Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?


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Beethoven
November 19, 2005, 10:30 PM
Invariably when open carry is discussed on forums, there are people talking about how it will make you a target instead of having the desired effect of people leaving you alone.

Has this ever been PROVEN to be true?

Can anyone provide factual evidence for even a single case in which a civilian was actully targeted by thugs because he was openly carrying?


Thanks

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P95Carry
November 19, 2005, 11:01 PM
Ahaha - I see you are on an open carry kick today ;)

I do not personally know of a case where this would apply - and not sure if such would be documented anyways. In principle I think our consideration of ''being a target'' has some logic - way better the surprise factor IMO.

If open carry was implemented a lot more, and without BlissNinnies bleating here and there - it would I think be so ''normal'' that BG's would be not influenced - there'd be too many folks with obvious firearms.

I'll just say, these days with so many gun-shy folks around - discretion is the better part of valor - and, I'll keep the BG's guessing :D

Scottmkiv
November 19, 2005, 11:56 PM
One surefire way to make them less gun-shy is to expose them to firearms all the time without incident. It starts to seem normal after a while.

nfl1990
November 20, 2005, 12:01 AM
One surefire way to make them less gun-shy is to expose them to firearms all the time without incident. It starts to seem normal after a while.

That has worked with other things in the past, ie: cars, planes

Standing Wolf
November 20, 2005, 12:25 AM
Can anyone provide factual evidence for even a single case in which a civilian was actully targeted by thugs because he was openly carrying?

Well, it just stands to reason the streets would soon run with blood.

Seriously: I carry openly about a third of the time. Virtually no one notices. I'm sure most criminals are still less attentive than the law-abiding.

3rdpig
November 20, 2005, 12:35 AM
Invariably when open carry is discussed on forums, there are people talking about how it will make you a target instead of having the desired effect of people leaving you alone.

Has this ever been PROVEN to be true?

Can anyone provide factual evidence for even a single case in which a civilian was actully targeted by thugs because he was openly carrying?


Thanks

The Clantons and McLaurys, Tombstone, 1881.

kngflp
November 20, 2005, 12:47 AM
When I am wearing a shirt and tie with no coat I sorta open carry...I mean its a full size gun in a IWB rig. I get looks, but no one, save one curious guy at Sportsman's Warehouse, has every said anything. I guess in a shirt and tie people probably assume I am a cop, because when I am in shirt and tie I am clean shaved and have no visibal tattoos or piercings. I notice the opposite at the gun shop I frequent, when concealed in my everyday clothes no one wants to help me, when open carrying in shirt and tie everyone seems nice and eager to assist. I wonder if they will ever realize that some people save money to buy guns by not buying cloths more than once a decade and save money for ammo buy not washing those clothes. People are strange.

JohnKSa
November 20, 2005, 12:48 AM
This is a little bit of a stretch, but the Miami shootout perpetrators were known to acquire firearms by frequenting remote shooting locations and taking them from the owners who were generally rendered unable to object. Not exactly open carry, but it's related as it's criminals targeting people known to have guns on or about their persons.

There has been at least one instance discussed on this forum of a robbery in progress that was interrupted briefly to kill a person who's girlfriend/wife effectively turned his concealed carry into open carry by whispering loudly something along the lines of "Doooon't go for your gun!"

There was also a thread posted either here or at TFL about a gun range employee who shot a violent criminal after the criminal took the employees hostage. He succeeded largely because his concealed weapon allowed him to pick the most advantageous moment to resist. I guess you could argue that the criminal might have gone to another range if he had seen an armed employee, but I think it's just as reasonable to argue that he might have instantly killed the armed employee had he known he was armed.

My objection to open carry is that if it doesn't deter the criminals, then you can't pick your time and place to respond. You are forced to either respond immediately or you face being disarmed or killed. I'd rather have the option to decide after assessing the situation rather than be pushed into immediate action.

Devonai
November 20, 2005, 03:29 AM
This may be proof that carrying openly in the wrong area can have negative consequences:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=95445

It's old news by THR standards, but still interesting. I sometimes consider removing my concealing jacket while in this particular Barnes and Noble just to see if history will repeat itself.

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 03:36 AM
I just got my CCPermit and we were told by the instructors, SWAT officers, BCA, and the Gun Shop that the only state that allows you to openly carry a revolver under the conceal carry permit is MINNESOTA. However LEO's CANNOT as their Union does not allow them OFF DUTY to OPENLY CARRY their weapon. It is a liability they don't want for the people they represent...cops.

this and common sense may answer your question.

c_yeager
November 20, 2005, 06:24 AM
Its not directly on point, but every single cop and/or security guard/armored car operator who has ever been shot in that back is pretty good evidence that being an obvious 'good guy' can buy you trouble.

Phantom Warrior
November 20, 2005, 07:01 AM
mindpilot,

I think, well I know, you are mistaken. There are numerous states that allow open carry. I don't have a comprehensive list handy, but you can check out individual states at packing.org (http://www.packing.org/).

Just a bit of termage, to borrow one of my little sister's favorite words. Minnesota's permit is a "Permit to Carry." At least that's what mine says. That's why you are allowed to open carry; there is no concealed requirement.


EDIT:

I spoke too soon. It's amazing what a little work with Yahoo! will do...
http://www.opencarry.org/images/opencarrymap.png

Courtesy of opencarry.org (http://www.opencarry.org/).

Gold means you can open carry w/o a permit, green means you need a permit, and orange means some cities restrict open carry. Red means no open carry.

Tried'nTrue
November 20, 2005, 07:14 AM
New Mexico allows open carry, too. I can think of 2 different instances that I've seen people carry openly and I didn't observe any negative reaction to the carried gun.

Wiley
November 20, 2005, 08:12 AM
mindpilot,

Your Gun Shop, BCA [whoever they are], SWAT officers, and instructors are WRONG. (Suprise, no?)

In Georgia, to carry at all, open or concealed, I must have a Georgia Firearms License, which I do. The only un-licensed carry is on one's property or vehicle.

dasmi
November 20, 2005, 08:55 AM
I've open carried in Arizona twice now, once in Yuma, and once from Yuma to the Grand Canyon (where is disarmed) and back to Yuma. No odd looks, no complaints, no dead children, no blood in the streets, no being targetted by a thug for elimination, one nice "hello, how are you sir?" from a deputy.

Phantom Warrior
November 20, 2005, 09:26 AM
BCA=Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (Minnesota state police)

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 10:07 AM
I used to live in New York, where you wouldn't think you'd see a lot of open carry by anyone but a uniformed cop, but on a number of occasions you would see someone who was dressed normally other than wearing a T-shirt with BRINKS or something like that on it, and they'd be in a deli or pizza place getting lunch while carrying openly with a service style holster and no one looked twice. Obviously the argument that this will invariably cause general panic among the sheeple is false. BRINKS guys are not cops, and apparently no one was calling 911. Why? Because people are accustomed to seeing BRINKS guys carrying openly. Why? Because it is something they see every once in a while. If they saw people not wearing a BRINKS T-shirt carrying enough, they'd stop calling 911 every time they saw that too.

Lone_Gunman
November 20, 2005, 10:15 AM
In Georgia, to carry at all, open or concealed, I must have a Georgia Firearms License, which I do.

Are you sure about that? I have a GA firearms license, and thought you could only carry concealed, and not open, with it.

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 10:19 AM
When I am wearing a shirt and tie with no coat I sorta open carry...I mean its a full size gun in a IWB rig. I get looks, but no one, save one curious guy at Sportsman's Warehouse, has every said anything. I guess in a shirt and tie people probably assume I am a cop, because when I am in shirt and tie I am clean shaved and have no visibal tattoos or piercings. I notice the opposite at the gun shop I frequent, when concealed in my everyday clothes no one wants to help me, when open carrying in shirt and tie everyone seems nice and eager to assist. I wonder if they will ever realize that some people save money to buy guns by not buying cloths more than once a decade and save money for ammo buy not washing those clothes. People are strange.Funny you should mention that. I've noticed that too. And it almost doesn't matter how much money I spend there. Where I used to live, up North, the gun store people almost all knew me well, and that I was a customer to be taken seriously and treated with respect because, partly at least, I bought a lot of guns, etc., over a period of few decades. Then I moved to northern Florida, to a rural community where there is just one gun shop nearby. Not that they aren't nice, but they hardly give me the time of day, even though in the last year and a half I must have spent over two grand there. I don't dress like I have any money to spend, so I guess they are slow to learn, even after repeated exposure to me spending money there.

Could also be that they just don't like Northerners, no matter how much money they spend in their store. Not sure yet which it is.

P.S. Rather than being happy to see me there browsing, I get the distinct impression that if I mosey on to the back of the store where the used guns are, they send someone rushing over to keep an eye on me. They ask me if I need some help in a tone of voice that suggests suspicion rather than a real desire to be helpful, and this is AFTER spending over two grand in the store in the past year and a half. Can't trust a Northerner, I guess. We did do quite a number on them a while back.

lawson
November 20, 2005, 10:33 AM
i live in arizona, where open carry is legal, but in the city i live in, it's not very common. i do it on occasion, mostly when i am on my way out of the city for a hunting or fishing trip. i also carry open when i have to drive to a nasty part of town.

some people don't even notice, some people get very nervous, some people make taunting gestures. it all depends.

one of my neighbors is a police officer, and since the first time he saw me with a gun on my belt, he's always looked at me very suspiciously when i pass him in the hall. other police have mentioned how they like seeing good law-abiding citizens legally owning and carrying guns. it all seems to depend on who you encounter.

that's my experience anyway. there are many other parts of arizona where open carry is much more common, and some areas where it almost seems part of the dress code.

nfl1990
November 20, 2005, 10:33 AM
Could also be that they just don't like Northerners, no matter how much money they spend in their store.

That is probaly it, either that or like you said, they are slow to learn.

quiettype
November 20, 2005, 10:39 AM
It is not a good idea unless you're trying to draw attention to yourself.In the world of human predators you are being sized up continually.When you look like easy prey you will be attacked, gun or not. If you are trying to NOT draw attention to yourself conceal it.

dasmi
November 20, 2005, 10:43 AM
It is not a good idea unless you're trying to draw attention to yourself.In the world of human predators you are being sized up continually.When you look like easy prey you will be attacked, gun or not. If you are trying to NOT draw attention to yourself conceal it.
Yes, that is what everyone always says. But the question this thread is dealing is: "Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?"

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 10:44 AM
mindpilot,

I think, well I know, you are mistaken. There are numerous states that allow open carry. I don't have a comprehensive list handy, but you can check out individual states at packing.org (http://www.packing.org/).

Just a bit of termage, to borrow one of my little sister's favorite words. Minnesota's permit is a "Permit to Carry." At least that's what mine says. That's why you are allowed to open carry; there is no concealed requirement.


EDIT:

I spoke too soon. It's amazing what a little work with Yahoo! will do...
http://www.opencarry.org/images/opencarrymap.png

Courtesy of opencarry.org (http://www.opencarry.org/).

Gold means you can open carry w/o a permit, green means you need a permit, and orange means some cities restrict open carry. Red means no open carry.
I will tend to believe a Law enforcement officer in front of me, and others that KNOW the Statues that have changed over a Yahoo map that has LEGAL DISCLAIMER on BOARD

All advice posted on this board should be considered nothing more than hearsay. Even if a poster identifies themselves as an attorney, law enforcement official or expert in a given field, there is no way to verify that fact. Therefore, any and all advice you glean from this forum should be independently verified

( 2 guys opinions) and no publications supporting their cute little map

dasmi
November 20, 2005, 10:46 AM
Mindpilot,
You are wrong, and so is who ever gave you the information.
www.opencarry.org is where the map comes from.
They list state laws, outlining where open carry is legal.

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 10:52 AM
Like I said, expalin OH I SAW IT ON A WEBSITE to the officer that responds to a call to you walking around with a firearm in the open.

I will CONCEAL and use the rule of thumb NOT to be NOTICED or Start confrontations...if in question.

dasmi
November 20, 2005, 10:56 AM
Conceal all you want.
My point is that states other than MN DO allow open carry, many without any permit whatsoever.
Arizona, for example, where I open carried two weeks ago.

johnmcl
November 20, 2005, 11:03 AM
Hi all,

Not to pile on the wrongness of the advice given to mindpilot, but here in Virginia open carry is just fine and well within a citizen's rights.

I've carry open here about a quarter of the time. The least amount to notice interestingly enough is with a black OWB holster for my Glock 21 when I'm in a dark suit pants, white shirt, and a tie. I think its clearly because I'm indistinguishable from a LEO. Even my wiferoo comments on my Fed look.

So has any open carry experience of mine proven to be bad? No.

John

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 11:26 AM
What would be the legality of, say, wearing a hat and/or T-shirt that said BRINKS on it while open carrying, i.e., just to avoid having people call the cops every time they see you? Can't be illegal to wear a company name on one's clothing, can it? I see people with Jackets that say UPS on them, and I know they don't work for UPS. For that matter, they sell black baseball hats that say POLICE or FBI on them. Is it legal to wear those if you are not what the hat says? Anyone know?

Werewolf
November 20, 2005, 11:34 AM
It is not a good idea unless you're trying to draw attention to yourself.In the world of human predators you are being sized up continually.When you look like easy prey you will be attacked, gun or not. If you are trying to NOT draw attention to yourself conceal it.On the other hand it is kind of hard to imagine someone openly carrying a gun as prey isn't it.

Criminals given a choice will always take the easy way and robbing the guy with the gun when guys without guns are a dime a dozen would seem to be a rather foolish choice.

But then as full as our prisons are I suppose one could argue that criminals as a group aren't all that wise.

Tom Servo
November 20, 2005, 11:36 AM
What would be the legality of, say, wearing a hat and/or T-shirt that said BRINKS on it while open carrying, i.e., just to avoid having people call the cops every time they see you? Can't be illegal to wear a company name on one's clothing, can it?
I doubt it's illegal, but it could be dangerous. I've been personally involved in a situation in which the Brink's guy was shot because the perp thought he was transporting money. The bullet was intended for the back of his head, but he was fortunate that the perp was a bad shot.

Personally, I'm not going to go to the trouble of "impersonating" anything. I've open-carried a few times here in Georgia, and very few people seem to have noticed. I've certainly never had anyone break into hysterics (though I saw it happen to someone else).

I very rarely "dress up" these days, so I'm usually in khakis or jeans, so I don't resemble an LEO much at all. Still, you'd be amazed how oblivious most people are to their surroundings. I doubt one person in ten even notices the gun.

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 11:37 AM
On the other hand it is kind of hard to imagine someone openly carrying a gun as prey isn't it.

Criminals given a choice will always take the easy way and robbing the guy with the gun when guys without guns are a dime a dozen would seem to be a rather foolish choice.I tend to agree. It defies logic to assume that a mugger is looking for folks packing heat to rob. Just the opposite would seem more likely.

HI express
November 20, 2005, 12:42 PM
Beethoven,
Back in the day (early 60's..(1900 not 1800, I had a high school teacher whose specialty in education was American history. I cannot substantiate this but after school talks (he was an excellent teacher) led to discussion about the old West in America. In this period there was widespread open carry, both hand guns and rifles by civilians, right?

His allegation was that bad men, (men who were considered to be dangerous to cross)..I believe that he meant men who were " able to defend themselves when called upon to respond to perceived threats." He said that they were buffalo hunters, mountain men, cattlemen, cowboys, and a small group of folks considered "gunmen." He told me that there more cases of folks killed by knives, specifically bowie knives, then there were by hand guns.

He told me that when there were people who were considered "bad" for the townspeople or the local area, either the local folks got together and had either a "town cleaning by necktie parties." (hanging the really bad guys) or driving them out of the area, or in some cases the local people just used their long guns and "rid their town of pests."

So if the civilian got too rowdy and probably had fairly immediate access to a long gun or handgun, violence often visited them suddenly by members of society. So open carry and particularly bad use of their weapons by people who opened carry (in the old West) did prove to be a bad idea for those folks.

This is the result of one person's studies and without proof that anyone else saw.

:neener:

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 03:03 PM
I just called up my local Congressman and possed the open carry statute to him and he said " YOUR ALL WRONG, no one can carry a gun!! Where did you get a GUN???"

:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:

OhioPaints
November 20, 2005, 03:08 PM
The Ohio State Attorney General's website makes it clear that open carry is still legal in most areas of the state even if you have a CHP. And it makes no difference in Ohio whether you are carrying a revolver or a semi auto.

Ken


I just got my CCPermit and we were told by the instructors, SWAT officers, BCA, and the Gun Shop that the only state that allows you to openly carry a revolver under the conceal carry permit is MINNESOTA. However LEO's CANNOT as their Union does not allow them OFF DUTY to OPENLY CARRY their weapon. It is a liability they don't want for the people they represent...cops.

this and common sense may answer your question.

TOADMAN
November 20, 2005, 03:12 PM
Open carry is not always a bad idea - only sometimes. It is hard to be wrong if you decide conceal carry vice open carry.

jaysouth
November 20, 2005, 03:21 PM
I used to walk a two man beat in a part of the city where the headbangers would try to steal a uniformed cop's weapon. This was in a jurisdiction that did not permit the sale or possession of handguns, making them even more valuable to the streetscum.

I can recall several headbangers that could and would hit you in the back of your heat, steal your gun, wallet, watch AND gold teeth, all in about four seconds, cop or civilian. If you were carrying a gun openly, that made you a more desirable victim.

fisherman66
November 20, 2005, 03:51 PM
I very rarely "dress up" these days, so I'm usually in khakis or jeans, so I don't resemble an LEO much at all. Still, you'd be amazed how oblivious most people are to their surroundings. I doubt one person in ten even notices the gun.


I'd bet more people notice, but are either apathetic or afraid to get caught staring.

Could also be that they just don't like Northerners, no matter how much money they spend in their store.

Hmm, I'd attribute that to small town mentality. I always thought the Northern distain for Southerners was more prevalent than the other way around.

Throw in a "ya'll" and "I reckon" every now and then to throw them off the trail. Also, more soap - less perfume. :neener:

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 05:09 PM
I'd bet more people notice, but are either apathetic or afraid to get caught staring.



Hmm, I'd attribute that to small town mentality. I always thought the Northern distain for Southerners was more prevalent than the other way around.

Throw in a "ya'll" and "I reckon" every now and then to throw them off the trail. Also, more soap - less perfume. :neener:The funny thing is that I have quite a few Southern credentials, but my accent is clearly a New York one. My mom and her entire family are from the South (former Confederate States), where her entire family lives to this day. Any ancestors she had in the Civil War were fighting for the Confederates. My father's ancestors arrived here after the Civil War. So I don't have any damned Yankee blue belly blood in me. :D

Phantom Warrior
November 20, 2005, 05:16 PM
I don't want to drag this thread off topic . Suffice it to say, I feel confident regarding the accuracy of the map I posted and I think a little research on packing.org or reading applicable state statutes will confirm that. I looked up a few states and they were exactly consistent w/ that map.

mmike87
November 20, 2005, 05:22 PM
Yes, that is what everyone always says. But the question this thread is dealing is: "Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?"

+1 on that. Even if some has one or two examples where it has caused a problem, that hardly established open carry as a "bad idea."

I can, however, tell you why open carry is a GOOD IDEA. Virginia. I can ONLY open carry in almost all restaurants. I CAN provide a lot of examples, right from my VCDL newsletter, where the alternative to open carry - being unarmed, as in leaving it in the car - did PROVE to be a bad idea.

So in Virginia the choice is often OPEN CARRY or NO CARRY.

So, no - I don't buy the "open carry is bad" metality. If some people are uncomfortable with open carry, then they can leave theirs in the car. We'll just see who the BG's target when walking in the Outback parking lot.

fisherman66
November 20, 2005, 05:26 PM
Hawkeye,

Glad to see you didn't take my joke personally. I think the south is just more laid back. I'm surprised by your experience and really do think it is just the small mindedness of a small town. Some places are just like that; however most places in the south and in particular small towns people are very friendly, if you'll just dawl out your speech.

BOT: I wish Texas would allow open carry. I'd carry that way.

chas_martel
November 20, 2005, 05:42 PM
I've always thought that those that are adament against open carry
are only that way because they can't open carry for some reason
or other.

Kinda like bad mouthing an expensive care as a waste of money
just because you can't afford one.

And yes, let's lobby the Texas legislature to allow open carry.

NineseveN
November 20, 2005, 06:22 PM
Mindpilot? Um, nevermind.... :rolleyes:


While complete open carry is probably not the best idea in some areas (businesses where you could otherwise conceal as they might toss you out and they have the right to do so), I do often wonder if we make too much of a fuss over how concealed is concealed.

I.e. Shoulder rigs can print a bit depending on your build and attire, but who really notices?

Or how about OWB holsters? They certainly tend to print more, but is it that big of an issue really if you live in a state where Open Carry is legal? I am rather tired of buying my pants a size or 2 too large to fit my piece into the waist band. I am seriously considering an OWB for out and about, and a shoulder rig for other situations while keeping the IWB for more discreet situations if absolutely necessary.

I have Open Carried here in PA, no one really noticed. One guy at a Sheets asked me about shaving my heald (I wear a baldie). He asked me if I was military because most of his buddies in the forces shaved their heads these days, I told him no, I just prefer it to having hair. He then, after 7 minutes of conversation or so, looked down and noticed my gun. He then said, "Ah, cop huh?" and smiled.

I don't know if I would go to great lenghts to Open Carry (i.e. Thigh Hoster Rig), but I am tending not to worry about deep concealment throughout the course of a normal day.

Now that I have gotten off-track, I have found no evidence to support Open Carry being a bad idea. I would like to see some however.

Kamicosmos
November 20, 2005, 06:27 PM
Has this ever been PROVEN to be true?

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing the point, but I have a very good historical example of open carry, combined with local gun control laws, resulted in quite a shootout, and several deaths:

The OK Corral, Tombstone, AZ. 1881

Flyboy
November 20, 2005, 06:56 PM
Mindpilot:
I know the map has at least some validity for Ohio. I have personally spoken to the Attorney General of Ohio, Jim Petro, and he told me that open carry is legal in that state. I don't know if there's statewide preemption on that point (hence it being orange, rather than yellow), but open carry (outside of a vehicle) is legal in Ohio, with or without a permit.

If you'd like confirmation on that, contact the Ohio Attorney General's office. Either way, the police officer to whom you spoke would seem to have been misinformed. And, based on what I've seen in news reports--though I haven't talked to people there--Vermont, Alaska, New Mexico, New Hampshire, Virginia--who required open-carry in establishments serving alcohol--and several others would seem to be counterexamples as well. If you're interested in accurate answers to that question, I suggest you either look through the relevant state codes, or contact the Attorneys General of the various states. Either way, the officer gave you some bad info, probably the same bad info he was given.

Hawkmoon
November 20, 2005, 07:19 PM
I just got my CCPermit and we were told by the instructors, SWAT officers, BCA, and the Gun Shop that the only state that allows you to openly carry a revolver under the conceal carry permit is MINNESOTA.
Since I do not live in Minnesota and my permit allows me to carry both open and concealed, your instructors are obviously incorrect.

I will concede that the state police position is that open carry is "discouraged," and some local police departments probably think it is illegal, but the state statutes and regulations do not differentiate between open and concealed carry. A permit is required to carry a handgun ... there is no discussion of mode of carry.

Hawkmoon
November 20, 2005, 07:34 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing the point, but I have a very good historical example of open carry, combined with local gun control laws, resulted in quite a shootout, and several deaths:

The OK Corral, Tombstone, AZ. 1881
But this thread is (I assume) discussing legal open carry. Tombstone had a local ordinance prohibiting guns in town. So, while it might be argued that "open carry" caused the shootout, that would be a bit of a stretch. In fact, what caused the shootout was the fact that the Clanton gang chose to violate a city ordinance.

We may not agree with their legality or constitutionality, but I think most of us here agree that it is unwise to violate laws and regulations prohibiting carry -- open or concealed.

Boss Spearman
November 20, 2005, 08:48 PM
I don't know, but it sure as heck would be a lot easier to come up with carrying methods if we could carry open without the sheep panicking.

Scottmkiv
November 20, 2005, 08:58 PM
I think you greatly over-estimate how much panic open carry causes among regular people.

I open carry almost everywhere I go in Santa Fe, which is pretty darn leftist, and almost no one cares. I get the occasional, "Wow is that a real gun?" from kids, and a few people have asked why I carry it. I would guess that well over half the people don't notice at all.

Grape Ape
November 20, 2005, 09:00 PM
I suspect that what the assorted experts meant to say was that the permit only allows open carry in MN and that when leaving the state you should cover up or disarm depending which state you are entering.
What they should have said was "We work in and/or for MN and those are the laws with which we are familiar so if you want to carry outside of MN you had better do some research".

mmike87
November 20, 2005, 09:05 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing the point, but I have a very good historical example of open carry, combined with local gun control laws, resulted in quite a shootout, and several deaths:

The OK Corral, Tombstone, AZ. 1881

So would this "shootout" not have happened if all parties had been CCW? I think I'll have to disagree on that one.

Tried'nTrue
November 21, 2005, 03:13 AM
I think you greatly over-estimate how much panic open carry causes among regular people.
+1 to this statement. We in the US live in a culture that's overly fearful of offending people... we've become paranoid to the point that we're afraid of offending people who probably won't even notice, much less be offended by, the behavior in question. IMHO, this mindset pertains to all of life, not just to weapons and the carrying thereof.
While it's true that there are some excessively loud voices that nay-say gun ownership in general, I think that we as gun advocates can tend to transfer our concern about negative publicity onto the general public, regardless of the public's actual mentality. On the plus side, we can use any public interest to the good of society: we can be polite and respectful and, if plausible, give individuals a bit of correct thinking on gun ownership. Yes, we open ourselves up to criticism, too, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

bachman1961
November 21, 2005, 04:54 AM
I think the number of people that openly carry answers your question in a rehtorical sense. I don't know of any stats but here in Colorado where open carry is almost 'advertised', I rarely see or notice open carry. To me that proves a point in the comfort level people have with the option. Naturally, we would be assuming the lack of open carry where it's a feasable option is due to fear of being a target but another factor could be convenience/comfort of carry. Just the fact that I don't see it in wide use leads me to think it is a matter of folks having the ccw permit and realizing an advantage with concealment. To me, the calibre of the weapon is the fact that nobody knows you have it.

**One other side note; Many places here have signage stating open display of Firearms is prohibited. That would force you to convert from open carry to concealment if you have a ccw permit. Without the ccw permit you'd be S O L and have to store your sidearm somewhere. Why invite that ?

JMusic
November 27, 2005, 08:14 PM
OK I just scanned through this but I would discourage open carry here's why. I some situations open carry may discourage a crime but a pro will simply adjust to this. One of the most important weapons in your arsenal is the element of surprise. Don't underestimate this. In other threads I have stated that I would not tell someone I was armed if confronted. IN fact when they see the gun my expectation is to shoot. I decided a long time ago that if I had to draw my weapon I would make a conscious decision "Not to Shoot". I would act confident prior to pulling my weapon. I would exhaust all the other means necessary to ascertain this is a deadly incident. But once I drew the weapon I would have Bad intentions unless something drastic happened from the threat. Surviving a deadly encounter is a matter of milliseconds. Bill Jordan said it best there are no second place winners in a gun fight.
Jim

drinks
November 27, 2005, 11:24 PM
An aside;
The O.K.Corral incident was actually murder under cover of LEO action.
The people shot HAD disarmed themselves in town, only recovering their weapons when leaving town, the reason they were at a corral was to get horses and saddles and leave, actually in compliance with the local ordinances.
Earp was really just a murdering gambler who had his rep built up by a dime novel hack .:rolleyes:

Phaetos
November 27, 2005, 11:40 PM
Mindpilot,
You are wrong, and so is who ever gave you the information.
www.opencarry.org is where the map comes from.
They list state laws, outlining where open carry is legal.

I have to jump in here. Mindpilot is quite wrong. I live in Louisiana. You can OPEN-CARRY without a permit as much as you want to. If someone complains, usually all the cop will do is well, nothing. You must have a Concealed Permit to CONCEAL your weapon on you. This also means you can carry open at any time.

Zedicus
November 28, 2005, 02:32 AM
I wonder if Regularly open carrying while having a CCW and occasionally Carrying Concealed would be considered Baiting?:D

seriously though the reasons I'm for open carry can be found in the definition of the word "Desensitize"...


de新en新i暗ize (d-sns-tz)
v. de新en新i暗ized, de新en新i暗iz搏ng, de新en新i暗iz搪s

1. To render insensitive or less sensitive (as with a nerve or tooth).
2. To make an individual nonreactive or insensitive to an antigen.
3. To make a person emotionally insensitive or unresponsive, as by long exposure or repeated shocks.

if we can Desensitize enough of the general public we can bring more over to our side of the fence out of as little as curiosity, and therefore make our work on the legal battlefield much easier.:cool:

The-Fly
November 28, 2005, 03:00 AM
i personally asked a Greeley, Co police officer what would happen if you open carried in Greeley. He said that if anyone called and complained, you'd be arrested for disorderly conduct. So even if your state says you can open carry, its probably a good idea to see how the local police feel about it as well. I think that sucks, but I'm not the one enforcing the law sadly.

Zedicus
November 28, 2005, 03:13 AM
& I could just imagine how quickly they would change there minds if a good lawyer got ahold of that one!:D

motoman
November 28, 2005, 03:16 AM
i personally asked a Greeley, Co police officer what would happen if you open carried in Greeley. He said that if anyone called and complained, you'd be arrested for disorderly conduct. So even if your state says you can open carry, its probably a good idea to see how the local police feel about it as well. I think that sucks, but I'm not the one enforcing the law sadly.

The day will never come when I check with my local police to see how they "feel" about anything.

Nematocyst
November 28, 2005, 03:30 AM
If open carry was implemented a lot more, and without BlissNinnies bleating here and there - it would I think be so ''normal'' that BG's would be not influenced - there'd be too many folks with obvious firearms. I love the term 'blissninny'. It perfectly describes too many folks in my lovely little town, and even too many in a major city just north of here.

And, yes, I agree with P95Carry: if more OC'd, then it'd become 'normal'.

I plan to do my share, soon as I get that CCW permit.

I'll just say, these days with so many gun-shy folks around - discretion is the better part of valor... :D +1

Nem

Mad Chemist
November 28, 2005, 06:32 AM
Only my closest friends and family know I carry. It's no one else's business. I am not a billboard and I don't advertise.

Another thing, open carry may work great if you don't live in a densely populated area but if you live in a city you are going to run into strange and deranged poeple frequently. I'd rather not give them a reason to focus their attention on me.

Nematocyst
November 28, 2005, 06:37 AM
Another thing, open carry may work great if you don't live in a densely populated area but if you live in a city you are going to run into strange and deranged poeple frequently. I'd rather not give them a reason to focus their attention on me. I recently (=4 months ago) had the opportunity to move to one of Norte Americana's most (r)evolutionary cities, just two hours north of here.

But due to unforseen events, after 2 months of seeking a business space in said city, things just didn't work out, and I'm still living in small city, USA.

Just as well. There are enough 'deranged people' in this little burg to last a lifetime.

<tilt :eek: :uhoh: :scrutiny: >

Easier to ccw here than there.

Nem

NineseveN
November 28, 2005, 10:09 AM
All of this is nice and all, but the thread titles asks for PROOF that open carry is a bad idea, not your feelings, my feelings, or the friggin Greely County Sherriff's feelings on the matter....I'm still looking for some proof, haven't been able to locate any myself.

Nematocyst
November 28, 2005, 03:07 PM
All of this is nice and all, but the thread titles asks for PROOF that open carry is a bad idea, not your feelings, my feelings, or the friggin Greely County Sherriff's feelings on the matter....I'm still looking for some proof, haven't been able to locate any myself. NineseveN, I think your nudging us back towards Beethoven's original post is reasonable, with one caveat.

First, let's review the original post. (Sometimes after reading a few pages, I start to lose sight of the original topic. :uhoh: )

Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?

Invariably when open carry is discussed on forums, there are people talking about how it will make you a target instead of having the desired effect of people leaving you alone.

Has this ever been PROVEN to be true?

Can anyone provide factual evidence for even a single case in which a civilian was actully targeted by thugs because he was openly carrying? While I think I understand Beethoven's motivation for asking that, and think it's an interesting question for discussion, I'll suggest that "proof" in this case may be problematic. I like his use of the word "evidence" better, where evidence is slightly less rigorous than "proof".

Here's why.

The concept of "proof" demands cause and effect logic. When one is working with a simple system, proof isn't so hard to come by. If the cue ball strikes the 8 ball dead on into the corner pocket, one has 'proof' of the cause.

But when trying to sort out the multiplicity of factors involved in a complex social situation, where a person who was openly carrying may have been 'targeted' (i.e., harmed in some way) because s/he was carrying, well that becomes relatively more sticky.

For example, let's say that an OC {= open carry, not obsessive compulsive} person was attacked by someone screaming "I'm going to hurt you because you carry a gun." For grins, let's add that five people near the attackee heard the attacker utter those words, and watched the attack.

Can one necessarily conclude that "proves" that OC "caused" the attack?

What if the attacker was merely deranged, looking for any excuse to attack. Could have been that even if he saw someone eating chocolate ice cream, he would have decided to attack for that reason. (I've been exposed to such unstable folks several times in my life. Schizophrenic "street" individuals come to mind.)

My examples are simplistic, bordering on absurd, and it may seem that I'm picking a semantic point. But my bigger point is this: when dealing with complex social phenomena, "proof" is hard to come by.

In fact, when one looks at this issue scientifically, from the perspective of probability theory (which I have a graduate degree in), 100% "proof" (i.e., probability = 1 or 0) cannot be obtained in most complex situations. One can only speak in terms of probabilities.

I like the idea of "evidence" better, and even more so, I encourage us to look for evidence that OC was A (not necessarily THE) factor involved, and to remember that complex social situations don't always yield to simple analysis.

Having said that, this IS an interesting and relevant discussion. I look forward to reading more. ;)

Nem

NineseveN
November 28, 2005, 03:44 PM
Nema:

All those words, and you said basically, "let's ask for evidence, not 'proof' as evidence is useful and proof is tough to absolutely derrive" and I am okay with that, probably a better pursuit. :)


I still have seen nothing more than assumption and conjecture so far. I agree, it does make sense that OC would, in theory, be problematic given a lot of these scenarios, but how often do they actually occur?

Nematocyst
November 28, 2005, 05:51 PM
Nema:

All those words, and you said basically... I think I'll hire you to write chapter summaries for the book I'm going to write. :D

Nem

Otherguy Overby
November 28, 2005, 06:57 PM
I recently (=4 months ago) had the opportunity to move to one of Norte Americana's most (r)evolutionary cities, just two hours north of here.

But due to unforseen events, after 2 months of seeking a business space in said city, things just didn't work out, and I'm still living in small city, USA.

Just as well. There are enough 'deranged people' in this little burg to last a lifetime.

Nem

If it was Portland where you were considering moving, that means you are in/near Eugene? Lemme tell you there are plenty of moonbats and regressive phyla in Eugene.

Nematocyst
November 28, 2005, 08:34 PM
If it was Portland where you were considering moving, that means you are in/near Eugene? Lemme tell you there are plenty of moonbats and regressive phyla in Eugene. Yep.

But of course, that's one thing that makes it so ... so ... interesting. Never a dull moment. :D

NineseveN
November 28, 2005, 11:35 PM
I think I'll hire you to write chapter summaries for the book I'm going to write.

Nah, you'd just come off as a smart-arse that way, much more genuine when you're verbose. :cool:

Travis McGee
November 28, 2005, 11:49 PM
To each his own, and I applaud those who want to push open carry.

But I'd rather be a "covert operator" and keep the element of surprise. If you are going to go up against armed BGs in killer mode, you will need every advantage you can muster, and surprise is near the top of the list!

MountainPeak
November 30, 2005, 10:51 PM
There is nothing wrong with open carry. I have for years.. What IS wrong, is living in a place that won't allow you to. I guess those evil firearms spook to many of you folks. The fact IS, the reason so many posters don't like open carry is, they can't!!!! They live in a state like Texas, profess their state to be pro-gun, and can't quite seem to reconcile the fact it NEEDS improvement. WANNA BET!!!!!! Lets see, "Right to Bear Arms", as long as you don't show it to anyone that might be offended. Maybe you boys need to go for a new AMENDMENT!:neener:

MountainPeak
November 30, 2005, 11:01 PM
I can hear the "Founding Fathers" now. Hey, let's make sure we have a "Right to Bear Arms". O.K., but only if you get a permit from the government, and hide them when going about your business.:banghead:

mmike87
November 30, 2005, 11:20 PM
The day will never come when I check with my local police to see how they "feel" about anything.

Uh, yeah. No kidding. If they arrest me for simply doing something totally legal in my state, then I guess I'll just retire early with the lawsuit proceeds.

WhoTF does that cop think he is arresting someone for "disorderly conduct" for open carrying when it is legal?

hylander
November 30, 2005, 11:37 PM
I live in Georgia and you can carry openly if you have a concealed permit. How do I know this? When I went down to apply for the permit, I spoke to the sheriff of Gwinnett County, which I live in and he clarified it for me.

So, the map shown is pretty correct.

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