How to "turn in a gun"?


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twoblink
April 2, 2003, 10:34 PM
Friend of a friend asked me this; and I didn't really know how to reply, and so I thought I'd ask.

He wanted to turn in a gun but didn't know how to do it without getting arrested. (Oh the irony of the predicament of someone trying to comply with the laws)

First, the gun (to me) seems to be quite dangerous. Saw'ed of shotgun. I'm talking like maybe a 6" barrel left on the thing. He sawwed it himself. So please don't even bother asking about the legality of it (in the PRK).

So now that he's turned to being on the up and up; he'd like to turn this gun in; as this is the only "illegal" gun he's got in the collection.

So how do you turn this gun in, without getting XXX'ed by the cops?

I figure THR would have some interesting answers..

I'll tell you what he has done so far, that seems like a decent idea.

He buried it in the ground somewhere; and called the anonymous phone tip line of his local police station. He asked if he reported a gun found "somewhere" buried, would the officer "close the case" on the gun after the found the gun..

They replied that they would have to do a ballistics test on it, so they can find out if it's a gun used in any reported crimes, but if it came back clean; they MIGHT just close it. So he asked me if this was the way to go..

Ok, smart people, give me some feedback.

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Yohan
April 2, 2003, 10:38 PM
He could wrap it with about 10 rolls of duct tape, and then put it in a duffel bag, seal with more duct tape, and throw it away. Would the workers be willing to unwind all that duct tape? :cool: What I'm trying to say is, why doesn't he just disable the gun so no one can use it, and throw it away? Seems like the logical thing to do. He could disassemble the thing and throw it away part by part.

rhedley
April 2, 2003, 10:43 PM
Take the barrel off, destroy it. Keep the remaining part, then start looking for a standard long barrel. It is not illegal to have a barrelless receiver. The barrel is the only *bad* thing to have

This is not a good place to talk about this..

Devonai
April 2, 2003, 10:48 PM
I agree with Rhedley. If the weapon can be made legal, then do it. Otherwise render it inoperable and look for a nice deep body of water.

El Tejon
April 2, 2003, 10:51 PM
Boy, two, never seen that!:D

KarlG
April 2, 2003, 10:51 PM
I second Rhedley's idea. That is what I was thinking as I started reading.

As I read farther, it occurred to me he could combine Rhedley's idea with Yohan's. He could extend the barrel with toilet paper rolls and use the ten roles of duct tape to strengthen the new barrel.

Standing Wolf
April 2, 2003, 10:52 PM
Have your friend remove the barrel, drop it in a trash container behind a business, and buy a replacement barrel—and avoid activities in the future that result in a guilty conscience.

rhedley
April 2, 2003, 10:55 PM
KarlG

All right, then it could be called your "HOMELAND SECURITY GUN":)

samualt
April 2, 2003, 11:20 PM
twoblink:
rhedley is right. Remove the barrel and keep the rest.
There is nothing illegal about destroying a barrel. Just cut it a couple more times to make it un-useable and throw it away.

Then, chant:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me."...Dune.

:D

SquirrelNuts
April 2, 2003, 11:29 PM
I would think it would be best not to get the authorities involved. Remove the barrel and either destroy it or get rid of it. Maybe fill it with lead first. Buy a new barrel and you still have the gun.

-SquirrelNuts

Kristofer
April 3, 2003, 01:20 AM
Definitely replacing the barrel would be the way to go. Hypothetically, whats the legality of keeping the shortened barrel? Removed from the reciever of course.

MAKOwner
April 3, 2003, 02:30 AM
If they find the gun will they not run the serial numbers or something and track it back to him, and then wonder how it got to be out there in the ground with a sawed off barrel? Then they'll wonder why he didn't report it stolen, etc? I'd probably try to torch cut the reciever or something to render it inoperable and throw it away.

Kahr carrier
April 3, 2003, 03:55 AM
Just toss the barrel like the other posters said.:)

Triad
April 3, 2003, 04:09 AM
I would remove the barrel and destroy it, then find a legal replacement and keep the gun. If he does anything else it could come back to haunt him.

Feanaro
April 3, 2003, 04:50 AM
I pretty much second getting rid of the barrel and keeping the stock and such. Dissolve in acid, throw it in a bayou or whatever is his preference but give it a good finger print wiping, just in case.

Or grease it up, stick it in a box and find a spot in the woods. Never know. ;)

JohnBT
April 3, 2003, 08:49 AM
All the sawed-offs I've ever seen in the movies had the stock cut off at the pistol grip. I guess he could toss everything but the receiver and then look for a new stock and barrel, but turning the whole thing in might be the right thing to do if he's turned over a new leaf so to speak.

A new 870 Express isn't but a couple of hundred bucks or so.

John

Edward429451
April 3, 2003, 09:07 AM
Toss it or rebuild it. Why bolster a cops arrest record? Generally speaking, they are not your friend. Even if the cop wanted to be cool about it, the word may come down from above to charge him anyway.

'Ooohh, we got a terrorist gun off the street... :banghead:

ahenry
April 3, 2003, 09:49 AM
Or he could be a man and rectify whatever wrong he's done.

RustyHammer
April 3, 2003, 09:59 AM
... WHAT THEY SAID. Toss barrel, keep rest.

coonan357
April 3, 2003, 10:11 AM
I would take the barrel off the reciever and torch cut the length of the barrels thus destroying it Remove 1/4 of the diameter or cut the barrel/s in half lengthwise so it cannot be put back together again dispose of these at 2 seperate facilities so they can not be reassembled as long as its not part of the reciever (which contains the serial number ) you should be ok .and procure a new barrel assy . or turn the reciever in when they have a buyback program . and tell them you can't find the barrel assy .

TallPine
April 3, 2003, 10:28 AM
Couldn't you just hammer the shotgun barrel flat? They're not very thick walled like rifle barrels.

Guntalk
April 3, 2003, 10:49 AM
Remember those words. The "authorities" will not be happy that this person is being cooperative. They will be happy that they can arrest him and put him in jail for years.

It's only a pipe, but under the law, it's a felony pipe.

Some of the recommendations here are worth considering.

twoblink
April 3, 2003, 10:51 AM
Fairly old shotgun; a side by side; I don't think you can toss the barrel..

Hmmm...

OK, here's what he did..

First, found a friend in the "automotive industry" who has his own garage..

The gun got an acid bath...

Second, it was wrapped up, and dumped in a trashcan.

The authorities were called, informing them that there was "something" in the trashcan, and it was wrapped in a newspaper.

On the newspaper, was scribbled something like "Please mark this trashcan white if you will not continue the investigation."

Surprisingly, next day, the trashcan was sprayed with a few white dots...

So I assume all is over with...

45R
April 3, 2003, 12:04 PM
:uhoh: Could have turned it into an FFL and had the reciever destroyed.

spacemanspiff
April 3, 2003, 12:13 PM
you know, i dont see how this was such a tough question. without the barrel, isnt it a moot point? there are a thousand places you could find to dump the barrel and no one would be the wiser.

Don Gwinn
April 3, 2003, 12:45 PM
I agree. Remove barrel, smash with hammer, cut with torch or saw, fill with cement, or otherwise rendet it a non-barrel, and he's legal again. There is no way for him to "turn it in" without risking arrest, as I understand it.

Musta been a cheapie for him to cut it off in the first place.

Gave it an acid bath and put it in a dead drop? Very Le Carre, but whatever. Sure seems like a lot of trouble to go to.

Ahenry, if the "wrong he has done" is owning a gun that is forbidden to peasantry, then destroying the gun would be the closest thing to "rectifying the wrong he has done," wouldn't it? You're surely not suggesting that the only way for him to remain a man is to accept a prison sentence because he owns a gun with a short barrel, are you?

Bonker
April 3, 2003, 12:55 PM
If it's an old gun and you couldn't find a new barrel then I would have found a Class 3 dealer to take the 5 dollar tax and get it registered. :)


Otherwise I'd toss the barrel and start looking for a new one at gun shows.


Or you could just do what we do around here. Get a muffler shop to weld inside the barrel where you'd normally put the shells to make it inoperable. Then you have a nice, legal wall hanger.

Coronach
April 3, 2003, 01:07 PM
:rolleyes:

Turn it in for $50 at the next gun buyback/amnesty whatever.

There is no need for drama.

Mike

synoptic
April 3, 2003, 01:07 PM
Looks like it is too late, but cali has a lot of small rivers and lakes and ponds, find one that stays pretty cloudy and unclear and doesn't dry out and toss the barrel in...

ahenry
April 3, 2003, 01:50 PM
Ahenry, if the "wrong he has done" is owning a gun that is forbidden to peasantry, then destroying the gun would be the closest thing to "rectifying the wrong he has done," wouldn't it? IF that was the only wrong, yes. Based on the comments twoblink made, I think its a fairly logical jump to assume that there was more to it than a simple “prohibited weapon”. Moreover, even if the sole illegal action was the short barrel, this is a perfect opportunity to take the issue to court. Precedent you know...



You're surely not suggesting that the only way for him to remain a man is to accept a prison sentence because he owns a gun with a short barrel, are you? Nope. I am suggesting that unless he is purposely seeking to subvert a law (for a reason like eliminating an immoral law) then I question whether he really has the character that I believe is essential to being “a man” (not a male of certain age, but a real man). Granted we all make mistakes growing up, just ask my parents. Part of being a man is recognizing those mistakes and taking responsibility for them.

spacemanspiff
April 3, 2003, 01:54 PM
how often do you have to feed that high horse? is it difficult to find a way off it seeing how the saddle is waaaaaaay up there?

:scrutiny:

ahenry
April 3, 2003, 02:06 PM
What high-horse? I never said I don't make mistakes (see above post). I never said I haven't tried to hide them either. I've never even tried to call myself a "real man". I try to be one, but whether I am or not is for somebody else to decide. Nevertheless, I do know what one is and remain perfectly capable of describing particular actions as less than honorable and lacking of character.

Feanaro
April 3, 2003, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure what your aim is henry. Are you saying he should turn it in? If so, that's a nice way to serve time for a simple mistake.

Coronach
April 3, 2003, 10:27 PM
No, its not a mistake. It was a deliberate breaking of a law. Yes, its a stupid law, but it was still deliberate. It was not a mistake.

I hear all the time how people "just made a mistake."

Yeah...you thought you were kicking down your own door. I gotcha. Lemme get those cuffs off of you...

Mike

Feanaro
April 3, 2003, 10:31 PM
mis·take
n.
An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness

: a wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention;

ahenry
April 3, 2003, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure what your aim is henry. Are you saying he should turn it in? If so, that's a nice way to serve time for a simple mistake. I’m saying he should choose to deliberately break the law and by so doing provide himself with an opportunity to change the law (civil disobedience), or he should own up to his mistake (which is it by either definition you provided) and deal with the consequences like a man instead of hiding like a mouse. Its a simple answer really, should he do the right thing or the easy thing? You’ve heard my recommendation. Whats yours?

Edward429451
April 3, 2003, 10:48 PM
Couldn't you just hammer the shotgun barrel flat? They're not very thick walled like rifle barrels.

You really think you could hammer a barrel flat while cold?

LOL. I think not.

Feanaro
April 3, 2003, 10:55 PM
My recommendation is to drop the barrel after an acid bath, if at all possible. It seems to fit his needs, he doesn't want to be arrested. I would not have sawed it off in the first place and if I had I would turn it in but that's ME.

12.7x99mm
April 4, 2003, 12:47 AM
take a boat ride in a deep area and dump the barrel or find a friend with welding equipment and melt it into a nice blob for a coffee table conversation piece or paper weight

Kestryll
April 4, 2003, 01:40 AM
You really think you could hammer a barrel flat while cold?

You let me set it on my anvil and whack it with my 4lb cross peen and I bet you I can make that barrel flat!
Cold or hot, the anvil doesn't care!:D

synoptic
April 4, 2003, 01:55 AM
Its a simple answer really, should he do the right thing or the easy thing?


An old co-worker of my dad's a while back suddenly found out copying software was illegal. He destroyed the copies and threw everything he had away. Should he instead have turned himself in to the authorities and risked prosecution?

Dumping the entire gun would be irresponsible, but destroying it sounds reasonable enough to me...How does this not seem like the right thing to do to you? What seems wrong about it? I am genuinely interested to know why you feel the way you do. Everyone keeps saying he needs to do the right thing, be a man, etc... Give some reasoning behind it, why does he need to turn it in to the police as opposed to destroying it? He has made the decision to be on the "up an up". He has taken the initiative to dispose of the gun. Sounds like a "real man" to me. What would be the point in getting arrested now, he has realized the error in his ways.

ahenry
April 4, 2003, 09:40 AM
Dumping the entire gun would be irresponsible, but destroying it sounds reasonable enough to me...How does this not seem like the right thing to do to you? Because there is much more going on than just the cut down barrel. As I said to Don, if that was the only thing and he wasn’t interested in trying to change the law through the court system then go ahead and destroy it, I wouldn't really fault him.


why does he need to turn it in to the police as opposed to destroying it? I already responded to this question, but I’ll do so again. The posts Twoblink made about this gentleman sets off red flags about whats going on. As I told Don, I could be misreading things, but it doesn’t appear that the only “judgment error” that occurred was a sawed off barrel when he was “young and dumb”. Based on that (admitted assumption and leap of logic), it appears that he is trying to hide other “judgment errors” he made when he was “young and dumb”. Hence the recommendation that he grow up act like a man and take whats coming to him. IF sawing down the barrel was the only mistake this guy had made then I wouldn’t really fault him for just destroying the gun. I personally have a little bit more positive view of the police and I (based on my exposure to cops here in TX) don’t think he would have to worry about taking it to them and telling them he made a mistake as a kid and wants to make it right. But I understand police in other places can be a lot different so whatever...

Edward429451
April 4, 2003, 11:08 AM
With all due respect, with regard to turning himself in, thats absurd. The guy wants to get legal and you speculate that he's probably guilty of more so should rise up to that...You sound like a prosecuter.

Some of us see a cool gun on a movie, and want to buy one. Maybe he watched MadMax and saw a cheap & easy way to get his SG that was so cool.

Any evidence of victimization of anyone? No. If the guy was out killing people with it or even robbing with it do you really think he'd be asking around about how to get legal with the gun?:rolleyes: Criminals dont think like that Mr prosecuter.

Any evidence of conscience? You bet, he's asking about the right way to do it. His conscience bugs him about it and he knows he might get in trouble if caught with it. This is not criminal mindset oaf. Its reasonable to believe that he cut it off and it sat in his home until the novelty wore off and clear thinking set in. So he asked about how to do it right, thats good man with a conscience mindset with no hint of criminality. Oh, he cut it down below JBT recognized legal length? Throw the book at him, right?:rolleyes: You'll make a fine JBT, better go apply right away. But do be sure and set a court date for yourself for all those times you sped a little, jaywalked, or did a rolling stop, cause you DO want to be a man about it, right? Pffft.:banghead:

4v50 Gary
April 4, 2003, 11:13 AM
Wait for a buyback that has no questions asked. That's at least $50 or some tickets.

Skip the duct tape routine. Duct tape will pick up fingerprints.

synoptic
April 4, 2003, 11:21 AM
Sorry ahenry, that wasn't necessarily a personal attack on you...I guess we are just looking into it differently. I read twoblink's post giving the shotgun owner the benefit of the doubt, that the worst he had done was cut the barrel too short, and now has decided to rectify the situation by getting rid of the gun in some form or fashion.

You seem to think there is more to it than merely a sawed off barrel. If this is the case I agree with you whole heartedly. I guess it just took me some time to realize we were looking at it with different perspectives.
Again, i apologize :o

TallPine
April 4, 2003, 11:35 AM
You really think you could hammer a barrel flat while cold?

Heck, I am an old country boy / shade tree mechanic / junk collector and I have ruined many a fine peice of pipe by using it as a prybar or as a tool extension.

I don't think a mere shotgun barrel could resist my vast experience at mutilating things ...

You just need a bigger hammer, that is all :D

(afterwards, you could restore it with some duct tape)

And the colder I am, the harder I would have to hammer just to warm myself up. ;)

twoblink
April 4, 2003, 11:53 AM
First, I don't think "doing time" for a piece of hardware that he was kind of scared to shoot was really worth it.

Second, I give him credit for trying to go straight.

Third, The problem is; you are all gun people; you might know that removal of the barrel makes the gun legal, but given the scare tactics in the PRK and ignorance of the law; he was definitely in a panic.

So don't be too hard on him.. The man is trying to go from the crooked road to the straight and narrow.

Edward429451
April 4, 2003, 12:03 PM
You just need a bigger hammer, that is all

Agree with that. Original poster implied it would be easy though, the way I read it. Perhaps they were looking at the muzzle edge of barrel for thickness and this SG is cut way back where thicker and reinforced.

It'd definitly be a workout at the least and may take all day even for an energetic country boy with a large sledge!

Couldn't he braze the chamber inoperable and make a table lamp out of it and be legal?

twoblink
April 4, 2003, 12:09 PM
One of the things I thought about telling him was, take it all apart, and auction off the internal parts as spare parts...

A big hammer... A nice sledgehammer would have done it I think..

of course, an acid bath in the nice battery acid bin probably gave it that nice (shiny) look that you can only get from acid errosion...

Russ
April 4, 2003, 12:28 PM
Take the wood off and dump the rest in the Pacific as far out as he can go. A deep lake would do also. Then he could burn the wood or saw it up until unrecognizable.

If he turns it in, he will likely be arrested. Will that make him feel better? I knew a guy who sawed off his shotgun barrel some 20+ or more years ago. He never did anything with it. He was just young and dumb. He didn't even know it was illegal. Would it help him to go to jail now?

All it would do is help the attorney representing him to clean him out. The rest of he gun collection will be confiscated.

Don Gwinn
April 4, 2003, 01:24 PM
As Kestryll points out, with a "real" hammer and an anvil it wouldn't take much effort. With a claw hammer on a wooden workbench, I suppose not. Metalsmiths tend to think everyone has a forge in the backyard.
I understand that everyone doesn't, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. :)

ahenry
April 4, 2003, 01:35 PM
The guy wants to get legal and you speculate that he's probably guilty of more so should rise up to that...You sound like a prosecuter. Nope, just not sympathetic to people that break the law and then want to hide it. Sorry, but thats the way I see it.

Any evidence of victimization of anyone? No. If the guy was out killing people with it or even robbing with it do you really think he'd be asking around about how to get legal with the gun? :rolleyes: Criminals dont think like that Mr prosecuter. He is not asking how to get legal, he is asking how to get rid of the gun without anybody trying to track it. Look carefully at every single post Twoblink has made about this. None of them have said he was “young and dumb” and now wants to rectify it. Look at the sequence of events here. He decides he wants to get rid of an illegal gun. So he calls the cops to see what they will do when they get it. After being told they would run ballistics test on it he decides to run it through an acid bath. Does that sound like somebody that made a mistake as a kid and now wants to make it right? It sounds like somebody that made quite a few mistakes with an illegal gun and doesn’t want the gun around anymore. Perhaps he really is trying to go legit, doesn’t change the fact that there appears to be a lot more going on than a simple sawed off barrel. Even if it is a simple sawed off barrel I would bet you good money that he could have called up the DA and tried to find out what would happen. Based on the information provided he hasn’t made one single solitary effort to try and do the right thing. He has made lots of effort to try and get rid of the gun and not let anybody (law enforcement wise) know it was his. Where is the “trying to go right” in that?


But do be sure and set a court date for yourself for all those times you sped a little, jaywalked, or did a rolling stop, cause you DO want to be a man about it, right? Why don’t you ask me how many times I have tried to get out of a ticket. Go ahead ask me. When I make a mistake (even when its an unintentional speeding mistake) I take the punishment for it. I don’t hide it. I don’t run from it. I don’t ask my friends if they know how to skirt the law.


BTW, what's up with the derogatory comments, oaf, “Mr. Prosecutor”, JBT? I don’t recall saying anything to you that warranted such comments. Way to be polite. :rolleyes:

ahenry
April 4, 2003, 01:48 PM
Sorry ahenry, that wasn't necessarily a personal attack on you...I guess we are just looking into it differently. I read twoblink's post giving the shotgun owner the benefit of the doubt, that the worst he had done was cut the barrel too short, and now has decided to rectify the situation by getting rid of the gun in some form or fashion. No offence taken at all. I think there are a lot of people taking this different than I did. Even so, assuming best case scenario (dumb kid sawed it off and now wants to do the right thing and get rid of it by giving it to the cops) why not suggest he try calling the police or the DA (the response he had to being told they'd run a ballistics test is a big hint to the situation...)? See if they really would do anything. See if he could take it in, tell what he did and get some relatively minor ticket. I’m no cop but I bet you real good money that if he came in nicely dressed (not looking like a punk) and talking politely they would be pretty dang understanding. Cops aren’t too interested in going after the good guys. Granted, I have never interacted with CA police so maybe they're different out there. Doubt it though.

Again, i apologize No need to apologize. You just asked for clarification of what my thinking was.

Edward429451
April 4, 2003, 02:21 PM
BTW, what's up with the derogatory comments, oaf, “Mr. Prosecutor”, JBT? I don’t recall saying anything to you that warranted such comments. Way to be polite.

Well, your 'leap of logic' sounded real illogical to me with the ring of 'everybody's guilty of something and when in doubt assume the worst and string em up'. That the man would have conscience enough to even ask about it implies a desire to do right or get right, regardless of prior criminal activity or mistakes and should be met with respect and consideration, in my mind. An attempt to correct and be lawful is respectable and should be encouraged rather than the 'OK but we get to scourge you first', which could have the detrimental effect of pushing him off the fence in the other direction.

Where's the humanity or compassion or sense of reasonableness in 'going by the book'? People who go by the book only, lose their common sense and this does raise my ire, specially before the coffee kicks in! I was not attacking you par se but rather your ideals which I feel is a little off track. I suppose my apology is in order if you felt offended, so I do apologize but it don't change my thinking and I still think you're off base in your thinking.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Have a nice day, sir.

ahenry
April 4, 2003, 03:20 PM
That the man would have conscience enough to even ask about it implies a desire to do right or get right How so? The question (as presented to us) had nothing to do with “doing right” but everything to do with getting rid of an illegal item without suffering any consequences for owning it. Big difference, no?

Where's the humanity or compassion or sense of reasonableness in 'going by the book'? Not necessarily anywhere. “Humanity” and “compassion” don’t necessarily have anything to do with my recommendation either. The question was what should he do. My answer has been repeated several times. If the question were “how should we treat this person” my answer would have been the polar opposite. If the question was actually a complaint about how this guy made a mistake as a kid and now faces potentially severe consequences for what was essentially a victimless crime (assuming the only crime was a sawed off barrel) then my response would have been just as sympathetic as you could imagine. However, none of those scenarios are what we have here.


People who go by the book only, lose their common sense and this does raise my ire, specially before the coffee kicks in! When (on rare occasions) I have been in a position of authority I am more than willing to be lenient with others. When I am not, my recommendations cannot be to skirt the law or blatantly break it (especially when it seems likely there is far more going on). The only proper recommendation can be to do what is right.


Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. I’m not judging him, I am stating what I think the proper course of action is to right the wrong that he did.

answerguy
April 4, 2003, 04:00 PM
They replied that they would have to do a ballistics test on it, so they can find out if it's a gun used in any reported crimes, but if it came back clean; they MIGHT just close it. So he asked me if this was the way to go..

A ballistics test on a shotgun? How does that work?

TallPine
April 4, 2003, 04:26 PM
A ballistics test on a shotgun? How does that work?

That's what I wanted to know.

Anyway, I think that rather than discussing this guy's motives, it would be much more fun to debate whether to use a 4 lb or 9 lb hammer to smash the barrel flat.

And what length of hammer handle to use, standard or magnum?



:D

Kestryll
April 4, 2003, 04:27 PM
A ballistics test on a shotgun? How does that work?


Well, first you strap it to a missle really really tight.......

Edward429451
April 4, 2003, 07:03 PM
How so? The question (as presented to us) had nothing to do with “doing right” but everything to do with getting rid of an illegal item without suffering any consequences for owning it. Big difference, no?

That was my leap of logic! :D The guy wants to do something with it. He cares enough to ask, to try. If he didn't care he'd just pitch it in the dumpster. This is worth workin with the guy. Maybe they wouldn't make him do time over it but they sure would set him up a payment plan and for what? Tryin to do the right thing after the fact? Pffft. Sometimes tryin to do the right thing is like panning for gold dust in sewer water. Paying the State isn't going to make anything right. Besides, if you want to get right down to it, theres no such thing as an illegal gun. Just a bunch of deception and intimidation.

Better start with at least a four foot handle and a ten pound head.

WonderNine
April 4, 2003, 07:52 PM
Simple! Destroy it!

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