically described safe - and unsafe - ranges for this cartridge and how to get what you are looking for in terms of performance from this round.

Last, I appeal to your senses with sincere respect for the life of another human being: what possibly can you accomplish that would not be better served by a simple change in projectile mass and shape? CorBon has already tried all the experiments either of us will probably concieve and put safe rounds of all descriptions on the shelf for our use. If you still feel like you need more than say a 395 grain hard cast bullet has to offer in that calibre then maybe you are trying to turn the .460 into a Barret .50, which I for one would not find very practical to ride around o the tractor with...

I your defense: I made a good living pushing the envelope in many scientific realms and practical applications. I respect that ability and need in a person but can state from experience that your faith in "stainless" or the repeatable accuracy (manufacturing error and tolerances) in this case are way overstated. In fact they are dangerous assumptions.

With this I remain yet a loyal S&W customer, but a wiser one than I was before "experimenting" with this weapon. May you be more fortunate.

Lichen
March 9, 2007, 10:14 PM
I stand appreciative of the previous post. Thanks for your words of caution and your valuable experiences.

For the record, the only shells that became stuck in my new 460 were ones I purposely loaded to 53 grains in the 460 round, 23gr in the 45 colt, and 48 grains in the 454 casull.

Otherwise, I have no problems. I have found I can load the 460 shell to 50gr with no shell expansion strong enough to make it hard to eject the shells. I can see no stress cracks, and the cylinder turns fine. The gun works perfectly, and if it ever malfunctions, I will report it here.

I also appreciate the words of encouragement viv-a-vis buying a TC and putting it in a vice with a leash, and someday, I may do just that. I'll find the hottest powder and compact it in the shell, and see what I can get in blowing holes in 1/2" steel plate and speed over a chrono...but for now, I'll just load my 460 rounds about 2grains hot, and call it good enough while I attempt to master the actual firing with accuracy of this monster magnum.

If it does blow up on me, and I live through it, I will bring the tale here first.

Shane

Redhawk1
March 10, 2007, 10:59 AM
I have been shooting the 460 Mag for a few years now, I never had a problem with anything at all. My buddies that bought some of my 460 Mag are not having any problem either. One of my buddies only shoots the factory 200 gr. bullets in his. He has shot the heck out of that gun. Me I reload and shoot 300 and 325 gr. hard cast bullets only in mine. Not one problem with any of the 460 Mags I have owned.
Here is the list of 460's I have owned. 2 of the 7.5 inch PC models 2 of the 8 3/8 inch models and a 5 inch. I only have one of my PC models left, all my buddies now own the others.

But no problem with any of the 460 Mag at all.

Lichen
March 10, 2007, 12:11 PM
Redhawk,

Does your 460 mag show any flame cutting? Does the forcing cone show much pitting?

How many rounds have you touched off through it? (The one you use the most, I assume it's a pc model, the only one you have left?) Do you just plink with it, or what?

I have figured my reloads at $.25 apiece, as opposed to the $1.35 for factory loads. Pretty cheap plinking, overall.

Also, I'd appreciate some feedback from you on my stuper-loads. I have backed off, and fear for my safety (a healthy fear, I'm certain) has made me decide to keep them down perhaps just a grain or so above recommended loads. What are your thoughts on whether I have possibly weakened my 460 mag to the point it's now dangerous?

Redhawk1
March 10, 2007, 12:24 PM
Lichen, my PC model have about 1400 rounds fired through it. 99% have been 460 Mag loads. All reloads, no factory ammo. I have no signs of flame cutting what so ever and no erosion in the forcing cone. When I am plinking with my 460 Mag, it is with 460 Mag ammo that I hunt with, I bought my guns to shot the 460 Mag. I don't care for the 454 Casull or 45 Colt rounds in my 460 Mag, I have other guns made for them rounds. If I want to shoot 45 Colts, I will shoot my Ruger Blackhawk, you get the idea.

I could not tell you if you have done any damage or not to your gun with them loads you were shooting, the only way is to have the gun magna fluxed to see if there is any cracks or damage done. My advice to you is, stay within the reloading data, no need to go over recommended data. If you want to shot hot 454 Casull's, just jump to the 460 Mags.

VC
March 25, 2007, 12:10 AM
Dear Reader,

After three replacement weapons I regret to report that the last is no better than the first and scheduled to be returned in due course for a new .44.

Given the failure of the third replacement weapon I again caution you to please be careful with even factory ammunition, inspect the weapon carefully and regularly with use, and above all to take a scientific and ratinal approach to experiments with this platform.

Last, if you don't believe me: search the web for the videos of it being blown out of peoples hands, scopes being torn off by the recoil, and pictures of the muzzle flash travelling backwards towards the shooter. There are more posted every day...

I really wanted this weapon to work for me, in my aplication, as an everyday companion. As it stands, it is with regret that I feel the safest and most responsible thing I can do is to return to farming life armed with "just" a .44.

Nevertheless, I wish you better fortune and peace,

VC

Redhawk1
March 26, 2007, 01:20 PM
VC, you lost me. Are you talking about the 460 MAG?? If so, it is news to me about all the "videos of it being blown out of peoples hands, scopes being torn off by the recoil, and pictures of the muzzle flash traveling backwards towards the shooter." Now the only thing I can agree with is the muzzle flash, but it is nothing that will hurt the shooter.

I have never and I mean never seen a S&W 460 mag fly out of anyone's hand, as for the scope, it could of been a poor mounting system. Like I said, I have owned 5 of the S&W 460 mags, all with a scope or red-dot, and I never had a scope fly off. That is with thousands of rounds fired. :D

These are handguns, or a firearm, not Weapons as you keep calling them . "A weapon is an item that is intended for use in combat - to injure, kill, disarm or incapacitate an opponent or victim, or to otherwise render resources non-functional or unavailable.

Weapons may be used to attack and defend, and consequently also to threaten or protect. Metaphorically, anything used to damage (even psychologically) can be referred to as a weapon. A weapon can be as simple as a club or as complex as an intercontinental ballistic missile."

"A handgun is a firearm designed to be used in a handheld fashion. This handheld character differentiates handguns as a general class of firearms"

:D

NavyLCDR
March 26, 2007, 04:21 PM
Wow, What an old thread going on!

My wife got her .460 for Christmas. She (and myself somewhat) have shot probably 500 rounds through it, about 90% reloaded .460. We have had one problem - when I first started reloading I worked up a box of 250 gr bullets with only 35gr of H110. Don't ask me what I was thinking. She got powder burns on one hand because of inadequate ignition due to too little powder. I now load 46grains H110 behind the 250gr bullet, but I prefer Lil' Gun over the H110.

I think the video's of the gun flying out of the hand and scopes ripped off, etc are the custom built .500 (or .600) Nitro Express on an Encore (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/363927/nitro_express_pistol/). We love the .460 and have not seen any signs of wear. It's great when my wife starts shooting at the indoor range - she will shoot a box of 20 at a time - and usually attracts a lot of attention.

MikeHaas
June 30, 2007, 09:58 PM
I had 53 grains of lil gun in that load...and it was a caution. I felt then that I was indeed playing with fire and so I decided that was way too much powder for that load...it was a 250gr hornady hollow point
Where did you get the value of 53 grains? I don't own a .460, but a 250 gr bullet in front of 53 gr. Lil'Gun appears to be dangerously overloaded in the .460 - likely in the realm of proof loads. it's maximum working pressure is STILL only in the area of 65KPSI.

I must caution you to learn about the concept of a STARTING LOAD, otherwise you are certain to experience a major failure sooner or later, no matter what gun, no matter what cartridge.

I looked on my site...
.460 Smith & Wesson Magnum - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=389
...and found a (non-starting) Lil'Gun load for a 250 grain bullet. Based on the "reduce by 5%" rule, I would have started with about 40 grains. I don't have a 250 gr bullet/Lil'Gun maximum load listed, but I suspect 53 is several grains above it. For a 260 gr. bullet, a maximum Lil'Gun charge is about 46 grains.

Using charge weights calculated by the seat of your pants is not a safe approach to reloading. If you have a reloading resource that recommended that load, what was it? They should be informed.

Be careful out there, now - every taxpayer is important! :-)

Mike Haas
http://AmmoGuide.com/

BM59
February 5, 2008, 08:35 PM
I took advantage of the S&W employee's discount offered at the range I work at towards the end of last month, and since S&W was offering their $99 Sigma special with the purchase of a .460, sent in the money for the Performance Center 12" Hunter. The employee's discount made it a deal too hard to refuse, I got it for less than dealer's cost. The funds were sent in a anner to arrive in time to qualify for the $99 Sigma, but the package has not arrived yet, I anticipate it's arrival any day.

I have shot the .500 at the range, definately a handful.

But my real question is, has anyone considered what velocities might be obtained by using a sabot down to say, .357 caliber out of the .460? It would seem that such an approach might make it possible to push a .357 projectile out to well over 3,000 fps.

roger460xvr
April 15, 2008, 11:17 PM
Redhawk1 said it all...460xvr is the king of the hand gun revolvers for hunting..Ive got over 800 to 900 hand loads out of mine no problems....powerful just RIGHT.......ROGER460xvr

Eddie L
May 5, 2008, 01:14 AM
Be careful with the top-strap cutting. In the welding inspection field and metalurgical studies, the cutting contributes to what is called the notch-effect.the results are similar to cutting part way across a 2x4 and reducing the strength. Eddie L (new know it all)

Redhawk1
May 5, 2008, 07:40 AM
I have a couple of thousand rounds down my 460 Mag and no top-strap cutting, I also use 300 gr. bullets not going 2300 fps either.

AgentOrange
September 30, 2009, 07:25 PM
(master of old thread revival!)

i have put probably 5500 rounds of 240 and 250gr hornady XTPs i handloaded with 44.5gr o lilgun down the pipe on mine, and have no pitting, no flamecutting,ect. thats not even counting the few thousand 45 colts and 454 cashulls ive shot

i love my 460 ( and my 500) to death. only thing i dont like about them is the intense cleaning you have to give them ater each range session. i tear mine down, take the cylinder and crane o the rame,ect and scrub it down good. looks like new each time too!

tip:

when cleaning the 460 or 500, go to the auto parts house and buy a pack o detailing brushes. they come in a 3 pack with 1 brass, 1 nylon and 1 stainless bristles. the nylon is great or scrubbing in and around the barrel throat, and the stainless is super or removing heat rings and grime without scratching the gun at all.

also i you shoot lead, invest in a box of choreboy copper scrubbers. there creat or removing lead and rings inside cylinders if you shoot the shorter 45 colt and casull rounds.

AGL_Alaska
January 31, 2010, 10:44 PM
Just purchased a Smith XVR - I bought a box of Buffalo Bore ammo with it and so far have only managed to get 5 rounds the heavy BB ammo thru it. After the 2nd shot the cyl bound up and I had to punch the cases out of the cylinder with a wodden dowl. 2nd try I got 3 rounds off before the cylinder bound up.. found out the primers had blown out of 2 of the rounds and one was binding the cylinder. I've posted on an Alaskan Form and quite a few guys have been having trouble with the Buffalo Bore Ammo.. anyone on this form have trouble with this stuff. (I put a dozen rounds of .45 long colt thru it to try to "polish out the cylinder" - didn't seem to help). The guys on the Alaska Form are telling me not to shoot the BB Ammo for fear of the gun blowing up - like LICHEN posted above... I 'hope' that a good revolver should be able to handle ANY Factory load sold for it. I really like the revolver and I like being able to punch a bunch of Long Colt thru it but don't want to adverscly effect the gun by running shorter cartriges thru it... Comments?

Evil One
January 31, 2010, 11:34 PM
Since these are hunting rounds... post energy and velocity at 50-100 yards.
Thats more of a story than at the muzzle... unless you are belly gunning the deer... :D


Jim

smac
February 16, 2010, 11:30 AM
The 460 has a greater case capacity and can produce more foot pounds of energy. Here are some published loads:

460 S&W: 335 grain at 2064 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 3169 foot pounds / Efficacy 513
460 S&W: 300 grain at 2080 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 2882 foot pounds / Efficacy 467
460 S&W: 395 grain at 1796 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 2829 foot pounds / Efficacy 458
460 S&W: 360 grain at 1864 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 2777 foot pounds / Efficacy 450
500 S&W Corbon load: 325 grain at 1800 fps 2338 foot pounds / Efficacy 459
500 S&W: 360 at 1843 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 2715 foot pounds / Efficacy: 440
500 S&W Corbon load: 440 grain at 1625 fps for 2578 foot pounds / Efficacy: 507
500 S&W: 700 grain at 1300 fps out of an 8 3/8ths barrel for 2627 foot pounds / Efficacy 516

Compare loads at: http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460%20SqqqW%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
Muzzle energy / Efficacy calculator http://billstclair.com/energy.html

smac
February 17, 2010, 10:30 AM
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richw
February 17, 2010, 11:42 AM
These cartridges really won't be interesting until someone makes a .460 S&W Maximum or a .500 S&W Maximum...I mean really...

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