[Malice]

My dad told me yesterday that he decided to get me "One of those old rifle you like so much." Since I am a poor college kid and all. He means milsurp bolt guns, BTW.

I have:
1 M38
1 M44
1 SKS

Which of the currently available milsurp rifles are the best deal right now? I mean the basic ones, in the $80-$120 range. The ones that come to mind that are cheap to shoot are any of the Yugo 8mm Mausers. I already have, however 2 mosins that are so-so accurate and cheap to shoot. With the buttpad they are pretty fun to plink with around 100 yards.

Then there are the Enfields and K31s. I love the idea of a K31. I hear nothing but how great they are and that sooner or later they will really dry up. Surplus Match Grade ammo for these is cheaper than .303 Britt.

Can I get some input here because this will likely be the last firearm I will get until I get my CCW gun when I am 20.

[ocabj]

It's gotta be the Swede M96 or M38, hands down. The only problem you may have is ammo if you don't reload, which is the K31 will probably be the next best.

[mustanger98]

Well, tell you what I've found. AIM Surplus has some deals right now and so does SOG.

I just got a No.4 Mk2 Enfield "shooter special" and it's in pretty good shape. Mostly finish wear. Needs de-greasing.

AIM has VZ-24's (Czech Mauser) and those are good tough old rifles, built like a tank. 8mm is cheaper to shoot than .303Brit.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Rifles.html

http://www.southernohiogun.com/

http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplusrifles.html

[R.W.Dale]

The best deals out there right now are probably the K31's and unissued yugo M48BO mausers, I haven't aquired a K31 yet but I paid $190 for my M48 offin gunbroker still in cosmoline unissued with accecories.

[ocabj]

It's gotta be the Swede M96 or M38, hands down. The only problem you may have is ammo if you don't reload, which is the K31 will probably be the next best.

I glossed over the $80-$120 price range stipulation. In that case, definitely the K31. For $100 you get an incredibly accurate milsurp bolt action and the ingenuity of Swiss design.

[Cosmoline]

Here's my ranking, given the market right now and availability:

1--K-31 Swiss. VERY cheap for what you get. Phenomenal quality and accuracy. I would grab up one and horde as much GP-11 as possible. Ammo is the big problem now but will likely get better over time.

2--Finnish-rebuilt Mosin-Nagants. These were made in vastly smaller numbers than the 30-some-odd Million Mosins churned out by Imperial Russia the USSR and east block. Even the relatively inexpensive M-39's are orders of magnitude more scarse than the Soviet 91/30's. I would not count on ANY Finnish Mosins being bargains in another ten years. Now is the time to snatch some up. Look for the [SA] label and the two-part birchwood stocks. 54R ammo is in current production and there's still a ton of surplus. High-quality brass is easy to get from Norma or Lapua. The only problem is the limited selection of bullets in the .311 to .312" range, but there are enough to make it work.

3--True Schmidt-Rubin long rifles. These are the 1911's and related LOOONG straight pulls that were imported before the current heap of K-31's. Their quality is even better than the K-31's and accuracy is astonishing. These are quickly going up in price but can still be found for under $250. That won't last long.

4--Persian Mausers. These are probably the best quality Mausers you can get for a reasonable price. They're on par in quality with the legendary Argie '09's but can still be found for half the price. They are often in mint condition.

[thereisnospoon]

I have neve owned a K31, so I can not comment.

The enfield is a different story. Try it, you'll like it.

[jefnvk]

The only problem you may have is ammo if you don't reload

Plenty of commercial 6.5 Swede, but the gun is outside the price range.

The K31 is the most accurate gun in that range. Ammo isn't too bad, if you buy online.

Enfield No. 4 Mk. I/II are pretty accurate guns, and IMHO have the best sights. You aren't losing much to the K31, and commercial .303 is available much more readily than 7.5 Swiss.

The Yugo M48 is the only gun I ever regret selling. One of my best shooters, and cheap to buy and feed.

[Malice]

Thanks guys. This comes at a good time because classic arms just posted that they have the nicest K31's around for $119. Their shipping is cheap too, around $15 for that delivered.

Anyone have complaints about Classic or are they good guys to deal with? Should I just take the road-oft-traveled and get a handpick from AIM?

[Malice]

I also found out that the Wolf 7.5 is as expensive as the surplus stuff :(

[Cacique500]

I dont have a K-31 but as others have said they're supposed to be excellent rifles. I've avoided one because of the ammo costs...

If you can find one, I'd go with a Finn M39 - WGA (www.gunsnammo.com) has some 'shooters' for $139 or so which is damn cheap for an M39...they are a little worn but they're still Finn's. Ammo is dirt cheap...you can get 880 round cases for $65 to $75 + shipping (check Ammunitionstore and Aim). Only about 100,000 or so of these rifles around and there won't be any more coming in. Supposedly there's one large block of approx. 12,000 rifles on hold right now but when they're gone that's it.

Good luck with your search and keep us posted on what you get.

[Malice]

Ack!

This is nerve-wracking. Classic arms says they have the nicest finish and stocks available.

Aim says to expect stock and finish wear, and they do not give a grade. Does this mean they are not in great condition?

For the price of a hand-pick walnut, which was my plan, I can get "the nicest K-31 ever seen (-ClassicArms)."

Please advise!

[longhorngunman]

For your price range I'd go for the K31, I have 3 of em' and my father who also suffers from milsurpitis has six. I've been happy doing business with Classic arms. I think for $10 over regular cost Aim will get you one with a walnut stock, if you want a chance of one with tigerstriping. I've never seen one that didn't have a great bore and mechanically wasn't sound to shoot. All I've seen have matching #'s on the bolt and reciever. You can always redo the stock and reblue the metal on the cheaper one for around $20 worth of stuff(blue wonder works great). Ammo is higher than the ridiculously cheap 8mm but is match quality and Wolf now imports 7.5 swiss that is reloadable. Also Graf's has Hornady Soft point Swiss for $1 a round for hunting.

[Roudy]

I have a Swiss K31 and reload my own ammunition. It uses a .308 bullet and has roughly the same balistics as the NATO .308 round. Excellent accuracy, but you would probably want to reload to keep expenses down. You could probably get a set of Lee dies and a hand press for less than $50.

[Malice]

Err... I decided to order from aim.

The FFL I am planning on says its a wholesaler so he has to place the order. That seems off. I know you guys have ordered from AIM, is this the case?

[idakfan]

Find a different FFL.

Step 1) Get ink signed FFL from local dealer
Step 2) Send FFL and order and payment to AIM
Step 3) Pick up Rifle from your FFL when it gets there

[rust collector]

Aim sells to holders of FFLs. Many of us have Curio and Relic type 3 FFLs, and so pays our money and takes our chances with AIM. Overall, they have provided good rifles, but I have learned not to pay the handpick fee and expect a new rifle. They are all experienced firearms, and you will receive an unissued rifle only if it clearly states that they are unissued (and you pay the premium). Otherwise, expect a shooter and love it for what it is or what you will make of it.

Caution is advised with K31s. I ended up with 6 of them, each a very distinct and interesting rifle in its own right. No perfect specimens, but all are a riot to shoot. Also gotta love the #4 mark 1 and various flavors of mausers. Enjoy!

[ocabj]

Err... I decided to order from aim.

The FFL I am planning on says its a wholesaler so he has to place the order. That seems off. I know you guys have ordered from AIM, is this the case?

Yup, people order directly from AIM, but people who do typically have C&R FFL licenses and have the gun(s) sent directly to their door.

[Malice]

The FFL I am using is not a store. He operates a web-store, http://www.rb-treasures.com

He does not have a storefront and probably doesnt do many transfers, more often hes the one shipping the guns. I found him on Guns America's FFL search and it turns out hes 5 minutes away from my parents house. He does them for $10 which is a deal. He sets up an appointment when the gun gets in.

I emailed him back when he said he would have to order it himself saying that I am quite sure I can make the order and have it shipped to him. He said "Ok, give it a try" and said he just faxed his FFL and gave me his name which the license is in.

I guess I will order it tomorrow.

[ArmedBear]

I just got an M38 for $80 and a Yugo 24/47 Mauser for $100 at a retail store here. The Mauser has the better action; it would be worth buying it for that price to build a hunting rifle around it. The M38 is a great little carbine, rough but durable.

The "best" gun?

Lots of choices...

1903 or 03A3, 1917, M1 Garand, K31, 98 Mauser, SKS, Enfield Mk4 are all available surplus at the moment.

Chinpokomon! Got to buy it! Got to buy it!

[mustanger98]

Err... I decided to order from aim.

The FFL I am planning on says its a wholesaler so he has to place the order. That seems off. I know you guys have ordered from AIM, is this the case?

The FFL holder was telling the truth as far as AIM being a wholesaler. Otherwise, it sounds like he's full of $hit and trying to make you pay whatever exhorbitant mark-up he has in mind. I'm not against guys making a living, but some people...

I ordered direct from AIM... they sent it to my buddy's FFL. My friend gave me a copy of his FFL to send them with the understand that he'll receive anything I order, then I ordered with USPS money order and had it sent to the shop. No problems.

After reading further, $10 ain't bad. Beats $20 the first time I ever ordered like that, but I no longer do business with that shop because of other issues. But my buddy does my FFL transfers for free, (except for the $5 Brady check which had been a non-issue with my CCW). I spend money with him regularly and I guess that makes a difference too. Your FFL dealer may just not deal with transfers like that before now and just be ignorant, but it sure don't smell right.

[444]

Just to give you some background:
I own perhaps 20 or more milsurp bolt rifles.
I have competed for 4-5 years in monthly matches which require the use of a milsurp bolt action rifle. There are two local matches and one match held three times a year in Utah that I try to attend. We shoot from 200 out to 800 yards depending on which of three vintage bolt action rifle matches we are talking about.
I have tried about anything that was ever made from pre-1900 to the 1950s.
I have actually won these matches more than once.
I fired several hundred rounds out of a Yugo Mauser today on a silhouete range from 200 meters out to 500 meters. Yesterday, I fired 50-60 rounds out of a K31. A couple weeks ago, I won a match using a K31.

If I could only own one milsurp rifle using your criteria, it would be a No.4 Enfield. IMO it has the most going for it. Sights, magazine capacity, cartridge. Second choice would be the K31. IMO it doesn't have sufficent drop in the stock which makes it somewhat uncomfortable for me to shoot. The rear sight is located half way down the barrel giving you a shorter sight radius. A peep sight located at the rear of the action is FAR superior. Third would be the M39. Mine changes it's point of impact as it heats up, but the climbing POI is predictable, but still a PITA.
If money was not an issue, hands down, the best milsurp bolt action rifle IMO is the 1903A3. American mil-surp rifles have sights that shoot to where they say they are supposed to shoot. Americans have true adjustable sights: windage and elevation in the rear sight. They can be adjusted on the fly to compensate for current conditions. The sights on American milsurps are FAR superior to any others. The Sweede Mausers are beautiful but IMO the fact that the rear sight elevation starts at 300 meters makes them less useful for most recreational shooting.

[Malice]

Well I ordered a K31 from AIM today. I played for Walnut because I like it better and I payed for handpick. I worked out the stuff with my FFL and when I get it I will update you guys.

I will get an Enfield sooner or later. There seems to be tons of them around and ammo is even more expensive than 7.5mm

K31s, I hear, are running out so I pick that one up.

I am thinking about getting into competition shooting as well and my .22 and coming k31 should help me sharpen up my skills and from what I hear this gun will shoot better than I can.

Updates coming.

[longhorngunman]

Good choice! If you want to use it for competition you'll probably want to get into reloading so you can afford to practice with it. Only problem now is that once you pickup, clean it, and shoot the Swiss miss you'll catch surplusitis, which is a terrible disease with no known cure and will consistently leave your wallet empty, and you will spend less time with family and friends but you will have a smile on your face!:D

[Cosmoline]

There's another important factor--what you personally like and what "fits" you. I cannot tolerate any Enfield for more than a few shots. Although I like the rifles in the abstract, when I actually shoot one every little thing about them annoys me. The rear half of the stock seems way too short, which puts my face too close to the bolt and keeps me from being able to cycle it without dropping it down. My arms feel about six inches too long for the design, and I think they actually are. Plus my fingers instinctively fly way too far forward after locking the bolt--the result of too many years shooting Mosins in rapid fire. I find Mosins and most Mausers just fit me better. I can cycle them without breaking the weld. I also much prefer the balance of the 91/30's and M-91's to the more barrel-heavy Enfields. I like the K-31's, but I don't *love* them. They don't really speak to me.

You should take any opportunity you can to test fire a wide array of vintage rifles and see what you like.

[58dogs]

the k-31 would be my choice, the suplus ammo is very very accurate, and if you want to reload the brass is become more readily available, also P.R.V.I. makes high quality ammo for the 7.5 and it is reloadable, not to mention the rifles are of super qaulity and they were well taken care of or the 3 I bought were well taken care of.:)

[444]

Now that is funny.
I just had one of my good shooting buddies (an Englishman) tell me the same thing in reverse. He bought an M39 and just started shooting it within the last couple weeks. He was telling me how he can't stand having the bolt so far forward. He admitted that he was probably ruined from shooting Enfields for so long.
There definitely is some unknown factor where you either like a rifle or not, where the rifle feels good to you, or not.
One thing to keep in mind, although I don't know how practical this is: the Enfields had different buttstocks to fit different people. I have no idea where you would buy one today, but it is possible.
As I mentioned, I don't feel good shooting the K31s, although I shoot them quite a bit. In prone, I find them very difficult to shoot . I find that I have to hold my head unnaturally high in order to get the butt into the "pocket" of my shoulder: not to mention the fact that the buttplate is very slippery on my shoulder. If I don't watch it, the butt will climb up on my clavicle and hurt like hell when I fire. I actually did that once and my right arm went numb like I hit my funny bone. This isn't a question of recoil or using a recoil pad, it is a question of my being able to put the butt in the correct place on my shoulder with the very small drop in the comb of the stock.
All that being said, it may fit you fine.

[NavajoNPaleFace]

I agree that all of the rifles mentioned thus far are exceptional guns and I own most of them.

I also own Springfiled 1903-A3s and I wouldn't hestitate to put them in the group of superb shooters as well.

[trueblue1776]

No one has mentioned the Spanish Destroyer Carbine? Little tack driver chambered in 9mm Largo. A very exceptional little rifle, overpriced but awesome.

[DMK]

As I mentioned, I don't feel good shooting the K31s, although I shoot them quite a bit. In prone, I find them very difficult to shoot . I find that I have to hold my head unnaturally high in order to get the butt into the "pocket" of my shoulder: not to mention the fact that the buttplate is very slippery on my shoulder. If I don't watch it, the butt will climb up on my clavicle and hurt like hell when I fire. I actually did that once and my right arm went numb like I hit my funny bone. This isn't a question of recoil or using a recoil pad, it is a question of my being able to put the butt in the correct place on my shoulder with the very small drop in the comb of the stock.
All that being said, it may fit you fine. A lot of guys put skateboard tape (Or that non-skid stuff you put on stairs) on the butt plate to keep the butt from sliding around on the shoulder.

[NavajoNPaleFace]

A lot of guys put skateboard tape (Or that non-skid stuff you put on stairs) on the butt plate to keep the butt from sliding around on the shoulder.

I'd think that if you shoot a large amount of rounds with a light shirt, or an unprotected shoulder, it would be brutal.

Sorta like 1000 grit sand paper rubbing ya.:D

[KriegHund]

K31 is a good bet.

Might wanna look into a mauser. 8mm is cheap (900 rounds for 100$).

When you get into old milsurp bolt action they are all basicly the same by desighn, but each on has certain little perks over another. Thus, you shoud get them all :evil:




:)

[Essex County]

I love my Swede, I like my Yugo 48, And I have tons of respect for my Mosins.....But K31's stand head and shoulders above..........Essex

[silverlance]

Re: rb-treasures

I don't like making comments about sellers simply because I think every gun seller should be commended for doing so - but suffice it to say that rb-treasures is currently being investigated by my credit card company for failure-to-deliver / failure-to-respond.

Make of it what you will, I'll leave it at that.

[longhorngunman]

8mm ammo, 900rds for $100.:rolleyes: Who's got the 100% markup? I've found it for $50/900rds, love my C&R license.:p

[Malice]

Silverlance:

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

Damn. I wish I had heard that BEFORE I ordered the rifle with instructions to have it delivered to RB-treasures.

This makes me more than a little nervous.

The upside is that they live down the street from my parents house, and it was my dad who is paying for the rifle. He wouldnt do with any nonesense.

How does that work? Do they not anwser when you call or pretend they dont know what you are talking about? :fire: :banghead:

[cracked butt]

Best rifle for the money- K-31

Best rifle no matter what the cost- Swedish 96.

Honorable mention because of its good sites- 03A3