HD shotguns vs HD rifle, benelli vs RRA

[david_the_greek]

New gun needed and I'm still deciding between a black gun and a shotgun. If i chose the shotgun does anyone have any experience with an 870 or a mossberg 500 compared to a benelli m3 super 90. I used to have the super 90 and i loved it but it's pretty darn expensive to buy those now adays. The gun would be a home/compound defense weapons. My rifle choice is pretty much narrowed down to a RRA tac entry. anyones opinions are appreciated

[P95Carry]

I have both an 870 Mag and a Mossy 500C - but to be honest, leaving aside the platform I would (personally) not ever have a rifle for HD - simply because of problems over stopping the darned rounds!

Shottie is the archetypal close range tool - with moderately acceptable range re over penetration - drywall etc. I guess only exception I'd make is if I lived alone in a remote place, such that rule #4 was a non-issue! :)

[pauli]

me, i'd go for a tried and true pump action shotgun for home defense every time. i can't speak for anybody else, but everywhere *i've* ever lived, if you need a rifle... it's no longer home defense.

(and when the cops show up to clean up the mess, i know which firearm i'd rather be seen holding)

[michael_aos]

I thought the current consensus was that a .223 rifle was superior to a shotgun in a typical HD scenario?

Mike

[DougW]

I have 16" AR carbines, but figure the M1 Super 90 Tactical is the HD weapon. I am in a rural housing development, which means the sheriff is 15 to 30 minutes away. A layered defense is the best for me. Starts with a Glock 19 with a Glock Weapon Light and 17 round mag. Then to the Benelli, AR, L1A1, as necessary. I keep the AR's loaded with a frangible ammo so over penetration is no problem. But, you must train!

If I could only had one, I would choose the shotgun, either the 870 or the 500. Both are excellant. Different platform than the Benelli. Both pumps are easier to operate and maintain, but the same skill level (practice) must be maintained. I sold my 870 Police to get the Benelli. I keep the Benelli loaded with Winchester Reduced Recoil 00 Buck, and the Winchester Ranger Tactical Slugs in reserve. (I also have an assortment of various full power loads, and different bird shot.) I recomend the reduced recoil loads highly. The TAP loads are also very good. They will not beat you to death shooting. I actually think the Benelli is my personal favorite long arm. I just with it had a 30 round magazine!:D

Employing a Carbine or a Shotgun totally depends on your tactical environment. And, are you going to use the equipment for other things, like hunting, 3 Gun Matches, etc.? Will the weapon be employed by others in the household? Can they operate it effectivly? The ultimate descision depends on your personal comfort and the environment you live in. Good luck with your descision.

[ny32182]

I have a VEPR K and an LMT carbine with loaded mags inserted locked in the safe "just in case", but honestly I wouldn't really feel good reaching for either given the layout of my neighborhood. People say that XM-193 won't go through much drywall, but I've personally watched it punch *clean* holes in padlocks, both sides of propane tanks, steel plating, etc... also after reading the box-of-truth writeup where it penetrated like 9 layers of drywall and a brick before blowing apart a gallon jug of water... I just don't have any confidence in the non-brick construction around here to stop a rifle round. I doubt the Brown Bear SP in the VEPR would be slowed down much either. So, I don't think I'd be reaching for a rifle outside of a NOLA/major riot situation.

I'd like to use my 870 loaded with 00buck, and probably will one day, but right now I just don't feel like I have enough experience with the platform.

That leaves a pistol, which I am very comfortable with, compete with in IDPA, etc. Also, I don't mind leaving a round chambered in the pistol, so I can deploy it in silence if need be.

[Dave McCracken]

Here's a couple of opinions, which are worth what you pay for them....

First, for any shotgun mission an 870 is hardly ever a bad choice. Same for the 500.

Second, one big advantage of the shotgun for HD is it's ability to transfer LOTS of energy into a target, and shot have less risk of overpenetration. Even the lowly 410 at ranges where the shot hasn't spread packs about the moxie of the old 41 mag Police load or 45 ACP hardball.

Nothing gives 100% effectiveness in one shot stops in the real world but the shotgun comes closest.

Handguns are for when you can't carry around a long arm. Even an IPSC champ will do better with a shotgun, provided he or she trains with it.

Rifles have limited use for HD, but we all should have some for Community Defense when it's time to militia things up in a major calamity.

Descending from pulpit.....

[Cosmoline]

Properly loaded, a rifle or carbine is perfectly fine for home defense. But if you don't want to mess around selecting the right bullet and load a shotgun is certainly the easier route and will definately get the job done.

[No_Brakes23]

I thought the current consensus was that a .223 rifle was superior to a shotgun in a typical HD scenario?

Mike

+1 The added capacity is nice as well. The carbine is a tad handier in an apt, and 30 rounds is a lot nicer than 7+1.

Both stay loaded in my house, though.

[mete]

The Federal 223 40 gr doesn't have much penetration, less than some handgun bullets in fact !

[Zach S]

I dont think overpenetration as as much of an issue as a lot of folks think. But still an issue to consider with anything, wether it be a scattergun, rifle, or pistol.

I have no preferance, but I'd be more likely to grab an AR since I get more rangetime with it than I do my mossberg.

[cslinger]

For HD ranges I think the shotty is superior. It just dumps so much energy on target and even though buck penetration is pretty significant it should lose velocity pretty quickly. Remeber this isn't a question of what is a good all around zombie/TSHTF gun this is a question regarding the effectiveness of a firearm at very close ranges. Inside my house I can't imagine any shots where the double ought would spread out to anything more then torso sized and more likely less. 9-12 .32 caliber projectiles slamming into a target at once is pretty much like a pretty good sized burst from a sub machine gun, only more accurate in my hands.

If I could only have one it would be a shotty. Most likely a Remington 870.

I have rifles as well though.

I am also in the camp that having any gun in the event of a break in will most likely do you fine. It is good to be overprepared but chances are a handgun or double barrled shotgun will at the very least run off your quarry. After working for 911 for a bit I can tell you that those folks who had a gun, any gun, usually ran off the intruder as soon as said intruder realized that he had apparently picked the wrong house. :D

[david_the_greek]

well I suppose the most the gun would be doing is shooting paper. .223 is cheaper than the certain people you find walking the streets of detroit at night (sorry i live there and they've offered so I had to say it). I have all the reloading tools so i suppose it isn't really a problem if I do get the shotgun. Plus the m3 is convertable from pump to auto which is a fun feature. I dunno I have thus far figured some HP or softpoints in the carbine would be best for the situation I'm in (bigger rooms and large corridors). Heck if i get a basic RRA then i could get a 500 too. I suppose they would get jealous of each other though....... Thanks for the info so far guys but all these choices are too much for me. maybe i'll just buy a ma duece and sit in the window for the deterent effect.

[Rupestris]

Buy a shotgun. Learn it. Know it. Live it.
If you ever need to use it and the DPD asks you to hand it over 'til they finish with their investigation, you can get another cheap to fill the viod.

BTW, what part of Detroit?

[Borachon]

and when the cops show up to clean up the mess, i know which firearm i'd rather be seen holding

I almost got in some trouble once when they showed up and I was armed.

When they show up, you'd be wise to not be holding ANYTHING. Unless you think that a threat is still ongoing, you'd be wise to retreat to a safe part of your house, or outside of your house, and place your weapon close by. Don't pick up any cell phones or other dark colored objects either. It's easy to mistake those.

[Marshall]

For HD? A shotgun for me anytime and everytime!

[TOADMAN]

Home defense - I take a 12 ga. shotgun over a rifle.
Urban self defense - AR-15 type rifle works better.

[dcloudy777@aol.com]

Man, Benellis are pretty pricey... the Beretta 1201 was the same gun for way less money... and I might know where you can get a pretty good deal on one set up for HD.... ;)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=119281

DanO

[TexasRifleman]

Use what you can practice with.

How many practice with their shotty and 00 buck loads at the range?

Shooting clay birds doesn't count.

I would prefer the shotgun as well, but practical matters, financial and range rules, mean that I can practice with the AR and not the shotgun.

So, the shotgun is in the closet, the AR is by the bed.

[silverlance]

costs me about 150 for 250 rounds of federal 00 tactical low recoil.

benelli m1s90.

expensive? yes. but practice is essential.. and there is no way i'm going to run about my house carrying my sks unless i plan to bayonet someone.
then again, i can't shoot mroe than 25 rounds in succession without lying down and groaning in pain...

for cheap practice i've ordered s&b 00 buck, 250 for 70 bucks. hopefully it'll turn out ok.

[RobT2K]

I keep the AR's loaded with a frangible ammo so over penetration is no problem.
That article on "the box of truth" also showed that frangible ammo would penetrate 4 sheets of drywall. It was just in 4 different pieces when it did. I still wouldn't trust it for use in apts/condos or if family members are in the next room.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

[ny32182]

Pretty much anything is going to penetrate 4 sheets of drywall. 4 sheets of drywall is nothing.

[david_the_greek]

well to rupestris, I'm currently a student at wayne so my residence changes between just outside detroit in the GP (breaks and stuff) to down on Mt. Elliot so i can be closer to school. with the gun i'd be going down on East Grand River right by belle Isle and the buildings down that away are giant. Now onto actual guns. For a AR I just had an offer from a freind for a preban colt lower with a new upper (A sporter A2 with r-4, a3 upper, basically made to look like an m4) with some spare parts a clip or two and some ammo for probably around 1200. oh yeah its a 1 in 7 twist. I could get a new production RRA tac entry for 875 or for 1100 with a surefire rail and gg&g flip ups and its a 1 in 9 twist. I dunno if i want to buy a used rifle but it is supposedely "colt quality" I really should just give someone my money so they can go out and make the choice for me:banghead:

[DougW]

RobT2K, to be more spacific, the "frangible" load I use is actually a sintered 50gr bullet that I have tested for over penitration. It turns to dust when impacting dry wall, and will not penetrate 2 layers. It dumps its power quickly, penetrating about 7 to 8 inches in ballistic gelatin. I can shoot a 3" group at 100 yards from the bench with this load. I keep the first 5 rounds in the mag with this, followed by 25 rounds of 55gr PMC. At close range it is devistating. Have not tested it for penetration through multi layers of clothing. It does hold together good for about the first 3 inches in the gelatin. Will not ricochet.

But, this rifle is not the first line of defence. Glock then shotgun in that order if necessary. And, I agree with you that I would not want to be shooting toward loved ones in an adjoining room even with a pellet gun. But, here in the boonies, having a rifle ready is not been a bad idea lately (ferrul dog problem). Your mileage will vary.

david, you could build your own rifle much cheeper than $1200. JMO.