Shooting from a weakhanded corner...

[krept]

I'm having a hard time phrasing this question. Let's say that you have to shoot target X from hard cover with a pistol... either indoor or outdoor.

The nature of the cover is such that you can switch to your weak hand with the maximum cover, or you can use your strong hand to engage, but expose more of yourself in the process.

If target is @ 15 yards or so... which would you do? Keep in strong hand and expose a little more, but probably be a little more accurate and fast? Or switch to weak hand but stay under more cover?

I'm not sure if this has been covered before, but I've never had a class regarding such tactics. Anyone know what the pros teach? I know that there is some emphasis on weak handed shooting, but I'm not sure if this is only from the standpoint that your strong hand could become wounded, or to cover scenarios like this.

Would it make any difference in same scenario with a longarm?

Thanks.

[Erick Gelhaus]

My take on it, and possibly mine alone, is that you need to get the hit(s) on the Goblin and end the fight.

Most of us do not get in enough trigger time with our "strong" hand, let alone enough with our off side. In spite of the repeated calls for such practice.

I'll probably stay in my normal "strong side" position and roll out as little as possible - accepting that I'm giving up a bit more of myself - to try and get the hit(s).

Erick

[C.R.Sam]

I practice and teach either handed...
And either eyed.

If using right hand from left side of barricade, can still minimize exposure by usin left eye.

For most folks who practice good sight picture, doesn't matter which eye they use. Especially if the otherj eye can't see the target.

Sam

[Jeff White]

There are a couple of ways of dealing with the problem depending on the exact situation. If there is enough room, you could back farther away from the cover and engage without exposing as much of yourself. Or you could quickly bend at the waist and expose just your upper body for a second and take a quick shot. This is best done if you have a good idea exactly where the threat is.

Jeff

[sm]

I need some clarification.
I'm right handed, right eye dominant.
I shoot with both eyes open. In practicing weak handed I slightly "cant" the gun--turning left hand /wrist clockwise.
In private instructions--when strong hand has been "disabled" I step back from cover( to lesson exposure to BG target), 'cant' and shoot.
I'm I needing to differ this? Close one eye? Or did I miss something and need to heed instruction. I'll always need to learn-always.

[Rob Pincus]

My suggestion is to practice a couple different options, see which feels best and then train to respond that way.

My personal preference for pistol is to roll-out stronghanded. Longer range shots with a rifle would be a different story.. one of the reasons I'm swithing to single point slings which allow easier transitions to off-hand for just these situations. I find it a lot easier to be accurate offhand with my AR than with any pistol.

[Blackhawk]

Tough call.

That close, and any part of you makes a good target, so I'd opt for (1) better cover, (2) escape, or (3) weak hand shot.

But I have to wonder -- if the BG is only 15 yards away and knows where you are hidden, what makes you think he isn't disappearing or just about to stick his gun around the corner and blast you?

All in all, about all you an expect from your weak handed shots is supression, but they're still YOUR bullets flying around who-knows-where.

[Erik]

I either switch or take the corner in a rather dynamic fation, depending on the circumsatnces at hand.

Both have there strengths and weaknesses. I'm not sure which I truelly prefer.

[Navy joe]

Assuming that the target simulates someone that needs shooting at 15 yds. I would say shoot as you are already holding the gun. I watch lots of hand transfers, it takes time, he may be a lot closer when you peek around the weak side. If he's an ordinary hoodlum he has just negated your skill advantage by closing the distance. If he's good, you really got problems and may see more than one gun peeking around the cover. Time to set up? Then it's probably not a defensive shooting, but for the purposes of arguement I would go the most cover route assuming I did not have enough time to find new or modify existing cover.

[George Hill]

Handgun or Longarm?

If it's a longarm and keeping cover is critical... switch shoulders.

[Fed168]

Stay within your limitations. It may mean slicing the pie a bit more, or if you are comfortable, switch hands. This came up while training recruits the other day, and that was their answer.
It pays to be amphibious.

[krept]

For you guys that would seek other cover... would you seek it specifically for a strong hand position or something else? The reason I ask is because some options are

- better position in general (elevation, control a fatal funnel, harder cover, etc)
- attempt to escape
- etc.

I guess my question is either with longarm or handgun and you start to pie (from inside out, as in you want to escape/defend a room etc. as opposed to an offensive room clearing) to check for threats on the outside. Or say that you have got yourself into a corner (oops) and only have the strong handed side as cover (either extend or change hands?).

Thanks for the answers, I've been wanting to ask this for a while.

[trapshooter]

I think you do the thing that will get you hits on target. That said, Sam's answer is best. Try to work in some weak hand/weak eye practice. Who's to say the good side will be there when you need it? If you're smart enough to see the need...

[fastbolt]

This is an excellent question.

There's just about an even number of left hand & right hand corners in the world around us ...

We actually considered this issue on our range earlier this year, as part of a qualification scenario. Aside from the other skills to be demonstrated, we wanted to give our folks the opportunity to address a target while utilizing cover around both "sides" of a corner, or doorway. We weren't as interested in teaching any specific techniques, as much as we wanted to let our folks discover what was involved in shooting from both their "strong" & "weak" sides in this situation, and let them experience how their existing skills could be used to best effect.

To focus as much as possible on body positioning, balance and cover location awareness during movement-to-cover ... we also required that the shooters remain back from the actual "corners", as an "alternate" use of cover they should always consider if the circumstances indicate, or allow, for it ... No using the cover as a brace for this situation ...

We discovered that for most shooters it didn't matter which hand was considered dominant when a 2-handed hold was used around the "weak" side corner, in regard to how effectively they were able to utilize cover. As long as the 2 hands were joined on the pistol, and the sights were used, the same approximate amount of upper torso exposure was presented to incoming fire. There was a slight variance when you considered eye dominance issues, but we allowed the individuals to test this for themselves during the course of fire. Their goal was to minimize their exposure, and we encouraged opportunities for them to change their approach and execution, as we required more than a single successful completion of this particlar scenario.

Also, there were some slight differences in "exposure" noted among different 2-handed shooting "techniques" favored among all of the different shooters, but not enough to consistently give any particular technique a significant advantage over another, when considered among the many shooter's execution of the various techniques.

Body positioning and balance created more potential exposure issues than the different 2-handed shooting styles. This surprised many of the shooters. They simply hadn't expected their favored balance and body positioning to affect their changing from their "strong" side to their "weak" side. We were able to more easily increase the overall effectiveness of cover use by suggesting changes with body position and balance ...

Canting the pistol was allowed, as long as the individuals remembered to clear the muzzle around the "cover", as well as clearing the sights ... More than a few shooters were surprised by how close their muzzles came to being obstructed by the "barrier cover", which we created out of target boards, expecting some holes now and again. Some needed to cant, and some had no problem utilizing a regular vertical orientation while leaning around the cover ... Body types and physical shape came into play here ...

A few of them were truly ambidextrous, and used this ability to address the different sides.

For the most part, however, the majority of the shooters prefered to keep their weapons in their "strong" hands when moving to address the target from behind cover, on their "weak" side ... The fact that we created a target which had to be addressed in a very specific manner also served to divert their attention during the scenario, and make them "multi-task" a little more than they had expected. This also created just enough unexpected and additional minimal "stress" that they found keeping their weapons in their "strong" hand was a definite advantage, compared to adding the additional task of switching their weapon to their "weak" hand. Accuracy was still a very obvious requirement, when all was said and done.

We wanted to give our folks the opportunity to consider how they could apply, and hopefully even easily improve, their existing skills in this situation ... and yet do so in a way that gave them confidence that they could immediately perform upon demand ... After all, many of them were going right back out on the street, and we wanted them leaving there confident in their ability to use their skills to meet similar circumstances ... even if they'd never considered it before that day.

It serves no purpose to create a situation where someone's confidence is shaken, and they lose faith in their own abilities ... especially when their lives may depend on their abilities, and their confidence in effectively using those abilities ... right?

Naturally, we learned as much from our shooters as they learned from us ... probably more ...

[Chugach]

:eek:

Great discussion!

I'm pretty much either-handed when actually firing...clumsier with left in operating controls other than trigger. Fixing that is a matter of lots and lots of practice.

C.R.Sam's comments have me thinking about eye dominance. I'm left eye dominant, and if shooting right-handed around the right edge of a barrier, I'd be exposing a bit more of the ole noggin' than I'd want. Switching to using my right eye should be possible because the barricade would serve as an "eye patch" for my left eye, even though my left eye is strongly dominant.

I gotta try this...

[fastbolt]

The eye dominance issue is often ignored until an unusual situation occurs. After the Quell Shooting Technique (left eye/right brain) faded, I still practiced using the non-dominant eye for many shooting situations, if only to remain practiced at switching eyes ...

Anybody here NOT ever have at least a hot case somehow manage to land inside your shooting glasses at least once? I always considered it possible to suffer a minor, but potentially fatally distracting, injury to my unguarded eyes when having to shoot in a real situation ... so practiced early on to be able to switch eyes.

Something we noticed about the eye dominance issue as it related to our cover scenario, though, was that even the shooters who chose to close one eye for aiming identified their target with both eyes before aiming and shooting. The desire to acquire the target with binocular vision is a very strong urge in most folks ... probably goes back to why we have our eyes located in our heads as we do, as "predatory" mammals do, so to speak ...

The ability to take a quick peek with both eyes, which allows for better depth perception and distance judgment, and then use the cover so that the less dominant eye is back behind cover ... seemed to be something that didn't occur all that often. And, of course, those shooters that always use both eyes open simplay used cover in a manner which allowed their continued use of both eyes.

The use of the non-dominant, single eye for target acquisition and shooting in a cover situation would seem to require the same deliberate, specificity in training as the original Quell Technique did ... and it's an interesting idea to revisit about 30 years later ...

[Chugach]

Plenty to think about. fastbolt, I think the urge to keep both eyes open and retain depth perception and peripheral vision is extremely strong.

Practice with either eye and without glasses makes perfect sense.

Y'all have inspired me to go set up some barricades and experiment...

[krept]

I agree, LOTS to think about. Thanks again.

[fastbolt]

Chugach,

Uh ... I didn't mean that I practiced without glasses. Ever. I only meant that after catching a couple of hot cases thrown back and down into my shooting glasses ... and having seen it happen to some other shooters ... it made me wonder how I'd react if my dominant eye ever suffered an unexpected injury during a real shooting situation. Unless I was wearing my sunglasses, I'd most likely be caught without eye protection during the normal course of my duties.

Aside from experimenting with the interesting perceptual differences that sometimes occur when using the right eye/left brain versus left eye/right brain information filtering, I hoped to at least be able to close my strong eye and squint while using my left eye, if I ever suffered a right eye injury in "real life" ... ;)

I suspect you're right about the almost overriding urge to focus strongly on the perceived threat with both eyes. After thinking about it, I realized the only time I deliberately aim with one eye anymore is when I'm focusing on a small target out at 15 yards and beyond. I have to force myself to close my nondominant eye at closer distances ...

Enjoy experimenting with cover use, but please remember to wear eye protection at all times ...

[Shawn Dodson]

On a weak-side corner I normally use a two-handed grip, strong hand as the firing hand and weak hand as the support hand. I roll the gun 90 degrees and "aim" down the side of the slide.

I use the same technique with long guns, except I "aim" down the side of the barrel.

The technique is natural and requires very little mental output to accomplish effectively, at least it is for me.

I use my weak hand as firing hand only when my strong hand is physically unavailable.

[Jim March]

Great thread.

I actually have "issues to think about" when doing an "Israeli Sweep" from hard cover to EITHER side.

I'm seriously right handed, moderately left eyed, and normally shoot from a Weaver grip, gun cocked slightly left, shooting with the left eye but both open (been working on that latter).

I believe that one should poke a gun barrel and one eyeball around cover to fire, already "set up" to fire.

To shoot right barrier, I'm still in Weaver but with my left eye closed first, shooting right-eyed, gun straight vertical or cocked very slightly right..

To shoot left side barrier, I keep both eyes open and cock the gun a bit left "like normal", but roll completely out of Weaver into a one-hand, strong-hand "bladed bullseye" posture :). OK, recoil handling and shot-to-shot speed suffers a tad, but cover is still excellent.

But that's me. I'm not at all qualified to advise anybody else.

[Chugach]

Originally posted by fastbolt
Chugach,

Uh ... I didn't mean that I practiced without glasses. Ever.

fastbolt, I agree with you 100%! I simply wasn't clear...I meant prescription glasses. Since I can't rely on having them with me (may have been knocked off in a scuffle), I practice without them.

However,

I always wear safety glasses!

I had a teenage friend lose an eye to a ricochet airgun pellet, and I once picked brass splinters from a ruptured 6.5mm Carcano case out of my eyelid. Since then, I've been extremely disciplined about wearing eye protection.