What's up with all of the SHTF threads?


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R.W.Dale
November 20, 2005, 10:25 PM
I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here. The only SHTF I'm seriously worried about is the kind that involves a gas station burrito a lack of TP coupled with a malfunctioning celing fan.:what:

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wingnutx
November 20, 2005, 10:28 PM
They're fun.

Also, sometimes the S does HTF. It sure did in New Orleans.

rick_reno
November 20, 2005, 10:30 PM
Thanksgiving cooks around the nation have been buying up all the available tinfoil stock - the shortage has resulted in some THR members hearing voices, getting transmissions and having their dogs talk to them about dire future events. Things should return to normal in a few weeks, once the holidays have passed.

adaman04
November 20, 2005, 10:44 PM
Maybe if some of the folks in NO, LA had done some of these stupid scenarios, we wouldn't have to be down there wiping so many a$$es. Don't get me wrong, those people needed A LOT of help. But, should any able-bodied person have been completely helpless? No. Just because I keep plenty of ammo and food and water in the house should I need it doesn't make me an idiot or a worrier. It's called being prepared. You shouldn't wear your seatbelt either, because what are the real chances you're going to have an accident? See my point?

R.W.Dale
November 20, 2005, 10:46 PM
Maybe if some of the folks in NO, LA had done some of these stupid scenarios, we wouldn't have to be down there wiping so many a$$es. Don't get me wrong, those people needed A LOT of help. But, should any able-bodied person have been completely helpless? No. Just because I keep plenty of ammo and food and water in the house should I need it doesn't make me an idiot or a worrier. It's called being prepared. You shouldn't wear your seatbelt either, because what are the real chances you're going to have an accident? See my point?
No.

Waffen
November 20, 2005, 10:51 PM
I think the point he is trying to make is when the S does HTF there is much more to worry about than if you should use your AR or AK, or if you should bring the 1903, or Mosin Nagant.

I too find it redicilous at some of the posts on here. Some of the things I have seen on here down right scare me. I know that I will be prepared if something does happen, but why the hell do I need to bother with "should I shoot Wolf FMJ or XM109"? In case anyone noticed New Orleans is a little bit different than Iraq.

I was hoping these threads would stop with the start of school, but I have been let down. :mad:

It's all over when I see "Hornady 165 interlocks or 150gr Sierra Gamekings for urban SHTF" in the reloading forum. These days it feels like the only forum that is safe from these posts.

R.W.Dale
November 20, 2005, 10:57 PM
I think the point he is trying to make is when the S does HTF there is much more to worry about than if you should use your AR or AK, or if you should bring the 1903, or Mosin Nagant.

I too find it redecilous at some of the posts on here. Some of the things I have seen on here down right scare me. I know that I will be prepared if something does happen, but why the hell do I need to bother with "should I shoot Wolf FMJ or XM109"?

I was hoping these threads would stop with the start of school, but I have been let down. :mad:

It's all over when I see "Hornady 165 interlocks or 150gr Sierra Gamekings for urban SHTF" in the reloading forum. These days it feels like thats all that is safe.


OK Now I catch what he is saying. But it still doesn't explain all of the SHTF pretaining to firearms.

Waffen
November 20, 2005, 11:00 PM
OK Now I catch what he is saying. But it still doesn't explain all of the SHTF pretaining to firearms.

No I wasn't defending his point. I was trying to defend yours. Maby I got it all wrong though. I'll make it short and sweet. SHTF threads are pretty dumb IMO.

Pilot
November 20, 2005, 11:00 PM
Terorrism, oil shortages, natural disasters all make people uncertain. It calms one to order a couple thousand rounds of 5.45, 7.62 or 5.56. I know it helped me. :)

Waffen
November 20, 2005, 11:03 PM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.

sm
November 20, 2005, 11:19 PM
There is more to responsible firearm ownership - than firearms.-me

http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

Welcome to The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet, a standard set by the discussion board The Firing Line from 1998-2002

SHTF , Serious Situations, Be Prepared, Self Reliant, and other terms describe an Attitude, and Mindset that has always been around throughout history.

There has always been another take on dealing with Life's Journey's and the difficulties one may face. Dependency

The Internet is a facinating Medium. Communication is faster, and reaches Globally. For many, the Interaction with others in various regions of same Country, Allow them to learn and share how to deal with Life's Difficulties. WE do this on a Global Scale as well.

I, like many others grew up with firearms in the house, Baking Soda near the Stove for cooking fires, garden hose attached to exterior faucett in case of fires - especially if a lightening storm was going on. Later Fire extinguishers in the home, smoke alarms....

Tornados are popular in my area. Growing up we were raised Having Food, Water, Method to cook with, First aid supplies, lanterns flashights, batteries, ,...etc, just what one did.

I recall when the Cuban Missle Crisis happened - I was young, I remember all the extra precautions taken by adults. Communism was a concern. Preservation of Freedoms were Always a Concern - no matter what Gov't may pose a threat. Against all Enemies Foreign or Domestic...

TFL set the bar for ALL internet forums, THR sprung forth when TFL closed for a bit.

Training is stressed a LOT on TFL and THR. NOT all of which has to do with firearms.

Denny for instance used his TRAINING and Practiced Skills in a SHTF - to escape with his Grandson thru the blazing Hell that minutes before was his home. House Fire.
A firearm was not his tool for survival. His mindset and training were.

As seen in history, we today see more Gubmint is supposed to take care of me, I am trusting my Gubmint , Local Policeman, Local Fire Dept, Charity Organizations are SUPPOSED to save me / bail me out.

THR has STHF - "What Ifs", threads to share experience strength and hope for those Self Reliant, Self Responsible and Educate Lurkers, and hopefully by Attraction to what Lurkers read, Fence sitters will better understand firearms and Firearm Owners.

Regards,

Steve

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 12:29 AM
Why would it bother you if others are concerned about preparing for unforseen circumstances ans wish to discuss it with like-minded folks?

torpid
November 21, 2005, 12:38 AM
What's up with all of the SHTF threads?

I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here.

Wait... so all the anti-zombie threads are unremarkable to you?
;)

Seriously though, I think Katrina made people even more aware of the possibility of disaster scenarios popping up rather suddenly, and the discussions have taken off quite a bit since.
.

HI express
November 21, 2005, 12:40 AM
Hi krochus,
Been in the unarmed self-defense field for over 46 years now. Preparing the mind and body for real life is paramount to you to help you survive. The idea is to have the mind clear and not confuzzled when TSHTF. One of the ways to be prepared is practice, practice, practice. One of the practices is the mind exercises which we do in discussing SHTF scenarios.

In the gun culture, the condition to be in as discussed often in these forums is codition white. There are many examples of people being caught in different states of mind and still surviving confrontations but when your life is on the line and/or the ones that you care for, you want the edge to be on your side.

Join us, it is fun.

roscoe
November 21, 2005, 12:48 AM
I find them highly entertaining - you see a lot of people talking about how they are going to carry their 1911 with 200 rounds, plus their night-vision equipped AR with 500 rounds (77-grain Mk 262 only, of course), plus a Becker Combat 7, plus canned food for three weeks. Carrying a mere 200 lbs. of ammo and food, they will stalk lone-wolf style, with black face paint, taking out the gangs of mutants who will be naturally clad in black leather and hockey gear and sport mohawk haircuts.

Me, I worry what would happen if I were to run out of size 4 Huggies for my daughter. Then the S really does HTF. I stock up on ammo AND diapers! Anything else is secondary!

Spiggy
November 21, 2005, 04:28 AM
ICSH & HTF posts with zombie incursions could easily be a result of the recent rash of horror films featuring zombie incursions. (28 Days Later, George A Romero zombie flicks, Resident Evil, etc)

Unlikely scenarios but in case of natural disaster, it helps to have plans. It just so happens a lot of them include nightvision equipted AR-15's for some odd reason

71Commander
November 21, 2005, 05:06 AM
Unlikely scenarios but in case of natural disaster, it helps to have plans. It just so happens a lot of them include nightvision equipted AR-15's for some odd reason

Not me. I have an FAL.:neener:

bachman1961
November 21, 2005, 05:15 AM
krochus;
To me, I view the SHTF text as What if training. Often times the subject matter deals with a situation, real or hyped-up-thetical but some of the stories are very realisitc situations and I usually learn something or at least they get me thinking. It's not much different than me driving my car. I'm always thinking 'what if' in case a vehicle crosses the line.. ..what's my OUT ?? --- just trying to be prepared but not quite paranoid. When I see the SHTF in the text, I go to check it out. In your case, you may easily avoid those if they don't involve digestive tract experiences .. :)

By the way, few can compete with your fearlessness if you subsist on regular outings involving Gas Station Burritos.. .. your fear knows no bounds.

Firethorn
November 21, 2005, 08:14 AM
if you subsist on regular outings involving Gas Station Burritos.. .. your fear knows no bounds.

I'd say that he knows no fear.

As for the SHTF scenarios, well, they amount to planning scenarios. If everybody ascribed to the planning mentioned within, NO would have been no big deal.

A: People would have left
B: Built on higher ground
C: Had their own stocks of food, water and such, so that three days until aid arrives isn't a big deal. I mean, don't most families stock more or less for at least a week's worth of food?
D: Because this is a gun forum, have the means to resist looters/other criminals.

Much of the SHTF scenarios is pure wanking, but that's fun. :D
For the economically minded, there's all sorts of advice on how to prepare for emergencies/disasters on a budget.

Mixlesplick
November 21, 2005, 08:14 AM
When the millenium hit I stocked up on toilet paper and some extra water. I didn't expect the computers to all shut down but I knew if everything came to a standstill I did not want to run out of tp.;)

Be prepared.

benEzra
November 21, 2005, 08:19 AM
It's a fun intellectual exercise, mostly. But one that may occasionally have actual practical applications as well.

El Tejon
November 21, 2005, 08:21 AM
SHTF is a manifestation of the Peter Pan syndrome that permeates the gun culture. The hysterical handwringing over bears and pumas are also tied into the Peter Pan syndrome.

Playing dress up and slaying dragons is a welcome alternative to dealing with reality.:D

bogie
November 21, 2005, 08:38 AM
I knew if everything came to a standstill I did not want to run out of tp.;)

Uh... If everything comes to a standstill, you don't need to worry about TP...

I look at ammo as something that it's better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have.

Societal breakdown is a fact. Bureaucracy moves slowly, and in event of bad nastiness happening, we have to fend for ourselves. This is merely an updated facet of the survivalist movement that sprung up in the fifties/sixties...

6inch
November 21, 2005, 08:44 AM
I think it may be as simple as people feeling the need to have some control over the unknown, or the what if factor, brought on by 9/11/'01.

Just a thought.

Pilot
November 21, 2005, 09:35 AM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.


I don't understand the difference here. You always have a comfortable number of rounds on hand, yet want to preach about people who buy ammo to keep for an emergency.

I reload also and shoot my reloads and factory ammo regularly. I try to keep a number of rounds on hand for range work and/or an emergency. I really don't see a difference in my philosophy and yours except you have to attempt to degrade others for their habits.

Mongo the Mutterer
November 21, 2005, 09:40 AM
Terorrism, oil shortages, natural disasters all make people uncertain. It calms one to order a couple thousand rounds of 5.45, 7.62 or 5.56. I know it helped me. :)+1

magyvor
November 21, 2005, 10:29 AM
I have been a lurker for quite awhile, but wanted to reply with maybe a little different point of view.

Mostly what seems to be written in here is one extreme or the other. People say when SHTF they have thousands of rounds stocked up and numerous firearms, or others ridicule that and say people like that are scary.

For me, I realize the potential for disaster, and think I am fairly prepared. Little bit of food and water, first aid kit, flashlight and batteries, portable radio, and my XD9 with with a couple extra mags.

Do I think a Mad Max scenario is likely.....no. Do I think the Feds are gonna come take my gun......no. What I do think may happen is that some people out there try and take advantage of others during a crisis, so I am ready to let them know I will not be a victim.

So to those out there who are ready with enough guns and bullets to arm their entire neighborhood, I thank you.......your the ones keepin people on their toes :)

To those out there who think your safe and someone in a uniform will take care of you in an emergency.....wake up and realize you may have to fend for yourself.

Just a thought or 2 from my point of view.....thanks for noticing me :rolleyes:

AnthonyRSS
November 21, 2005, 10:59 AM
Once again, Steve said it best.

Our country's socialism programs all but killed self-reliance.

CoachVince
November 21, 2005, 11:00 AM
What I do think may happen is that some people out there try and take advantage of others during a crisis, so I am ready to let them know I will not be a victim.
So to those out there who are ready with enough guns and bullets to arm their entire neighborhood, I thank you.......your the ones keepin people on their toes :)
To those out there who think your safe and someone in a uniform will take care of you in an emergency.....wake up and realize you may have to fend for yourself.

I joined this forum pretty recently, partially for SHTF content, and because I had feeling similar to those quoted above, and I grew up trying to follow the motto "Be Prepared".
I am not stocking up on ammo (I live in NJ, and am still working towards getting the papers so I can legally BUY ammo), nor am I buying guns (I'm comfortable with the "legacy" left by my father-in-law, who was in the service and also was a police officer for many years). I guess my interest comes from hiking, Boy Scouts, and being caretaker of a small property (all in the past). The zombie movies, etc, are all ways to try to think of the unexpected; i.e. what else COULD happen that I never would have thought of. Thinking a head, planning ahead, and imaginary ( if impossible) scenarios all can help a person "Be Prepared". I haven't yet seen the recent War of the Worlds remake, but it and the recent zombie flicks could be "convincers" for people who haven't prepared for disasters. Many people haven't ever thought about the consequences of deciding to help a "FEW" people in a time of need, and in New Orleans, many were overwhelmed when they tried. I live in NJ, and I saw the flood of people coming across the bridge from NYC on 9/11. Nearly everyone in the nation saw images of storms hitting the South recently. Earthquakes seem to be hitting somewhere almost every other day.

It is better to be prepared, and never need the preparations, than otherwise. And preparation isn't all material, a good bit is mental. And if people can't get materially prepared fast enough when they decide to become prepared (money or storage issues, etc.), they may focus on what they can do at the moment; prepare mentally. And a lot of that is considering your (and others') reactions to various situations. So, they hit the internet, looking for any group of reasonably well-informed people. And guess what guys- it's you!
I'm glad I found this forum, and despite not signing up specifically because you promote responsible gun ownership, I'm here because I value the opinion and feedback of responsible gun owners who support the constitution.

But, truly, do I think the fine details of FMJ vs whatever matter when the SHTF? No. Use the gun you know, with the ammo you have. But, in accordance with THR's philosophy, use it responsibly. And keep a knife or axe handy; that comet could make gunpowder stop working :)

DunedinDragon
November 21, 2005, 11:22 AM
Okay...new member here, but I just HAD to join to throw in my $.02 on this thread.

I have to agree that there's a fine line for some gun owners between "being prepared", and paranoia. I see a lot of SHTF'ers over on ar15.com, but most of that is related to zombie killing, which we ALL know is a real possibility in this day and age.

But to help those who can't help themselves, I've compiled my list of...

"You may be a chronic SHTF'er if..."

You spent last weekend replacing your underground sprinkling system with a set of land mines.

The UPS guy delivered your last order of ammo using a fork lift.

The last thing your (now) ex-wife said to you was, "It's either me or your cache of weapons.."

You're a lawyer and you wear a tie and sport jacket to work over your BDU's

You're an advocate for gun control on anything smaller than a .50 caliber.

You like to practice racking the slide on your gun with your teeth

You watch "Night of the Living Dead" in order to develop your household defense plan.

.........
I'm sure there are others...feel free to add....

R.H. Lee
November 21, 2005, 11:25 AM
Harmless fun, cheaper than golfing, and time better spent than watching some ballgame.

FlaMike
November 21, 2005, 11:50 AM
I am mostly a lurker on this forum, not a frequent poster but I have a question regarding the "zombies". I have also been seeing a lot of the SHTF threads on this site, but mostly on other forums and always thought the above mentioned "zombies" the memebers were referring to was a catch-all phrase for the Bad Guy, home invader, criminal, ect. maybe with a little sense of humor thrown in. After reading this thread, I'm not sure. Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

Mike
Lake Mary, FL

RonJon
November 21, 2005, 11:54 AM
...what if the SHTF form is of a pandemic of bird flu virus or something similar?

I have a fair cache of guns & ammo, but am at a loss as to what help they would be in the above event?

What preparations would be of any value for that possibility?

What would your guns do for you if a super volcano let loose in Yellowstone, covering the country with suffocating pyroplastic?

How about a large asteroid hit?

My point is that guns have a place in preparation, but don't count on them to save you and yours from EVERY possible event.:eek:

Daniel T
November 21, 2005, 12:22 PM
Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

Sure, but it's meant as a joke. You get get some pretty funny threads about tactics re: fast zombies vs. slow zombies, or head-shot required zombies vs. never-dying zombies. All in fun.

craig
November 21, 2005, 12:26 PM
this is only a test

12-34hom
November 21, 2005, 12:27 PM
SHTF is a manifestation of the Peter Pan syndrome that permeates the gun culture.The hysterical handwringing over bears and pumas are also tied to the Peter Pan syndrome

People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole propose of anticipating a government collapse, flat out scare me

+1

12-34hom.

dasmi
November 21, 2005, 12:30 PM
Because everyone can feel something coming.
No one knows what it will be, or when, but we can feel it.

DunedinDragon
November 21, 2005, 12:38 PM
Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?


Are you meaning to tell me you DON'T have any zombies in Lake Mary, FL????

CoachVince
November 21, 2005, 12:53 PM
...what if the SHTF form is of a pandemic of bird flu virus or something similar?
I have a fair cache of guns & ammo, but am at a loss as to what help they would be in the above event?
Quick summary-
You are not infected with the bird flu. Others may be, but not know it yet. Your area (town/county/state) has been in quarantine for two weeks (this is QUITE possible).
A person knocks on the door, looking for shelter; they . They look infected, and don't want to go away. They have an axe, baseball bat, or crowbar, and are willing to break in if they need to, just so they can get to some shelter and food.
Your life, and your family's life, may be at risk if you let this person in.

OK, now imagine thirty people knocking on your door. Or everyone from the next town over, where the bird flu has been followed by massive death, decay, and disease.

Count on the gov't to help? Police, Nat'l Guard, etc.? You are not guaranteed protection. This can apply to anyone who is somewhat prepared, with unprepared or malicious people around.

Quote:What would your guns do for you if a super volcano let loose in Yellowstone, covering the country with suffocating pyroplastic?
How about a large asteroid hit?
End Quote
Try reading Lucifer's Hammer for the asteroid reference.
Volcano? OK if it covers the whole country, maybe a gun would be useless. Although, if you had a plane or fast boat, maybe it worthwhile to get out of Dodge. If so, someone else will want your boat, and will be willing to kill you for it.

I see the ownership of a gun as a means to protect yourself and your family from threats. Those threats will persist even if (and, probably, ESPECIALLY IF) the SHTF.
If mankind is alive, and no biblical prophecies are being or have been fulfilled, then there will be a need for good men to stand against bad men. Your guns will have use.

torpid
November 21, 2005, 01:03 PM
SHTF is a manifestation of the Peter Pan syndrome that permeates the gun culture. The hysterical handwringing over bears and pumas are also tied into the Peter Pan syndrome.

That raises a question I never considered before.
What caliber gun is the best choice for Peter Pan to use against bears?



FlaMike-
I am mostly a lurker on this forum, not a frequent poster but I have a question regarding the "zombies". I have also been seeing a lot of the SHTF threads on this site, but mostly on other forums and always thought the above mentioned "zombies" the memebers were referring to was a catch-all phrase for the Bad Guy, home invader, criminal, ect. maybe with a little sense of humor thrown in. After reading this thread, I'm not sure. Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

No, no hidden meanings, yes we mean "real" zombies, and no, we aren't crazy- it is purely joking around for fun.
(unless... zombies are real!)

:uhoh:

CoachVince
November 21, 2005, 01:06 PM
That raises a question I never considered before.
What caliber gun is the best choice for Peter Pan to use against bears?
What altitude is Peter flying at, and can he hover in place well?

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 01:09 PM
What caliber gun is the best choice for Peter Pan to use against bears?

The heck with that, what caliber for Peter Pan? I trust the bears more than I trust that sissy. :evil:

thereisnospoon
November 21, 2005, 02:09 PM
SHTF is a manifestation of the Peter Pan syndrome that permeates the gun culture. The hysterical handwringing over bears and pumas are also tied into the Peter Pan syndrome.

Playing dress up and slaying dragons is a welcome alternative to dealing with reality.

I resemble that comment...


Bang-A-Rang!!!:neener:

Cosmoline
November 21, 2005, 02:38 PM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.

People who refuse to prepare for the inevitable disaster flat out scare me, because they become more dangerous than any zombie when the trouble starts.

If your rear end has lived its whole life with indoor plumbing, heat and power on demand, police protection and all the wonderful benefits of modern civilization it's easy to believe these things will go on forever. Those of us who live closer to the edge know better. At any moment we're one nine pointer away from being cut off from supplies, power, running water, heat, food and state protection for a month or more. If you don't prepare you'd best be ready to freeze to death.

Cosmoline
November 21, 2005, 02:44 PM
SHTF is a manifestation of the Peter Pan syndrome that permeates the gun culture. The hysterical handwringing over bears and pumas are also tied into the Peter Pan syndrome.

Yeah, the bears really want to roll around and play. They're big fuzzy creatures and I've been insulting them by yellling at them and pointing rifles at them! The next time I see one I'll make a point of calling him "Big Tummy Tum" and go up and try to rub his belly just like Treadwell.

Jhorn
November 21, 2005, 02:55 PM
I don't have cable so reading the SHTF threads are great entertainment for me...please don't stop! I think you can take anything too serious. IMO..

sm
November 21, 2005, 03:09 PM
Yes we have bears in my state.

I "learnt" about bears on my B-day. I think I had turned 5. Facinating Critters, they do not like their young messed with, "if momma ain't happy" and "don't mess with my young 'uns" - apply to da bears. They do not like hot dogs it seems, I tossed the remains of one found on the ground, Momma bear did not like this. Daddy bear got a bit upset too, he came barreling out to what all the rukus was ...cork ammo is not ample to make a bear turn.

I get older, canoeing , and a bear can run really fast, and do quite well in water. Forget 'J stroke' just get some distance fast!

Also saw what happens when a bear really really wants into a shed where food is kept out camping. I have mentioned my fondness for 12 ga slugs and all - correct? . Me? I was atop the Surburban...you do your 'riding shotgun" your way, I was doing it this way for this situation. I told them not to put food in that there shed...

Not too long ago:
1) da bears were in town checking out trash cans. Local Police " whaddya call us for?" they asked of that neighborhood. Game and Fish came out with tranquilizer dart guns.
2) I was headed just down the street about to take the freeway exit. Da bears were so cute, waving at folks, appreciative of donuts and burgers being tossed at 'em. Two cubs fighting over a corn dog...Momma fussing at 'em to share...

I didn't need my Canoe, my lever action cork gun, not even my CCW. I just waved, and took my exit.

da cubs...so cute!

Carl N. Brown
November 21, 2005, 03:39 PM
OK, so tin foil helmets protect your mind from control by
UFO Grays while you battle the mutant ninja zombie bears
while evacuating from the city after the stuff hit the fan.
Gentlemen, we have forgotten the DeRos of Lost Lemuria!
When the people of Lemuria died out eons ago, their
deranged robots lived on in tunnels under the earth, to
telepathicly control humans by thought waves directed at
the base of our spines: we should also be wearing tinfoil
Depends or at least tinfoil pantyliners. And how do you
shoot deranged robots in tunnels under your feet? That's
a worse SHTF scenario than Zombies!

I credit the 1950s Civil Defense drills and the 1950s
"Tomorrow we liberate Cleveland" school of sci-fi for a lot of the
interest in SHTF scenarios. I credit guvmint Civil Defense with
creating the survivalist movement. Most THR SHTF is just in fun:
"What's the best gun for George Romero Zombies?"

My "bug out bag" is really intended to keep me fed,
warm and protected if my car breaks down and I have
to spend a night on the mountain. Being prepared for a
true civil defense situation (temporary social break
down, natural disaster, you are on your own) does not hurt.
Keep at least five days of food and water stockpiled, keep your
car gas tank over half full at all times, have a first aid kit,
secure your home against break in, if armed for self defense
be prepared and think out the consequences. People who
were prepared for SHTF in the Gulf Coast faired better
than those who were not.

(I am still looking for a replacement copy of CM Kornbluth's
Not This August, a real SHTF novel.)

USSR
November 21, 2005, 03:50 PM
I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here. The only SHTF I'm seriously worried about is the kind that involves a gas station burrito a lack of TP coupled with a malfunctioning celing fan.:what:

Glad you asked the question I've been dying to ask. Near as I can figure out, most of the SHTF posts are from those of the armchair warrior type. You just don't seem to see very many competitive shooters, LE's, or military guys joining in this activity. I think the SHTFers are too busy contemplating the ideal firearms for a mythical situation to actually go out and target shoot. Well, I suppose the tin foil hat crowd has to go somewhere.:D

Don

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 04:43 PM
To all you gun owners that like to make fun of those of us that engage in discussions about preparations for the worst and store small quantities of ammunition and arms:

When you see us talking about defending our lives from marauders or attackers in a case of civil unrest, disaster or societal collapse, who do you think we're talking about?

Well, asside from terrorists/invaders, zombies, giant bugs, aliens and the government, we're talking about YOU.


Yes, that's right. Try to ignore the jokes about the zombies and bugs and realize that I am VERY serious here.


Those of you that have firearms and the knowledge to use them that don't have some MRE's or canned goods and water stored as well as evacuation routes and alternate plans based on plausible disaster scenarios put others at risk because of your lazines and blissninnie attitude. What are you gonna do, let your wife and kids die of starvation because you didn't prepare for the situation you find yourself in, or will you go hunting? In some areas, the only hunting you can do consists of what's over in Joe Neighbor's house and convincing him to give it to you, or forcing him to.

I don't know anyone, no matter if the situation is their fault or not, that would let their family members or children die if they had the means to prevent it, no matter what those means were and what using them meant committing themselves to.

I'll say it again, gun owners in condition white that do not take certain aspects seriously (firearms politics and rights, disaster preparations) are MY biggest concern.

The fact that you all think you have the maturity to be responsible enough to own a firearm but mock others for being more responsible than you are for their own safety and thus the safety of others, albeit in an unlikely scenarios, astounds me.

Unprepared gun owners, just like every other person who is not prepared, will turn into welfare-entitlement whores when the food and water are gone and Billy Jr. and little Sally are dehydrating and starving...only the entitlements will to whatever someone else has because they were better prepared or more fortunate but are not sharing, the checks will be cashed at will and will be written on shell casings, signed in someone else's blood.

But nah, can't happen here, right? :rolleyes:

It's not the guy that gets over eccentric about preparing for disaster and has 20,000 rounds of ammo, 15 rifles and 22 escape routes with 200lbs of gear that worries me, it's the guy with no preparations (mentally or materially) that finds himself and his family stuck in a bad situation with nowhere to go and nothing to lose that I worry about. In dire circumstances, even the most civilized and honorable of human beings are capable of every vile and vicious act known to man (rape, murder, cannibalism, incest, theft, torture etc...), one would do well to remember that.

You do what you want, donít worry, we think youíre just as foolish as you think we are.

Cosmoline
November 21, 2005, 04:44 PM
Glad you asked the question I've been dying to ask. Near as I can figure out, most of the SHTF posts are from those of the armchair warrior type. You just don't seem to see very many competitive shooters, LE's, or military guys joining in this activity. I think the SHTFers are too busy contemplating the ideal firearms for a mythical situation to actually go out and target shoot. Well, I suppose the tin foil hat crowd has to go somewhere.:D

Don

What was I thinking. You're right of course. It can't happen here.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/118/2754/320/New%20Orleans,%20Convention%20Center.jpg

http://www.aaba-bay.com/uploads/aaba/LA%20riots.jpg

http://www.apfc.org/iceimages/library/AH__P072.jpg

http://www.geo.mtu.edu/UPSeis/subside.gif

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/ash/images/mshslideset6_med.jpg

R.W.Dale
November 21, 2005, 04:51 PM
Come on guys you,ve gotta admit there is a huge diffrence between being prepaired and posting gratuitious threads on weither or not the Black helocopter undead ninja types will take you more seiously if you're armed with a AK or an AR.

Cosmoline
November 21, 2005, 04:53 PM
I don't know about ninjas, but it's perfectly reasonable to wonder what kinds of firearms should be in your kit, and what you should plan to have handy if the SHTF.

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 05:06 PM
Come on guys you,ve gotta admit there is a huge diffrence between being prepaired and posting gratuitious threads on weither or not the Black helocopter undead ninja types will take you more seiously if you're armed with a AK or an AR.

If you can quote a member here seriously saying exactly that, I will eat one of my socks.


weither or not the Black helocopter undead ninja types will take you more seiously if you're armed with a AK or an AR.

Source that please, otherwise your latest point is moot.

R.W.Dale
November 21, 2005, 05:21 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166581
Plenty of nuttiness to go round,http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/tinfoil_hat.gif I especally like the part about a glock not being well suited for STHF bucause it could get melted LOL

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=161937

Didn't even have to use the search engine.

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 05:45 PM
Plenty of nuttiness to go round, I especally like the part about a glock not being well suited for STHF bucause it could get melted LOL


ONE person said that, and was met with many others educating the poor lad on the fallacy of his argument. But there is a valid point there to consider. House or automobile fire, it's a possiblity in a disaster. So one would need to weigh in on the pros and cons of the issue. I see nothing nutty in that thread. Quote the posts and the thread where this nuttiness occurs please. Don't make me re-read a thread I have already read when there was nothing in there.


And I found nothing nutty in that second thread, care to quote it and point it out for me? maybe you saw something I did not...

sm
November 21, 2005, 05:48 PM
I'll say it again, gun owners in condition white that do not take certain aspects seriously (firearms politics and rights, disaster preparations) are MY biggest concern.

The fact that you all think you have the maturity to be responsible enough to own a firearm but mock others for being more responsible than you are for their own safety and thus the safety of others, albeit in an unlikely scenarios, astounds me.

Agree!

I am 50 y/o and brought as many were in my era.

I was not even a teenager when during Riots breaking out all over city, our front door was being brick- batted in. I have shared this before. I am the eldest kid, in my care were 3 younger kids. Mom had to attend to a situation in regard to this 'crisis'.

I stopped an immediate threat , using my handgun. I continued to handle the situation until "matters" let up for neighbors to assist and Mom could gain access to our neighborhood.

I had to secure a front door - better - anything not knowing if another "wave" of folks would try access again.

Sibs cried, scared as they should be, still safe and secure.

NO 911 back in them days, no time to get a neighbor, they were kind of busy...
Just how raised - what one does.

---

What do you do when a 18 wheeler has jacknifed in the oncoming lane, divided by a concrete wall, and one of his tires is now in your lane? I would call that a SHTF situation? You use what you learned in defensive driving Then you render aid to the occupants whom in a Nissan met tire head on at 55 mph, until EMTs arrive. Thier reaction/ reply? "We just froze and let it hit us".

--
In another life, and the nature of that work...
I literally ran down 10 flights of stairs, and with UC officers watching my six, hauled butt out of a hotel, hotel parking lot, and ended up totaling a Rental Car with less than 500 miles on it. Then I did my best broken field running in leather soled shoes...
I left - immediatly, room not in my name ( as was the SOP) and later my belongings retreived, but I was long gone. I made my report to officers, and my 'boss' took care of the rental car being totaled. Permission to leave ( "we got it covered - now leave!")strongly suggested I get somewhere safe...I left.

--
Bump and run is not new, nor is being nailed from the rear, or trying to run off the freeway with 75 mph speed limit. BTDT and had the .357 'barking' intentions of the shooter at me.

--
Kids, kids being kids in a rural area, and a pack of rabid dogs enter property. Carrying concealed on one's property , or visiting folks comes in handy.

--Open your front door to enter your abode and find yourself looking at the muzzle of a .357. No time to wonder how they bypassed your alarms, no time to think about the shotgun IN the house loaded up and ready to go in its hidey hole...that hammer is back and he has yelled his intentions - BTDT.

--Be inside your abode, minding your own business, and have 1) the neighbor yell for help and her son is breaking in wit help of two other guys - armed. 2) answer the door and you did NOT order a pizza and them are not Pizza guys in logo'd shirts, 3) hear your neighbor scream through her apt wall and her shower is running and she "gets away" and makes it to your front door with only a towel, and the former guy that used to do some maintence is the one running away...BTDT

One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam

Some of these things we discuss are not make- believe. Some folks have seen elephants, some elephants are bigger than others.

Personal Responsiblity - that is what it is.

Always been arm chair commandos, always will be. Cannot worry about them. WE can share experience strength and hope with folks wanting to listen and learn tho'.

Like they used say - Screw 'em, feed 'em fish heads and rice.

magsnubby
November 21, 2005, 05:54 PM
To all you gun owners that like to make fun of those of us that engage in discussions about preparations for the worst and store small quantities of ammunition and arms:

When you see us talking about defending our lives from marauders or attackers in a case of civil unrest, disaster or societal collapse, who do you think we're talking about?

Well, asside from terrorists/invaders, zombies, giant bugs, aliens and the government, we're talking about YOU.


Yes, that's right. Try to ignore the jokes about the zombies and bugs and realize that I am VERY serious here.


Those of you that have firearms and the knowledge to use them that don't have some MRE's or canned goods and water stored as well as evacuation routes and alternate plans based on plausible disaster scenarios put others at risk because of your lazines and blissninnie attitude. What are you gonna do, let your wife and kids die of starvation because you didn't prepare for the situation you find yourself in, or will you go hunting? In some areas, the only hunting you can do consists of what's over in Joe Neighbor's house and convincing him to give it to you, or forcing him to.

I don't know anyone, no matter if the situation is their fault or not, that would let their family members or children die if they had the means to prevent it, no matter what those means were and what using them meant committing themselves to.

I'll say it again, gun owners in condition white that do not take certain aspects seriously (firearms politics and rights, disaster preparations) are MY biggest concern.

The fact that you all think you have the maturity to be responsible enough to own a firearm but mock others for being more responsible than you are for their own safety and thus the safety of others, albeit in an unlikely scenarios, astounds me.

Unprepared gun owners, just like every other person who is not prepared, will turn into welfare-entitlement whores when the food and water are gone and Billy Jr. and little Sally are dehydrating and starving...only the entitlements will to whatever someone else has because they were better prepared or more fortunate but are not sharing, the checks will be cashed at will and will be written on shell casings, signed in someone else's blood.

But nah, can't happen here, right? :rolleyes:

It's not the guy that gets over eccentric about preparing for disaster and has 20,000 rounds of ammo, 15 rifles and 22 escape routes with 200lbs of gear that worries me, it's the guy with no preparations (mentally or materially) that finds himself and his family stuck in a bad situation with nowhere to go and nothing to lose that I worry about. In dire circumstances, even the most civilized and honorable of human beings are capable of every vile and vicious act known to man (rape, murder, cannibalism, incest, theft, torture etc...), one would do well to remember that.

You do what you want, donít worry, we think youíre just as foolish as you think we are.

I think it all goes back to the "can't happen to me" attitude.

Like the man said "I'ld rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

Jmurman
November 21, 2005, 07:08 PM
I think it all goes back to the "can't happen to me" attitude.

Like the man said "I'ld rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

truely spoken.

NineseveN
November 21, 2005, 07:50 PM
Wow, sm, thank you for sharing those accounts. Was a very interesting read. Glad you made it there and back again enough to do it a few more times. Peace. :)

I'm not quite 50 years old, hell, I'm a little over half that, but I grew up where I did when I did during the things that went on then and there, and I learned a lot from it all.

Farnham
November 21, 2005, 07:54 PM
I am mostly a lurker on this forum, not a frequent poster but I have a question regarding the "zombies". I have also been seeing a lot of the SHTF threads on this site, but mostly on other forums and always thought the above mentioned "zombies" the memebers were referring to was a catch-all phrase for the Bad Guy, home invader, criminal, ect. maybe with a little sense of humor thrown in. After reading this thread, I'm not sure. Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

Mike
Lake Mary, FL

Home invaders?? Criminals?? HA!! Damn right I'm referring to zombies! You mean you haven't seen 'em?? :scrutiny:

S/F

Farnham

PS: Anyone seen my medication? :uhoh:

zapplez
November 21, 2005, 08:56 PM
To all you gun owners that like to make fun of those of us that engage in discussions about preparations for the worst and store small quantities of ammunition and arms:

When you see us talking about defending our lives from marauders or attackers in a case of civil unrest, disaster or societal collapse, who do you think we're talking about?

Well, asside from terrorists/invaders, zombies, giant bugs, aliens and the government, we're talking about YOU.


Yes, that's right. Try to ignore the jokes about the zombies and bugs and realize that I am VERY serious here.


Those of you that have firearms and the knowledge to use them that don't have some MRE's or canned goods and water stored as well as evacuation routes and alternate plans based on plausible disaster scenarios put others at risk because of your lazines and blissninnie attitude. What are you gonna do, let your wife and kids die of starvation because you didn't prepare for the situation you find yourself in, or will you go hunting? In some areas, the only hunting you can do consists of what's over in Joe Neighbor's house and convincing him to give it to you, or forcing him to.

I don't know anyone, no matter if the situation is their fault or not, that would let their family members or children die if they had the means to prevent it, no matter what those means were and what using them meant committing themselves to.

I'll say it again, gun owners in condition white that do not take certain aspects seriously (firearms politics and rights, disaster preparations) are MY biggest concern.

The fact that you all think you have the maturity to be responsible enough to own a firearm but mock others for being more responsible than you are for their own safety and thus the safety of others, albeit in an unlikely scenarios, astounds me.

Unprepared gun owners, just like every other person who is not prepared, will turn into welfare-entitlement whores when the food and water are gone and Billy Jr. and little Sally are dehydrating and starving...only the entitlements will to whatever someone else has because they were better prepared or more fortunate but are not sharing, the checks will be cashed at will and will be written on shell casings, signed in someone else's blood.

But nah, can't happen here, right? :rolleyes:

It's not the guy that gets over eccentric about preparing for disaster and has 20,000 rounds of ammo, 15 rifles and 22 escape routes with 200lbs of gear that worries me, it's the guy with no preparations (mentally or materially) that finds himself and his family stuck in a bad situation with nowhere to go and nothing to lose that I worry about. In dire circumstances, even the most civilized and honorable of human beings are capable of every vile and vicious act known to man (rape, murder, cannibalism, incest, theft, torture etc...), one would do well to remember that.

You do what you want, donít worry, we think youíre just as foolish as you think we are.

+1

My setiments exactly

ezypikns
November 21, 2005, 09:22 PM
Sometimes maybe we shouldn't vocalize every thing we're thinking. Let the voices stay inside your heads.

MechAg94
November 21, 2005, 09:43 PM
Hell, my SHTF scenario is hurricane preparation. Do I need a lot of firearms and ammo for that? No. Just a gun I can trust and a reasonable amount of ammo. I have more guns and more ammo because I like shooting and I will shoot up that ammo eventually anyway. It is cheaper to buy in bulk.

I have more supplies now than I did before August, but I still need to get some extra food and some water containers. All in due time. No big deal, just reasonable preparations.

Other than that, when I was a kid, people talked about the Russians attacking. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, that appeared to be a real risk. The movie Red Dawn opened up some neat discussions. Did we change our lives because of that? No. Just something to think about and say "What would I do if this happened?" The current discussions are more of the same. We prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

Kodiaz
November 21, 2005, 10:02 PM
My SHTF scenario is a hurricane too. I have a gun I can trust (Rem. 11-87)and a pistol too. Afetr Katrina I want a gun I can trust in my Aunt's hand my cousin's hand and my aunt's husbands hands. After Wilma I can GAURANTEE you that in Palm Beach County Fl after a real hurricane the S will hit the fan.


After Wilma 4 days no power I left the grocery store and got hassled by a bunch of punks.

After Wilma 5 days no power a car pulled up to my aunt's house and asked us if we had food.

The police chased some guys through the back yard that were trying to steal a generator.


This is in a "good" part of Palm Beach county after a storm that was more an inconvenience than a disaster so what is going to happen when thousands of people lose their homes in a real hurricane.

USSR
November 22, 2005, 07:25 AM
Sometimes maybe we shouldn't vocalize every thing we're thinking. Let the voices stay inside your heads.

+1.

Don

f4t9r
November 22, 2005, 09:47 PM
Why would it bother you if others are concerned about preparing for unforseen circumstances ans wish to discuss it with like-minded folks?

Right on !!!!!!!!!!!!!

bogie
November 22, 2005, 10:26 PM
I have also been seeing a lot of the SHTF threads on this site, but mostly on other forums and always thought the above mentioned "zombies" the memebers were referring to was a catch-all phrase for the Bad Guy, home invader, criminal, ect. maybe with a little sense of humor thrown in. After reading this thread, I'm not sure. Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

Dude, with about $5K in my home theater stuff, I have to admit that I'm a George Romero fan...

And I'm ready for the Walking Dead... :D

wingnutx
November 22, 2005, 10:28 PM
Glad you asked the question I've been dying to ask. Near as I can figure out, most of the SHTF posts are from those of the armchair warrior type. You just don't seem to see very many competitive shooters, LE's, or military guys joining in this activity. Don


I'm a military type and an EMT, and I like the SHTF threads.

Some are silly, some are very thoughtful. Zombie threads are good clean fun.

KriegHund
November 22, 2005, 10:30 PM
I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here. The only SHTF I'm seriously worried about is the kind that involves a gas station burrito a lack of TP coupled with a malfunctioning celing fan.:what:

They are fun and they can happen...right? RIGHT?

Seriously though.

PaulBk
November 22, 2005, 10:39 PM
It is a combination of the recent jump in natural disasters and the failure of 'authorities' to remedy subsequent problems (intentional understatement).

I think many more people are starting to understand that they really might be on their own for a few days. Out here in the country a generator is just another household tool and roads can be iffy, so a week's worth of food/water/etc. is customary. We have gone without electricity for up to 6 days in the last few winters, when snow and ice made any travel problematic.

Stockpiling for months is overkill for me, but each of us find our own comfort level.

-PB

NineseveN
November 22, 2005, 10:56 PM
Just a side note, I rally hate when I commit a typo but the line is good enough for someone to quote it. Really detracts from my genius. :o

Fletchette
November 22, 2005, 11:49 PM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.

Read my sig line.

BOO!:eek:

meef
November 23, 2005, 01:18 AM
I am mostly a lurker on this forum, not a frequent poster but I have a question regarding the "zombies". I have also been seeing a lot of the SHTF threads on this site, but mostly on other forums and always thought the above mentioned "zombies" the memebers were referring to was a catch-all phrase for the Bad Guy, home invader, criminal, ect. maybe with a little sense of humor thrown in. After reading this thread, I'm not sure. Are you meaning to tell me the thread posters are LITERALLY referring to zombies?

Mike
Lake Mary, FL
Well..... yes, of course.

What's more, it would behoove everyone here to read "The Zombie Survial Guide - Complete Protection From the Living Dead" by Max Brooks.

It's got literally everything you need to know. Highly useful piece of writing.

Travis McGee
November 23, 2005, 01:37 AM
Nineseven: right on brother. You said it for me.

For those smug mockers who think life will just go on and on in a nice linear fashion in the USA, for the rest of their lives, here are two links I think you should read through.

The first is a nice short analysis of how a mutated bird flu pandemic (on the scale of the 1918 Spanish Flu) could very well trigger a global economic depression. The experts say, "Not if, but WHEN."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/10/22/ccflu22.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2005/10/22/ixcoms.html

The second link is to an amazing "first hand SHTF view" thread, by an Argentinean who has lived through the economic collapse there since 2001. When depression economy conditions hit, and folks are HUNGRY, crime will skyrocket. When the most poor hear their children crying from hunger, they will go looking for food and money where ever it can be found. PLEASE do yourself a favor, and read this thread! If you have the attitude, "Oh, an economic collapse could NEVER happen in the USA...." then forget it. But don't come crying if it does. (It will be too bad for your kids though, that dad was so narrowminded, shortsighted, cocky and foolish.)

You have to register at Frugal Squirrels (free, one minute) to read this thread, but I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that you read it and all of the replies. The author has added some additional sections down thread you will want to read also.

Navigate to Frugal's Forums, General Patriot Discussion, and the "stickied" thread called "Thoughts on Urban Survival." Thread author FerFAL.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=044387

Fletchette
November 23, 2005, 01:49 AM
Remember the 1984 Winter Olympics in Sarejevo? Remember how all the talking heads gushed and said that the city and people were so sophisticated and educated. They were cosmopolitan, even if they were a Communist nation. We were told they were "just like us".

What if they were right?

Nematocyst
November 23, 2005, 02:25 AM
Steve (SM), NineseveN, Travis, Mongo, Pilot, Fletchette & Cosmo ...

Yeah, what they said.

More to come, but I'm going to eat dinner first.

Nem

NineseveN
November 23, 2005, 02:32 AM
More to come, but I'm going to eat dinner first.

Did you make enough to share with the rest of the class? :neener:

Nematocyst
November 23, 2005, 04:03 AM
Did you make enough to share with the rest of the class? :neener: Ooooh, darn. If you'd only spoken earlier...

Fantastic dinner: tacos grande al pastor with lime & green chile salsa with a side of refried beans, scored earlier today from a new Mexican bistro, then heated up for dindin.

Sooo sorry. :D
_______

Now, about this SHTF issue.

Here's my take on it. In the spirit of SM, it's long. No offense taken if you skip this post. If you're going to read it, get a fill up on your coffee or another beer now.

1) Like someone else wrote, I've always been a 'be prepared' kind of guy. Boy scout? No. I quit the cub scouts and never went further. (My den mother was a total b***h.)

But in my 20's, I became a backpacker, then a mountaineer. In the high country of Colorado & New Mexico (above 11000'), I learned the meaning of SHTF: when you don't expect the weather that you get hit with, when the backpacking stove quits, when it's nearly too wet to build a fire to cook on, let alone keep warm, and it's two days walk out, you'd darned well better be prepared. Otherwise, hypothermia sets in, and you're an ice cube.

More recently, I led trips into the mountains in the Pac NW for students. In the directions for the trip, I clearly specified, "no cotton clothing, rain gear required".

An older student - retired physician - showed up. No rain gear, cotton sweat shirt. So, I decided to let him stay. (Normally I kick such unprepared people out of camp, but in this case...). That night, we were hit by a ferocious August storm that lasted 4 days: heavy winds; temps dropped 30 degrees from a balmy 70 to a cold, wet 40 (that's day time). He learned his lesson the hard way.

2) I always find it sadly hilarious that people who have grown up in the US during stable political, economic times (1945 - 2005) think that nothing could ever happen here that would disrupt that peaceful comfort that we've experienced during those 60 years. It's all good. Minor bumps along the way, but all is good, cause uncle sam, along with the local LEO's gonna take care of us. Help is just a 911 call away. If times get hard, there's always welfare. If times get really hard, and my house is destroyed by (choose one or more) hurricane, tornado, earthquake, terrorist bomb, then FEMA will come to my rescue. No problemo.

What short memories humans have. May I remind you: revolutionary war beginning circa 1776; civil war; WWI (accompanied by that nasty virus outbreak); the great depression (imagine such a thing now, in THIS culture, characterized by MUCH more violence than then).

3) I'm an ecologist (with a BS, 2 MS, & a Ph.D.). I'm NOT an environmentalist, but an ecologist. I understand better than most of you that no species, including our own, can continue to increase its numbers indefinitely without crossing a critical threshold of resources to sustain it, after which its population 'crashes'. The crash is not smooth, gradual and predictable, but fast & unpredictable. That's why it's called 'CRASH'.

Our numbers - globally speaking - continue to grow exponentially. We are doubling about every 40 years since the early 1900's. In the 1910's, the global population of humans was ~1.25 billion. By 1950, when I was born, we were at 2.5 billion. In 1990, we crossed 5 billion. Now, we're at 6 billion plus. We're heading exponentially towards 10 billion.

We've got agriculture going in every piece of arable land on the planet. We've got approximately 50-70 days of grain (wheat, corn, rice... which feeds the humans on the planet, regardless of whether you're vegan or eat steak twice a day) in the "pipeline". {Translation: if agriculture shut down tomorrow, you've got that many days of grain to feed the planet.}

We're near capacity. Without another agricultural 'green revolution' such as occured in the 1950's, our grain supply will NOT keep up with population numbers.

4) I teach systems sciences. The mathematics of systems sciences is known as 'nonlinear dynamics'. The sciences of the last 300 years has been based on 'linear dynamics'. Newton's laws of motion - the foundation of modern science - are based on linear equations, which are well-behaved, predictable, with smooth transitions.

Non-linear dynamics, which are far, far, far more reasonable representations of nature, are ill-behaved, unpredictable, with sharp, unpredictable, often catestrophic transitions (AKA phase transitions). Metal girders don't slowly, predictably bend in half, they "SNAP". Iron doesn't gradually become magnetic below 1044*K, it sharply becomes magnetic. Pandemics don't spread gradually, they spread rapidly above a critical threshold.

Read my lips: transitions in nature are not smooth, gradual and predictable. They are rough, fast, unpredictable and often brutish. Those who are caught unawares become fodder for natural selection. (See posts by Cosmoline in this thread for consequences.)

5) Following are the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situations for which I am preparing.

Will they happen in my lifetime? I don't know. On my next camping/backpacking/mountaineering expedition, will I face balmy weather or brutish storms? I don't know. But if the former, I'm happy. If the latter, & I'm unprepared, then I have no one to blame but myself for being unprepared, and no one to count on but myself for surviving it. FEMA is still busy in NO.
_______

Peak oil (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/index.html)

Global warming/climate change (http://www.aip.org/history/climate/)

Hey, have you checked what's happening in the Arctic (http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article328217.ece) recently?

Just ask Cosmoline what's happening to the weather near the Arctic (http://www.physorg.com/news6558.html).

Think those are a bunch of bunk dreamed up by leftist, envirowacko pinkos? Don't believe any of this?

OK, that's your choice. It's a free country. Believe whatever you want. I could care less. We all do what we do.

But just for the record:

A) I teach college-level classes about both issues.

B) I'm apolitical. I'm not lobbying for smaller cars, better gas mileage, stronger emmision standards, or any of the standard environmentalist BS offered as solutions to the above problems.

C) I'd rather be prepared and wrong than unprepared and right.

Read my lips: it's too late for such mambe pambe environmentalist solutions. Nothing we can do will stop the transition. What they (environmentalists) are not telling you about is acceleration in nonlinear systems ('positive feedback'), phase transitions at critical thresholds (like ice to water, or magnetic to nonmagnetic transitions) & lag time effects (the warming of Earth that is occuring now is resulting from an increase in gases emitted decades ago. What we're putting up now won't have an effect for several more decades).

Prediction: we're going to get slammed, and it's going to be sooner than later.

Next year? Next decade? Three decades? Can't say. Nonlinear dynamics prohibit accurate predictions of when phase transitions will occur.

But if you've got kids, and care about their future, then I'd teach them how to deal with SHTF/TEOTWAWKI, because agricultural & economic systems as we've known them for the last 100 years are going bye bye.

In this case, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

I hope the weather on my next camping/backpacking/mountaineering expedition is sunny, dry & balmy.

But if not, I have no one to blame but myself if I'm not prepared.

SHTF?

TEOTWAWKI?

Maybe. Maybe not.
______

Hey, I've still got one more taco. Think I'll go have a snack.

Then, I'll polish my K9, and think about upgrades to my BOB.

Hey, guess what! I finally got that check from the estate lawyer. Going to order my 870P tomorrow!

Woohoo!

;)

Nem

mindpilot
November 23, 2005, 04:17 AM
http://www.gungarage.com/gangster.gif

Jmurman
November 23, 2005, 04:59 AM
Good post Nemotocyst-870!

mindpilot
November 23, 2005, 05:36 AM
yes good post.

Mongo the Mutterer
November 23, 2005, 06:54 AM
Nematocyst-870 -- good post. You have almost convinced me about global warming. Not quite, but almost.

I think the fact that the theory is one of tenets of anti-American leftists gives me gas. I believe Robert Kennedy Jr. less than I believe my cat Butter, who is sitting in front of my keyboard as I type. Butter makes more sense, and doesn't insult governors of hurricane ravaged states.

At any rate, Mongo and Deadeye Deb keep preparing. Vigilance doesn't cost much.

Travis McGee
November 23, 2005, 11:18 AM
N-870: Great post.

Yes, I agree 100%, things are on the verge of going "non-linear," and the disruption will bring on SHTF, if not TEOTWAWKI. The best we can probably hope for is a severe hit to the economy, leading at least to an Argentina 2001-2005 model. If that type of economic collapse occurs in the USA, it will be MUCH worse than in Argentina, because of our dyfunctional social dynamics. Think post-Katrina, nationwide, with no FEMA cavalry riding to the rescue. We will be on our own, for weeks, months or forever, while bands of extremely hungry bad guys will be looking for food, warmth, loot, women etc. When these guys realize that law and order have broken down....it will get VERY ugly in a hurry. Many of them will have been nursing racial and other grudges all of their lives, and they will ENJOY hurting you. Please go back to my post at the end of page 3 of this thread, and read the "Thoughts on Urban Survival" link, and then imagine those economic realities in the USA.


What will tip our economy into collapse? Could be a mutated bird flu leading to a 1918 level pandemic. Could be Iran, using oil as an economic weapon: in March 2006 they will begin to sell oil in Euro-denominated contracts. The last two generations of Uncle Sam's fiat dollar supremacy may be coming to an end, and when that happens.... "Hello, Argentina USA," when the world decides to dump dollars. Those are just two possible "triggers, there are lots of other events which could knock the global economy off of the tracks, and when that happens, rioting will break out in every major city, when the supermarkets, ATMs and gas stations run dry and are not restocked.

I would not want to live in or near a large city when (not if) this happens.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody, I seriously do not think our supermarkets will be full of frozen turkeys in November 2006.

itgoesboom
November 23, 2005, 11:50 AM
To all you gun owners that like to make fun of those of us that engage in discussions about preparations for the worst and store small quantities of ammunition and arms:

When you see us talking about defending our lives from marauders or attackers in a case of civil unrest, disaster or societal collapse, who do you think we're talking about?

Well, asside from terrorists/invaders, zombies, giant bugs, aliens and the government, we're talking about YOU.


Yes, that's right. Try to ignore the jokes about the zombies and bugs and realize that I am VERY serious here.


Those of you that have firearms and the knowledge to use them that don't have some MRE's or canned goods and water stored as well as evacuation routes and alternate plans based on plausible disaster scenarios put others at risk because of your lazines and blissninnie attitude. What are you gonna do, let your wife and kids die of starvation because you didn't prepare for the situation you find yourself in, or will you go hunting? In some areas, the only hunting you can do consists of what's over in Joe Neighbor's house and convincing him to give it to you, or forcing him to.

I don't know anyone, no matter if the situation is their fault or not, that would let their family members or children die if they had the means to prevent it, no matter what those means were and what using them meant committing themselves to.

I'll say it again, gun owners in condition white that do not take certain aspects seriously (firearms politics and rights, disaster preparations) are MY biggest concern.

The fact that you all think you have the maturity to be responsible enough to own a firearm but mock others for being more responsible than you are for their own safety and thus the safety of others, albeit in an unlikely scenarios, astounds me.

Unprepared gun owners, just like every other person who is not prepared, will turn into welfare-entitlement whores when the food and water are gone and Billy Jr. and little Sally are dehydrating and starving...only the entitlements will to whatever someone else has because they were better prepared or more fortunate but are not sharing, the checks will be cashed at will and will be written on shell casings, signed in someone else's blood.

But nah, can't happen here, right? :rolleyes:

It's not the guy that gets over eccentric about preparing for disaster and has 20,000 rounds of ammo, 15 rifles and 22 escape routes with 200lbs of gear that worries me, it's the guy with no preparations (mentally or materially) that finds himself and his family stuck in a bad situation with nowhere to go and nothing to lose that I worry about. In dire circumstances, even the most civilized and honorable of human beings are capable of every vile and vicious act known to man (rape, murder, cannibalism, incest, theft, torture etc...), one would do well to remember that.

You do what you want, donít worry, we think youíre just as foolish as you think we are.

This deserves to be repeated yet again.

My family and I are prepared to live through natural and man made disasters. Are you?

I.G.B.

itgoesboom
November 23, 2005, 11:51 AM
Remember the 1984 Winter Olympics in Sarejevo? Remember how all the talking heads gushed and said that the city and people were so sophisticated and educated. They were cosmopolitan, even if they were a Communist nation. We were told they were "just like us".

What if they were right?


Another excellent point.

I.G.B.

NineseveN
November 23, 2005, 12:05 PM
Nemo, not to get off-track, because I suspect we've had this discussion once before, but I think where you lose folks is when the discussion starts introducing the words "global warming". That's not exactly precise from all accounts, and I suspect you know that.

While I find most of the Global Warming literature to be full of a bunch of presumptions and misleading information, I doubt anyone on either side of the isle can disagree that the climate is changing or could possibly begin to change at some point if it already has not. Nature is certainly no poster child for stability. But here's the point:

If it is global warming, and the results are as they predict, things will go downhill hard and fast. We're talking worst-case catastrophic event scenarios.

If this is the natural ebb and flow of the climate system, things are still going to get a whole lot worse before they get better. Just because it's natural and part of a cycle doesn't mean itís pleasant. After all, a pride of lions feeding on a kill is completely natural, but it's a whole new ball game when you're on the lunch menu.

And this is where SHTF scenarios and folks on both sides of the isle can meet. No matter what the situation truly is (ebb and flow, global warming, both or neither), you should plan for all of those scenarios in a general sense, because that's the nature of planning. If we knew exactly what would happen, when it would happen, how it would happen and for how long, there'd be no need to discuss it or plan for it. Since all of us SHTF'ers are saying preparation is key, I think it is important to listen to what the other guy is saying too, even if you disagree. Think about it, what if he's right?

wingnutx
November 23, 2005, 12:39 PM
A few years ago the main gasoline supply line into Phoenix broke. Gas had to be trucked in, so there was a general shortage.

Even though this was more an inconvenience than a catastrophe, I saw thugs pulling guns to force their way to the head of the gas lines. People panicked.

Imagine how the great unwashed would react to something more serious, like water being cut off for a week when it's 115 degrees outside. People will die not just from dehydration, but at the hands of their panicked fellow citizens trying to get the last case of water at the store. I'd rather spend $20 at costco and throw a couple of cases in my garage ahead of time. At worst I am out the $20 or I drink it while I'm doing yard work.

In the gas situation, the guy who keeps an extra 20 gallons in his garage and his tank topped off is sitting pretty and can ride it out, not waiting for an hour while hoping he'll get to the pump in time. He's also not out his investment if he just uses the gas and rotates his stock.

Travis McGee
November 23, 2005, 01:09 PM
Regardless of whether global warming is manmade or a natural cyclical cycle, nine-seven's point about non-linear change stands. We know know from tree ring studies and ice cores, that weather patterns can swing with great speed once certain "tipping points" or threshholds are reached.

An example of this is the El Nino weather cycle, where the main Pacfic Ocean currents reverse, sending rain into deserts and draughts to wet areas from Australia to the Americas.

A threshold temperature change which alters ocean currents on a long term basis could throw global weather patterns into what would appear to be chaos to us. Wet areas become dry, dry areas wet, and so on. And unlike an El Nino year, they would stay that way.

Many of the world's major cities would become untenable, if the rains move hundreds or thousands of miles away, and rivers and lakes dry out and stay dry, while floods bring ruin to other areas.

Just something to add into our witches' cauldron.

mohican
November 23, 2005, 01:17 PM
I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here. The only SHTF I'm seriously worried about is the kind that involves a gas station burrito a lack of TP coupled with a malfunctioning celing fan.:what:

before 9/11, fire department training for airplanes being flown into buildings was limited...........

USSR
November 23, 2005, 02:38 PM
My family and I are prepared to live through natural and man made disasters. Are you?

Yes. But we just don't feel the need to put on tin foil hats and carry on hypothetical conversations.

Don

Cosmoline
November 23, 2005, 03:16 PM
What tin foil are you talking about? You still haven't even quoted anything you think is so outrageous.

Daniel964
November 23, 2005, 03:26 PM
In the gas situation, the guy who keeps an extra 20 gallons in his garage and his tank topped off is sitting pretty and can ride it out, not waiting for an hour while hoping he'll get to the pump in time. He's also not out his investment if he just uses the gas and rotates his stock.

I keep 30 gallons use it to fill the car then fill the cans at the gas station. I put a piece of tape on the cans as they are filled with the date so the oldest are used first. The cars tank doesn't drop below a half tank before its topped off.

Kodiaz
November 23, 2005, 03:44 PM
Hey use STA BIL it keeps the gas from going stale my cousin used 20 gallons of gas that was stored for 6 mos to get out of Miami after Wilma(no power no water) he said his mileage was exactly the same on the STABILized gas

Carl N. Brown
November 23, 2005, 04:18 PM
My family and I are prepared to live through natural and man made disasters. Are you?

Yes. But we just don't feel the need to put on tin foil hats and carry on hypothetical conversations.

Preparing for natural and man-made disasters is common sense (which
is uncommon) and is not tin foil helmet SHTF.

The tin foil helmet SHTF is when we put our tongues in our cheeks
and speculate on what would be the best guns and gear for mutant
zombies or War of the Worlds aliens. We are aware of how silly we
may look to outsiders.

Nematocyst
November 23, 2005, 04:38 PM
Jmurman, Mindpilot, Mongo & Travis, thanks for your kind words.

Travis, could you post a link or two that you like to information about that "Argentina 2001-2005 model"? I don't know much about what's been happening there, but it sounds relevant to all this and I would like to do some reading about it. No hurry.

Nemo, not to get off-track, because I suspect we've had this discussion once before, but I think where you lose folks is when the discussion starts introducing the words "global warming". That's not exactly precise from all accounts, and I suspect you know that.

While I find most of the Global Warming literature to be full of a bunch of presumptions and misleading information <remainder of good essay snipped out>... NineseveN, from that point on, I agree with you 100%, and I mostly agree with what I quoted above.

You're right, we have discussed this global warming/climate change issue before in a thread that I started. The thread got locked (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153994) (which was reasonable because this IS a gun forum, and we weren't discussing guns, but gw/cc).

I don't want to risk getting this thread locked. It's too important. There are many possible causes of SHTF/TEOTW scenarios. GW/CC is only one of them. (Though as I have written elsewhere, if the theory is right, it WILL be the grandmother of all TEOTWAWKI events resulting from natural causes, e.g., other than nuclear war.) So, I'll keep my comments short.

The hot buttons attached to global warming/climate discussions come when we get into the realm of who or what is to blame (humans v. "natural") and what do we do about it (e.g., burn less fuel? new legislation to reduce car size or driving? switch to solar power and abandon fossil fuels? etc, etc, ad naseum.)

In my 12 week classes, I don't discuss "solutions" until the very last week. Nor do I allow ANY politics to leak into discussions and lectures. It's not about playing the blame game. Instead, I focus entirely on the science & mathematics, including climate models: what we know, what we don't know, what the evidence is, how models are built, etc.

You are right, NineseveN, that there are sometimes "presumptions and misleading information" inserted into discussions about these issues. But if you select your information carefully, and read far enough, you'll find authors on all sides of the political spectrum - from radical to liberal to conservative - that get it and are taking it seriously.

The main reading material I use for the class is http://www.aip.org/history/climate/. That is a HUGE site, but is the best single treatment on the web addressing the science and mathematics of the issue, developed by a respected physicist, with miminal treatment of politics.

When we do discuss "solutions", they are offered by all members of the class, and range all over the map. I listen to, but neither endorse nor condemn the solutions offered. It's a way of letting people see some hope in an otherwise pretty dark class. My main solution suggested is, buckle your seatbelt, and be ready for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI.

I make it clear that any "solutions" that are invoked are only going to help future generations (if they help at all), because of that lag time issue that I mentioned in my last post.

OK, I'm off to buy a shottie. (And I'm not even going to wear my tin hat. :D )

Nem

1911 guy
November 24, 2005, 07:41 AM
While I admit to not usually posting on the SHTF threads, I do see the value of them. Assuming they steer shy of zombies and mutant bears, of course!:D
I view them as a mental exercise to keep me thinking about reactions to the world around me and not just about societal breakdown. Sit around and play the "what if" game in your head.

Now on to what Nematocyst-870 and a few others have written. One word: Bingo. We have short memories and tend to forget the lessons our parents and grandparents tried to teach us. That's why history repeats itself. We're too freaking stupid to learn from our mistakes as a society and civilization. The S has hit the F before and it most certainly do so again. Probably not that far off, either. It may not start here and may not end here, but it will most certainly pass through here.
The other thing working against us here is the fact that slow declines are called political process and interfering is considered a crime while quick falls are viewed as O.K. to do something about. Don't stick to the 20th century, read all the way back to the fall of Rome, human nature is the same. Anyone who saw it coming was viewed as being a problem while those championing status quo were heroes. Sound familiar?

Travis McGee
November 28, 2005, 05:37 PM
Bump for later.....

Cosmoline
November 28, 2005, 05:51 PM
Preparing for natural and man-made disasters is common sense (which
is uncommon) and is not tin foil helmet SHTF.

The tin foil helmet SHTF is when we put our tongues in our cheeks
and speculate on what would be the best guns and gear for mutant
zombies or War of the Worlds aliens. We are aware of how silly we
may look to outsiders.

Heck, there are ENTIRE FORUMS dedicated to speculating about the rise of the undead:

http://www.allthingszombie.com/forums/index.php

Travis McGee
November 28, 2005, 10:21 PM
Nematocyst-870:
Below is a link to the very long essay on post-SHTF survival, written by a 26 year old newly minted architect in Buenos Aires. (He is FerFAL in the posts.)In December 2001, the economy collapsed, and the currency was devalued by 70%, throwing the country from first world status into a "great depression" over night. Power is still intermittant, water is nasty when it flows, crime, carjacking and kidnapping have exploded.

You need to go to Frugal Squirrels dot com, navigate to the Frugal's Forums page, then to General Patriot Discussion. "Thoughts on Urban Survival" is a "sticky" at the top.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=044387

The owner of the forum paid the author a (well deserved) copyright fee, both to help him out financially and to protect his work for possible later publication in book form. That's why I can't just print it here....I wouldn't be keeping on "The High Road" if I did. Anyway, it only takes a minute for the free registration to access the thread, or so I'm told. (I've been a "squirrel" over there so long, I forget exactly what registration entails, but it is free. It's just the way the site is set up.) Don't worry, "Thoughts On Urban Survival" is worth it!

And as bad as it is in Argentina, it's likely that a similar level of economic collapse will result in far worse violence in the USA, because we do not share a common ethnic heritage and religion like the Argentines do. Racial tensions and ethnic Balkanization may send our cities into "Sarajevo status" rather quickly, if the ATMs, gas stations and supermarkets go empty and are not refilled for weeks or months, following an economic collapse.

secamp32
November 28, 2005, 11:34 PM
Mixlesplick said
When the millenium hit I stocked up on toilet paper and some extra water. I didn't expect the computers to all shut down but I knew if everything came to a standstill I did not want to run out of tp.;)

I think that teotwawki happens TP will be worth its weight in gold. And I'll be rich :D

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 01:12 AM
You need to go to Frugal Squirrels dot com, navigate to the Frugal's Forums page, then to General Patriot Discussion. Travis, thanks.

I've registered now (just did), but I have to be approved by the mods before I can read posts. Will do so soon as I get approval.

(It's funny that recently in another thread, someone referred to a 'frugal squirrel post worth reading''. I thought 'frugal squirrel' was a member of THR. Didn't know it was another entire forum. I look forward to exploring it.)

Thanks also for the brief overview of the Argentina thing. Will read more soon.

Nem

Malone LaVeigh
November 29, 2005, 01:39 AM
One of these days I've got a whole thread in me dedicated to "What I learned from Katrina." I'm still processing it all and dealing with the aftermath, which is not over. Suffice to say I was pretty well prepared and managed to come through in good enough shape, if you consider losing my house, a trailer, an apartment and my business acceptable.

The point I'd like to make now is that the things most people are advocating for preparedness is just plain common sense, or ought to be. Have enough water and food on hand and in a form you can readily use to last for a reasonable period of time. A week at least. Keep the tank topped off and be ready to evacuate on short notice. Heck, my ex-wife, who is as mainstream as anyone I know, is keeping a BOB these days.

Keep an adequate supply of ammunition for the firearms you think you'd use in a bad situation, but be prepared for the authorities having a different agenda than your personal safety.

Think you live in an area that doesn't have to worry about earthquakes, hurricanes, ice storms, floods, etc? Is there a railroad anywhere near? Then you could have to evacuate in a hurry if there's a spill.

Really, though, these are all just short-term regional problems that you can run away from or at least expect aid to arrive at some point. The kind of preparations that most are talking about here will serve you well in those situations. Peak oil, climate change, financial collapse, and pandemic disease are what people really need to start taking seriously. I agree with Nem and others that there really isn't much that can be done to avert the most predictable ones, peak oil and climate change. If people had listened to the enviro whackos 30 years ago, maybe, but we'll have plenty of time to kick ourselves for the choices we made. Or we won't.

The only strategy I see for the large scale scenarios really doesn't involve a lot of arming myself and fighting off the zombie hordes. Allying myself with a cohesive, far-sighted community that will work together to develop those primary skills necessary to get food, water and energy from the resources at hand is more realistic IMO. Make fun of my foil hat if you like, but aluminum is going to be one of the scarcer metals in a few years.

Malone LaVeigh
November 29, 2005, 01:53 AM
If you don't want to bother with registering at frugal squirrels, there's a discussion of the Argentine story here:

http://peakoil.com/fortopic14183.html

Hope it doesn't violate any copywright laws. I'd still buy the book.

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 02:35 AM
... there's a discussion of the Argentine story here:

http://peakoil.com/fortopic14183.html Malone, thanks.

I've only scanned it so far, but ... wow. Interesting.

This section sticks out at me so far:

"PART III: GUNS, AMMO AND OTHER GEAR

After TSHTF in 2001, only the most narrow minded, brain washed, butterfly IQ level idiots believed that the police would protect them from the crime wave that followed the collapse of our economy.

A lot of people that could have been considered antigun before, ran to the gun shops, seeking advise on how to defend themselves and their families.

They would buy a 38 revolver, a box of ammo, and leave it in the closet, probably believing that it would magically protect them from intruders.

Oh, maybe you donít think that firearms are really necessary or your beliefs do not allow you to buy a tool designed to kill people. So you probably ask yourself, is a gun really necessary when TSHTF? Will it truly make a difference?

Having gone through a shtf scenario myself, total economical collapse in the year 2001, and still dealing with the consequences, 5 years later, I feel I can answer that question.

YES, you need a gun, pepper spray, a machete, a battle axe, club with a rusty nail sticking out of it, or whatever weapon you can get hold of."

Club with a rusty nail. Hmm. Hadn't thought of that one.
_____

Good luck with your relocation, Malone.

Where you thinking of going?

Please keep us posted.

Nem

Raph84
November 29, 2005, 03:16 AM
I love the SHTF posts. Agree 100% about preparedness.
One thing I wanted to point out (which I have pointed out to my GF who has a phobia about zombies), any preparation against zombies parlays itself into disaster preparedness. While the scale and danger is likely to be less, if you have a secure dwelling and plywood to board up windows etc. and have 10-100 guns loaded and ready, then you could just as easily take care of yourself (as well as family, and friends, and the whole neighborhood).

So while in a non-zombie shtf scenario headshots are a bit less important, all other preparations are completely sane and useful.

;) And if by some chance the government does release its army of zombies I intend to be ready.:neener:

Malone LaVeigh
November 29, 2005, 03:33 AM
Where you thinking of going?
I should edit my location. That was from when I was relocating to the Miss. Gulf Coast from California. I'm sticking it out on the Coast for now, in the process of buying a new home. For TEOTWAWKI I have land upstate, but I might want to be closer to my kids in Cal. IOW, I haven't decided.

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 03:57 AM
I'm sticking it out on the Coast for now, in the process of buying a new home. I have a suggestion: if you're going to live on the gulf coast, why not consider a 'mobile' home.

I'm not talking about a 'trailer' in the sense of 1970-90.

No, I'm talking about a yurt or dome. Something that can offer a comfortable space for cooking, eating & sleeping, but can be moved in less than 2 days in the back of a large pickup.

Malone, if we are right about climate change, you know in your heart of hearts that 'home' as a concept born in times of climate stability is coming to an end.

'Homes' built of wood will be blown down repeatedly in an era of hurricanes of increased frequency & amplitude, dude. Know what I mean?

Tropical storm 'Delta' has formed in the Atlantic, heading your way.

No way to know if it will strike mainland US. But now, that's irrelevant.

The point is, this year has set a new record for named storms.

We broke the old one at Wilma.

Alpha, Beta, Gamma & now Delta punctuate the season.

Yurts & domes go up and come down quickly, and can move in the back of a pickup.

Remember Argentina.

Club with a rusty nail.

Nem

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 04:37 AM
Stats for this thread:

Replies: 107
Views: 2,451

Larger numbers than
any other thread on
the first page of the "new post" list.

What's the message here?

Nem

Jmurman
November 29, 2005, 05:49 AM
Stats for this thread:

Replies: 107
Views: 2,451

Larger numbers than
any other thread on
the first page of the "new post" list.

What's the message here?

Nem

The message is that far more people are understanding that something could take place in this day and age.

What Travis McGee said is correct about Frugals...check them out, its not just a weapon site.

mmike87
November 29, 2005, 06:40 AM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.

I am not a history expert, but historically hasn't EVERY government eventually collapsed?

I think you may be confusing folks who are preparing for the inevitable (regardless of whether the inevitable will happen in our lifetimes or not) and those who seek to participate in the collapse.

It's like asteriods - we KNOW one will SOMEDAY hit. Tomorrow or 500 years from now. But when the stakes are that high can you afford to not be prepared?

Oldtimer
November 29, 2005, 09:02 AM
I've also been a member, for many years, in several other forum boards, but still fairly new to THR, so I don't know how long the "SHTF" posts have been in this forum. All I know is that THR is THE BEST, overall!

Most of my adult life has involved "SHTF" situations in one way or another. Some have merely been FARTS (pardon me/delete if that term is forbidden) hitting the fan, so maybe we need to use the acronym of "FHTF" for the minor, non-lethal events (?)

BenW
November 29, 2005, 09:33 AM
Stats for this thread:

Replies: 107
Views: 2,451

Larger numbers than
any other thread on
the first page of the "new post" list.

What's the message here?

Nem

I think the message is one of commonality of ideas. No matter what the political, religious, whatever, idealogies each of us here shares or does not, in my years on this forum (and previously TFL), I've always appreciated that the majority of forum members seem to have the commonality of individual responsibility and plain old common sense regarding things like SHTF (attacking aliens from Xenomorph 5 excluded, though they're still fun to read :) ).

Just take a look at Malone's post #103 here. In having read his posts here over the life of the forum, I would say that he and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum on many subjects. In his post, were I to meet him in person, we could spend an entire day drinking beer and debating his statement about "listening to the enviro whackos 30 years ago." Yet that doesn't mean that I don't believe climate change is an important SHTF scenario -- I just believe a different evidence dataset regarding the causes and basic nature of climate change than he does. That doesn't mean that either of us wouldn't prepare for that SHTF scenario much differently.

If you read the rest of that particular post, it's a succinct "Reader's Digest" statement of what I believe to be our "commonality of common sense." There's lots of thread views because of the common interest. I'd bet good money that were we all in NOLA during Katrina, not a one of us would have been found in the Superdome.

Travis McGee
November 29, 2005, 11:48 AM
Nematocyst, all:
Even though you can read the main body of the essay at peakoil, I suggest everyone read the complete thread at Frugal Squirrels. The author added other large sections down thread (urban survival driving, kidnapping, etc), plus he answered a lot of specific questions readers posed, going into great detail with specific examples and reasons.

I consider "Thoughts on Urban Survival" to be the most important thing I've read in years.

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 03:27 PM
I think the message is one of commonality of ideas. No matter what the political, religious, whatever, idealogies each of us here shares or does not, in my years on this forum (and previously TFL), I've always appreciated that the majority of forum members seem to have the commonality of individual responsibility and plain old common sense regarding things like SHTF (attacking aliens from Xenomorph 5 excluded, though they're still fun to read :) ) Ben, well said. I very much agree.

I also agree with Oldtimer: "I've also been a member, for many years, in several other forum boards, but still fairly new to THR, so I don't know how long the "SHTF" posts have been in this forum. All I know is that THR is THE BEST, overall!"

This is one of the best (if not THE best) online forums I've ever been part of. I find myself spending sometimes hours per day on it. The wealth of knowledge I've gained here is staggering.

And, I feel a sense of companionship even with people that I know I would disagree with on political or religious matters.

Nem

Kodiaz
November 29, 2005, 08:00 PM
The "Thoughts on Urban Survival" post on squirrels should be read by evryone. There is so much info in that post. That guy talks about buying ammo 20 bullets ata time because they are hard to come by. About worrying if the supermarkets will just close and he won't be able to buy food. If you have a SHTF plan you have to read this post

Travis McGee
November 30, 2005, 02:39 AM
Honestly, "Thoughts On Urban Survival" is the most important thing I've read in years.
I wish I could post it all here.

eoR
November 30, 2005, 04:24 AM
Just a side note, I rally hate when I commit a typo but the line is good enough for someone to quote it. Really detracts from my genius. :o

But do you rally rally hate it when you commit another typo while commenting on the first typo? :p :)


Travis, they've got a lot of FerFal's stuff up on the Ark now. No registration required.

http://www.buildanark.net/argentinean.html

XLMiguel
November 30, 2005, 08:26 AM
Chance favors the prepared mind.

Fact: ****** does happen - weather, natural disasters, human disasters, pandemic disease, social breakdown, market disruptions, government ineptitude/corruption/inherent incompetence of large bureaucracies - appropriate preparation and response varies with degree, but the one constant is that you will be on your own to some degree and your degree of success in coping may have a lot to do with natural selection:evil:

Maybe some are paranoid, maybe some are old Boy Scouts.

The only real zombie I know is made with 3 kinds of rum and some tropical fruit juice, over indulgence can result in a liquid lobotomy.

The best SHTF threads I've read here [so far] were Preacherman's post-Katrina review and teh "I Fear My Friends" essay.

NineseveN
November 30, 2005, 08:35 AM
But do you rally rally hate it when you commit another typo while commenting on the first typo?

Hehe, that one was for effect. ;)

Travis McGee
November 30, 2005, 10:46 AM
eoR: I believe that the owner of BuildanArk is the same as the guy who runs Frugal Squirrels, hence he can post, because he bought the copyright from FerFal.

Malone LaVeigh
November 30, 2005, 03:07 PM
I think there might be a little too much emphasis here on the "on your own" aspect of preparedness. The fact is that for the vast majority of us who went through Katrina, we were not on our own for any appreciable period of time. Since this is a gun forum, I'll focus on that for a bit.

I was armed for a time camped out in the ruins of my business. Police patrols that came by at night were aware I was there and armed, and for the most part were tolerant of that. These were mostly local police, and I have a good relationship with the local agencies, having employed a few as off-duty security. However, there was never any doubt to me that the LE and emergency authorities reserve the right to monopolize force. That's what they do. I think for most people in LE, that's almost the definition of LE.

I know people who were south of the tracks, who would tell a very different story than mine. Some were harassed and strongly pressured to leave after the storm, buildings were condemned that were still habitable (and people forced out), etc. I heard rumors, which I can't confirm, of confiscations of guns, night patrols of armed units with shoot-to kill orders, etc. What this tells me is there will almost always be a strong presence of authorities whose primary interest is in maintaining order, not necessarily your life, your property, and definitely not your rights.

Now expanding from guns to the rest of survival, what I come back to every time I think about this is the need to be organized and as self-sufficient as possible at the community level. This is especially applicable to the larger-scale scenarios we're discussing.

On a political level, I think (hope) we're going to reach a point that all of those debates become less important. I do believe that if we had gotten serious about energy conservation and developing alternatives to oil in the 70s, we could have averted much of the suffering that is likely to accompany our lives a few years after we reach Peak Oil. But that was not to be, Carter learned that the hard way. Now we're left with telling our kids that we whizzed away the last of it for ourselves. At this point, the best we can do is try to set things up so they have some kind of fall-back option.

Edit for asside to Travis: I'll have to register over at Frugals. I wish they didn't make it such a PITA. thanks for the info.

Sawdust
November 30, 2005, 06:35 PM
eoR: I believe that the owner of BuildanArk is the same as the guy who runs Frugal Squirrels, hence he can post, because he bought the copyright from FerFal.

You are correct, sir.

Now go do some writing, please, and finish the next book. ;)

Sawdust

NineseveN
November 30, 2005, 07:29 PM
I think there might be a little too much emphasis here on the "on your own" aspect of preparedness. The fact is that for the vast majority of us who went through Katrina, we were not on our own for any appreciable period of time. Since this is a gun forum, I'll focus on that for a bit.


In some ways I agree, however, when things get thick the only one you can truly count on is you. People who are otherwise very trustworthy do some odd things under duress and can become very different people. I had the idea of folks at THR getting to know each other on a regional level a bit more (i.e. folks in Central PA could get together and maybe discuss some of these things a bit) so that you'd at least have some like-minded folks within a short distance should the chips ever be down. I never had time to make it materialize though. Unless you live around a bunch of folks that are of the same mindset, I'd be aprehensive about letting your own solo preparations relax thinking that there will always be others on the same side as you are. But it is something to consider with more attention than some of us may be giving it.

Tomcat1066
November 30, 2005, 07:57 PM
This is my first post here on THR, but since it's a subject near and dear to my heart, I just had to.

TSHTF posts might annoy some folks, but for many of us who are concerned about our families wellbeing in time of social collapse, it's important for us to learn how todeal with things NOW, rather than later when we're smack dab in the middle of it. Personally, if I don't want to read a post, I just don't. But that's just me ;)

Yep, I'm one of these people who stock up on food and ammo and prepare for the world to end. But I'm also the guy who works 40 hours a week, pays his digital cable bill, and loves movies that may or may NOT deal with TEOTWAWKI. There is no reason for people like me to scare you. I'm just wanting to protect my family, even in the worst conditions.

I have guns, I have food, and I have water. But if I didn't tell you that, you could walk into my house and never know. :D

Tom

Travis McGee
November 30, 2005, 10:29 PM
Malone: Here's a link straight to "Thoughts On Urban Survival" run by the guy who runs Frugals. You won't have to register.

http://www.buildanark.net/argentinean.html

You may be interested to know that the Argentine urban survivor comes to some conclusions you may agree with. Remember, his POV is that there is still a society functioning, even at a beat down level, so you can't just run around with an AR-15 over your back. He covers all of the gun choices in later sectinos. Here's an excerpt:

URBAN OR COUNTRY?
Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they were better off than city dwellers. As always there are no simple answers. Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I canít, because if I have to be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that have to be analyzed, especially security. Of course those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard were enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities. Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flour to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.

Of course that there are exceptions, for example, some provinces up north have a desert climate, and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible to live off the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy. Those guys had it bad; no wonder the northern provinces suffer the most in my country. Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they can. Since food prices went up about 200%-300%. People would cut expenses wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could; they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis. It is usually the lack of food or the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when TSHTF.

When it comes to security things get even more complicated. Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR [main battle rifle]. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.

Some facts:

1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you donít come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.

2) Neither do they start shooting at you from 200 yards away.

3) They wonít come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me ďThey looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we areĒ, honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but donít expect them to dress like in the movies.

4) A man with a wife and two or three kids canít set up a watch. I donít care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.

The best alarm system anyone can have on a farm are dogs. But dogs can get killed and poisoned. A friend of mine had all four dogs poisoned on his farm one night, they all died. After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches. Big cities arenít much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking getting shot for whatís in his pockets or even his clothes.

So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away from it all, on your own. The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community. Some may think that having neighbors within ďshoutingĒ distance means losing your privacy and freedom, but itís a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all timesÖ. Grow up.

Malone LaVeigh
November 30, 2005, 11:14 PM
Travis,

Yes, I read that part of the discussion over at Peak Oil. That is exactly what I'm talking about. The idea of moving to the country and surviving on a few acres at the end of a dirt road in either the hippie or rugged individualist fantasy just isn't realistic. That article did more to cement my thinking than anything I've read in a long time. I can't wait to read the rest. Thanks.

Oh, and I don't mind registering over at FS. They just make you jump through a few more hoops than most. And do I really need another whole bunch of reading that I really HAVE to do every day if I get registered and make a post or two? Katrina almost broke me of the habit.

bobhaverford
November 30, 2005, 11:39 PM
I've a member of various other forums with thousands of posts and I cannot figure out whats up with all of the SHTF threads on THR I have never even seen the term before coming here. The only SHTF I'm seriously worried about is the kind that involves a gas station burrito a lack of TP coupled with a malfunctioning celing fan.:what:

Given what's going on in the world today, if you aren't imaginative enough to envision the need for such discussion you may well be on the wrong board. Perhaps a knitting board? Good luck with your afgan.

cz75bdneos22
November 30, 2005, 11:50 PM
WHAT!! you mean you didn't see Red Dawn!!!:neener:
Wolverines!!!::p

Tom Servo
December 1, 2005, 01:17 AM
WHAT!! you mean you didn't see Red Dawn!!!:neener:
Wolverines!!!::p
Reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto game, in which you hear a commercial for Ammo-Nation where they have a "free screening of the documentary film Red Dawn...

I worked doing some Y2K compliance stuff back in the dark days at the end of the 20th century, and yeah, I took some SHTF precautions. I ended up not needing them, but hey, it helps to have a generator and a few spare blankets laying around. As far as the bottled water, non-perishables and ammo, I've used those anyway.

I wasn't afraid that all the computers were going to melt down, but we ALL expected some glitches here and there (and yeah, we were all pleasantly surprised). Most of the problems centered around power-switching apparati in power plants, in which the problematic code was embedded in firmware. We expected some sporadic power-outages, which wouldn't have been a problem, except this was *Y2K*, and everyone was expecting DOOM. Imagine it: New Year's Eve in Time's Square. The ball descends...5,4,3,2...blackout. Even if it's only for a few minutes, you can be sure the crowd will panic, and when the lights come on a few minutes later, pandemonium.

No natural force is so unpredictable and dangerous as a panicked, irrational mass of human beings. We sat on our hands as midnight swept over New Zealand, then China, then Eastern Europe, and then we breathed a sigh of relief when the world stubbornly refused to end.

I took what I thought to be reasonable precautions, for which a few neighbors chided me, but guess what? In the days leading up to it, these were the same people asking me for advice on how to prepare. I had a friend in Los Angeles who was ribbed and ridiculed as a "gun nut" until the Rodney King riots. Same probably goes for the few people who were prepared for Katrina.

So, are some of these threads just a bit fanciful and goofy? Sure, but that makes them fun. There's still a wealth of good information in them, and I've learned a few things. I'm fortunate not to live too close to the urban sprawl, and my house is built on high ground in an area not generally subject to geological or weather concerns, but still, it doesn't hurt to be ready for anything.

Those saucer-people are a-comin'...any day now.

Nematocyst
December 1, 2005, 01:31 AM
Nice little essay, Erik.

A+ in my book.

Nem

eoR
December 1, 2005, 02:23 AM
eoR: I believe that the owner of BuildanArk is the same as the guy who runs Frugal Squirrels, hence he can post, because he bought the copyright from FerFal.


Yep, just a heads up that he'd gotten it up on the Ark.

roscoe
December 1, 2005, 11:04 AM
Travis, you should post that Argentinean story on its own thread. Quite hair-raising.

On the firearms angle, I was interested about what he had to say re: pistols vs. revolvers. Imagine having to think about laying down suppressive fire on your way home from work. That story also made me think about folding stocks for rifles more seriously.

benEzra
December 1, 2005, 05:45 PM
I wasn't afraid that all the computers were going to melt down, but we ALL expected some glitches here and there (and yeah, we were all pleasantly surprised). Most of the problems centered around power-switching apparati in power plants, in which the problematic code was embedded in firmware. We expected some sporadic power-outages, which wouldn't have been a problem, except this was *Y2K*, and everyone was expecting DOOM. Imagine it: New Year's Eve in Time's Square. The ball descends...5,4,3,2...blackout. Even if it's only for a few minutes, you can be sure the crowd will panic, and when the lights come on a few minutes later, pandemonium.
Just an aside--I had an acquaintance who was at his parents' house on New Year's Eve, 1999. The entire extended family was watching the Times Square countdown on TV. Y2K was on everyone's minds...

A few seconds before midnight, the dad sneaked down to the basement, and on the stroke of midnight, pulled the main breaker for the house. Much screaming and panic ensued... :D

Thin Black Line
December 1, 2005, 10:24 PM
To all you gun owners that like to make fun of those of us that engage in discussions about preparations for the worst and store small quantities of ammunition and arms:

When you see us talking about defending our lives from marauders or attackers in a case of civil unrest, disaster or societal collapse, who do you think we're talking about?

Well, asside from terrorists/invaders, zombies, giant bugs, aliens and the government, we're talking about YOU.


Yes, there are far too many people with a closet full of AR-15s with all
the bling-bling attachments and about a week of food in the cupboard.
Too bad they didn't buy about three years supply of dehy food in #10
cans instead of their ump-teenth rifle.

It's poor planning. I see all these pictures on websites of people's dozen+
rifle collections. How many of those things are they going to carry and use?
Have they actually ever carried a couple rifles a couple pistols and a full pack
for a few miles? Don't make me laugh.

I've been around a lot of gun owners and "survivalists" over the years
and the great majority who chirp "SHTF preparedness" would be lucky
to scrape up more than a week of food, one working flashlight, a gallon
of gasoline, and a box of bandages.

Yes, these can be the very people who become the MZBs (just like anyone
else out for their own "survival") if a SHTF scenario stretches past the two
week point where there is absolutely no assistance from the outside.

Week #1: "I have a gun, a lot of ammo, and some food. I'll be OK."
Week #2: "I have a gun, a little less ammo and no food. I think I
need to get some food...."
Week #3: "I have a gun, some ammo, I'm starving and I know how to get
some food."

Scarcity of resources makes people do crazy things.....

Thin Black Line
December 1, 2005, 10:46 PM
Malone: Here's a link straight to "Thoughts On Urban Survival" run by the guy who runs Frugals. You won't have to register.

http://www.buildanark.net/argentinean.html

You may be interested to know that the Argentine urban survivor comes to some conclusions you may agree with. Remember, his POV is that there is still a society functioning, even at a beat down level, so you can't just run around with an AR-15 over your back. He covers all of the gun choices in later sectinos.

This quote was also worth noting:

If you can build a well, do so, set it as your top of the list priority as a survivalist. Water comes before firearms, medicines and even food.

I've been to Iraq. It doesn't take much to knock out a municipal water
supply. You learn about water, electricity and waste disposal in a hurry
the hard way when you can't turn a knob, flick a switch or push a lever
to have something taken care of for you. And, what happens to rural
wells if there's no electricity to run the pump or gasoline for generators is
scarce?

I'm not suggesting everyone keep a personal pallet of bottled water (although
you'd be surprised how much you'd use in a week if it was your ONLY source
of water), but a logical starting point is "how much water do I have?"

These are all important things to consider -more important than the kind of
firearm your possess.

Nematocyst
December 1, 2005, 10:59 PM
I see all these pictures on websites of people's dozen+
rifle collections. How many of those things are they going to carry and use?
Have they actually ever carried a couple rifles a couple pistols and a full pack
for a few miles? There's the key paragraph. Too much of anything is a bad thing.

Gimme an 870, my K9 (or the 642, but if the SHTF resulting in TEOTWAWKI, I'd rather have the K9), a few dozen rnds for each (cached in a base camp or two), a good knife (my SOG Seal Pup will do);

a few pounds of rice, polenta, beans; a few cans of tomatoes; some sugar; some salt; some oil; matches; hopefully a can or two of sardines; maybe a few onions & a few bunches of garlic.

a basic 'mess kit', preferably a backpacking or even a two burner propane stove (but at least matches); water filter & canteens;

rain gear, 3 layers of fleece, hat, gloves, a good pair of boots;

a shelter would be nice (even if it's my 4 lb mountaineering tent but i can make do with 3 mil plastic sheeting);

a first aid kit (optional)

at least an expedition backpack (multiple trips are ok) or a cyclocross bike and a BOB trailer...

i'm good for a month or so.

add a hot woman with a warm gun, & i'll stretch that month into an eternity.

:evil:

Nem

BenW
December 2, 2005, 12:00 AM
Yes, these can be the very people who become the MZBs (just like anyone else out for their own "survival") if a SHTF scenario stretches past the two week point where there is absolutely no assistance from the outside.
Speaking of -- Does anyone else remember a few years ago, someone on one of the forums (TFL, 1911? maybe the Usenet?) was writing crackup stories about some mall-ninja survivalist named Mambo or Mubo or something like that? We need to dig those up! :D

Travis McGee
December 3, 2005, 02:00 AM
Roscoe: Speaking of folding stock rifles: a terrific SHTF / modern civil war movie is "Savior" with Dennis Quaid in an unusually dark role. He's an American who has wound up fighting for the Serbs in the middle of Bosnia...long story how that came about. Anyway, he often has to wear civilian clothes, and cross enemy lines, or not even know what "enemy lines" are where, or which side he is on.

At the same time, he needs the range and firepower of a scoped high powered rifle. But...he needs to hide it under a coat to move about in the open. A scoped folding stock rifle seems like a natural choice for this type of crazy mixed up modern civil war battlefield.

Great movie anyway. Recommended.

Travis McGee
December 3, 2005, 02:05 AM
ThinBlackLine: I'm looking around for a couple of plastic barrels to use for water storage. The Argentine's recommendation of 2 gallons per day per person for 2 weeks as a minimum means more than 100 gallons for my family of four. Sometimes I think about a California earthquake breaking the aquaducts which bring the water from the distant mountains. SoCal would get ugly fast with ten million thirsty folks looking for drinking water.

Nematocyst
December 3, 2005, 02:18 AM
A scoped folding stock rifle seems like a natural choice for this type of crazy mixed up modern civil war battlefield. Hey, Travis. Since you mentioned those, which one(s) would you (and others) recommend? I seem to have a 'hankering' for some kind of rifle bigger than my CZ 452 (on the way), but haven't decided what yet.

Yeah, those AR/AK's appeal, but seem a little too ... high tech for my taste. And being a backpacker type, I like the idea of making it smaller, more compact.

Nem

Nematocyst
December 3, 2005, 02:28 AM
Of 5 pages of "new posts",
this thread still is in the lead
in terms of # reading it with
3,470 views.

Close second,
coming up fast:
What a woman! (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=168386)

Gee, I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Bump.

Nem

Travis McGee
December 3, 2005, 03:58 AM
Nematocyst: I've just got a folding SS mini-14, mainly as a boat gun. Side folders will be shorter folded than a collapsing stock in the shortest position, in terms of hiding it under a coat. Basically I'd go with your favorite rifle, and see if there is a folding stock option. The Argentine guy has an FAL folder, I think it's called a Para as in paratroop. I'm a little vague on Russian folding stock options. But the point is a good one that you just can't plan to open carry a long arm in crazy mixed up situations. You may need to shoot it one hour, and another hour, you may need to conceal it. A folder gives you a lot of flexibility, for sure. You are certainly not going to hide an M-1A, Garand or full length AR-15 under your jacket.

roscoe
December 3, 2005, 09:35 AM
Travis, thanks for the recommendation - it is now at the top of my Netflix queue. On the folding stocks - I am now thinking of selling my .223 Saiga (thought I love it) and getting a SU16 for its light weight and foldability.

I have also heard a rumor (on the internet - shocking, I know) that Winchester is going to start coming out with takedown lever rifles next year. If that is true, I plan on getting a Trapper-sized takedown lever gun in .357 - such a rifle would be pretty durn compact. I know, I could order a Marlin from Wild West Guns, but they aren't exactly giving them away.

Travis McGee
December 3, 2005, 02:55 PM
Roscoe: some folks consider lever guns to be a darn nice "PC" almost assault rifle. Looks nice and friendly, hunter-like, but you can put out plenty of rounds. A .357 or .44 mag rifle/revolver combo makes sense to me.

Malone LaVeigh
December 3, 2005, 03:23 PM
I'm looking around for a couple of plastic barrels to use for water storage.

You can get plastic trash cans pretty cheap at Home Depot-type places or business supply houses. I've got several from my business, but they're in Miss and no lids, and you probably wouldn't want one that was actually used for trash anyway. I've also seen some good blue barrels, about 50 gals that were used for olive oil or something.

See http://www.pep-c.org/waterbarrels1/ for an idea.

I'm planning on putting a couple under downspouts around my house.

I'd think you'd also want several cases of bottled water in 1-gal to 1-liter sizes. The bulk water would mostly be for non-drinking uses, but would make your bottled water stretch a lot further.

I have a well on the house I just bought that has not been operated for several years. Apparently a screen didn't work and it was sucking sand. I need to get it fixed soon. I was thinking of rigging up a trickle pump to a solar cell and a tank I could put maybe 10 feet off the ground. My ground is very flat and that should be enough head to be able to irrigate the acre.

Malone LaVeigh
December 3, 2005, 03:30 PM
Or if you really want to do it with class and have some money to blow, check out http://cgi.ebay.com/02-USED-FRENCH-OAK-WINE-BARREL-CLEANED-READY-TO-FILL_W0QQitemZ7569006186QQcategoryZ67125QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tom Servo
December 3, 2005, 03:46 PM
Week #3: "I have a gun, some ammo, I'm starving and I know how to get some food."
What, you mean gunpowder isn't edible?!? :eek:

Good point, though. Martial preparedness is only part of the picture.

Nematocyst
December 3, 2005, 03:54 PM
It's funny to watch this thread evolve from "why are SHTF threads so popular" to a SHTF thread of it's on. Are we hardcore, or what? :D

In terms of water, I'm planning to invest in a stock of about 10 of something like these (http://www.sparklingsprings.com/products_water.cfm). These are the bottles used in office water dispensers or "bubblers" as they're often called.

There's a cute trick that one can do with one that doesn't require an official dispenser. Just turn one upside down into a standard water cooler like you'd find at a construction site or a picnic, top off of course. It seals against the rim, then fills up as the cooler is drained.

These can be used for drinking water only (and brushing teeth, etc), with rainwater used for bathing, etc.

Bottled water could be used for cooking, but my sense is, if you've got to boil water anyway to cook, that will sterilize it, so use rainwater for cooking, too.

Nem

Elmer Snerd
December 3, 2005, 08:23 PM
Speaking of -- Does anyone else remember a few years ago, someone on one of the forums (TFL, 1911? maybe the Usenet?) was writing crackup stories about some mall-ninja survivalist named Mambo or Mubo or something like that? We need to dig those up! :DJeffrey Schwartz started "Mabuvian Prose" on misc.survivalism. He had a "Mabuvian Prose Archive" page, but it is offline. Archive.org found this. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040930231537/mywebpages.comcast.net/jeffreyschwartz/) Most of the links work, but you will need to click again on the links that are under "Robots.txt Retrieval Exclusion" or open them in another window.

Kodiaz
December 4, 2005, 12:42 AM
Wow that Mabu stuff is hilarious. I wish I could have opened all the links

omnivore75
December 4, 2005, 07:56 AM
People who stockpile rounds and guns for the sole purpose of anticipating a government collapse flat out scare me. I shoot and reload because it's my passion. It's on a byproduct that I might be better prepared than somone else in a disaster.If youre "scared" at the thought of people buying ammo to protect themselves and their family in case the worst did happen (and don't kid yourself by thinking that it can't because thats just fantasy.) then I would suggest some warm milk and a nap.

BenW
December 4, 2005, 10:57 AM
Thanks Elmer -- that's the one!

Man -- that Mabu sure knew how to get the chicks... :D

Malone LaVeigh
December 4, 2005, 03:09 PM
Stocking up on guns in ammo is partof a sensible response to the range of predictable disasters that could come into all of our lives. The hardware is actually a relatively small part, IMO, but it is a really good component for developing an effective mindset.

And that about sums the gun part up for me. I like talking about specifics, though, which is what seems to bother some.

omnivore75
December 4, 2005, 11:13 PM
Hey thats what this place is for. Anyone bothered by people discussing their SHTF setup or their survival setup or any and all aspects of it regardless of what you choose to call it should probably not spend time on THR forum because they are going to be bothered a lot if they do.

hso
December 4, 2005, 11:48 PM
Do not, repeat not, use plastic trashcans to store/collect drinking water.

Only use food grade containers for water storage.

If you still intend to use trash cans or non-food grade drums use a food grade drum liner (http://www.nep.thomasregister.com/olc/46437000/valu.htm) in it.

It's not that you'll poison yourself, 'though lord knows some of you might, but it's that the wrong type of plastic container can cause more subtle alergic reactions that are as bad as drinking toxic dyes or contaminants.

If you can afford it bladder type storage is a good way to go. http://www.interstateproducts.com

Thin Black Line
December 5, 2005, 05:51 AM
There are a lot of places that sell drums made for water such as Nitropak,
Emergency Essencials, etc. The 30 gals are as big as I would go if you plan
on moving them around (such as to a different room).

I live in a rural area with my own well. You should plan for what you have
readily available as far as drinking water, but also make provision for grey
water for handwashing, shaving, cleaning, etc, that can be re-used for these
tasks. I have blue freshwater drums and a small grey water tank with a
flat bottom and a spigot (35 gals).

Saying you have a pond "nearby" (unless you live right on its shore) that you
will take from and purify is not much of a plan if it's hundreds of yards away
or 1,000s other people suddenly plan on using it too. It will get really hard to
haul water back and forth physically and discreetly. Watch Wild Kingdom and
learn how predators just wait at the watering hole for the gazelle to show
up and fathom that risk as well.

If you want to learn how a household works without electricity, try visiting
historical society homes, working farms, etc. Greenfield Village outside of
Detroit is a good example as you get to see the various stages of mechanical
progress and how comfortable (or spartan) a home can be.

I'm not saying we're all going to be reduced to 19th century living, but it will
give you some ideas about how to sustain yourself. Then again, if the Peak
Oilers are right......

Sawdust
December 5, 2005, 10:56 AM
I highly recommend the 15 gallon food grade (opaque blue) water barrels that you can get from places such as Emergency Essentials.

Good capacity; anything larger is just too heavy too move around.

Don't forget a bung wrench and siphon pump, too.

HTH,

Sawdust

Manedwolf
December 5, 2005, 11:12 AM
Maybe if some of the folks in NO, LA had done some of these stupid scenarios, we wouldn't have to be down there wiping so many a$$es. Don't get me wrong, those people needed A LOT of help. But, should any able-bodied person have been completely helpless? No. Just because I keep plenty of ammo and food and water in the house should I need it doesn't make me an idiot or a worrier. It's called being prepared. You shouldn't wear your seatbelt either, because what are the real chances you're going to have an accident? See my point?

That's nice if you have the money to spend on preparedness supplies, to renew your stock every few years, etc, etc...

A lot of people don't. And that's just reality. And they're GOOD people. Hardworking people who might not have made it through school, but they'd been working hard at factories for 20 years, got laid off, and are barely squeaking by, working two or more crap jobs to feed their family.

There's a LOT of those. And they're your fellow Americans. What you're doing is showing that you've absorbed the administration's new ethos that everyone is on their own, needs to be self-sufficient, etc...for some part, that's true, but NOT when help is needed in a major diaster and people with no money and no car ended up trapped and desparate. Then, the government is supposed to be the rescuer and provider. That's what first-world nations do.

Isn't it a little sad that even dirt-poor-population Cuba managed to better organize busing-out of their poorest residents from areas to be hardest hit by the hurricane, and all we had was Brownie's comedy of errors while he worried about where to have dinner?

Manedwolf
December 5, 2005, 11:17 AM
Week #1: "I have a gun, a lot of ammo, and some food. I'll be OK."
Week #2: "I have a gun, a little less ammo and no food. I think I
need to get some food...."
Week #3: "I have a gun, some ammo, I'm starving and I know how to get
some food."

That's quite true. There's responsible gun owners, and then there's the insane survivalist cults in say, Southern Utah.

That's the sort I worry about, the sorts who will go "I have a gun, but I don't have any food. But the neighbors down the road have food, I will take theirs with my gun."

That's what looters think, too. That's why I have my own, to defend against THAT sort.

NineseveN
December 5, 2005, 12:23 PM
That's nice if you have the money to spend on preparedness supplies, to renew your stock every few years, etc, etc...

A lot of people don't. And that's just reality. And they're GOOD people. Hardworking people who might not have made it through school, but they'd been working hard at factories for 20 years, got laid off, and are barely squeaking by, working two or more crap jobs to feed their family.

There's a LOT of those. And they're your fellow Americans. What you're doing is showing that you've absorbed the administration's new ethos that everyone is on their own, needs to be self-sufficient, etc...for some part, that's true, but NOT when help is needed in a major diaster and people with no money and no car ended up trapped and desparate. Then, the government is supposed to be the rescuer and provider. That's what first-world nations do.

Isn't it a little sad that even dirt-poor-population Cuba managed to better organize busing-out of their poorest residents from areas to be hardest hit by the hurricane, and all we had was Brownie's comedy of errors while he worried about where to have dinner?

Oh yeah, beacuase Katrina came so suddenly, without warning, and no one had any time to prepare or evacuate...good point.

BenW
December 5, 2005, 12:41 PM
A lot of people don't. And that's just reality. And they're GOOD people. Hardworking people who might not have made it through school, but they'd been working hard at factories for 20 years, got laid off, and are barely squeaking by, working two or more crap jobs to feed their family.

As I mentioned in another thread, I saw a lot of satellite dishes on buildings in the "poor" part of New Orleans. A month without sat/cable service would easily give a family of four the bare necessities to wait out a 72 hour timeframe for help to arrive. I can buy a 12 pack of soup for $6 at Costco. Going a few months without basic cable and putting that money towards disaster supplies, a family of four could wait for govt help in relative comfort for a good week.

wingnutx
December 5, 2005, 12:52 PM
You can get food-grade jerry cans at Pep Boys for fairly cheap. 5 or 10 gallons iirc.

gunsmith
December 6, 2005, 09:55 PM
I just stumbled on this thread, good read so far.
I personally love shtf threads, little by little I plan to be ready for it hitting.
s hitting the fan has happened to me a few times all ready, my friend thought I was crazy when I was going over escape plans for fires in the 5 story walk up I & he lived in...the building burned down when he wasn't home, I didn't get to save any of my stuff...why?...because I liked his dog & I broke into his house & saved it.

In san francisco my neighbor wanted to know "why I need a gun" I told her that I don't have enough food & water for after the next big earthquake so I will be taking it from my un- armed neighbors:neener:

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