What Kind Of Man Buys-


Porter Rockwell
January 2, 2003, 01:04 AM
Some years ago I recall the line in an old Playboy magazine "Who Reads Playboy", hey, it was the one with Elke Somner!
What kind of man will pay five or six thousand dollars ($6000.00 American!) for a "custom" 1911??
Maybe I'm very old fashioned but after some research a good number of quality makers market a top shelf product (Valtro-Kimber-DW-Colt-Springfield) far cheaper.
So, to borrow from the current PC lexicon...Wat's UpWit That?

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January 2, 2003, 01:26 AM
It's also like asking why anybody would spend money to lower a car, put brush guards on a truck, add a trick paint job and hot-rod the engine when the speed limit is only 60mph anyway.

We Americans simply love our toys. :D

January 2, 2003, 01:37 AM
Oviously some deranged individual. If I had $6000US laying around, I'd buy something much more functional, like another machinegun. :D

January 2, 2003, 01:48 AM
Why do some wealthy folks buy a Humvee when they'll never leave the pavement? Why do they drop $1,000,000.00 on a piece of jewelry? CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION :neener:

Porter Rockwell
January 2, 2003, 01:48 AM
I well understand the "hotrod" thing in cars as well as Harleys.
I can see the blower or mags and paint scheme but all 1911s pretty much look alike, stocks, grip safety and sights aside, the basic platform as designed by Mr Browning has been copied by pretty much everyone. Even the Chinese managed an extremely serviceable gun for what, $250.00?
I now that PT Barnum wrote "there's a sucker etc" but $6K for a Custom (what's Custom about a locked breech 1911?) gun that anyone with a mechanical apptitude beyond changing spark plugs can build on their own?
Most of the so called "name" smiths don't even build their own frames and slides so it's simply assemble your hand picked pile of parts and buyer beware!
Thanks for the response!

Porter Rockwell
January 2, 2003, 01:54 AM
Somehow I doubt you'll find another #12 SMG in a pistol caliber for $6K..chuckle!
Personally if I had the $$$$ I'd seek out a Browning BAR but that's just me!

January 2, 2003, 02:48 AM
I now that PT Barnum wrote "there's a sucker etc" but $6K for a Custom (what's Custom about a locked breech 1911?) gun that anyone with a mechanical apptitude beyond changing spark plugs can build on their own?

Well..... that's taking it a bit far, but I get your point. However I honestly doubt Mr. Joe Garage Gunsmith can properly fit a match barrel or lap a tightly fitted slide and frame to silky smoothness. Such endeavors are truly time consuming and require skill to do, which of course equals a high labor charge. But at the same time I wonder just how badly the average person needs to spend so much on just one firearm. Like everybody else has said, $6000 can buy a lot of decent guns or one really nice one. I guess it's up to the individual to decide which will derive more pleasure. As for me, I'd rather have ten $600 1911s or six $1000 1911s than a single $6000 one.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether a single $6000 1911 is better than a $600 one, however. :scrutiny:

January 2, 2003, 03:45 AM
It still doesn't answer the question of whether a single $6000 1911 is better than a $600 one, however.

If it makes the person that spent the $6K happy, it's better and worth it.

January 2, 2003, 05:24 AM
I think even a $1200-$1800 1911 is demonstrably better than a $600 model.

However, when I got my Valtro, Jardine told us that his custom guns go from about $5000-$10,000

He also said that the Valtro was about 99.9% of what those guns are.

However :)

A truly custom 1911 by a master smith is something very few people own. Not only that, if you have it made to your taste, it will be unique in all the world.

Do not make the mistake in thinking that a $6000 gun is 5x more functional than a $1200 gun - thats ridiculous.

What you do get is extremely good fitting and many custom flourishes. You know that every part fits every other part just right.

I like my Valtro, but there are a few things I would change if I was doing it from the ground up. However, it is not worth multiplying the price several times to get these relatively small changes. If I had a million bucks or more, I would think nothing of it.

January 2, 2003, 06:00 AM
Yep, one will put a hole in ya as well as the other!

However, it's all relative to the amount of money you have. Look at Plazma TV's, hi dollar Home Entertainment systems, heck, the house you live in! I am willing to bet, the vast majority of us could get by just fine with a smaller home but, we like more! Is bigger or, smaller and more expensive better? Not always but, in most cases, yes!

Now saying that, I concure on the subject of guns in general. $800.00 - $1,500.00 is going to get you an extremely nice shotgun, rifle or handgun! The ironic thing is, most people that don't know guns say were are crazy for spending this much and we have more money than we know what to do with. So, it really does boil down to the fact we probably are mentally deficient ;) but, we are damn well armed retards. :neener: And, I choose to stay this way!:D


Ps "That gun was how much?" :what: :what: :what: Well sweetie, we really need this one! :cool:

January 2, 2003, 10:58 AM
I guess it's all about perceived value. If the consumer sees the value in a $6000 pistol, and they have the money for one, why not? Still better than a crack habit!
I have a shooting buddy that only has 4 guns in his collection. Each one is a custom, each one is very nice & reliable to shoot and each one cost more than $2500. His race gun cost $6k :what: Now, he does compete and really does appreciate the craftsmanship in his guns.
To each his own :cool:

Sean Smith
January 2, 2003, 11:23 AM
Where does this $6,000 figure come from? I've seen people bring it up before, but I think it is mythical outside the world of full-tilt raceguns with trick optics and so forth.

Most major pistolsmiths charge about $3,000-$4,000 for a full custom, built from scratch gun with all the trimmings you can think of. Figure $500-1,500 for customization packages on factory guns, and of course they'll do less or more depending on what you ask for.

Not cheap, but $2,000-$3,000 less than the (probably made up, silly) $6,000 figure quoted above. And if you talk to the pistolsmiths, they are usually the first to tell you that there is no "need" to spend that kind of money on your gun, just that they are happy to do it if you want it.

Sean Smith
January 2, 2003, 11:35 AM
To follow up:

People have these outrageous ideas about how much custom work on a 1911 costs, as if pistolsmiths do nothing but charge $6,000 to do anything and make you wait 10 years for it.

Sure, there are probably a couple of loons that do that kind of business. But that's not even the norm for the guys with big magazine spreads and long backlogs... let alone everyone else.

Even with the big guys your cost and wait are proportional to how much work you want done on your gun. If you are determined to have something carved by hand out of unobtanium then, yeah, you will spend alot of money and get in the back of the line of all the crazy people like you. For those that only want the same performance as that $6,000 bugbear gun, you probably only have to spend $500 and wait a couple of months... maybe less. Not cheap, but a totally different animal from untold thousands of dollars.

As an aside, all I shoot now is a new, nearly stock Colt. Very nice gun for the money.

January 2, 2003, 12:03 PM
I could see paying allot of cash for a pistol or rifle if it was owned by a famous war vet that killed untold amounts of the enemy saving countless others. Or possibly a general or other high ranking officer.

But for a 1911 with no heritage. No way!

I'd spend that on a rem700 in 300win and a nice leupold scope, bullets, powder, brass and dies and still have money to get a accurate 1911.

And probably make a mortgage payment and buy some groceries as well. :rolleyes:

January 2, 2003, 12:05 PM
If I put a racing stripe on my 1911, will it go faster? Or do I have to get a louder subwoofer as well?

(Well hey, my daughter's boyfriend says it works for Hondas! ;) )


January 2, 2003, 12:26 PM
It could be a matter of income. Being a college student, purchasing a Springfield was my upper limit. But if I made $150K/year, 6K on a pistol is a small portion of my income, therefore I'm more likely to buy it. Granted the 6K pistol may not be better functionally than a 1.5K pistol, but who cares as long as it floats your boat.

January 2, 2003, 12:35 PM
However, if an individual feels that $6000 (or $2000, or $200) is a fair price for what they've purchased, then it IS a fair price!;)

January 2, 2003, 12:36 PM

Probably refers to the LLAMA that was fully engraved, gold plated, with faux pearl stocks. :D

January 2, 2003, 12:42 PM
Im just figuring this out because Im waiting to get some stuff from a client right now. And because its fun

rem 700p 300win 700.00+tax
leuplold scope 1200.00+tax
powder, dies, brass and bullets Ill do... 1000.00+ tax
reagualar good shooting 1911a 900.00 +tax

total for taxable items 3700.00
tax on those items 322.00
mortgage payment 1280.00
car payment 300.00

total 5700.00
- 6000.00


yep looks like I have just around 300 dollars to spend on food and stuff and I even included a car payment as well....nice

Now I can hit a target at untold distances with frightning accuracy and I have a really spiffy pistol and god only knows how many hand loads you can buy for 300win for a "1000" dollars. Not the mention the joy of assembling all that stuff.

Yeah I think I'd spend it this way instead.

(spend the extra 300 on 45acp I should be able to get 1500rds for 300 bucks and still have enough to buy a pack of smokes or a six pack of pepsi)


January 2, 2003, 01:35 PM
$6K 1911?

Is Kidbillions posting on gunbroker again?

Either someone wants a super custom one-of-a-kind piece of superb quality with a cost is no limit budget.


Someone is seriously overcompensating for something.


January 2, 2003, 01:45 PM
Some years ago I recall the line in an old Playboy magazine "Who Reads Playboy", hey, it was the one with Elke Somner! Who is Elke Somner?

January 2, 2003, 01:57 PM
You mean you wasted time reading the article when pix of Elke Sommer were in there?? :scrutiny:

Bob Locke
January 2, 2003, 02:18 PM
What kind of man will pay five or six thousand dollars ($6000.00 American!) for a "custom" 1911??

One who has more money than sense! :D

(Keep yer shirts on; if ya got it and wanna spend it, go right ahead.)

I think I've got about $6,000 TOTAL in my whole collection of 13 guns. Haven't sat down and added it up, really, but this may cause me to do so.

The question really is one of means, though. People spend outrageous sums of money on houses and cars all the time, for no real reason other than THEY CAN. If firearms happen to be your thing, then by all means indulge yourself.

January 2, 2003, 02:24 PM
Depends what you are after...the STI full-pop open-class racegun I have ran me $1,800 in parts alone...dealer cost, not retail. If I were to build one like mine for someone else, I'd charge an easy $3k. And...I'm not one of the ubersmiths :what:


January 2, 2003, 04:55 PM
They're probably referring to a Baer Thunder Ranch - Special Engraved Model which has a retail of $5,999.00.

Other than that, about the highest price 1911 I have seen is the Wilson Super Grade at $3,500.00

Would you really pay $5,999.00 to have Baer's ugly mug specialy engraved on your 1911? LMAO :what:

Marshall :)

Kahr carrier
January 2, 2003, 05:14 PM
Big Boys toys ,If it makes you happy ,what the hell buy it.:neener:

January 3, 2003, 12:17 AM
with my $400, used Spld "loaded", because of the 5000 rds of practice 9mm that I got for the difference in price! :-) Suddeness from the rig (at 5 yds and less) wins nearly every time, all other things being equal. Nothing about the gun matters for that sort of work, beyond the very basic mods. Nothing about pistol combat allows you to tell the difference between a gun that "only" groups 10" at 50 yds, or one that groups 2" at that distance.

Dont kid yourself. When you are being shot at, in poor light, by a moving, cover-using man, with a true carry gun, and no ear protection, you can easily miss the head at 5 ft, the chest at 10 ft, and the entire man at 5 yds, and do so repeatedly, regardless of what pistol and load you have, or who you are. I've seen it happen with world class competitors, in nice light, on stationary targets, with earmuffs and match gear, with noone trying to kill them.

January 3, 2003, 12:59 AM
"What kind of man will pay five or six thousand dollars ($6000.00 American!) for a "custom" 1911??"

All I know is he would have more money to spend than me.:rolleyes:

January 3, 2003, 01:13 AM
$6k for a shooter? Nope.

For a certified historical gun? Maybe if I like the history, e.g., Alvin York's M1911.... :D

Politically Incorrect
January 3, 2003, 01:21 AM
IF (and that's a BIG "if") I would pay $6000 for a 1911, then I sure wouldn't put a $15 box of ammo through it. I would insist on gold plated casings and platinum jacketed exploding hollow points. :neener:

January 3, 2003, 01:22 AM
$6,000 for a 1911? No. For two? Yeah. I'm not gonna bash anyone for spending that kind of money on a pistol, anyone who does is forgetting one thing, they are buying a gun. I've got about $3500 in my the last blaster I purchased, I know it is not for everyone, but I wanted it. I'd equate it to going out and spending 45 or 50 grand on a vehicle, unless your working out of it, you don't need it, but who always buys what they need? If we all bought what we needed, we'd still be living like people in 3rd world countries.

January 3, 2003, 05:23 AM
Ahhh probably for the same reasion that you can buy a Stetson 300X beaver hat for 4000 bucks. It had a price tag that they can wave at the Jones.

January 3, 2003, 10:43 AM
If we all bought what we needed, we'd still be living like people in 3rd world countries.

Exactly. I don't understand how people on this thread act like a guy that can easily purchase a 6K pistol won't have enough left over for ammo or other guns. If one made enough money, one could buy 10 $6K pistols and 20K of practice ammo with no problem. Plus a Windrunner with Raptor NVD and US Optics, plus a AWM .338LM, etc. etc. If you have the cash, basic utility isn't really a consideration. Now if you make say $15K/year and you buy a $6K pistol, you're off your rocker!

Politically Incorrect
January 3, 2003, 11:18 AM
If one made enough money, one could buy 10 $6K pistols and 20K of practice ammo with no problem.

Exactly Mr. Flory!

Which is why would anyone put lowly ammo made of brass and lead through it?

And if you have that much money, why not hire your own armed security guard like Rosie does. :D

And just think with that much cash laying around you could hire someone to load your own magazines and clean the gun after you're done playing!

January 3, 2003, 12:38 PM
If you could see what kinds of people order custom guns from some of the top-notch pistolsmiths you'd see why they don't mind spending $6K on a single firearm. Celebrities, trial lawyers, CEO's, you name it all order high-end custom guns. They probably don't carry or shoot them either. Instead they likely go into the glass case next to the high-priced English double shotguns and specially-accurized bolt guns with exotic wood stocks.

I say to each his own. I just shake my head when somebody thinks you HAVE to have at least a $2000 custom gun to be considered a serious defensive handgunner. I have carried mil-spec 1911s many times and will continue to do so. What's good enough for G.I. Joe is good enough for me, as I really don't need to be just like Mike (Dalton).

January 3, 2003, 09:18 PM
I'll buy the $500 gun and spend the rest on ammo.

January 3, 2003, 09:21 PM
What kind of man will pay five or six thousand dollars ($6000.00 American!) for a "custom" 1911??

The monied kind.

Sean Smith
January 3, 2003, 09:44 PM
Aside from making up a counter-factual number just as a straw man to beat on, this whole topic is still stupid. You want better, you can afford better, you get better. How much better? Depends on what you mean by "better." Why does my buddy drive a turbo Ferrari? Why does a 500 lb gorilla do ANYTHING?


January 3, 2003, 09:45 PM
many years ago. He showed me and my friend a movie of Leonard Knight going thru the Cooper Assault Course. I said:" That man can run like a deer!". Mike laughed, and said:'Leonard's fast, but you're faster". :-)

January 3, 2003, 10:52 PM
There is no gun worth that much!rifle,machine gun,semi etc.Even if I was bill gates I wouldnt spend it!!!:cuss:

Shaughn Leayme
January 3, 2003, 11:09 PM
H&K PSG 1 with all the goodies is some where around 10,000 if I recall correctly.

Barret 50 caliber rifles all run into a lot of dollars.

How much do some people spend on shotguns for trap or skeet?

What do quality double rifles and drillings run? 20 - 30 thousand plus dollars

I think it is all relative, if you have the money and are used to spending large sums on an almost everday basis, then 6000 may not seem out of the ordinary.

January 4, 2003, 03:19 AM
sorry to admit it, but I have paid that much for long guns in the past. :neener:
And to me, it is worth it for the gun I own.
I have not paid that much for a sidearm yet, but would never rule it out.
Very high end anything cost money. Those who have identified the fact are quite right to say it makes the shooter any better.
For me the major pleasure of firearms is the pleasure of collecting. To that end unusual or unique or rare firearms do cost money. A nice handtooled shotgun will take an amazing number of hours to produce, and the engravers time is not free.
For a nice custom 1911 I have paid up to 3.5K, and once again sorry guys, but I like my investment. The gunsmiths time is worth it, and a great many of the upper end in custom gunsmiths are akin to artist to me.
Someone has also pretty sharply identified the fact that if one is lucky enough to have higher income, and is wise enough to not use it all to support the external trappings of wealth, then they just might have more desposible income to in thier budget. It is a realitive to the budget kind of thing. We live in a modest three bedroom house that is paid for, and I drive a decent mazda, not a bmw or mercedes. We don't go wanting for food or electricity.
I am a widower with a seven year old, and she always comes first- her education, extra curicular activities, and her college fund come way way before any toys for dad.
So flame away if you must, but I personally feel pretty comfortable with the choices I make, and just don't feel the need to rationalize them....

January 4, 2003, 04:22 AM
There is no gun worth that much!rifle,machine gun,semi etc
I'd pay $6K for any H&K machine/submachine gun or Sig 550/551 if I had the money...

Have you seen the going rates on these pups??:what:

January 4, 2003, 08:43 AM
And just think with that much cash laying around you could hire someone to load your own magazines and clean the gun after you're done playing!

Now that would rule.

January 4, 2003, 12:18 PM
While I have never spent $6,000 on a handgun, I have spent around $2,000 on custom gunsmithing on a 1911. The thing that always gets me is the price of the gun, in the long run, is a small part of the total cost of ownership, assuming one shoots the thing.

As an example, say a centerfire handgun is shot with 50 rounds once a week. This is not a lot of rounds and many of us shoot far more than this. Assume that these fifty rounds cost only $5.00 (the cheapest number I can see working with handloading for these volumes). In a year of shooting only a few rounds of the cheapest ammo, the cost is $250 (I assumed only fifty weeks of shooting instead of 52). In five years of shooting, the ammo cost is $1,250. If the ammo is cheap factory ammo (assume $10.00 per box of fifty), and 100 rounds a week are used, the yearly ammo cost is $1,000. In five years of shooting, the ammo cost for this scenario is $5,000. The above numbers are not meant to be exact; however, I think they can give an idea about how small the cost of the gun is in total shooting experience.

All of a sudden, the price of the gun becomes only a small part of the total ownership experience, and we have not even begun to discuss things like the costs of safes, cleaning equipment, holsters, belts, extra magazines, targets, insurance, range time, etc. As a result, I really tend to pay more attention to lowering my recurring costs (like ammo, cleaning supplies, targets, etc.) than my one-time outlays like the gun itself.

January 5, 2003, 06:28 AM
I would bet dollors to donuts that the guy that admits to having a 6K 1911 wont shoot it at the range against our cheep 320 buck CZs or 257 buck P-38s too,lol.

Admiral Thrawn
January 5, 2003, 07:06 AM
Well, i'm serious about buying the Springfield Armory 1911-A1 Professional Model, which happens to be US $2400...

However I wouldn't contemplate spending much more than that on a handgun...

Sean Smith
January 5, 2003, 10:36 AM

Get over yourself. Not everyone buys an expensive gun because they are on some kind of ego trip.

January 5, 2003, 03:12 PM
actually I use my 3500.00 1911 as my primary carry gun...
I don't "carry" the overunder shotguns though, they are hard to conceal:D
I do shoot a couple of them at the skeet range though.... :eek:

And I like cleaning my own guns! Besides my own weird sense of pleasure from breaking them down and cleaning them, there are very few folks in the world I would trust to clean a gun for me that I might have my life depend upon someday.... ;)

January 5, 2003, 03:41 PM
Aside from IPSC open guns, experimental, collectable or engraved 1911's where is anyone seeing or reading about $5-6,000 1911's? Or was this a hypothetical question?
Just curious.

Sean Smith
January 5, 2003, 04:18 PM
I think it's hypothetical, or just misinformed. A Richard Heinie full custom is under $4,000 last I checked. Most full-custom, handbuilt from scratch guns by the big names are $3,000-4,000 depending on features and whatnot.

January 5, 2003, 09:00 PM
You need to check the prices of the IPSC open class guns, then check the prices on the mags. I dropped over $500 for 5 mags and I didn't get any +2 or +4 or +whatever basepads. I can put you on a $4500 IPSC Limited pistola right now without mags http://speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=Fear1 . Also give Doug Gilmore a call and get some prices on his handguns.

January 5, 2003, 09:10 PM
Good point- and no- I have not heard or seen of new firearms going to this rate normally. I know Korths can run this much, and this string may be related to a post on Korths that was going last week.
45's though- no.
Most I have seen is recent Mark Morris full house guns on their frame running 4450.00 or so.

January 6, 2003, 09:12 AM
That's good, I thought I was missing something. Regardless, I have no problem with very high priced 1911's. They are fun to read about and see the pictures. Ultimately, these type of gunsmiths and guns raise the "bar" of quality for all of us and 1911's- I think!
Without the "Swensons" of the past, and others of course, the gun manufacturers and consumers would have nothing to "shoot" for, i.e. better fit , beavertails, safeties, etc. The trick for them is to accomplish it with mass production and all that.
The output for these type of gunsmiths is so small, I have read Dick Heine produces no more than 25 full custom guns a year, I doubt all the custom guns would come close to 1% of the total sales of 1911's in one year!
So, I hope there is enough "men(women)", to keep buying these as long as I get to see pictures and the write up!

Take care

January 6, 2003, 09:44 AM
You know, once upon a time, I sneered at folks who were stupid enough to pay more than $300 for a pistol.

Of course, then I started making more money, and began owning Glocks and SIGs and what-have-you, and decided that it was the people who bought $800+ pistols who were talentless poseurs.

Later still, after I had a Beretta Border Marshal and a Springfield V10, both with extensive custom work, plus a P7M8 or two passing through my hands, I realized that it was the guys with the $1000+ pistols that were trying to buy skill.

Now that I have a Les Baer and a Springfield Pro, I would like to thank Porter Rockwell for explaining to me that it's the guys who buy $6,000 pistols that are crazy.

Have I told y'all about pocketknives yet? :D

January 6, 2003, 01:12 PM
I think to sneer at thoes who can buy the high end guns or to look down there noses at thoes who have a $100 gun defetes our purpose! I think a man or women should be allowed to buy whatever they feel comfortable with, as this is FREE enterprise. I like my no friles F 250 pickup my brother in-law likes his fully loaded F250 am I jelous "NO" or does he think I am follish "NO".
My point is I am comfortable with my SA 1911-1A he is comfortable with his Hi-Point 9MM. This is America we are all equal and free to make our choices.

October 15, 2006, 11:41 AM
To Daniel Flory.
Don't forget to buy a BLT and give the cook a BWK (big wet kiss).:barf:

Working Man
October 15, 2006, 12:05 PM
But at some point there is a mark where cost does not equal better performance.
It then comes down to name, limited release, history, or any number of other
factors that have nothing to do with the actual functionality of the item but
everything to do with the perception of the seller and the buyer.

Equivalent exchange means different things to different people.

October 15, 2006, 01:37 PM
What happened to revive this dead thread?

Ala Dan
October 15, 2006, 01:53 PM
Well, I didn't spend $6 grand on a 1911; but I did spend $1500 on a brand
new Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special 1911, + I slept at the Holiday Inn last
night~!:cool: :D

October 15, 2006, 04:51 PM
gc70 said: 3 years, 9 months, 9 days

What happened to revive this dead thread?

I wondered the same thing myself.

October 15, 2006, 07:43 PM
Like the old quote went, "This is just a tool. I am the weapon".

March 1, 2007, 04:56 AM
whoever has the cash...still I dont think id WANT a gun that killled a man.

March 1, 2007, 08:55 AM
Amen DSK!
If I didn't have a couple other expensive hobbies (motorcycles and bass fishing) I'd probably have a very expensive gun too.

March 1, 2007, 10:16 AM
I will spend whatever it takes someday to get MY Dream 1911. It will be something very special and there won't be one like it, I'm already saving up for it.
There are many good guns out there but none of the production guns is build just for YOU. It's like building your dream house or dream car. It might not shoot any better then the $600 Kimber but it will be special.

March 1, 2007, 11:58 AM
What kind of man will pay five or six thousand dollars ($6000.00 American!) for a "custom" 1911??

One with $6000 and who doesn't give a rip about what somebody else thinks about it?...maybe?

March 1, 2007, 04:36 PM
If I hit the $260+mn MegaMillions tomorrow night, I think I'll have to get a matched pair of $6k 1911s. Complete with Crimson Trace grips so I can shoot double-fisted and possibly actually hit something (on my 1500 acres in Colorado/NM/AZ/wherever).

Shaughn Leayme
March 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
260 million? buy your own island declare yourself king and own what ever you want.:D :neener:

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