Shooting at Tacoma, WA Mall: Ongoing


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Unisaw
November 20, 2005, 05:05 PM
Northwest Cable News is covering a shooting that has occurred at the Tacoma Mall. The situation is still ongoing, with reports of a shooter with a rifle firing 15-18 shots. Also, police are moving people back due to a suspicious package. What caught my attention was an eyewitness who reported seeing 3 different "undercover officers" inside the mall with weapons drawn as the shooting developed. I wonder if one or more of those "undercover officers" were really CCW holders.

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Unisaw
November 20, 2005, 05:07 PM
From Fox News:
TACOMA, Wash. — At least five people were hurt after shots were fired inside a shopping mall Sunday, and the mall was locked down as authorities searched for the shooter, authorities said.

It wasn't immediately clear how serious the injuries were.

Tacoma Fire Department official John Landoski said authorities got a call about 12:15 p.m. that shots had been fired inside the mall. Five people were taken to hospitals with injuries, he said.

The mall was locked down with shoppers and store clerks still inside, and the shooter was also still believed to be inside, Landoski said.

Ukraine Train
November 20, 2005, 05:17 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051120/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting
TACOMA, Wash. - At least six people were hurt after shots were fired inside a Tacoma shopping mall Sunday, and the mall was locked down as police searched for a shooter, authorities said.
ADVERTISEMENT

It wasn't immediately clear how serious the injuries were.

A clerk said she heard three gunshots, and a shopper said he saw a man running through the mall with a gun and firing.

"An individual had just come running through a cross section and I heard some fire so I just told everybody to drop," Dick Waldo told KING-TV. "And then the individual started running toward the other end of the mall."

The mall was locked down, and the shooter was also still believed to be inside, Tacoma Fire Department Dept. Chief John Landosky told CNN.

Six people were taken to hospitals with minor injuries, Landosky said. He couldn't confirm whether any of them were shot.

Authorities got a call about 12:15 p.m. that shots had been fired inside the mall, and State Patrol and police units from nearby agencies were clustered around an entrance at the south end of Tacoma Mall.

Betz Dejarnatt, who works at a J.C. Penney store inside, said she heard at three shots.

"I thought, that sounds like a gun," Dejarnatt told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. She said some workers were herded into dressing rooms and offices, then police took them outside to a parking lot.

Bobarino
November 20, 2005, 05:45 PM
my girlfriend is a manager at Macy's at the Tacoma Mall. thankfully, she has today off. the phone's been ringing all day long with people asking if she's ok. i'm SO happy to say yes. makes me nervous as hell that she has to go to work there everyday. and of course, Macy's and the Mall, managed by Simon Properties has a no weapons policy.

currently, the gunman is believed to be holed up in the Sam Goody music store. unconfirmed reports of hostages and a "suspicious package" inside the mall. swat team and snipers are ont eh scene and phone contact has been made with the gunman in the Sam Goody.

will update when if i learn more.

Bobby

HighVelocity
November 20, 2005, 05:55 PM
At least six people have been hurt, one critically, in a shooting at a shopping mall near downtown Tacoma, Washington, a fire official said.

"At this time, the situation is still evolving," said Jon Lendosky, deputy chief of the Tacoma Fire Department. "We're still right in the middle of it."

Lendosky said five people had been sent to hospitals. But another fire official, Lt. David Elmer, said earlier that eight people had been reported hurt.

The shootings began at about 12:15 p.m. (3:15 p.m. ET), Lendosky said.

"There are still people in the mall, and we're on the scene with about 40 firefighters and about 15 units right now," he said.

Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General Hospital, said one patient was received in critical condition.

Two others with non-life-threatening injuries were sent to an affiliated facility, Allenmore Hospital, Kelley said.

No one was entering or leaving the mall, which contains dozens of stores, Lendosky said.

A woman who answered the phone at one store said her manager told her police had ordered a lockdown at the shopping center, and a police dispatcher said the situation was "still in progress."

"We've got police on every corner here," said Joanne Woods, an employee at Krispy Kreme, across the street from the mall.

"It's sad that people have gotten hurt, but it's a nice neighborhood," she said.

Tacoma Mall is about four miles south of downtown Tacoma. Among its 140 merchants are Nordstrom, Macy's, JCPenney, Sears and Mervyn's.



http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/mall.shooting/

Mannlicher
November 20, 2005, 06:28 PM
Note the use of the term "herded" . Thats what we do with sheep.........

Alex45ACP
November 20, 2005, 06:42 PM
If I got a dollar every time the lady on CNN said "the suspect is armed with an assault rifle", I'd be a very rich man. :rolleyes:

Langenator
November 20, 2005, 06:44 PM
Gunman is now apparently holed up in the Sam Goody (record store) with an indeterminate number of hostages.

According to a TPD spokesman, the media are actually obstructing things by calling the store, preventing the TPD negotiators from getting through.

Idiots.

Bobarino
November 20, 2005, 06:57 PM
suspect in custody, three hostages released, no further injuries. weapon was an AK variant. :banghead: one hostage reported it as an "AK-5". :rolleyes:

Bobby

Tim Burke
November 20, 2005, 07:15 PM
So not only are the police not obligated to protect you, they will lock you in the mall with the crazed shooter.
Hmmm. If I'm going to be locked in a building with a crazed shooter, what would I want with me?

bogie
November 20, 2005, 07:19 PM
Anyone have an idea of who the nutcase is?

Guessing it may not be an islamic nutjob, cuz he gave up...

If half a dozen islamic nutjobs took a shopping mall, things would be beaucoup ugly, what with the "lockdown" and all... You mean that's supposed to protect you, by not letting you out? Seemed like it was more supposed to keep the bad guy there until the police finished tagging...

bogie
November 20, 2005, 07:20 PM
Let's see... Me with a CCW vs. spray & pray nutjob... Give me a 1911. Dead nutjob.

Bobarino
November 20, 2005, 08:01 PM
just saw an interview on NWCN. apparently there was a CCW'er on the scene at the time of the shooting. when he heard the shots, he had his wife, daughter and a store employee hit the floor, drew his weapon and backed his family out of the store with a bead on the shooter but didn't engage, apparently because of other people still around the shooter at the time. shooter was a young male. thats all they have at the moment.

Bobby

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 08:23 PM
Here goes the Press calling on interviews with any Liberal Legislator they can get to call on Gun bans again...I hope he is Islamic....otherwise makes us all look bad.

ugh.....

Old Dog
November 20, 2005, 08:41 PM
Shooter was a young white male (looked as though late teens or early twenties), short hair, clean cut (almost looked military) wearing a white shirt and dark tie ...

mindpilot
November 20, 2005, 08:50 PM
sheeesh

MillCreek
November 20, 2005, 09:22 PM
Ditto to Old Dog's description, from what I saw on a video feed of him being led to a patrol car. He is Caucasian, about twenty years old or so, wearing a long-sleeve dress shirt, slacks and a dark tie. He apparently started shooting at a cell phone kiosk in the mall, after being asked if he wanted a free cell phone. I wonder if he is a disgruntled Verizon customer, worked at the cell phone store or just picked that area at random. Witnesses on the scene describe the firearm as an AK-47.

bogie
November 20, 2005, 09:27 PM
I'm almost scared ask, but how'd he conceal the AK?

And this is the very first instance I've heard of a Mormon going berserk...

George S.
November 20, 2005, 09:39 PM
According to a KOMO-TV report, the weapon is now being described as a Bofors AK-5 rifle. Apparently one of the hostages in the music store knew what kind of rifle it was.

CentralTexas
November 20, 2005, 09:43 PM
Bofors are a rare beast, I find it hard to beleive someone would recognize one in this situation. I'd have said it was an AK variant with a Tapco stock before I'd realize it was a Bofors unless I was looking at it from two feet away.
:scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:
CT

Hypnogator
November 20, 2005, 09:45 PM
And this is the very first instance I've heard of a Mormon going berserk...

Try googling the "Mountain Meadows Massacre." :evil:

Anyway, glad it ended quietly, and hope the wounded recover swiftly and fully.

MillCreek
November 20, 2005, 10:01 PM
A witness stated that the rifle was concealed under a coat. The shooter took off the coat right before firing. The witness did not specify if the rifle was slung or being carried. And that would be something if it was an AK-5, which I have never seen in real life. If it turns out to be this, I wonder how a Swedish full auto longarm made it all the way to Tacoma. Is there even a civilian version of the AK-5?

HonorsDaddy
November 20, 2005, 10:04 PM
A witness stated that the rifle was concealed under a coat. The shooter took off the coat right before firing. The witness did not specify if the rifle was slung or being carried. And that would be something if it was an AK-5, which I have never seen in real life. If it turns out to be this, I wonder how a Swedish full auto longarm made it all the way to Tacoma. Is there even a civilian version of the AK-5?
Ok - I am not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but:

White guy, well dressed using not just a full-auto piece, but one which is rare in the US, and just somehow there was someone on-site to identify it and no one was killed?

Is there a gun bill coming up for a vote soon? That reeks of setup.

M-Rex
November 20, 2005, 10:12 PM
Ok - I am not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but:

White guy, well dressed using not just a full-auto piece, but one which is rare in the US, and just somehow there was someone on-site to identify it and no one was killed?

Is there a gun bill coming up for a vote soon? That reeks of setup.

You know? I hate to say it. I tend to be a firm skeptic of conspiracy theories, but that is exactly the first thing I thought of.

HonorsDaddy
November 20, 2005, 10:14 PM
You know? I hate to say it. I tend to be a firm skeptic of conspiracy theories, but that is exactly the first thing I thought of.
Whew - glad to know i'm not the only one...

CAPTAIN MIKE
November 20, 2005, 10:15 PM
Sad that anyone at all was hurt. I guess criminals just don't abide by the No-Guns signs on the mall doors anymore. Don't they know the mall is supposed to be a Gun-Free Zone??

HonorsDaddy
November 20, 2005, 10:20 PM
Sad that anyone at all was hurt. I guess criminals just don't abide by the No-Guns signs on the mall doors anymore. Don't they know the mall is supposed to be a Gun-Free Zone??
Mike - looks like you had the selector on "Burst"...

TallPine
November 20, 2005, 10:29 PM
Sad that anyone at all was hurt. I guess criminals just don't abide by the No-Guns signs on the mall doors anymore. Don't they know the mall is supposed to be a Gun-Free Zone??
You can say that again! ;)

Old Dog
November 20, 2005, 10:31 PM
Don't they know the mall is supposed to be a Gun-Free Zone??Not up here in The Free State of Washington. We may bear arms while shopping ... and in Tacoma, it's recommended ...

Kurush
November 20, 2005, 10:32 PM
Very strange indeed, especially given that it's almost indistinguishable from the FN FNC.

adaman04
November 20, 2005, 10:39 PM
"ASSAULT RIFLE, ASSAULT RIFLE, ASSAULT RIFLE!"

Too bad about 50% of America has no idea about what they are talking about, but they know that term quite well. It's a terrible thing, but when SWAT puts a couple through that SOB, the world will be a better place, but no one will forget THE ASSAULT RIFLE! :banghead: God be with the victims' families.

MillCreek
November 20, 2005, 11:04 PM
The local media is now reporting that the shooter is a 20 year old Tacoma resident with an extensive juvenile record. Police are currently searching his home just a few blocks from the mall.

deanf
November 20, 2005, 11:22 PM
Not up here in The Free State of Washington. We may bear arms while shopping

Actually, we may not, at least not in that mall. It's posted right on all the entry doors.

Of course that doesn't stop the bad guys, or the good guys, from carrying there.

deanf
November 20, 2005, 11:25 PM
So it's supposed to have been one of these?

carp killer
November 20, 2005, 11:30 PM
The local media is now reporting that the shooter is a 20 year old Tacoma resident with an extensive juvenile record. Police are currently searching his home just a few blocks from the mall.


That is a lie. Criminals are forbidden to possess firearms!:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Bobarino
November 20, 2005, 11:59 PM
Dean,

in WA, the signs are virtaully meaningless. in order to be in violation of the law, someone one in possesion of a weapon must be asked to leave, and refuse. then its a criminal trespass charge, but no weapons charges. the signs are Simon Properties policy, not the law. CCW'er have nothing to fear unless they are outed and asked to leave. concealed means concealed, until its time.

Bobby

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 12:08 AM
I still find it hard to belive that your garden variety nutjob has access to an AK-5. Did someone fart? I smell poo.

HonorsDaddy
November 21, 2005, 12:15 AM
I still find it hard to belive that your garden variety nutjob has access to an AK-5. Did someone fart? I smell poo.
That makes at least three of us here...

Bobarino
November 21, 2005, 12:16 AM
apparently it was a AK-47 variant. we can't all be weapons experts.

Bobby

psyopspec
November 21, 2005, 12:51 AM
From CNN

Mall shooting suspect surrenders
6 people hurt, others held hostage for 3 hours in Tacoma

Monday, November 21, 2005; Posted: 12:06 a.m. EST (05:06 GMT)

Tacoma, Washington
(CNN) -- A man accused of shooting six people at a Tacoma, Washington, shopping mall surrendered to police after a three-hour hostage standoff Sunday afternoon, authorities said.

One of the wounded was in critical condition Sunday evening, a hospital spokesman said.

The man barricaded himself in a music store at Tacoma Mall, taking three employees hostage, after opening fire with a semi-automatic rifle about 12:15 p.m. (3:15 p.m. ET), Tacoma Police spokesman Mark Fulghum said.

A SWAT team arrested the suspect after a period of negotiations, Fulghum said.

"The suspect is in custody; all three hostages are out of the business, and they're fine," Fulghum said.

He had few details about the arrest, but said, "There were no shots fired or anything like that."

He said the shooter, who was armed with a semi-automatic rifle, "was just in the mall and he opened fire," apparently at random.

"He was in the mall, walking along, firing," he said.

Jon Lendosky, Tacoma's deputy fire chief, said five of the six people wounded had minor injuries.

Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General Hospital, said one person was received in critical condition.

Tacoma Mall is about four miles south of downtown Tacoma. Among its 140 merchants are Nordstrom, Macy's, JCPenney, Sears and Mervyn's.

Joanne Woods, an employee at a nearby Krispy Kreme donut shop, said police were "on every corner" during the standoff.

"It's sad that people have gotten hurt, but it's a nice neighborhood," she said.

Bobarino
November 21, 2005, 01:26 AM
nice neighborhood? are you kidding? its an S-hole. obviously a person that hasn't been around the area very much. that area is low income, high crime and an area to avoid if at all possible.

Bobby

grimjaw
November 21, 2005, 01:43 AM
I've only been to Tacoma once, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but it looked very overpopulated and run down. Several people on the side of the road bumming for change. I must have missed the neighborhood they were talking about.

jmm

tomkatz
November 21, 2005, 03:10 AM
Bobarino is right, the neighborhood is a S-hole for sure.....right down the road is the east side gang territory, a couple miles more and you're on hilltop.....
This isn't the first incident there, a couple years ago there was a wannabee gang gunfight right in front of the same mall around Christmas time.....
Channel 4 did just report on the 11:00 news that the gun is an AK-5, but I still don't know if I am buying that.....
The legal gun carrying citizen who apparently helped some folks escape early on is not even being mentioned of course:banghead:
......tom

MillCreek
November 21, 2005, 09:21 AM
Tacoma Mall is not in one of the nicer areas of the city. In a previous job, I used to have to go to the hospitals in Tacoma to give lectures. Two of the major hospitals (Tacoma General/Mary Bridge and St. Joseph's) are in a very rough area of town, and most of my lectures started at 0700. Driving through the Hilltop at 0600 was always an experience. Many's the time I wished for my very own AK-5 myself......;)

Tokugawa
November 21, 2005, 10:16 AM
I think tacoma has calmed down a lot compared to 25 years ago. I used to drive thru the Hilltop then every day and it was rough.
Yea ha! I feel lucky today. We went to tacoma yesterday for a little shopping and visiting the museum, bookstore etc. I wanted to go to the mall to buy some jeans at sears or penneys, my wife says lets go to the museum first. Then we go to the bookstore and hear all hell breaking loose at the mall, on the radio. My mall visit would havr put us in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Unisaw
November 21, 2005, 12:29 PM
From John Farnam's website:

20Nov05

Active Shooter in Tacoma, WA Mall, from a friend at the scene:

"Today's shooting involved a twenty-year-old, Hispanic male, high on crystal meth. It was an attempted suicide-by-cop. However, during the ent ire incident, no police bullets were ever fired at the suspect. The suspect wa s armed with a CZ 9mm pistol, loaded with Remington Golden Saber ammunition. He also had a Kalashnikov clone (7.62X39, hardball ammunition) secreted in a guitar case.

He started by firing his pistol randomly down a mall corridor. He was jumped from behind by an unarmed mall patron who attempted to disarm him. In the ensuing struggle, the patron was hit four times in the torso before the suspect's badly-rusted and poorly maintained CZ experienced a stoppa ge which precluded additional shooting by the suspect. The heroic patron was the on ly person seriously injured during the incident. All other injuries were mino r, mostly caused by ricochets and people being trampled during the panicked ex it of mall shoppers.

With his pistol non-operational an apparently not knowing how to fix it, th e suspect abandoned it and reverted to his AK, again firing randomly. Our ' Active-Shooter' training really paid off! First officers to arrive did not hesitate. They organized into the diamond formation and entered the mall building straightaway, moving toward the sound of gunfire. Some officers w ere armed with Ruger Mini-14s. Upon seeing advancing officers, then suspect ran into

a mall store and took three hostages. Officers were successful in containi ng the suspect and clearing the rest of the mall.

Negotiations began. At one point, the suspect fell asleep! He eventually gave up and released all hostages. He is currently in custody, uninjured. No shots were fired by police."

Comment: As my friend indicated, "Active Shooter" training i s critical for all departments, big and small. It surely worked here. The suspect was rapidly contained, and damage was minimized. SWAT teams were eventually involved, but the guys who heroically organized themselves and entered the building first were plain-vanilla patrolmen. They deserve a lot of credit. Good sh ow, guys!

/John

MillCreek
November 21, 2005, 12:36 PM
Hmm, the account from John Farnam's website does not correlate in all respects with what is currently in the print and television media. It will be interesting to see if further information develops that would support or refute this account.

c_yeager
November 21, 2005, 02:08 PM
I still find it hard to belive that your garden variety nutjob has access to an AK-5. Did someone fart? I smell poo.

To you and me a Bofors AK-5 is a nifty and hard to find weapon that is worthy of prominent display in any collection. To some scumbag on the street its just one more stolen/smuggled machingun being sold out of the back of a van. Sad as it is to say its probably worth less than an Ak-47 on the street cuz it looks a little funny.

nice neighborhood? are you kidding? its an S-hole. obviously a person that hasn't been around the area very much. that area is low income, high crime and an area to avoid if at all possible.


+1 on an accurate description of the place where this happened.

Let me add though that the TPD is a really solid department, due largely to the fact that they all see a *lot* of action on a fairly routine basis. Ive met a handfull of their officers and been impressed by all of them.

Cosmoline
November 21, 2005, 02:17 PM
I have to say I've often wanted to attack the cell phone kiosk--but not because I was given a free cell phone! It's usually because I've been standing in line for an hour while the ditsy woman chats up with her friends ahead of me. Even then shooting it isn't my fantasy--I dream of tipping it over and pushing it into a nearby waterway where the evil thing short-circuits and shuts down the entire evil cell phone system.

hso
November 21, 2005, 02:28 PM
Were the wounded injured due to the panic or did this guy bounce rounds off the floor and hit people in the legs (everyone except the guy that tried to disarm the shooter, that is)?

280PLUS
November 21, 2005, 02:37 PM
Macy's and the Mall, managed by Simon Properties has a no weapons policy. Well THAT policy works... :rolleyes:

scubie02
November 21, 2005, 03:01 PM
hmm, when I heard this reported they said the shooter was a 20 yr old who had just returned from Iraq.

Spot77
November 21, 2005, 03:10 PM
Joanne Woods, an employee at a nearby Krispy Kreme donut shop, said police were "on every corner" during the standoff.



I can't belive we've gone almost 15 posts from this quote and nobody has made a good joke yet. :neener:

scubie02
November 21, 2005, 03:18 PM
sounds like the earlier report was more accurate

"The Seattle Times also reported that Maldonado has a juvenile criminal history dating to 1998, including convictions on charges of burglary, theft and trafficking in stolen property, and court records show a judge had ordered him not to possess weapons. The newspaper also said court files show Maldonado had struggled with drugs for years."

mbs357
November 21, 2005, 03:25 PM
court records show a judge had ordered him not to possess weapons.
That worked too.

deanf
November 22, 2005, 01:32 AM
the signs are Simon Properties policy, not the law.

Yes. I'm well aware of that.

Are you sure the law backs up your theory that you're only tresspassing if asked to leave and you don't?

If I owned the mall, I'd see it like this: That sign that says "no weapons" is the equivalent of "no tresspassing" for those that are armed. So once you enter the property armed, you are tresspassing, whether asked to leave or not.

motoman
November 22, 2005, 01:54 AM
Yes. I'm well aware of that.

Are you sure the law backs up your theory that you're only tresspassing if asked to leave and you don't?

If I owned the mall, I'd see it like this: That sign that says "no weapons" is the equivalent of "no tresspassing" for those that are armed. So once you enter the property armed, you are tresspassing, whether asked to leave or not.

Dean,

Most states require the owner/agent to ask you to leave, and then for you to refuse before it can be considered trespassing. This is a good thing. Otherwise a mall or other buisness could post little signs saying all kinds of crazy things i.e. no guns, phones, blue shirts, sun glasses.....

Langenator
November 22, 2005, 01:59 AM
Old Dog:
Shooter was a young white male (looked as though late teens or early twenties), short hair, clean cut (almost looked military)

OD, I've seen the guy's mugshot...if you think he looked 'almost military,' you must have been in the Air Force. :neener:

Does that qualify as a joke?:evil:

Old Dog
November 22, 2005, 02:47 AM
If I owned the mall, I'd see it like this: That sign that says "no weapons" is the equivalent of "no tresspassing" for those that are armed. So once you enter the property armed, you are tresspassing, whether asked to leave or not.This sign thing is kinda strange to me, since I've been in that mall a couple times (I live thirty minutes north) and never noticed them ... I absolutely can't believe that any WA CPL-holders who do see this signs don't pack in that mall as a result. It's still Tacoma, after all. It would have to be the only posted mall in W WA.

And Langenator chips in withOD, I've seen the guy's mugshot...if you think he looked 'almost military,' you must have been in the Air Force. Uh, dude, not all of us sport those weird lookin' mohawks you hooah types favor ... And please, as far as the AF (not that there's anything wrong with that) ... I'm workin' on 26 years AD USN.

nomadboi
November 22, 2005, 12:36 PM
Looking at the article in today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer (was once intelligent, but isn't anymore?), I lost count of how many times they stated that he was using a semi automatic 'machine' pistol. Um... wouldn't a machine pistol be a full auto? Why call something a machine pistol?

Oh yeah- because they're quoting the prosecuting attourney, whose job it is to make this guy (and his guns) look bad.

The 'assault rifle' and 'clips' things I'm just used to these days, but the machine pistol one is still freshly annoying.

c_yeager
November 22, 2005, 03:00 PM
Are you sure the law backs up your theory that you're only tresspassing if asked to leave and you don't?


Having had the dubious pleasure of enforcing such an assinine policy I can tell you that this is indeed how it works. In the state of Washington a "no firearms" sign has as much legal weight as a "no blue jeans" or "no shirt no shoes no service" sign. It is an expression of the land owners wishes, but the land owner gives up the right to restrict *entrance* to their property when they open it to the public. Under that circumstance one has to be asked to leave (and refuse) in order for them to be tresspassing.

grimjaw
November 22, 2005, 03:26 PM
Front page of the Tri-City Herald this morning, the 'voice of
mid-Columbia.'

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:55

SHOOTING FLAGS MALL'S VULNERABILITY oh boy, here we go

Published Monday, November 21st, 2005

By RACHEL LA CORTE, Associated Press Writer

TACOMA, Wash. (AP) - In an instant, the controlled chaos of holiday
shopping turned bloody when a man strolled into a busy shopping mall and
opened fire on shoppers with an assault rifle.

Sunday's shooting rampage at the Tacoma Mall, coming just days before
the start of the holiday crush, highlighted the vulnerability of
America's shopping centers.

At malls across the country, thousands of people come and go, often
carrying bulky packages. No metal detectors check them for
weapons. And there is always the possibility that somewhere in the
crowd is a disgruntled employee, a jilted lover or a mental patient on
the edge. You know, I've been a jilted lover, but I don't think it
ever made me want to shoot anybody. As a matter of fact, I would think
that the mall is full of jilted lovers.

"If someone is determined, I don't know that you can prevent it," said
Capt. Mark Couey, who heads homeland security for the Washington State
Patrol.

But Couey noted that violence at malls is extremely rare.

"I don't think it calls for people to be paranoid or install metal
detectors," Couey said. "I don't think the public would stand for
either." This, from a homeland security rep, COMMON SENSE?!?

In the Tacoma case, Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, was arrested Sunday
after six people were hurt, one critically. Maldonado sent a text
message to his ex-girlfriend minutes before the rampage, saying, "Today
is the day the world will know my anger," the woman said Monday.

At the SuperMall in Auburn, Wash., a shopping complex a few miles from
the Tacoma Mall, security measures include video surveillance, 24-hour
patrols, training for security officers and a police substation. But
Dennis Nicholson, the mall's general manager, said such precautions
cannot necessarily stop something like Sunday's rampage. I.E. THE
POLICE CANNOT PROTECT YOU, MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK TO YOUR OWN
DEFENSE.

"We can't prevent that individual from doing that," see last comment
Nicholson said. "In this day and age in particular, I think that
the American public needs to be ever so more aware of their
surroundings. It doesn't matter if they're in a shopping mall or a
sports arena."

In the United States, there are about 1,200 enclosed malls and 44,000
shopping centers with a total of 190 million shoppers a month, said
Malachy Kavanagh, a spokesman for the International Council of Shopping
Centers.

Malls have long been considered vulnerable to terrorist attacks. In the
past year, malls in several states have taught security guards how to
spot suicide bombers through training offered by the Homeland Security
Department.

The risk is not likely to keep shoppers away from the malls.

"It's all about the time and the place," said shopper Deb Kraft, who was
walking in the Valley Mall in Union Gap, near Yakima. "I don't think
they're going to target a mall any differently than they will target a
football game or mini-mart or a liquor store."

Economists say that shootings like the one in Tacoma have no effect on
shoppers' behavior.

"Unfortunately, random shootings of this nature are not a unique event,"
Carl Steidtmann, chief economist at Deloitte Research. "I think until it
happens in a material way where there are mass causalities, I just don't
think it's something that crosses people's mind."

---

Associated Press Reporter Shannon Dininny in Yakima and Curt Woodward in
Tacoma contributed to this report.

So I'm wondering if the author of this report is affiliated with the TSA
worker's union, and is just trying to find an outlet for new work. Are
you ready to be wanded and patted down to get to the Sam Goody?

jmm

HighVelocity
November 22, 2005, 03:30 PM
Outlaw shopping malls. Problem solved. :neener:

Borachon
November 22, 2005, 03:54 PM
Outlaw shopping malls.

When you outlaw shopping malls, then only outlaws will have shopping malls.

grimjaw
November 22, 2005, 04:18 PM
When you outlaw shopping malls, then only outlaws will have shopping malls.

Outlaws don't have shopping malls; outlaws zone and develop shopping malls.

jmm

nomadboi
November 22, 2005, 04:53 PM
I forgot another from the paper- picture caption shows a county sherrif (I think) "putting on a flack vest". Man, I hope they have more than just flack vests...

lance22
November 22, 2005, 05:05 PM
They ban guns on their premesis? I guess they should have also banned assault, shooting, robbery, and murder. It's funny that they post against LEGAL carry, but do not post against criminal activity. I guess that shows where their priorities are at.

Cosmoline
November 22, 2005, 06:49 PM
Forget the Seattle rag. The Tacoma paper has much better coverage, including this bit on the citizen with a handgun who appears to have backed the shooter out of the main mall:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/breaking/story/5351456p-4844130c.html

A confrontation between Dominick S. Maldonado, the Tacoma Mall shooting suspect, and the most severely injured victim, Brendan “Dan” McKown, 38, may have stopped Maldonado’s shooting spree Sunday.
...

acdodd
November 22, 2005, 06:52 PM
02:44 PM PST on Tuesday, November 22, 2005
By JIM KLOCKOW / KING5.com

TACOMA – The man critically wounded when 20-year-old Dominick Maldonado brought two assault-style weapons to the Tacoma Mall Sunday was himself carrying a gun, his parents said Tuesday.

Brendan “Dan” McKown, 38, is likely facing a lifetime of paralysis below the waist, his parents told the media during a press conference Tuesday at the hospital with McKown’s parents, Roger and Beverly McKown.

Two of Maldonado’s bullets reportedly pierced McKown’s abdomen and lodged in his spine, damaging his spinal cord.

McKown’s father said that he believed his son may have helped prevent the mall rampage from being worse.

“My son is licensed and registered to carry a weapon. It’s out understanding that he confronted the gunman,” Roger McKown said.

“Dan is always one who believed in protecting people and he put his life on the line for other people,” he said. “His actions and the actions of others like him may have prevented additional casualties by confronting the aggression and possibly changing the gunman’s action early the conflict.”

Dan McKown has worked for seven years at the Excalibur Cutlery store in the mall, where he is the assistant manager.

Roger McKown said that the store’s owner had agreed to keep his son on the payroll for the time being.

Dan McKown was also described as a a religious man who held weekly prayer meetings at his house, a photographer and a bit of a standup comic.

“He’s just brilliantly funny,” said his father.

Dan McKown was born in Tacoma General, the hospital where he now clings to life.



I have heard reports that he jumped on the shooter. In hindsight it might have been better to shoot him, but I wasn't there so it's only speculation on my part.
This is the first I have heard he had 2 "assault-style weapons". I did hear he had 1 rifle and 1 handgun. But the media never lets the fact get in the way of a good story.

Langenator
November 22, 2005, 06:58 PM
Update: This may confirm a couple of the earlier posts, including Farnham's.

Wounded man may have put brakes on shooting spree (http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/breaking/story/5351456p-4844130c.html)

confrontation between Dominick S. Maldonado, the Tacoma Mall shooting suspect, and the most severely injured victim, Brendan “Dan” McKown, 38, may have stopped Maldonado’s shooting spree Sunday.
McKown, an assistant manager at Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts, pulled a gun on Maldonado outside of the Kits Camera outlet, according to his mother, Patricia Schuman, who said police told her what happened.

Police are unsure whether McKown fired at Maldonado.

McKown almost always carried a gun, his family said, in case he needed to come to someone's aid.

He had been walking through the mall to make a deposit when he met Maldonado.

Maldonado shot McKown probably three times in the side from a distance of 20 feet, severing his bowel and injuring his spinal cord. McKown, who's also a stand-up comic, might never walk again.



Now, if he had a permit,and a gun, and didn't shoot, the question is why not? Best guess would be too many people around, either between him (McKown) and the shooter, or in the background.

Cosmoline
November 22, 2005, 07:02 PM
It's something of a repeat of the Texas episode where the CCW holder was killed. In both cases the display of a handgun seems to have cut short a would-be rampage but in neither case could a short gun beat a long gun. In such a fight the odds are overwhelmingly against the short gun--esp. if the person holding it is concerned about hitting bystanders and the man with the long gun WANTS to hit bystanders.

NineseveN
November 22, 2005, 07:33 PM
Wait, did he actually have his gun with him at the time?

ny32182
November 22, 2005, 08:39 PM
I thought it said in an earlier report that the guy jumped the shooter from behind (hand to hand), but was shot several times anyway, presumably at point blank. If he was shot from 20 feet away, I wonder if he had his gun in hand. Maybe he didn't shoot if the only shot he had was at the assailant's back... we know how shooting him in the back would play out in the media.

Also, I wonder if the CCW guy was shot before or after the assailant transitioned to the long gun.

While his actions were heroic, I don't see any indication from the reports that they stopped or slowed the assault, unlike the case in Texas where the guy with the CCW was able to wound the assailant (and probably would have stopped the fight entirely, except for the BG's body armor... I believe he got more than one round COM) prior to being killed.

George S.
November 22, 2005, 09:26 PM
Wait, did he actually have his gun with him at the time?

According to local news reports, McKowan was armed. He was carrying his store receipts to a bank when he came across the shooter. He had pulled his pistol when the shooter saw him but Maldonado fired 4 rounds at him. One local TV station interviewed McKown's parents and his dad has called him a hero for taking action.

The TV spot also pretty much confirmed that McKowan's spine was torn up so bad that he will probably never walk again.

The TV stations are still in the dark (or not saying) as to what specific weapons the kid had outside of saying one was an assualt rifle and the other a machine pistol. At some point we'll probably see the weapons the kid had.

Most all the area malls have a no weapons policy. I usually completely ignore the signs. If one does a good job of concealing your CCW, then nobody should know. Hopefully the store owner will not fire McKown for having a weapon on him. I wouldn't be suprised if the Tacoma Mall management will probably try to take some sort of action against the owner of the store (and a KNIFE store at that) for allowing employees to carry a weapon on mall property.

A few years ago, the Tacoma Mall was not a place to be in at night. Lots of gang-banger roamed the place and pretty much made it an unsafe place to be. There is a TPD office in the Mall but it hasn't had a officer assigned there for a few years due to budget cuts. It's still used as a place for LEO' s to write reports, make phone calls and meet with other officers. There were apparently no LEO's in the office at the time of the shootings.

Old Dog
November 22, 2005, 09:34 PM
One of the local stations (think it was KOMO-4 or KING-5) displayed a photo of an SKS, saying, "Maldonado was armed with an assault rifle that was a clone of this," and then showed a pic of a Tec-9 stating, "He also carried a clone of this semi-automatic pistol, known as a Tec-9." Clone of an SKS? And the pistol was a Cobray, maybe?

Most all the area malls have a no weapons policy.Hmm, as far as up,down and around Puget Sound, I've been to Bellis Fair (Bellingham), Cascade Mall (Burlington), Everett, Alderwood, Northgate, Southcenter, , Auburn Supermall, Kitsap Mall ... never seen "No Gun" signage at any of those ... I usually completely ignore the signs. If one does a good job of concealing your CCW, then nobody should know.Exactly, as I'm sure 99.9% of all the CPL holders who patronize the Tacoma Mall do as well ...

grimjaw
November 22, 2005, 10:28 PM
Most all the area malls have a no weapons policy.

I'm sure they have a 'no theft' policy too.

jmm

c_yeager
November 22, 2005, 10:36 PM
Hmm, as far as up,down and around Puget Sound, I've been to Bellis Fair (Bellingham), Cascade Mall (Burlington), Everett, Alderwood, Northgate, Southcenter, , Auburn Supermall, Kitsap Mall ... never seen "No Gun" signage at any of those ...

I can confirm this as well. The only places I've ever seen "no weapons" signs in Washingtone are in bars, schools, and hospitals. I've never seen such signage at any retail establishment.

I was just in Northgate Mall in Seattle last week and I didnt see any signs, that mall is managed by the same company that manages the Tacoma mall (Simon).

UnknownSailor
November 23, 2005, 12:39 PM
Cascade Mall has no signs. I've looked, believe you me. The Lowes theater inside does have a no weapons policy, but I ignore it.

I heard on the news today that the Mr. McKown comes off the respirator today, but is in a coma. I wish him well.:(

tarrigoni
November 23, 2005, 12:45 PM
Southcenter has signs that say "No Weapons" along with a myriad list of other prohibited activities. It stands to reason, then, that all the other westfield shopping centers have the same thing.

MillCreek
November 23, 2005, 03:12 PM
The local Tacoma News Tribune is just reporting that Mr. Maldonado used a Chinese AK-47 and a TEC-9 in his recent assault. The AK-47 was purchased from a private party via a newspaper ad and the TEC-9 was purchased from 'a gang banger type on the street'.

carnaby
November 23, 2005, 04:42 PM
Hmmm, last time I was at Southcenter I was packing. I didn't notice the signs. Oh well, next time I'll be sure to notice them and care a great deal :rolleyes:

Old Dog
November 23, 2005, 06:21 PM
This is not good ... from the KING-5 website: (Clearly, this would be a pretty irresponsible seller.)


Report: Mall shooting suspect bought gun from classifieds
12:44 PM PST on Wednesday, November 23, 2005
KING Staff and Wire Reports

Related Content
Mall reopens
TACOMA – More details of the alleged shooter at the Tacoma Mall Sunday, 20-year-old Dominick Maldonado, continued to emerge Wednesday.

The Tacoma News Tribune reported Wednesday that Maldonado bought the guns used the shooting from someone who had placed an ad in a newspaper and another person on the street, his attorney said Wednesday.
Sverre Staurset, the public defender representing Maldonado in his assault and kidnapping case, said his client bought a Chinese version of an AK-47 from an newspaper ad within the last six months.

Maldonado bought the pistol, which was a Tec-9, from someone - "a gang-banger type" - on the street on Portland Avenue East, the attorney said. He'd had that gun for longer.

Because he had a felony conviction as a juvenile, Maldonado wasn't allowed to posess a gun, the newspaper said.

Meanwhile, doctors at Tacoma General Hospital said the man critically wounded in the shooting will remain on a ventillator at least another day. They say he's not ready to start breathing on his own just yet.


On Monday, Maldonado was charged with eight counts of first degree assault -- including two counts for people who were not actually hit by fire -- plus four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unauthorized possession of a firearm.

In charging documents, prosecutors said Maldonado denied intending to actually shoot anyone, but was trying to draw media attention.

Hawkmoon
November 23, 2005, 06:46 PM
This is not good ... from the KING-5 website: (Clearly, this would be a pretty irresponsible seller.)
On the contrary, I think this is good. It proves conclusively that piling more and more laws on top of the laws we already have does NOTHING to prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. This guy was prohibited by law from buying or possessing guns, But the laws did not prevent him from buying guns. They simply provide another charge to be added to the tally sheet after he used the guns in his rampage.

That's the problem with a vast majority of laws today, and not only gun laws. They are feel good laws, intended to "protect" us, yet they don't prevent the activity they are supposed to protect us from. Often, they are NEVER enforced. They are looked up after the fact and added to the laundry list of charges. What good does that do? Answer: none whatsoever. The horse is out of the barn. The victims are dead-dead-dead. Who cares that he was prohibited from owning guns? The prohibition was clearly meaningless, a proverbial "toothless tiger."

It's as they say: "Locks are made to keep honest people out." So we have a guy who couldn't legally buy a gun, who bought a pistol from someone who couldn't legally sell a gun. More laws cannot prevent that. Putting one of them ... either one ... in jail would have prevented that. So instead of harrassing honest gun dealers and honest gun buyers, why aren't the police and the BATFE out getting the gang banger gun sellers off the street corners? That would have far more effect than yet another useless layer of feel good legislation.

Veritas
November 23, 2005, 08:24 PM
Donations at any Bank of America under "Dan McKown medical fund"

Dan McKown is a victim of the Tacoma shooting, he is the most seriously injured victim and will likely be paralyzed.

He had a CCW and confronted the shooter, trying to help others who were being shot.

This guy sure needs some financial help, he has a long road to recovery -- and a hard transition to make as he adapts to being disabled.

I'd urge folks to consider dropping $5 or $10 or $20 in the fund for Dan.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002641156_mallshooting23m.html

http://komo4.com/stories/40392.htm

Donations at any Bank of America under "Dan McKown medical fund"

I recieved the donation instruction from a Komo news 4 broadcast, I have not seen the instruction in a printed article yet.


MODS: I apologize for the dbl post, I figured that the extenuating circumstances of a person in need warrented getting the info. If it's a problem please delete one of the posts

atek3
November 23, 2005, 09:28 PM
On the contrary, I think this is good. It proves conclusively that piling more and more laws on top of the laws we already have does NOTHING to prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. This guy was prohibited by law from buying or possessing guns, But the laws did not prevent him from buying guns. They simply provide another charge to be added to the tally sheet after he used the guns in his rampage.

No offense, but that is crazy gun-nut logic. What this says to any "normal" person, is that there are still loopholes that need to be closed. For starters, why were there 'assault weapons' in society... ban them. Why were people selling guns in the classified... ban all transfers not through a dealer.

Thinking that this "shows that laws don't work" is delusional, to a normal person it shows that more laws are needed. If you told average americans that this:

http://deskmerc.com/pixors/file7/m4-01.jpg

can be paid for with cash off paper, by almost anyone, they'd freak out!

What they wouldn't think is, "boy the existing laws don't work, so we should get rid of them"... that is straight up crazy talk.

If I wasn't clear about my position, I think all gun laws should be abolished, but then again, I'm a "crazy gun-nut". I'm just explaining how "normal people" think.

atek3

deanf
November 24, 2005, 02:27 AM
Most states require the owner/agent to ask you to leave, and then for you to refuse before it can be considered trespassing.

Well if you are carrying, and you read the "no weapons" sign, haven't you been asked to leave?

And if you then walk through the door, aren't you refusing the request (established above) to leave?

I too ignore the signs. I think it's possible that an anti-gun cop could use my theory to establish PC for an arrest, even if no conviction ever resulted. An arrest is trouble. Lot's of trouble for someone not used to being a part of the criminal justice system.

And cops do arrest or cite people for things that they know they will never be convicted of, just to cause trouble or mete out punishment.

c_yeager
November 24, 2005, 03:39 AM
Well if you are carrying, and you read the "no weapons" sign, haven't you been asked to leave?

And if you then walk through the door, aren't you refusing the request (established above) to leave?


By opening the door to the pulbic you have invited the public into your building. One can only be asked to leave on an individual basis. This is why clubs with dress codes have to have them enforced by bouncers at the door, rather than with signage.

When it really comes down to it people are not required to even read non-government signs at all. I have to read no-parking signs and I have to know the law. I do not have to read every sign put up by some yokel outside his building.

tarrigoni
November 24, 2005, 12:29 PM
Well if you are carrying, and you read the "no weapons" sign, haven't you been asked to leave?


"What sign, officer? I came into the mall through Nordstroms and never saw a sign!"

MillCreek
November 24, 2005, 12:32 PM
In today's Tacoma News Tribune, the 69 year old private collector who sold a MAK-90 to Mr. Maldonado was interviewed. Of note, he states that Mr. Maldonado showed him a valid concealed weapons permit as ID to complete the sale.

Mr. Maldonado is not eligible for a carry permit in Washington insofar as he is not yet 21 and is a convicted felon.

NineseveN
November 24, 2005, 12:55 PM
From John Farnam
23 Nov 05

Update on Tacoma, WA:

The rusty CZ, with the slide locked halfway due to a double-feed, that was
found at the scene and assumed to have belonged to the suspect, as it turns
out, actually belonged to the victim! The victim, the only one seriously
injured in the incident, apparently attempted to shoot the suspect. His
pistol only fired once, and the shot missed. The rusty, poorly-maintained
CZ then double-fed, and had no further involvement. The victim was
subsequently shot four times in the torso by the suspect.

The suspect himself brought a Tech-Nine clone (9mm) and a Kalashnikov
clone, but, despite firing many shots, was unable to produce any further
serious injuries.

Several additional lessons: The mall where the incident took place has a "no
firearms" policy, which supposedly applies even to people with valid CCW
permits. Of course, like all stupid, unenforceable rules, this one is
universally ignored, and should be!

The victim was indeed courageous as he tried to end the shooting spree.
However, carrying rusty, poorly-maintained pistols has its risks! I know
nothing about his training, but he was obviously unable to hit the suspect,
didn't have a back-up pistol, and either did not try to, or was unable to,
get his pistol running after it experienced a stoppage.

When you have the heart of a lion, you had better have a lion's teeth and a
lion's acumen also!

/John

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, why carry it if you're not going to maintain it in working condition? Too bad for the guy, he's in a world of hurt I'd imagine and probably wishing he would have trained more and cared for his weapon properly.

Training, training, training.
I clean my carry piece with a dry towel and q-tip about as often as I change my underwear (once per day, barring any unforseen need to go further and do more).

I clean it with the full arsenal of products I use a couple of times per month aside from cleaning after shooting.

I also try and train hard, and despite all of that, I still know the deck is stacked against me. I feel terrible for the CCW guy, but it's hard to refrain from thinking what he did was brave, what he didn't do was foolish and nearly cost him his own life.

ny32182
November 24, 2005, 02:24 PM
Is there any way to confirm this? Who is John Farnam?

I give my carry piece a good cleaning and lube after every single range trip, and this is why. It has never failed to go bang, ever.

Maybe if the guy had taken the time to properly maintain his pistol, he would still have use of his legs. Now we will never know.:(

Sindawe
November 24, 2005, 02:29 PM
atek3, why would the average american get their undies in a knot over a harmless rendering of a rifle? :neener: I feel terrible for the CCW guy, but it's hard to refrain from thinking what he did was brave, what he didn't do was foolish and nearly cost him his own life. Yeppers. Like all things mechanical, one's CCW weapon needs routine maintenance.

Old Dog
November 24, 2005, 02:29 PM
Hawkmoon, the following story is exactly why I first said, "This is not good."

Weapons were bought, bartered in private deals
No background check required in such cases

By JAKE ELLISON
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Dominick Sergio Maldonado, accused of shooting six people and taking hostages in the Tacoma Mall on Sunday, slipped through the cracks in gun laws to get the two weapons he used in his rampage.

His attorney said Wednesday that Maldonado, 20, told him he got the weapons through a newspaper ad and a trade with a neighbor. Laws requiring background checks don't cover such private transactions. That's a loophole that gun-control advocates say ought to be closed, but supporters of gun rights say a better solution is keeping people such as Maldonado, who has a long criminal record, under close supervision.

The shooting suspect bought the rifle he is accused of using in the shooting within the past six months and bartered with a neighbor for a Tech-9 style "machine pistol" nearly a year ago, said Sverre Staurset, a Pierce County public defender.

Staurset said Maldonado didn't identify the people who sold or traded him the guns.

Maldonado's criminal record prohibits him from owning guns. State and federal laws also require that buyers of pistols be at least 21.

Pierce County prosecutors charged Maldonado on Monday with eight counts of first-degree assault, four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm. His bail has been set at $2 million.

One shooting victim, Brendan McKown, was in critical condition Wednesday in Tacoma General Hospital.

Hospital officials said McKown would remain on a ventilator at least until today. McKown was shot multiple times in the abdomen and likely will be paralyzed permanently because of damage to his spinal column.

Tacoma police said Wednesday that detectives and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had contacted the person who advertised the assault rifle in the "Little Nickel" want ads and sold it to Maldonado. Police said the sale "was within the confines of the law." They were still trying to track the source of the second gun.



The shooting has added fuel to the debate over how guns are bought and sold.

Advocates for gun control said that Maldonado's ability to buy or trade for the guns despite his criminal record demonstrates the need for mandatory background checks for private sellers.
Natalie Reber, executive director of Washington CeaseFire, also noted that the 20-year-old suspect was too young to buy a handgun, something else a background check would have shown. The head of the Second Amendment Foundation, a Bellevue-based legal-defense organization dedicated to preserving the right to bear arms, said someone determined to shoot up a crowded mall would have broken any law to get guns.

"That's the problem, and that's why despite having gun-control laws on the books, people find a way to buy guns whether it breaks the law or not," said Alan Gottlieb, the group's founder.

The bigger issue, he said, is that Maldonado wasn't under court supervision. Staurset confirmed that Maldonado, who had an extensive juvenile record, wasn't under court-ordered supervision.

Supervision might have meant that a community corrections officer could have discovered whether Maldonado had a gun, Gottlieb said.

"I was assuming he was under parole or probation," Gottlieb said. "If he wasn't, I'm even more appalled."

Despite the fact that background checks are not mandatory for private sales or trades, Gottlieb warned potential gun sellers that they should run background checks on their own, which he said are available through the Washington State Patrol.

"It would be interesting to know who this neighbor is" who traded with Maldonado, he said. "If he knew about his background, he should be prosecuted."

Gottlieb said gun sellers also could face civil lawsuits if the gun they sold injures another person. "I would never sell a firearm to a stranger without having a background check run," he said.

P-I reporter Jake Ellison can be reached at 206-448-8346 or jakeellison@seattlepi.com.

NineseveN
November 24, 2005, 03:01 PM
This is John Farnam:
http://www.defense-training.com/

ny32182
November 24, 2005, 03:06 PM
Ahh... thought the name sounded somewhat familiar... any idea where that info came from originally?

NineseveN
November 24, 2005, 06:49 PM
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

That's where the quote came from on his site. Not sure where he got his infor from, but he's usually pretty reliable so I'm kinda leaning towards it being legit for the most part.

Hawkmoon
November 24, 2005, 09:04 PM
Hawkmoon, the following story is exactly why I first said, "This is not good."
Point taken.

Bobarino
November 25, 2005, 02:15 PM
i didn't see that message on Farnam's site. where exactly is it?

Bobby

NineseveN
November 25, 2005, 02:34 PM
It's in the "quips" section I posted above. More direct link ---> http://www.defense-training.com/quips/20Nov05.html

Bobarino
November 25, 2005, 02:36 PM
all i see is this, which says the suspect was the one with the jammed CZ?? it only goes to 20nov05. where is 23nov05?




20Nov05

Active Shooter in Tacoma, WA Mall, from a friend at the scene:

"Today's shooting involved a twenty-year-old, Hispanic male, high on crystal meth. It was an attempted suicide-by-cop. However, during the ent ire incident, no police bullets were ever fired at the suspect. The suspect wa s armed with a CZ 9mm pistol, loaded with Remington Golden Saber ammunition. He also had a Kalashnikov clone (7.62X39, hardball ammunition) secreted in a guitar case.

He started by firing his pistol randomly down a mall corridor. He was jumped from behind by an unarmed mall patron who attempted to disarm him. In the ensuing struggle, the patron was hit four times in the torso before the suspect's badly-rusted and poorly maintained CZ experienced a stoppa ge which precluded additional shooting by the suspect. The heroic patron was the on ly person seriously injured during the incident. All other injuries were mino r, mostly caused by ricochets and people being trampled during the panicked ex it of mall shoppers.

With his pistol non-operational an apparently not knowing how to fix it, th e suspect abandoned it and reverted to his AK, again firing randomly. Our ' Active-Shooter' training really paid off! First officers to arrive did not hesitate. They organized into the diamond formation and entered the mall building straightaway, moving toward the sound of gunfire. Some officers w ere armed with Ruger Mini-14s. Upon seeing advancing officers, then suspect ran into

a mall store and took three hostages. Officers were successful in containi ng the suspect and clearing the rest of the mall.

Negotiations began. At one point, the suspect fell asleep! He eventually gave up and released all hostages. He is currently in custody, uninjured. No shots were fired by police."

Comment: As my friend indicated, "Active Shooter" training i s critical for all departments, big and small. It surely worked here. The suspect was rapidly contained, and damage was minimized. SWAT teams were eventually involved, but the guys who heroically organized themselves and entered the building first were plain-vanilla patrolmen. They deserve a lot of credit. Good sh ow, guys!

/John


????

Bobby

NineseveN
November 25, 2005, 03:10 PM
Well hehe, it /was/ there. I just copied the link from today when you asked without looking at it or reading it, there is no longer a Nov 23rd on there either, wonder what gives?

Beats me. :confused:

Bobarino
November 25, 2005, 03:18 PM
ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't me going crazy. maybe they're updating? i'll check back later.

Bobby

NineseveN
November 25, 2005, 03:44 PM
Might be me going crazy. :evil:

MillCreek
November 25, 2005, 03:50 PM
As more information comes out in the local media, the account posted on the Farnam website looks increasingly inaccurate.

Old Dog
November 25, 2005, 03:53 PM
MillCreek, I agree with you.

jkswiss
November 25, 2005, 06:10 PM
Was it a Chinese Norinco SKS or AK-47?? A couple days ago, Channel 7? Northwest news was doing a piece on this and showed a Chinese SKS "Assault" rifle w. ten high powered rifle rounds along w/ a tec 9. How fast can it fire? they asked. As fast as you can pull the trigger was the answer.

tomkatz
November 25, 2005, 09:21 PM
Was it a Chinese Norinco SKS or AK-47?? A couple days ago, Channel 7? Northwest news was doing a piece on this and showed a Chinese SKS "Assault" rifle w. ten high powered rifle rounds along w/ a tec 9. How fast can it fire? they asked. As fast as you can pull the trigger was the answer.

I saw a news report thanksgiving eve that did show a SKS and then proceeded to say the gun used was a MAK 90.....I heard from a friend of McKown that the gun was a mak 90, and he also had the tec-9.
......tom

Langenator
November 26, 2005, 12:52 AM
All the news reports I've seen stated the McKown didn't get a shot off, so I've got doubts as to the veracity of Farnham's source.

Maldonado obviously took at least some steps-making/procuring the fake CPL-to conceal the fact that he wasn't supposed to be buying a gun. And the guy he bought the gun from sounds like he did what I would call due diligence-he wrote down the driver's license # and the CPL (which turned out to be Maldonado's SSN) and knew enough to know that a CPL should indicate a clean criminal record.

CombatArmsUSAF
November 26, 2005, 01:17 AM
Do stores like walmart have the right to strip our rights away just by posting a sign?

I understand the state law about carrying in bars, government establishments etc..

But could walmart do anything more than ask you to leave if they noticed you were carrying?

CombatArmsUSAF
November 26, 2005, 01:19 AM
Also, This is a prime example on why we need to have the right to carry

ctdonath
November 26, 2005, 12:16 PM
Turns out the main victim WAS carrying and tried to fight back - and became a lesson in why to properly maintain your CCW gun:The rusty CZ, with the slide locked halfway due to a double-feed, that was
found at the scene and assumed to have belonged to the suspect, as it turns
out, actually belonged to the victim! The victim, the only one seriously
injured in the incident, apparently attempted to shoot the suspect. His pistol
only fired once, and the shot missed. The rusty, poorly-maintained CZ then
double-fed, and had no further involvement. The victim was subsequently shot
four times in the torso by the suspect.

NineseveN
November 26, 2005, 02:00 PM
ctdonath: Where did you find that, or are you quoting my post?

ctdonath
November 26, 2005, 02:28 PM
On a mailing list of interesting material.

Old Dog
November 26, 2005, 04:33 PM
ctdonath said Turns out the main victim WAS carrying and tried to fight back - and became a lesson in why to properly maintain your CCW gun:Don't believe everything you get in your e-mail. TPD is being very close-mouthed about whether McCown actually pulled his handgun (and the only source claiming that he did is his father) and has released no information on McCown's actions; none of the witnesses interviewed by local media claim McCown drew his weapon either. We'll just have to wait for more information to come out.

NineseveN
November 26, 2005, 05:48 PM
On a mailing list of interesting material.

Heh, I got two of those e-mails as well, but one of mine also had a link to a web page that at the time I thought was Farnam's, now I am not so sure as this does not seem to appear on his website at this time...

rwc
November 27, 2005, 03:03 PM
My secretary left the Sam Goody about 5 minutes before this happened.
She won't be shopping in Tacoma any more...

MillCreek
November 29, 2005, 12:26 PM
In today's Tacoma and Seattle papers, there is an interview with Mr. McKown. Of note, he states that he drew his gun, but then put it back in his belt. He hesitated to shoot Mr. Maldonado, but while maintaining eye contact with him and holding his hand near his gun (type unspecified), told Mr. Maldonado to put his gun down. Mr. Maldonado promptly opened fire on Mr. McKown, striking him five times.

I was not there at the scene, and as such I cannot speak to Mr. McKown's actions. I think, however, that it shows the dangers inherent in telling an armed gunman to put his weapon down, while not holding a weapon of your own on the suspect. For my own future reference, should I ever be in a similar situation, and I am in a position to fire without endangering others, I believe I will skip the verbal challenge part and proceed briskly to the 'slide lock' or 'empty cylinder' phase of the process. As is often the case, real life is not like the movies, and armed assailants do not always stop their assault and surrender upon a verbal challenge.

Henry Bowman
November 29, 2005, 12:47 PM
Thanks for posting the update. The interview is enlightening.

Mindset is everything. I hope I would have had more of a warrior mindset, not hesitate or reholster after having heard shots, but all of us are hampered by Rule #4, and the bad guys are not. :( Frustrating.

Biker
November 29, 2005, 12:52 PM
I'm curious. Had the BG already put out rounds prior to Mckown's challenge?
In any case, I believe that he should've let Maldanado hold a couple, preferably from the back. It's possible though, if Maldanado hadn't opened fire yet, that Mckown wasn't sure of his intentions as in: Is he here to pawn a gun or -insert your own possibility...
Far fetched, but possible.
If Maldanado had already pulled the trigger, put a couple in him. I wouldn't shoot more than I had to because, today, you can't be sure if he's alone or not.
A swarthy looking guy with an AK, SKS, whatever, might be accompanied by others, and every round that you have with you could be needed for other threats.
Biker

MillCreek
November 29, 2005, 01:26 PM
I'm curious. Had the BG already put out rounds prior to Mckown's challenge?

According to the newspaper articles, yes, Mr. Maldonado had already fired several shots by the time he walked down to the area of the mall where Mr. McKown was.

Henry Bowman
November 29, 2005, 01:29 PM
Link to the Tacoma News Tribune story: http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5363616p-4853200c.html

Biker
November 29, 2005, 01:31 PM
I guess that only Mckown can provide the answer to his hesitation then. I don't understand it, but I wasn't there and we're wearing different shoes.
I wish the guy luck and a full recovery, and I tip one to him. He stood up.
Biker

MillCreek
November 29, 2005, 04:46 PM
I wish the guy luck and a full recovery, and I tip one to him. He stood up.

+1 to that, sir.

mete
November 29, 2005, 09:38 PM
It sounds like he was not at all mentally prepared to deal with the situation ! This was a life threatening situation and he decided to talk !!

Biker
November 29, 2005, 10:00 PM
Could be you're right, mete. On the other hand, nothing can really 'mentally prepare' you for getting hit in the mouth. You can read about it, watch all the Rocky movies in the world, and shadow-box all day, but when you finally get hit for the first time, you're gonna be shocked.
Don't judge 'im too harshly...
Biker

Manedwolf
December 2, 2005, 09:19 AM
The local Tacoma News Tribune is just reporting that Mr. Maldonado used a Chinese AK-47 and a TEC-9 in his recent assault. The AK-47 was purchased from a private party via a newspaper ad and the TEC-9 was purchased from 'a gang banger type on the street'.

You're kidding! Man...as soon as I heard the media bit about "machine pistol", I figured "Oh, he had an old crap Intratec TEC-9." Because the media in S. Florida always used to call them that. Just crappily made inaccurate spray-and-pray 9mm semiautos with a barrel shroud and large mag.

Shame he didn't use only that one, it might have just come apart on him or blown up in his hand and ended it. :(

LaVere
December 3, 2005, 09:46 AM
The fear of one brandishing our weapon. And don't pull your weapon unless you are going to shoot. Has got to change in the laws and in our minds. It has become such a mind set that if we pull our weapon we have to kill someone.

Read the new paper clip below.

M. ALEXANDER OTTO; The News Tribune
Published: November 29th, 2005 02:30 AM


McKown knows guns, and knew what he heard was a high-caliber,
military-style weapon. He even thought two people could be firing.


He walked to the front of the store to see what was going on, and took a
defensive posture, crouched to one side in the store’s entrance. He had
his gun out, but tucked it back into his belt, under his clothes, after
thinking better of it.

Dan and his family said they heard from police that even before
Maldonado met McKown, a person had already pulled a gun on Maldonado
outside of the J.C. Penney store, but didn’t fire out of fear of hitting
passers-by.



Tacoma police spokesman Mark Fulghum said investigators interviewed at
least two people who were in the mall during the shooting who were
carrying handguns. He didn’t know if either of them pointed a gun at
Maldonado, he said.

“I’m not going to dispute it, he was there,” Fulghum said of Roger
McKown’s account of another person with a gun. “I just can’t say for
sure.”

End of article

Promotion of safe and responcible pulling of your weapon should be encouraged by law, police positive support, and proper legal actions. And not if you pull you must kill or it is brandishing.

coylh
December 9, 2005, 06:10 PM
Amazing...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002674324_webshootingcharges09.html

However, Maldonado's defense attorney said his client never meant to hurt anyone.

"He didn't go to the mall to shoot anybody. He didn't go to the mall to rob a bank. He didn't go there to take hostages. He went there ostensibly to make a statement," Sverre Staurset said.

Langenator
December 9, 2005, 06:25 PM
OK, if he never meant to hurt anyone, how about charging him with one count of reckless endangerment for each and every person in the mall when he started shooting? Sentances to be served consecutively.

Sure, he didn't mean to actually hit them, but by firing the gun, he put every single person in that mall in danger of being hit by a bullet or ricochet.

U.S.SFC_RET
December 10, 2005, 07:46 AM
If the victim had indeed drawn his pistol out and fired one round and experienced a jam do you think that if he trained to handle that contingency he'd be walking today? More than likely yes.
A well known gun dealer knew someone "there" (heresay to me) knew about the jam the victim had experienced. To me the guy is a hero nonetheless. :cool:

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