Corrosive Ammo In The Heat of Battle?


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The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 09:35 AM
My experience with corrosive ammo in my Garand is that if you don't wash it out with water right away, the rusting begins almost immediately. Certainly you cannot let it go more than 24 hours without flushing the salt out. My question, therefore, is what did soldiers do when they were involved in prolonged encounters? Some encounters can last for days, without any let up. In that situation, you just can't stop what you're doing and clean your weapon. Didn't a lot of bores get ruined right away, as soon as the soldier had to shoot his weapon in a combat zone where he couldn't stop and clean it afterwards?

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Onmilo
November 20, 2005, 09:48 AM
Yours is an interesting and valid question and I will try to answer as best as I can.
GIs cleaned their weapons whenever the possibility arose.
Even during prolonged encounters there are lulls where weapon maintenance could be performed.

However rusting from corrosive desposits was always a problem and this was never corrected effectively until noncorrosive primer ammunition became general issue.

Many, many, if not most, of the weapons used during the wars were rebarrelled after fighting had ceased because the ravages of combat combined with corrosive priming had ruined the bores and even internal action parts of the weapons.

On a side note, .30 caliber Carbine ammunition was always noncorrosive primed from the onset of issue.
While these little rifles did also suffer from neglect during combat operations the bores of the weapons remained in overall excellent condition.

These war time revelations prompted the Military to convert all combat application ammunition to noncorrosive priming and except for some special Match shooting ammunition in .30/06 and .300 Holland and Holland calibers this was done rapidly after the end of the Korean Conflict.

hillbilly
November 20, 2005, 10:07 AM
Not only were the weapons cleaned at every possible lull the soldiers got, there was always a steady stream of replacement parts coming in to replace parts that had gotten too rusty to use.

hillbilly

jefnvk
November 20, 2005, 02:02 PM
A boresnake (or whatever they were called back then) with a water patch or two then a dry patch didn't take much time.

Jim Watson
November 20, 2005, 02:52 PM
Which is why the gas cylinder and piston of the Garand are stainless steel. You can shoot the rust out of the barrel if a Nip is charging you but the gas handling is harder to get at.

Kurush
November 20, 2005, 03:06 PM
The chemical reaction behind corrosion goes a lot slower in low temperatures, so it wasn't such a big concern to the Soviets. It's a mystery to me how the Yugoslavs, Turks etc thought they could get away with it though.

dennis40x
November 20, 2005, 04:35 PM
Going thru ITR at Camp Geiger in 1964 we were issued M1 rifles for training. At that point the Marine Corps seemed to have an unlimited supply of ammunition for the M1 rifles.

When given the opportunity I would go thru a course of fire multiple times. We were told that the ammunition was corrosive and instructed on the procedures to clean the rifles.

My own solution was to field strip the rifle, remove the hand guards and take it in to the shower each night. While showering I would run a hot soapy patch thru the bore, then let the rifle dry, oil lightly, and apply luberplate where required.

We were a generation of Marines that gained experience with the M1, M14, and M16.

My preference was the M14.

Jim K
November 20, 2005, 07:46 PM
The buttplate issue cleaning equipment in WWII was a pull-through. They worked OK when new, but PLEASE do not use one today as the old cord will surely break and leave the end stuck in the barrel.

Still, GI's used the pull-through as little as possible. In every squad or platoon someone had a barracks rod (the M10 jointed rod is post-war issue) and that was passed around as needed. Both oil and bore solvent were issued in small cans that fit in a pocket, or the pocket of the ammo belt. True, that meant one less pack of butts, but what the heck, you have to make some sacrifices. Since it was nice of Uncle to issue ammo in those nice bandoliers, no one used the ammo belt for ammo.

Jim

MNgoldenbear
November 20, 2005, 10:57 PM
Which is why the gas cylinder and piston of the Garand are stainless steel. You can shoot the rust out of the barrel if a Nip is charging you but the gas handling is harder to get at.
Just a note. I'm sure you simply meant "enemy". Some of the men you chose to refer to with the term "Nip" fought and died for the U.S. I'm sure they appreciated the utility of a stainless gas system just as much when faced with a charging (insert slur of choice).

rayra
November 20, 2005, 11:05 PM
Just a note. I'm sure you simply meant "enemy". Some of the men you chose to refer to with the term "Nip" fought and died for the U.S. I'm sure they appreciated the utility of a stainless gas system just as much when faced with a charging (insert slur of choice).'charging... PC-policeman' ?

The Real Hawkeye
November 20, 2005, 11:31 PM
Just a note. I'm sure you simply meant "enemy". Some of the men you chose to refer to with the term "Nip" fought and died for the U.S. I'm sure they appreciated the utility of a stainless gas system just as much when faced with a charging (insert slur of choice)."Nipponese - a native or inhabitant of Japan." Nip is short for Nipponese. Not a slur. It's like calling an Englishman an Anglo or a Yugoslavian a Yugo.

Moparmike
November 21, 2005, 02:06 AM
Well, if you had to today and didnt carry around a cleaning kit, another solution is to keep some windex handy. Or a canteen, but that wouldn't do a proper job.



On the PC-police issue, that reminds me when a girl in highschool tried to convince me that calling someone from Mexico a Mexican was a racial slur. I was informed that they were Hispanic or Hispanic-American. Even though she was one of our valedictorians, I knew that trying to explain that it wasnt derogatory (and what do we call the Mexicans that were there before the Spanish came? Native Americans? Doesn't that apply to 2 continent's worth of people then?) was pointless.

cxm
November 21, 2005, 10:42 AM
We were less politically correct (and smarter I think) in those days... enemy was the enemy... and you were not expected to say nice things about them...or point out they really meant well... etc.

FYI, the Japanese Americans fought in Europe... against the "Krauts", "Square Heads" etc. and that is what they called them (worked with a guy of Japanese descent) who fought in Italy who confirmed that fact.

Further, I note the fact the term "Jap" and "Nip" didn't seem to present a problem... as he considers himself to be an American... never having become hyphenated as so many are today.

My friend never thought of himself as anything but American... and he would be offended to be considered as anything else...

The terms we used to describe the Germans (or Italians) were used universally, including by those who came from German lineage... everyone understood it was the enemy being described...

Now we worry about hurting the enemies feelings... :barf:

FWIW

Chuck


Just a note. I'm sure you simply meant "enemy". Some of the men you chose to refer to with the term "Nip" fought and died for the U.S. I'm sure they appreciated the utility of a stainless gas system just as much when faced with a charging (insert slur of choice).

MNgoldenbear
November 21, 2005, 08:38 PM
FYI, the Japanese Americans fought in Europe... against the "Krauts", "Square Heads" etc. and that is what they called them (worked with a guy of Japanese descent) who fought in Italy who confirmed that fact.
Actually, I liked the translation from the Chinese of the term for Caucasian one of my friends told me about -- "white devil". :) Oh, and don't start in on the "Krauts" -- my wife is one. :)

Further, I note the fact the term "Jap" and "Nip" didn't seem to present a problem... as he considers himself to be an American... never having become hyphenated as so many are today.
It depends on the delivery. I don't think anyone I know of considers it a slur, coming from a friend. From others, given with negative tone (not saying the instance on this thread was -- it was obvious what situation he was talking about), it would probably be taken differently. Sort of like African-Americans (or Blacks -- "Negroes" is out of style) calling each other n*gg*r. One of my friends (not Black) used the term during a basketball game with some close friends, just being "one of the guys". One friend pulled him aside and quietly explained, "You don't say 'n*gg*r'; you say 'nigga', and YOU don't say it." :)

My friend never thought of himself as anything but American... and he would be offended to be considered as anything else...
And that is why so many fought in WWII -- showing that they and their families considered themselves Americans (as they were).

The terms we used to describe the Germans (or Italians) were used universally, including by those who came from German lineage... everyone understood it was the enemy being described...
Correct. That was when they were the ENEMY.

Sorry. Didn't mean to ruffle so many sensitive people. :D (Hey, looks a little Asian, doesn't it? :) ) I'm really not all that PC, just wanted to point out that we're done with WWII. Hope I didn't generate any ill will in 'Tejas'. It's always been my understanding that there are old-timers there who have supported the Japanese-Americans, partly in recognition of the incident with the trapped battalion ("Lost Battalion") of the 36th Division.

MNgoldenbear
November 21, 2005, 08:56 PM
"Nipponese - a native or inhabitant of Japan." Nip is short for Nipponese. Not a slur. It's like calling an Englishman an Anglo or a Yugoslavian a Yugo.
Actually, isn't a 'Yugo' a cruddy little car that came from Yugoslavia when there still WAS a Yugoslavia? :) ("Get your programs here! Can't tell the names/borders of the modern countries without a program!" :) I have a hard time keeping up with new names & boundaries.)

That IS where the terms come from, but many less creative slurs do, like 'spic' from Hispanic or Spanish.

MNgoldenbear
November 21, 2005, 09:09 PM
Sorry! Didn't mean to sidetrack the original thread, which is very interesting. Thank you for posing the question!

p35
November 21, 2005, 09:12 PM
FWIW, my Japanese-American father in law served in the Pacific as a translator for the Military Intelligence Service- it was the second most common job for JAs after the 442d RCT in Europe.

He still has some resentment about being called "dirty jap" and harassed and threatened after he got back, even though he was in his full US Army uniform.

mack7.62
November 21, 2005, 11:12 PM
Little can of bore cleaner made to fit in one of the pockets of the Springfield/Garand ammo belt. Excellant for killing the corrisive salts but you want to talk about smelly, I can think of nothing on the market today that compares. I often wondered if any GI's cleaning their rifles at night ever gave their position away using that stuff.

Mack

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