[Woody_in_MN]

I'm looking for a carbine for home defense, and also some plunking. I don't hunt, so I ruled out most powerful rifle calibers, and ruled out a shotgun, because I don't want to leave a gun loaded.

Anyone have experience with both the Kel-Tec sub 2000 carbine in 9mm or 40sw , and the Hi-Point carbine in the same calibers. Which is more dependable? The Kel-Tec folds, but that is not a big selling point for me. The Kel-Tec pistols I've seen look like toys - are the carbines better quality? More substanial?

Obvioulsy the Hi-Point is less expensive. I think I can buy after market mags that would give me 15 rounds on either carbine. (Stock on both is 10 rounds.)

Thanks in advance.

- W

[Preacherman]

I've shot both, and own a Kel-Tec in .40 S&W. Both work well, and are very functional. You can't get hi-caps for the Hi-Point (at least not in 9mm), but you can for the Kel-Tec (mine takes Glock mags). The Hi-Point may look fugly, but is very serviceable, and is also much cheaper - you can buy two of them for the price of one Kel-Tec, if you shop around a bit. Both seem roughly equal in accuracy, although I haven't bench-tested them side-by-side.

[jem375]

You can try mine out at the local gun range, it's been sitting in my safe for over a year.

[esldude]

No experience with the Hi Point, but have a Ruger PC9 and Keltec Sub2000.

The Keltec will perform better than you think from looking at them. Both the PC9 and Sub2K function well. The PC9 seems a good deal more rugged, though I have not had a problem with the Keltec. Indoors, the PC9 is handy being 35 inches long. But the Sub2K is a few inches shorter, and seems almost twice as handy indoors. The Keltec has been a bit more accurate than the PC9. Neither are tack drivers, but both can easily put repeated shots into a pie plate at 100 yards off hand.

Either will do what you need. You might simply feel better about the PC9. Though it costs more. I also have them for the reasons you mention.

[chris in va]

I have the HiPoint 9mm. It's fantastic and my favorite shooter. Slap a red dot on there and the fun factor goes through the roof.

Now I bought one of those 15rd mags from a gunshow once, and it never fed right at all. The factory rep at HiPoint said to contact ProMag and have them send me another one, because apparently they don't work right. The stock 10 rounder is flawless in function. Frankly it's my most dependable firearm I own, save for my NEF Pardner 20ga:rolleyes:

You may want to wait for the 45 cal coming out in January/february timeframe:D

Oh, and is it crude? You bet. No taking it apart, just hose the internals down with CLP and call it good. I guess what suprises me the most is how a company can take some cheap metal and plastic, then make a dead-nuts reliable/ergonomic firearm without costing more than $200. According to the rep I spoke with, during testing with the barrels they ran over 6000 consecutive rounds through the gun without cleaning, and it still fired just fine. He even said a prairie dog was taken with one of their .40's at 230 yards.:eek:

So basically if you don't need it to fold like the KelTec, the HiPoint would work fine.

[browningguy]

I went with a KelTec with the Glock 17 Mag well just for the 31 round mags. Never shot a Hi Point but all the reports indicate they are reliable and accurate enough.

[kngflp]

Just curious, what is thought to be the best round out of a carbine length barrel? 9mm, .40, or .45. I guess keeping home defense in mind.

[22/22mag]

My High Point 9mm rifle shoots+ shoots.My Kel-Tec 9mm would not shoot,traded it.

[trickyasafox]

i would definatly go for the kel-tec just for the availability of mags and such

[esldude]

You really don't gain alot of velocity in 9mm, 40 or 45 in these carbines. Not like lever action 357 or 44 magnums. You gain most in the lighter bullets in each caliber. And that is where you probably least need it. I would say go with the heavier bullets in each caliber. Then again, I say that with the pistols too.

BTW, the suggestion of a red dot is right on. Just right for this type of firearm. Great for use at night, and the speediest on target you can get. Also allows sighting accurately without exactly positioning your eye. I have one on my PC9. That is one minus to the Keltec. Is possible to put a red dot on the Keltec, but not simple.

[dracphelan]

I will say this, Hi-Point customer service is great. I bought a Hi-Point carbine off of GunBroker for $60. The front sight was broken and it would not fire. Hi-Point completely rebuilt the carbine for no charge. When it came back, it even had new furniture.

[Dave Markowitz]

Another option would be a used Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm or .45. The Camp 9 uses S&W 59xx magazines, while the .45 uses M1911 mags, both types of mags are plentiful and cheap. My Camp .45 has been very accurate and reliable. On the .45 I do recommend replacing the stock recoil spring with a Wolf 21# spring (about $10), because the factory spring is too light at only 11#.

[Woody_in_MN]

Lever action is not an option for the same reason as shot gun - I don't want to leave a loaded gun in my house - even with a safety on. If I did I would get a used 12 gauge pump, cut the barrel down to shortest legal limit, and call it a day.

That's interesting about the 230 yd hit. Kel Tec says at 150 yds - game over.

Also interesting about the 45 coming out. I went to my 2005 GUN DIGEST and compared 9mm + load, against 40SW. Not THAT much difference in balastics - except the 40 sw is typicially a larger/heavier bullet. 45 is not cheap to shoot, but is often thought of to be the ideal defense load. 9mm is dirt cheap to shoot - then with availability of hollow-point + loads makes 9mm hard to resist.

As a side note - my Dad who passed away last week, and shot many guns up until the last couple couple weeks of his life, beamed about how much fun this funny looking poly 9mm pistol was to shoot. He told me how he sent the gun to the factory, and the basicially they remanufactured it for free. Well the pistol was the Hi-Point C9. I shot it yesterday. Its not my favorite pistol, but it is fairly accurate, and atleast as good looking as a glock. I mean what's not to like.

- w

[Woody_in_MN]

Is this the clip that does not feed well?

http://www.webspawner.com/users/cheaphicapmags/hicapriflemagsf.html

(Look toward bottom of page.)

- w

[Felonious Monk]

Preacherman-- you CAN get 15rd. mags for the Hi-Point carbines.
Here is a link: http://ammoclip.com/Numbers/995__carbine.htm

Woody-- if you don't like Kel-Tec handguns because of the Tupperware feel, you may not like the Sub either.

The KelTec comes configured to accept either Glock, SW, and Beretta hi-cap (up to 32rds) mags. Kind of nice, IMO.

[Tropical Z]

Even though I am a Hi-Point fan,when I wanted a 9x19 carbine I got a Kel-Tec.Both are good guns.

[strange246]

I have thousands of rounds through my Hi-Point carbine, I have a small 4x scope on it and I'm dying to get one in .45!

[MachIVshooter]

The beauty of the Kel-Tec is that you can buy one to accept Beretta mags, S&W mags, Glock mags, etc., depending on which-if any-of those handguns you may have. This makes for excellent compatibility. I do not have the KT or the Hi-point; my 9mm carbine is a Beretta Storm (which I love). 30+ round mags are available for Beretta and Glock, and I think S&W as well. pitol caliber autoloading carbines are kinda boring with less than 15 rounds. I don't have much fun with my Marlin camp 45 unless I use the 15 round mag.

[Lobotomy Boy]

I've not heard a bad thing about either gun, though I went with the PC9 myself just because I like Rugers. I have a Bushnell red dot sight, and it would be the first gun I grabbed if I ever found myself in an urban combat situation. It really does the business on squirrels, too.

I am curious about something you said:

Lever action is not an option for the same reason as shot gun - I don't want to leave a loaded gun in my house - even with a safety on. If I did I would get a used 12 gauge pump, cut the barrel down to shortest legal limit, and call it a day.


What does not wanting to leave a loaded gun in your house have to do with anything? If you're not going to leave a loaded gun around the house, I can't see that it matters much what type of gun you're not going to leave loaded around the house. If you are worried about loading the gun in an emergency situation, you are not gaining much by having a 9mm with a magazine over having a shotgun. I can load and chamber a round in my Mossberg 500 as quickly as I can insert a magazine and rack a round in any of my autoloading handguns, and I can load a magazine and chamber a round in my Tikka T3 even faster, though a 30.06 wouldn't be my first choice for home defense.

[HighVelocity]

I had a Sub2k in 40 and it was fine. I sold it though and bought a Beretta Storm instead. MUCH better weapon imho.

[halvey]

I went to my 2005 GUN DIGEST and compared 9mm + load, against 40SW. Not THAT much difference in balastics - except the 40 sw is typicially a larger/heavier bullet. THE difference is in the weight. :rolleyes:

[Woody_in_MN]

Lobotomy -
...I can load and chamber a round in my Mossberg 500 as quickly as I can insert a magazine...

I can load a mag holding 10 to 15 rounds in less that a second - I could load maybe one (ONE) round in a sutgun or lever action.

- w

[Woody_in_MN]

Halvey -

THE difference is in the weight.

You can get a 9mm hp at 127 grams - the difference I see from that to largest 40sw load is 20%. Even though I think this is true - I have not one, but two 40sw pistols on order - one Hi-Point, one CZ 40P.

- w

[MachIVshooter]

Halvey -



You can get a 9mm hp at 127 grams - - w

I hope not. That's over 1/4 pound.

[halvey]

Halvey -



You can get a 9mm hp at 127 grams - the difference I see from that to largest 40sw load is 20%. Huh? You can get 180 gr loads for the .40. Check out the CCI Blazer. That's over 40% heavier than the 127. Go shoot at some thick treated lumber and look at the results. Shoot at some poppers or some pins and tell me which falls with authority. The 9mm is good, but to say its similiar to .40 is just wrong.

If you are just target shooting and refuse to reload it's besides the point.

[Woody_in_MN]

OK - my bullet numbers were off - I was doing this from memory. So correction - 147 for 9mm, vs 180 for 40sw = 22 % difference.

=========================================================
Anyway,

I took the plung. I stewed, and stewed on this. When someone said the Kel Tec carbine build quality was like their pistols, I dropped the Kel Tec from my list. Last minute I did consider a Ruger PC9 - but availibility was a problem.

I found a 9mm Hi-Point w/ Chrome (I REALLY wanted the chrome.) The dealer wanted $180 - I talked him down to $165 plus $16 shipping. I did want a carbine, not a rifle. And 9mm is better than 40sw for my needs. So I went ahead. I should get the HP in a couple weeks.
=========================================================

Does anyone have the 15 round clip that feeds right in the Hi-Point?

- w

[halvey]

15 round clip 15 round magazine.

Not to razz you or anything, but you took the HP over the Kel Tec because of quality??

I thought you just sold some CZ's because you didn't like them - why are you ordering another?

[BryanP]

You may want to wait for the 45 cal coming out in January/february timeframe:D


They said that last year, too. I'll believe it when it's on the shelves.

[Domino]

I took the plung. I stewed, and stewed on this. When someone said the Kel Tec carbine build quality was like their pistols, I dropped the Kel Tec from my list. Last minute I did consider a Ruger PC9 - but availibility was a problem.


I must admit I found this a bit humorous, to take a Hi-point over a Kel-Tec because of quality is pretty funny. I own a Kel-Tec and a friend of mine owns a HI-point, both are really good shooters but the Kel-Tec is more comfortable, has better portability, and more firepower. That bieng said you should be very pleased with your Hi-point as long as you are not expecting a fine piece of handcrafted workmanship. They are rugged, reliable, and will get the job done.

[Woody_in_MN]

Halvey -
I thought you just sold some CZ's because you didn't like them - why are you ordering another?

I don't think I said I did not like CZ's. I am selling a RAMI because I had originally intended that as my CCW, but I lucked into a S&W 469. That is a better size CCW for my build. Every CZ I've shot has been very accurate. And pretty dependable.

Domino,

I must admit I found this a bit humorous, to take a Hi-point over a Kel-Tec because of quality is pretty funny.

I'm not trying to come off like I know everything, 'cause I don't. But Kel-Tec pistols feel like toys to me. Hi-Point products do not; ditto Rugers. I know there are people out there that like them, but I know one forum member that regretes taking a Kel Tec p11 in to his CCW class. It was jamming so much the instructor suggested he get somehting else.

If the 15 round clips work - I don't see how the kel tec will have more fire-power - unless the Kel Tec takes a thirty round. I mean if the 15 works, I can have 45 rounds close at hand - one 15 in the gun, and 2 of the 15 round mags in the magazine pouch they make for the Hi Point.

I'd still like to know if those 15 rounders work.

- w

[student]

Actually the Kel-tec will take 20 and 30 rnd mags.

[Woody_in_MN]

Student - I think it depends on which "grip" configuration - right?

- w

[esldude]

Well, no the Keltec will take any pistol rounds for which it is made. Like the Glock 33 round mag. Fits right in, and works fine in the Sub2K.

[Woody_in_MN]

Well - yeah that's what I meant - the Glock configuration takes glock mags, the S&W configuration takes S&W mags, etc. (I think).

- w

[30-40Krag dude]

i love shooting my hi-point, my only real complaint is the plastic gets slipery when my hands get sweaty. added some grip tape and all is well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/hatebreed76/80f4f31c.jpg

[BreakerDave]

I like the idea behind the Kel-Tec Sub 2K, but it did seem a little crude when I shot it.

If you want a pistol caliber carbine, you should also consider the Beretta CX4 Storm. It is available in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP. -I have shot one of those in 9mm at a local range and it was very pleasant. One of its interesting features is that the controls can be reversed for lefties. While I'm not a big fan of pistol caliber carbines for self defense, it's a solid little plinker in 9mm.

Good luck with your selection.

[Woody_in_MN]

Thanks guys,

I did see a couple Berreta Storms. Really that seems to be the only new carbine that places like Gander Mountain, Cabella's seem to stock. I guess I could warm up to it. Not for the price anyway. I'm anxious to see the Hi-Point in the flesh.

God help me - Now I'm thinking about an AK47 - STOP THE MADNESS !!! - Ha!

- W

[TimH]

There was a rumor that Browning Hi Power mags fit the Hi-Points. I don't know if its true maybe someone can verify this.

[BryanP]

There was a rumor that Browning Hi Power mags fit the Hi-Points. I don't know if its true maybe someone can verify this.

Since the Hi Point is a single-stack and the Hi Power is a double-stack, I don't see how that's possible.

[Crosshair]

Does anyone know where I can buy factory 995 magazines for a decent price. (No not the Hi-Point website.) Also, where can I get a scope mount for a Hi-Point 995 carbine. I own 3 of those POS 15 rounds mags. None of them work. Don't waste your money on the hi-cap magazines, get the factory mags.

[Woody_in_MN]

Crosshair -

Natchez has the Hi-Point factory for like $16 per clip. Also - I will take one of those POS 15 rounders off your hands. Maybe I can tweak them and get them to work. I'll send you a PM.

- w

[30-40Krag dude]

i found my extra mags at a gun show for around $10. and you could try calling hi-point, maybe they will send you a new scope mount.

[Crosshair]

I'll have to look at my Natchez catalog for those magazines. Stay away from the Pro-Mag brand for the Hi-Point.

[VaughnT]

I have a Marlin Camp carbine in .45acp and wouldn't recommend anyone buying one for home defense. It's a cute little carbine, and perfectly workable, but you can only get 10+1 capacity and the manual of arms is difficult to work because of the suck-butt controls. Having said that, don't think I'm not considering shelling out the bucks for a Choate folding stock; there will be a democrat in office before too long.

The cheaper the carbine, the greater the chance you run of having problems. Of the two you are looking at, I would go with the KelTec in 9mm and run with it. I've even heard that the Sig or Beretta Sub2K will work with CZ mags.

The KT has a lot of aftermarket accessories available, including better sights. And, it's foldable. That makes it good for backpacking, road trips, whatever.

Get a 9mm version that takes glock mags and you have 30+ rounds of capacity. That's more than enough for any home-defense situation.

[Woody_in_MN]

Crosshair - Natchez sells both the ProMag, and the factory Hi-Point Mags.

VaughnT - I went for the Hi-Point. Order placed. Should see first week in December. I'll let everyone know how I like it.

- w

[Otherguy Overby]

Lever action is not an option for the same reason as shot gun - I don't want to leave a loaded gun in my house - even with a safety on. If I did I would get a used 12 gauge pump, cut the barrel down to shortest legal limit, and call it a day.

- w

Since shotguns are such great home defense weapons and you don't want a tube magazine weapon, have you considered a Saiga?

http://www.saiga-12.com/

Box magazine fed, gas operated autoloading shotgun, wot's not to like?

[Major Beer]

i never have seen that kel-Tec before - neat gun. i have shot the HiPoints - not bad - they are what they are. my 9mm Hi-Point pistol has fired everytime and i have put 2000-2500 rounds through it.

what ever you purchase, i would be interested in a range report.

[Woody_in_MN]

Otherguy - Pretty cool.

Major Beer - Do you have the Poly C9? I get occaisional mis-feeds on my C9 the couple times I have shot it. I'm trying to tweak the magazine top to totally eliminate. I'll probably know for sure the next couple outings with it. What ammo do you shoot in the Hi Point?

- W

[asnider123]

I know I am about 3 years late, but I am now (as of last Sunday) the proud owner of BOTH the HP 995 and the Sub 2000.

I must agree with some who said the HP feels better (I have the ATI stock on the HP), but both seem to be good, solid weapons to me. The Sub 2000 is a lot easier to strip, it makes a bigger boom than the HP (the KT is in .40sw, so that's understandable) and the shoulder really could use a good rubber pad, but all in all I like the KT better. Both, though, are really fun pistol cal carbines.

Buy them both.

Alan in Oklahoma:what:

[JShirley]

I had the Sub-9, which preceded the 2000. The 2000s aren't as nice, but seem to do the job for little cost.

I did want to address this: I ruled out most powerful rifle calibers

If you're buying a carbine for home/SD, this makes no sense. Lightweight, lightly built bullets at high velocity have less penetration in tissue than pistol rounds. IOW, you're less likely to overpenetrate a bad guy with something like a 50 grain .223 Federal HP than a 155 grain .40 Gold Dot.

And the .223 is considerably more powerful. This is true of even more powerful calibers, as well. There are .308 cartridges, for instance, that would also exhibit minimal penetration, and there are varmint cartridges easily found in calibers such as .243 or .22-250. A single round of one of these would be significantly more effective than any two rounds of practically any pistol caliber, even from a carbine.

Just sayin'.

John

[Malodorousroadkill]

There are some real advantages for using pistol caliber carbines over rifles, and some real advantages to using rifles too. No such thing as a weapon that is best for everything. Otherwise we wouldn't have pistols anymore. The rifle does have the real edge in power, but its also going have a bit more recoil, noise, and is much more expensive to practice with. I just looked up on j & g sales, mil contract .223, 100rds for $39 and change, while at the local wally world 100rds of .45 ACP fmj is $30, .40 is $25, and 9 is only $16. Also, most of these pistol caliber carbines are going to be very light on the recoil, always good if you got smaller folks around to use them. Not that .223 has much recoil anyway.

[foghornl]

I have shot Hi-Point carbines in both 9MM & .40 cals, Like them both, but I want one of the .45ACP carbines....if they ever come out. I had one of the Marlin Camp Carbines in .45 many years back, and sold it in a HUGE moment of foolishness....Something to do with that penchant for store-bought food

[asnider123]

I have had my 9mm HP carbine for about 1.5 yrs, always liked it except for the fact that it had a top seam that always pulled out whiskers from my cheek when I used it (painful). Now that I installed the ATI CX-4 clone stock, I am in love again!! Best $50 I have spent in a long time.

[Girodin]

Lever action is not an option for the same reason as shot gun - I don't want to leave a loaded gun in my house - even with a safety on. If I did I would get a used 12 gauge pump, cut the barrel down to shortest legal limit, and call it a day.



If you would really rahter have a 12 guage you could look into a saiga 12 shotgun. They have a box magazine and thus your reason for not wanting a shotgun would be solved.

The major draw back to the Saiga is that they are hard to find. Availability is expected to pick up starting in the summer months but right now it is not easily found.

As for the cabines listed. THe hi point is supposed to be very relaible if you can stand to look at it. I would have to put the ati stock on to be able to stand it.

One thing I like about the Kel tec and the reason I will likely get one eventually is that it can take Glock mags including the 33 rounders. The fact it folds is a selling point for me as well.

One thing I like more about the hi point is that one can easily put a red dot on it. I also like that one could easily attach a rail for a light. I believe a light to be essential for a home defense fire arm. The price of the hi point is very attractive as well. Even with a new stock, a couple spare mags, a red dot and a light you have a very affordable fire arm.